• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

Status
Not open for further replies.

maharg

idspispopd
I'm scottish :p

Doesn't mean you can't do *anything*. ;)

Yeah, theirs are uniform regional swing. I don't think they have a dummy in their model for star candidates. So I'm not convinced that their models are all that great. But I actually suspect that a uniform swing model with a few common-sense dummies for, say, incumbent scandal; major riding-specific disruption; star challenger; incumbent promoted to cabinet; etc. would be pretty good at predicting even absent riding-specific polling. The most common interpretation of voting behaviour is that the bulk of the intent behind someone's vote in a parliamentary system is for the party they're voting for, rather than the person they're voting for, so we would expect models to still perform pretty well if they could account for most of the party-level factors. Uniform swing is still definitely the most powerful individual predictor.

On the substance of strategic voting, I'm of two minds. I agree that organized strategic voting is probably folly. I think, as with most vote aggregation issues in social choice theory, you can get contrived examples where it works and contrived examples where it doesn't. And I guess the risk with any kind of group behaviour thing is that if large numbers of people do vote strategically, then you get the unintended consequence of the "true" winner losing because all their supporters ditched them for a compromise candidate. There are risks like that polls will be reweighted each election depending on the degree to which results diverge from previous polls, so even the "answer the polling company sincerely, vote strategically" thing can backfire.

I've rarely voted strategically myself, although I can think of one case where I did. In 2004, my riding had no incumbent. The results were: CPC 39%; LPC 35%; NDP 23%. The exact same three candidates ran in the 2006 election. My general sense was that at the national level, the Liberals were likely to decline a bit, while the mood of my province seemed pretty neutral, so I expected about the same results in the race. The LPC candidate was one of those blue-liberal chamber of commerce types, so not normally the person I'd vote for personally. On the other hand, there was no reason to believe that the NDP would have a giant wave, so essentially if I were to have voted NDP, it'd be a losing vote. Not that there isn't a reason to do that occasionally, especially w/r/t the party subsidies from Elections Canada. But I expected that the race would be close, and so strategic voting on a personal level made sense to me. It turns out in the end that the CPC candidate got a few point bump (44-33-21), roughly in line with the national swing, and the candidate I voted for lost. Regardless, I don't think given the information I had that voting strategically was an "error". Of course, it's unusual that you have the exact same candidates running in an election two years apart with relatively little national movement and no local issues, so this is pretty non-generalizable to broader applicability.

Oooh I missed this part. You're in Alberta, right? I thought that the 1abvote initiative actually got some traction.

Yeah, I live in Alberta, where this sort of thing goes around all the time (and last election, the Liberals were literally using one of these organization's projections on their campaign flyers to get people to vote Liberal). I live in a riding that was Liberal during the collapse of the PC party, so in spite of the fact that for the last few elections the riding has been getting younger and the NDP vote has been rising and the Liberal vote in decline, you still get a lot of people in my riding thinking the Liberals are the ones to vote for. Maybe that'll change now, since the NDP candidate last time finally passed the Liberal candidate, though.

But I still expect to get Liberal door knockers coming and telling me I need to vote strategically for them (which is, frankly, one of the reasons I dislike that party now much more than I did ten years ago).

Really, the reason the NDP have a seat in Alberta right now has nothing to do with strategic voting and everything to do with the fact that they've had a committed and fantastic candidate in the right riding in Edmonton-Strathcona. People don't vote for her out of fear, they vote for her because she's awesome and she connects with her constituents.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
the NDP have worked with the Liberals in past minority government situations. (Pearson + Douglas = Canada Health Act) (Trudeau + Lewis = Petro Canada)

whether people elect NDP or Liberal MPs, both can and have historically been able to work together on some key issues.

But, a a Bloc MP takes away a potential seat from either Liberal or NDP = it helps the Conservatives. The Bloc is currently mostly competitive in NDP ridings exclussively

oddly enough, Jack Layton was responsible for bringing down minority Paul Martin then resulted propping up a 9 year Conservative regime.

Conservatives' new NDP attack ads: "Jack Layton, more conservative than you think"
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
I don't watch a lot of TV but I listen to the radio, and if the TV ads are anything like the radio ones I seriously need to get into political marketing as a career. Holy christ the Trudeau attack ads are terrible. They are cringingly bad. Quotes taken out of context, ridiculous assertions: YES he said he would send warm clothing to the middle east, JUST LIKE THE CURRENT GOV'T IS ALREADY DOING - that does not make sending winter jackets his plan to fight ISIS! Holy jumped up jesus that is a stupid assertion.

Terrible as they are, they work. You'd be surprised how many people buy into that sort of media. I mean, look at that Ignatieff slam campaign some years back (though, that was already contributing to a slew of problems for the Liberals then).

If it makes you feel better, here's my preferred version of the ad.
 
Trudeau already rejected a potential coalition government with the NDP :(

But hey, now the election is really under way... maybe minds will be changed due to various circumstances unforeseen before. I do wish for a coalition government between the two as well.

it's Mulcair's fault for wanting to abolish the Clarity Act and wanting the replace it with his Sherbrooke Declaration.

Liberals are the biggest defender of Canadian Unity. Unlike the Conservatives and NDP; the Liberals refuse to pander to separatists. Trudeaus and separatists don't mix
 
Not so sure. If it's anything like the GBP earlier this year, the market will price in a Conservative loss (or surprise win) accordingly.

between the weakening economy, oil prices remaining ridiculously low, and the continuing (if 0% likely) threat of the Fed finally tightening its policy, it's not really gonna matter who wins in October
 

SRG01

Member
Really, the reason the NDP have a seat in Alberta right now has nothing to do with strategic voting and everything to do with the fact that they've had a committed and fantastic candidate in the right riding in Edmonton-Strathcona. People don't vote for her out of fear, they vote for her because she's awesome and she connects with her constituents.

That's true too. Linda Duncan is amazing... makes me wonder why she didn't run to be the leader of the NDP.
 
Also PLEASE can we get a coalition Liberal/NDP (hell, add in Green, too)? The left vote being split has given us Conservative governments for more than a decade, even though they only receive like 30% of the popular vote :(

What we really need is proportional representation voting. I voted for first past the post the last time the question came up, and I still regret it. Proportional representation is the best way to establish minority coalitions.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Trudeau already rejected a potential coalition government with the NDP :(

But hey, now the election is really under way... maybe minds will be changed due to various circumstances unforeseen before. I do wish for a coalition government between the two as well.

It strikes me as a major error to answer the coalition question before the election. The proper answer is "It's an asinine hypothetical. We are running to win. Asking us how we'll play our role in a Parliament where we don't win is insulting. Canadians can be sure that government or opposition, the Liberal Party will fight for blah blah blah ordinary canadian values etc." That's not a commitment to say yes to a coalition or to any particular arrangement.

To me, ruling it out explicitly is basically like issuing an ultimatum daring soft Liberal supporters to vote strategically for the NDP. Seems like strictly a downside risk for them.

That being said, in a scenario where the Liberals don't gain many seats (or worse, lose seats), Trudeau could be tossed anyway. Then they'd be free of any prior commitment to join or not join a coalition.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Considering both Mulcair and Trudeau aren't really popular, it would make sense to make a coalition, but I don't expect that at all.
 

Savitar

Member
I want pretty much anyone BUT Harper to win but if he does it's half expected. Sadly we really lack a lot of leaders who have both great leadership and natural charisma to win over people.

That and a good solid party who will do what's right by the people.
 
What we really need is proportional representation voting. I voted for first past the post the last time the question came up, and I still regret it. Proportional representation is the best way to establish minority coalitions.

Honestly, unless the Conservatives win another majority, I think this may very well be the last election we have under FPTP. The NDP, Liberals and Green all support some form of voting-based electoral reform. If we get a Conservative Minority where those three parties overpower the Conservatives, I can see them working together to pass it. What we get would be up to who gets official opposition. If its NDP, I can see us going with their plan and if its the Liberals I can see us going with their plan.

I could be wrong, but at least that is how I see the topic of Electoral Reform going down.
 

RevoDS

Junior Member
I'd love to vote NDP as I did last election, but my #1 priority is contributing to ousting Harper. Given that I live in the Papineau riding which is Justin Trudeau's riding, I'm likely going to help him keep his seat and vote for him unless something drastic happens during the campaign.

Fingers crossed for a NDP government, though.

Honestly, unless the Conservatives win another majority, I think this may very well be the last election we have under FPTP. The NDP, Liberals and Green all support some form of voting-based electoral reform. If we get a Conservative Minority where those three parties overpower the Conservatives, I can see them working together to pass it. What we get would be up to who gets official opposition. If its NDP, I can see us going with their plan and if its the Liberals I can see us going with their plan.

I could be wrong, but at least that is how I see the topic of Electoral Reform going down.

The problem with electoral reform is that the current system favors whichever party forms the government at any given time. The Conservatives used to support reform as well before they started benefitting from FPTP, and once they did and had the power to change it, they stopped wanting to.

This is likely gonna happen regardless of the party who wins, which makes me skeptical of the chances a reform truly happens.
 

Dazzler

Member
Really wish I had a vote in this :(

Hopefully I'll be a citizen and eligible to vote by the time the next federal election comes around
 
I'd love to vote NDP as I did last election, but my #1 priority is contributing to ousting Harper. Given that I live in the Papineau riding which is Justin Trudeau's riding, I'm likely going to help him keep his seat and vote for him unless something drastic happens during the campaign.

Fingers crossed for a NDP government, though.



The problem with electoral reform is that the current system favors whichever party forms the government at any given time. The Conservatives used to support reform as well before they started benefitting from FPTP, and once they did and had the power to change it, they stopped wanting to.

This is likely gonna happen regardless of the party who wins, which makes me skeptical of the chances a reform truly happens.

True, very true. But something about it now seems different compared to when it was spoke of in the past.

If the NDP wins, I feel like they will enact it because they would know that this is their one chance. If they won, it would be their first ever government and they would want to fulfill every single promise they put out there to be able to tell the Canadian Populace they can be trusted.

If the Liberals win, I feel like they would do it just because they think they would be able to harm the Conservative party considering the polls in the last election only put them at ~1/3 the Votes of the total populace. Not to mention if they win, they would be given a chance to 'prove themselves' to the Canadian populace that they aren't the scandal-ridden party of a decade ago.

If the Conservatives win a Minority which they could be overpowered, it would be the perfect way for the other parties to deal a blow to the Conservatives for the next election, and be able to tackle their own issues of vote splitting which while it has always happened, is magnified due to their only being one major party to the right.

I don't know, It's wishful thinking, but I really think this could be it.
 
CLbl2FIUEAAx7Ei.jpg


ieIw6niHNfVIo.png


It begins.
 
CLbl2FIUEAAx7Ei.jpg


ieIw6niHNfVIo.png


It begins.

the irony is the Conservatives have squandered the surpluses left behind by the Liberal. The Cons ran big deficits and have spent lots money on pork projects for electoral purposes

Tax and Spend Liberals? LOL nobody has spent more on Pork projects than the Cons.
 

Crazylegs

Member
I've voted Conservative in the past, but not this time around. Between C-51 and their reliance on omnibus bills to short-circuit Parliament, I just cannot support CPC. I just cannot....

(I really hate omnibus bills).
 
http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/e...ncera-sa-campagne-au-quebec-a-ndg-ce-soir.php

Stephen Harper will launch his campaign in a Jewish community center in Montreal (he is trying to get the riding of Mount-Royal in TMR where he thinks the Jewish vote will back him)

Harper's hard-on for Israel is for ONE riding. He is dead set in trying to end a 22 year old drought on the Island of MTL.

It is sad that the Conservative playbook on foreign policy killed Canada's standing internationally just sohe can win a few votes locally among Ukrainian-Canadians and Jewish-Canadians.

Putin doesn't even take Canada seriously because Putin is the master of vote pandering and see an amateur vote panderer in Harper
 
Everyone vote for Trudeau. The objective is to expunge Harper from office. Put your political allegiances aside and let us all unite for the greater good of Canada.
 
Everyone vote for Trudeau. The objective is to expunge Harper from office. Put your political allegiances aside and let us all unite for the greater good of Canada.

I appreciate the positive advancements done under past Liberal Prime Ministers and i am grateful to Justin' father.

But the sad truth is that Liberals are in distant 3rd place in my riding while Bloc Head Gilles Duceppe decided to run again (2nd place) in my riding.

I have no choice but to vote NDP (1st place) to Block the Bloc.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Everyone vote for Trudeau. The objective is to expunge Harper from office. Put your political allegiances aside and let us all unite for the greater good of Canada.

If the objective is strategic voting, shouldn't people strategically vote for the opposition party that has more support, not the one that has less support?
 

Sakura

Member
Here's what I got:

I'll be voting Conservative again.

The NDP won't take part in any debates that ... include the Greens.

Really? Why is that?

I want to vote for the party who can do the following:

- Save Canadian businesses from U.S acquisition which are followed by shutdowns (r.i.p Futureshop, Zellers)
- End unemployment
- Make Canada great again
Those are rather difficult and vague. I don't think any party can do that stuff.
I mean, end unemployment?
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
Everyone vote for Trudeau. The objective is to expunge Harper from office. Put your political allegiances aside and let us all unite for the greater good of Canada.

I know a lot of people wanna oust Harper, but I realize that this kind of mentality should NOT run how a democracy works. People should vote whom they want to vote for their own reasons.
 
Those pictures in the OP are awesome.

I want to vote NDP but I might have to vote Liberal to block the Conservatives. Not completely sure since it's a new riding, with the rural portion cut off. I might get away with voting NDP.

Nothing good has come out of Harper. Terrible economy, massive deficits, crumbling infrastructure, cuts to healthcare, cost of living through the roof. Let's not forget Idle No More movement and the terrible damage to Canada's reputation under his watch. I absolutely cannot stand him.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Hopefully this ends with Harper out on his ass. Whether it be NDP or Liberals, we cannot survive another Conservative majority.
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
So anybody have any ideas for the new OT title of Canada Poligaf after this?

My suggestions for each win scenario:

NDP Win: Canada Poligaf |OT| Orange is the New Red
Liberal Win: Canada Poligaf |OT| Red Leaf Redemption /Trudeaumania Deux-point-Oh
CPC Win: Canada Poligaf |OT| Harperland Prevails
 
I appreciate the positive advancements done under past Liberal Prime Ministers and i am grateful to Justin' father.

But the sad truth is that Liberals are in distant 3rd place in my riding while Bloc Head Gilles Duceppe decided to run again (2nd place) in my riding.

I have no choice but to vote NDP (1st place) to Block the Bloc.

If the objective is strategic voting, shouldn't people strategically vote for the opposition party that has more support, not the one that has less support?

I had no idea the NPD were in front of the Liberals in the pollings.

I know a lot of people wanna oust Harper, but I realize that this kind of mentality should NOT run how a democracy works. People should vote whom they want to vote for their own reasons.

I very much agree, but sadly, we have a First Past The Post system here, which is a shitty form of democracy, and if we all voted for whom we wanted to see in power, we would again get in a situation where the conservatives get a majority government with a small percentage of the votes. The day we get the superior Two-Round or Instant-Runnoff systems, I will vote with my heart.
 

It's mind-boggling that the Conservatives are trying to run on their record as economic managers. Those numbers above actually understate Harper's disastrous tenure as PM: by one measure, it's the slowest economic growth since the Great Depression, and that's without even taking into account the fact we're almost certainly in a recession at the moment.

RE: strategic voting, I think one of Harper's more under-the-radar terrible moves was the way he got rid of the per-vote subsidy. With it in place, votes (at least for the main parties) were never truly wasted. Getting rid of it reduced the incentive to vote for a less popular party (i.e. non-CPC parties in rural Alberta, or the Conservatives in Newfoundland), which in turn made it so that parties didn't have as much incentive to try and get out their votes in weaker ridings.
 

Savitar

Member
So anybody have any ideas for the new OT title of Canada Poligaf after this?

My suggestions for each win scenario:

NDP Win: Canada Poligaf |OT| Orange is the New Red
Liberal Win: Canada Poligaf |OT| Red Leaf Redemption /Trudeaumania Deux-point-Oh
CPC Win: Canada Poligaf |OT| Harperland Prevails

If the PC's win it should be The Empire Strikes Back.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I heard Harper's been fucking up the economy real good. How does he fare in opinion polls so far?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
life long Liberal supporter here who voted NDP in the last two elections because they were they best chance at beating the Bloc locally in my riding, beating Gilles Duceppe himself.

in 2011, Gilles Duceppe was sent packing. Wooohooo, finally we can chose to vote betweeen, Left, Center or Right instead of Yes or NO

but Duceppe has returned and is trying to get his old riding back

I wanted to vote Liberal again out of principle but they are in 3rd place in my riding.

Alas, I will be voting NDP again to Block the Bloc and the save democracy from the farce the Bloc is

I want Justin Trudeau to become our next Prime Minister
I don't agree with Trudeau as PM, and I don't like the current-day Liberals at all, but I otherwise agree and will vote NDP for the same reason (to counter the Bloc) since I'm in the same riding.

Fucking Duceppe, man. If his presence gives the Bloc momentum and steals seats from the NDP and gives the election to Harper again I will be really, really mad. Hopefully it won't do shit and he'll resume being a laughing stock and go back to hiding in his angry dome. Hopefully...
 
I heard Harper's been fucking up the economy real good. How does he fare in opinion polls so far?

It's basically a three-way tie at the moment; some polls have the Conservatives in first, others have them in last. That said, his personal approval rating is lower than it's ever been, and people expressing the opinion that the government/country are headed in the wrong direction are at an all-time high for his tenure.

The underlying numbers for him aren't great, but he arguably has the most dedicated voters, as well as a massive financial advantage, and the Conservatives probably have the most sophisticated Get Out The Vote operation. All things considered, he's not in a great position, but it could be a lot worse for him.
 

Sakura

Member
I heard Harper's been fucking up the economy real good. How does he fare in opinion polls so far?

I believe this is the most recent
opiniont2ufu.jpg

In Canada I don't think opinion/approval of the PM is as big of a deal as in say the US, as people are more voting for parties than PM.
 
Mine:

Voted NDP before (even though a Liberal then a Con won my riding). Will do so again.

Let's split the left and ensure a Conservative minority everyone!

Problem is, people think that what you're saying means to vote Liberal when they are dead last in the polls. It makes a lot more sense to vote for the opposition if you want to oust the incumbent government.
 

SRG01

Member
I think it's unfair to blame lower corporate tax rates for the current state of the economy. Low oil prices tank the Canadian economy no matter what the tax rate is.

A couple of things:

1. I didn't say lower corporate taxes decreased economic activity, but rather that the corporate tax rate has little to no macroeconomic effect to the overall economy. The corporate tax rate was lowered in the hopes of making Canadian businesses more competitive/attractive/etc, with little to no effect.

2. The economy was already anemic prior to low oil prices. The economy was seeing growth of a few percents or lower, which is kind of laughable given how the incumbent government was intent on selling this as strong economic growth.

Having said all that, stimulating demand, especially within the middle class, is a surefire way to stimulate economic growth but no one wants to take a serious steps towards this for some reason.

Problem is, people think that what you're saying means to vote Liberal when they are dead last in the polls. It makes a lot more sense to vote for the opposition if you want to oust the incumbent government.

The Liberals dropped like a rock in the polls after C51 as well. That and a nice bump for the NDP after the Alberta NDP election.
 
Neat to contrast the opening press conferences from the four national party leaders.

Harper, in front of Rideau Hall:


Mulcair, in Ottawa:


(And as a sidenote, Harper took five questions at his press conference -- looking incredibly uncomfortable doing so -- but Mulcair just read his prepared statement and left, leading to this tweet from the CPC Communications Director:


Kind of hilarious/sad to see that Harper's people are able to criticize anyone for avoiding the media.)

Trudeau, with LPC candidates at Vancouver Pride:


May, with Greens in Vancouver:

 

mo60

Member
Neat to contrast the opening press conferences from the four national party leaders.

Harper, in front of Rideau Hall:



Mulcair, in Ottawa:



(And as a sidenote, Harper took five questions at his press conference -- looking incredibly uncomfortable doing so -- but Mulcair just read his prepared statement and left, leading to this tweet from the CPC Communications Director:



Kind of hilarious/sad to see that Harper's people are able to criticize anyone for avoiding the media.)

Trudeau, with LPC candidates at Vancouver Pride:



May, with Greens in Vancouver:

I think Mulcair was heading to someone's funeral so he literally had no time to answer questions. I think it's pointless to attack Mulcair for that yet. I find it ironic that the conservatives criticzed Mulcair for not answering questions to.
 
I think Mulcair was heading to someone's funeral so he literally had no time to answer questions. I think it's pointless to attack Mulcair for that yet. I find it ironic that the conservatives criticzed Mulcair for not answering questions to.

The funeral was less than a km away, and wasn't until three hours later.
 

SRG01

Member
Aw, matthewwhatever, you beat me to the punch. I was going to post links to each party's campaign kickoff :p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom