NeoGAF

Tripon · (11-30-2013, 01:23 AM)

Originally Posted by TheYanger

A code is something that you have to go out of your way to enter into a game. There is a huge difference between a code and something that the game just throws at you and you have to actively AVOID not using. I'm with Mike on this subject too. Kids growing up too entitled to stupid shit, and you can't expect an 8 year old to understand that he will probably be more satisfied if he DOESN'T take the mega awesome leaf powerup.

The arguments about 'you don't have to use it' sound akin to being told you don't have to use abilities or equipment in an rpg or something. Yeah, people sometimes do these kinds of runs for fun, but it's a very small subset of the gaming populace, If you give players access to something and make them think it's totally cool that they do so, the vast majority will.

You have to die 5 times in order to activate it. And then it's a power up in an item box at the beginning of the stage. Actively avoid my foot, it's there, and you don't even have to touch it.

If anything, its a mocking gesture at the so called elite players like Mike that you suck enough to even activate it in the first place.

RionaaM · (11-30-2013, 01:29 AM)

Originally Posted by maharg

"A is like B except for really significant difference C."

The difference is one is part of the mechanics of the game (it's offered to you heuristically within the game) and the other is knowingly escaping the mechanics of the game. It's not optional unless there's incentive not to use it.

Both are completely optional. One is hidden and the other isn't, but I still stand by the fact that once you know the cheat codes, you can be as tempted to use them as with the
White Tanooki Suit. You then have to make a conscious effort not to cheat. Of course, it would be nice if the Mario games asked whether the player wants to activate the suit instead of making it appear automatically, but the idea is good in my opinion.

Besides, you of all people here should know that cheat codes can be tempting too, since you're sporting a cheat code as your tag :P

TheYanger · (11-30-2013, 01:32 AM)

Originally Posted by Tripon

You have to die 5 times in order to activate it. And then it's a power up in an item box at the beginning of the stage. Actively avoid my foot, it's there, and you don't even have to touch it.

If anything, its a mocking gesture at the so called elite players like Mike that you suck enough to even activate it in the first place.

"You don't even have to touch it" give me a break. You don't have to press the jump button either. The game basically does a song and dance and makes you feel powerful for failing.

Brashnir · (11-30-2013, 02:07 AM)

Originally Posted by Tripon

The Konami Code and infinite continues are bad design? The White Toonuki suit doesn't save you from falls or lava, and goes away once you die in MP mode.

The game is still about platforming, which the suit doesn't save you from. Its not as broken as the P wing is in the NSMB series.

Contra doesn't pop up a Konami Code powerup when you die a few times.

A cheat code which is entered outside the game is different than a powerup that it placed within the game.

Or in other words since people really don't seem to get it - using something outside the game to subvert the game is not the same as using something inside the game to subvert it.

Lothar · (11-30-2013, 02:31 AM)

Originally Posted by Tripon

Mike plays Super Mario 3D World by himself. Part 1 of a series of videos. He likes the game a lot, but lol, he admits he skipped the last couple of 3D Mario games. He's constantly surprised at all the series staples now, and doesn't realize that Cat Mario isn't a Cat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxMXACJFiGg

It's hard to take his opinion on a new Mario game too seriously since he didn't like Mario Galaxy. (The 15 minutes that he played of it)

Like the hat? · (11-30-2013, 02:38 AM)

Makes me think of people that are against open world games having a fast travel system. Let people play the game how they want to. Don't want to use the white tanooki suit? Stop being shitty at the game.

Tripon · (11-30-2013, 02:38 AM)

Originally Posted by Brashnir

Contra doesn't pop up a Konami Code powerup when you die a few times.

A cheat code which is entered outside the game is different than a powerup that it placed within the game.

Or in other words since people really don't seem to get it - using something outside the game to subvert the game is not the same as using something inside the game to subvert it.

How is the Konami code not in the game? Its the Konami code!

Brashnir · (11-30-2013, 02:40 AM)

Originally Posted by Tripon

How is the Konami code not in the game? Its the Konami code!

Does the game pop up an icon when you die telling you how to enter it? It is not a part of the game's internal design.

I don't see how this is difficult to understand.

TheYanger · (11-30-2013, 02:44 AM)

Originally Posted by Like the hat?

Makes me think of people that are against open world games having a fast travel system. Let people play the game how they want to. Don't want to use the white tanooki suit? Stop being shitty at the game.

It's the opposite that is the problem, people don't even understand that they need to or could improve when you shovel success down their throats. We're seeing the product of this thinking in all the off topic threads we've had about Gen Y entitlement causing issues in hiring or even getting into schools.

Tripon · (11-30-2013, 02:48 AM)

Originally Posted by Brashnir

Does the game pop up an icon when you die telling you how to enter it? It is not a part of the game's internal design.

I don't see how this is difficult to understand.

The Konami code was intentionally left in many games for Gamers to exploit. If it wasn't for the developers intent for at least some of the players to use it, they would have taken it out. It'll be one thing if you had to use a Game Genie or something similar to use the Konami Code, but you do not have to do that.

If anything, it spoke to how difficult the game was, it was akin to saying that the game was so hard, you had to cheat to beat the game.

And everyone knew about the fucking Konami code, there was little reason to put the code in a Item box like the white toonuki suit.

Brashnir · (11-30-2013, 02:51 AM)

Originally Posted by Tripon

The Konami code was intentionally left in many games for Gamers to exploit. If it wasn't for the developers intent for at least some of the players to use it, they would have taken it out. It'll be one thing if you had to use a Game Genie or something similar to use the Konami Code, but you do not have to do that.

If anything, it spoke to how difficult the game was, it was akin to saying that the game was so hard, you had to cheat to beat the game.

And everyone knew about the fucking Konami code, there was little reason to put the code in a Item box like the white toonuki suit.

Years down the line everyone knew about it, but not the first several games they put it in.

Further, in later games, putting in the code blew you up. It was an easter egg that was left there for players, but it was not ever part of the game's internal design. If it was, it would have worked on the arcade versions of the game, and it would have been deliberately surfaced. It wasn't part of the game design any more than console commands were a part of Quake's. Being included in the game's code doesn't make something a part of the game design.

SeventhSon · (11-30-2013, 03:11 AM)

Extra lives, continues, level select, invincibility codes in NES games were there for the developers to test the game. The Konami code may have become common knowledge, but it was still an 'Easter Egg' for the players, not part of the core game.

I generally agree with Mike on this, giving the player 'god mode' like that really spoils the game for any player in a way infinite continues or lives does not. I'd rather the player get infinite lives to keep trying a tough part, eventually overcoming it, to getting the ultimate power up that essentially 'unmakes' the game at the game-play level.

Man God · (11-30-2013, 03:15 AM)

The game punishes you for using the block though.

boutdown · (11-30-2013, 03:16 AM)

Originally Posted by Man God

The game punishes you for using the block though.

How?

Tripon · (11-30-2013, 03:17 AM)

Originally Posted by boutdown

How?

You don't actually beat the level. You'd have to finish it without the White toonuki suit in order to actually show the completion sign.

Like the hat? · (11-30-2013, 04:10 AM)

Originally Posted by TheYanger

It's the opposite that is the problem, people don't even understand that they need to or could improve when you shovel success down their throats. We're seeing the product of this thinking in all the off topic threads we've had about Gen Y entitlement causing issues in hiring or even getting into schools.

It's a video game, one marketed toward the whole family playing together. It lets little kids play further into a level with mommy and daddy.

maharg · (11-30-2013, 04:22 AM)

Originally Posted by Tripon

You don't actually beat the level. You'd have to finish it without the White toonuki suit in order to actually show the completion sign.

That makes it a bit better, I guess. I still think it's a self-defeating game design idea.

Originally Posted by RionaaM

Both are completely optional. One is hidden and the other isn't, but I still stand by the fact that once you know the cheat codes, you can be as tempted to use them as with the
White Tanooki Suit. You then have to make a conscious effort not to cheat. Of course, it would be nice if the Mario games asked whether the player wants to activate the suit instead of making it appear automatically, but the idea is good in my opinion.

Besides, you of all people here should know that cheat codes can be tempting too, since you're sporting a cheat code as your tag :P

Haha nice catch. That said, tag aside, I generally only started using cheat codes (or game genie) with a game when I knew I was done with it. If the game had thrown a cheat code at me every time I failed I think it would have made me very bored with the game very quickly.

Originally Posted by Tripon

You have to die 5 times in order to activate it. And then it's a power up in an item box at the beginning of the stage. Actively avoid my foot, it's there, and you don't even have to touch it.

If anything, its a mocking gesture at the so called elite players like Mike that you suck enough to even activate it in the first place.

I don't think the mocking thing is really the intent. Doesn't really seem like Nintendo's bag. I think they must mean it to be helpful -- probably as a practice mode? -- and not as a mean cruel joke.

Tripon · (11-30-2013, 04:39 AM)

Originally Posted by maharg

I don't think the mocking thing is really the intent. Doesn't really seem like Nintendo's bag. I think they must mean it to be helpful -- probably as a practice mode? -- and not as a mean cruel joke.

I don't know, the Luigi mode in NSMBU was pretty mocking. Die five times, and you can have AI Luigi literally finish the level for you as he dodges every single enemy, make every single jump, show you all the star coins, and as a topper, finish the level at the top of the flag poll.

That's straight up trolling from Nintendo's part.

Tinfoilhatsron · (12-02-2013, 08:49 PM)

Originally Posted by TheYanger

A code is something that you have to go out of your way to enter into a game. There is a huge difference between a code and something that the game just throws at you and you have to actively AVOID not using. I'm with Mike on this subject too. Kids growing up too entitled to stupid shit, and you can't expect an 8 year old to understand that he will probably be more satisfied if he DOESN'T take the mega awesome leaf powerup.

The arguments about 'you don't have to use it' sound akin to being told you don't have to use abilities or equipment in an rpg or something. Yeah, people sometimes do these kinds of runs for fun, but it's a very small subset of the gaming populace, If you give players access to something and make them think it's totally cool that they do so, the vast majority will.

The ultimate point is why the fuck do you care? It has absolutely no bearing on your own play. If you want to go hardcore then do so, otherwise it is a great tool for casuals. This is the reason why gamers aren't taken seriously, this 'elite' atitude.

TheYanger · (12-02-2013, 09:09 PM)

Originally Posted by Tinfoilhatsron

The ultimate point is why the fuck do you care? It has absolutely no bearing on your own play. If you want to go hardcore then do so, otherwise it is a great tool for casuals. This is the reason why gamers aren't taken seriously, this 'elite' atitude.

I care because I enjoy gaming as a medium and I do think it actively harms the market when games pander to the lowest common denominator? You can try to pass it off as elitist if you want, but I could give two shits if I'm better at a game than some kid in timbuktu, I do care that that kid might actually grow to enjoy gaming and help grow the industry though, and if he's growing it into a direction of instant gratification it's harmful to something I love. I could take it a step further and say it's feeding into the entitlement of the entire generation along with so many other things and is actually harmful to society as a whole. That's an extreme example obviously but it's something I could extrapolate out if you wanted.

maharg · (12-02-2013, 10:02 PM)

Originally Posted by Tinfoilhatsron

The ultimate point is why the fuck do you care? It has absolutely no bearing on your own play. If you want to go hardcore then do so, otherwise it is a great tool for casuals. This is the reason why gamers aren't taken seriously, this 'elite' atitude.

Yeah, what a strange forum to have a discussion about the quality of game mechanics. This is after all A VIDEO GAME FORUM ON THE INTERNET.

Zonic505 · (12-02-2013, 11:17 PM)

James & Mike Mondays - Atari (Part 4) Space Games

This is a long one, almost 34 minutes long.

alr1ght · (12-02-2013, 11:18 PM)

also, AVGN Adventures is $6.74 on steam.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/23774

Tinfoilhatsron · (12-03-2013, 12:32 AM)

Originally Posted by maharg

Yeah, what a strange forum to have a discussion about the quality of game mechanics. This is after all A VIDEO GAME FORUM ON THE INTERNET.

Let me clarify, I meant what does it mean to you if others need to use this game mechanic since casual gamers are still gamers. I still want to discuss it, I wonder what the other side is thinking. If my original post came off as agressive then I apologize.

Tinfoilhatsron · (12-03-2013, 12:34 AM)

Originally Posted by TheYanger

I care because I enjoy gaming as a medium and I do think it actively harms the market when games pander to the lowest common denominator? You can try to pass it off as elitist if you want, but I could give two shits if I'm better at a game than some kid in timbuktu, I do care that that kid might actually grow to enjoy gaming and help grow the industry though, and if he's growing it into a direction of instant gratification it's harmful to something I love. I could take it a step further and say it's feeding into the entitlement of the entire generation along with so many other things and is actually harmful to society as a whole. That's an extreme example obviously but it's something I could extrapolate out if you wanted.

Hmm, could you extrapolate?

TheYanger · (12-03-2013, 12:43 AM)

Originally Posted by Tinfoilhatsron

Hmm, could you extrapolate?

Sure. Ever see Wall-E? A future where everything is done for you so we devolve into a society of those who cannot even act for themselves. This to me is the equivilent of any sort of handout that discourages actual improvement in people. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to help players, but it doesn't do that. As much as someone said earlier that Luigi going through the level for you is insulting, I think it's the opposite: You don't feel any satisfaction from luigi, rightly so (you do with tanooki because you're still 'playing'. On the flipside, Luigi takes a situation that a player might not even understand how to accomplish, and shows them how to do it, giving them a goal to strive for and a leg up in understanding how to go about it. It's the difference between someone being unable to throw a football, and you SHOWING them how to throw a football before you give it back to them to try again, and you just giving them a magic football that throws a perfect spiral every time with no effort.

maharg · (12-03-2013, 01:18 AM)

Originally Posted by Tinfoilhatsron

Let me clarify, I meant what does it mean to you if others need to use this game mechanic since casual gamers are still gamers. I still want to discuss it, I wonder what the other side is thinking. If my original post came off as agressive then I apologize.

I don't think anyone really needs this mechanic. Casual or not. Part of playing a game is getting better at the challenges it faces you with by repetition. I can see a certain value to a ghost mode, but on every level I think this is a poor implementation of it.

I also think that it's silly to say "you can just not use it". It's there, the game presents it to you, it's silly not to use it. It is a part of the game and its mechanics and should be judged as such. It is part of how an average player will progress through the game.

I think it's worth noting that even the best mario player in the world probably died 5 consecutive times on at least one level of Mario 1. And we were, essentially, all casual gamers back then.

KefkaPalazzo · (12-03-2013, 01:22 AM)

AVGN games was great, even if it was shameless advertising.

Originally Posted by Zonic505

James & Mike Mondays - Atari (Part 4) Space Games

This is a long one, almost 34 minutes long.

I've been waiting for their next Atari installment! And 34 minutes...nice!

BatDan · (12-03-2013, 05:57 AM)

Top 10 Game Abuse scenes
http://cinemassacre.com/2013/12/01/t...ds-game-abuse/

Honorable Mention: Slicing then smashing the TMNT III VHS.

10. Whipping The Last Crusade (and accidentally breaking a lamp)
9. Blowing up Rambo with alcohol and a lighter
8. Throwing Rocky down the famous Philadelphia Museum of Art steps
7. Whipping Dark Castle while chaining it up.
6. Hitting Fester's Quest with an explosive toy train
5. Any time someone shits on a game. Including A Nightmare on Elm Street, The Wizard of Oz, the Atari Jaguar CD and Toxic Crusaders (with added vomit)
4. Drilling & Smashing Dick Tracy
3. Setting the 32X on fire with an arrow!
2. Smashing the Nintendo World Championships cartridges
1. Reading off the "Do not do this" warning on the back of Winter Games and doing exactly that, then setting it on fire.

Kagami · (12-03-2013, 08:24 AM)

Originally Posted by Zonic505

James & Mike Mondays - Atari (Part 4) Space Games

This is a long one, almost 34 minutes long.

This video is a lesson on reading the instructions for games that pre-date the in-game tutorial era.

A Black Falcon · 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Kagami

This video is a lesson on reading the instructions for games that pre-date the in-game tutorial era.

Yeah, it's really frustrating that instead of just looking up the instructions (remember, Atari Age has scanned manuals for just about every Atari game, easy to look manuals up for any loose carts you have), they just give up... stuff like Star Raiders, Starmaster, and Space Attack require reading the manual in order to understand how to play the game. That is not a problem or a flaw, just a fact -- which videos like that one ignore. Star Raiders requires the keypad controller too, of course, in addition to a joystick -- did they use it? I couldn't tell, but I doubt it. That's probably why they never found anything. As for Space Attack, it isn't that great, but it does make sense once you actually read up on how to play. And Starmaster requires using the switches/buttons on the system for some functions -- manual required to play! If you can't figure a game out at first glance, read the manual, or an FAQ if there is one for the game.

Also, if they'd looked it up online, they'd have found that some Activision games don't work on some 7800s. It's not known why this is, but a few Activision games are incompatible with most 7800s, for whatever reason; the controls don't work and the picture skips up. So no, Space Shuttle wasn't a PAL game, it was one of the incompatible titles. I have one too, Robot Tank -- it responds just like that one on my 7800. Since I don't have a working 2600, that's kind of annoying... oh well.

For the other games the video was good, though. The one they called best (other than Space Invaders) did look pretty interesting.

Zonic505 · (Yesterday, 01:37 AM)

Seems we missed a Top # video, as it's only on Cinemassacre's site, Top 5 Worse Gaming Accessories.

5.) Power Pad
4.) R.O.B
3.) Power Glove
2.) Laserscope
1.) Roll & Rocker

Kind of surprised that the Speedboard didn't make it.

maharg · (Yesterday, 04:21 AM)

Originally Posted by Kagami

This video is a lesson on reading the instructions for games that pre-date the in-game tutorial era.

This is why, to me, he got his name right in the first place with Angry Nintendo Nerd no matter how many other consoles he plays. He clearly grew up in the NES/SNES era and that's an integral part of his perspective.

Zing · (Yesterday, 03:33 PM)

I had to stop watching that Atari video when they loaded Stargate and were talking about the TV series instead of, you know, the arcade game Defender, of which Stargate is the sequel. I enjoy the videos where they seem to know what they are doing, but this was worse than those random YouTube rant videos. If James hadn't said he played Space Invaders as a kid, I would never believe he had played Atari at all.

nullset2 · (Yesterday, 03:44 PM)

The AVGN games episode was ok. It became as meta and self aware as when Arino played the Game Center CX DS game for the show.

Sorta unrelated: I find it amazing how James has such a humongous ego. He's dedicated to his characters to the utmost extent and blows them up bigtime as larger than life personas for no particular reason, even if they are, um, just him by the end of the day. Well, I guess that having a huge ego like that is what makes you have a successful career in the end.

Why does he always treat mike that badly, too? He always gets the short end of the stick and is shoved and bossed around in all cinemassacre productions. James doesn't even look him in the eye in the Mike and James play series. It doesn't even seem like he regards him as a friend or full-on collaborator at times ("Help by Mike" next to lines and lines of "Directed, Written, Starring... James Rolfe).

Grumble grumble movie when grumble.