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How Is MGSV's Story Surprising or Stupid? (Warning: Spoilers)

Chichikov

Member
If you don't understand Postcolonial theory then you won't 'get' this game. Same with MGS2 and postmodernism. It's simple. Look it up. You feel that loss, that sense of what's missing? Yea, whole nations of people have been made to feel that way for centuries. Kojima is a genius.
I'm not 100% you're serious, but if you are -
My thesis was on Thomas Sankara, and I still think that story is hilariously terribad. come at me bro.
It's fine to disagree, but to claim that people who don't love it as much as you are just not educated enough to understand it is condensing, in a laugh out funny sort of way.

p.s.
ksgFm1l.jpg


Pictured - the post-colonial struggle of the non-aligned movement to navigate the cold war superpowers.
 

Dremark

Banned
It's trash.

Kojima traded a compelling villain origin, a soldier who wakes up from a coma an amnesiac and is immediately thrust into war, his only memories being those he is informed about regarding his actions as a soldier, less human and more of a weapon with a past of only conflict, traded for a badly executed M.Night twist.

It serves little purpose other than to be a surprise that the narrative painfully and illogically contorts to make happen. It's a neat meta statement, we the player being complicit in Big Boss' downfall through the act of playing, mired by being clumsily woven into the canon.

#TeamStupid

How would Boss waking up without his memories fit into the canon? He didn't say much in MG1, in MG2 they write his back story around the dialogue he had and 4 he obviously remembered the Boss and such.

I think Kojima had stuff he wanted to say and used this game for it. I'm not going to say the story for the game is perfect but in all honesty he didn't really have anything left for Big Boss he needed to tell. Big Boss made perfect sense turning into his MG2 self with the back story he had in 3 and PW so I don't really view that as an issue. I can at least understand why people take issue with that as it's how it was promoted though.

Ultimately I think people had certain expectations for this game and they got something different and rejected it in a lot of cases ignoring the merits of what is there, similarly to the way people did the same with MGS2.

This isn't to say that the game's story is flawless or that it shouldn't be criticized, but writing off the entire story as stupid or complaining that it doesn't fit into the canon and presenting an alternative that you feel it should have been which also doesn't fit makes it feel like it's just being rejected outright without really judging it fairly.
 

Alienous

Member
How would Boss waking up without his memories fit into the canon? He didn't say much in MG1, in MG2 they write his back story around the dialogue he had and 4 he obviously remembered the Boss and such.

I think Kojima had stuff he wanted to say and used this game for it. I'm not going to say the story for the game is perfect but in all honesty he didn't really have anything left for Big Boss he needed to tell. Big Boss made perfect sense turning into his MG2 self with the back story he had in 3 and PW so I don't really view that as an issue. I can at least understand why people take issue with that as it's how it was promoted though.

Ultimately I think people had certain expectations for this game and they got something different and rejected it in a lot of cases ignoring the merits of what is there, similarly to the way people did the same with MGS2.

This isn't to say that the game's story is flawless or that it shouldn't be criticized, but writing off the entire story as stupid or complaining that it doesn't fit into the canon and presenting an alternative that you feel it should have been which also doesn't fit makes it feel like it's just being rejected outright without really judging it fairly.

I'm saying waking up without his memories fits into the set-up of MGSV. Jack from MGS3 and Peace Walker becoming the dude from MG2 feels like a leap, but tying memory loss into the in-canon coma could have made it work. He isn't 'Jack', he's Big Boss, and he only really has memories of being a soldier (those told to him by fellow soldiers, about characters like The Boss), so that dude becoming a war obsessed tyrant makes sense; he really knows no other world.

Yeah, it's about expectations, but I am judging it fairly. We got a game where Big Boss' evil turn happens off screen and the things I talked about above, a character that is nothing except a soldier, is a soldier who serves to die in MG1 as the nicer bad Big Boss.

It's weak in its own merits. The game does interesting things narrative-wise, like subverting the reason why there's a Metal Gear (it being a marketing tool rather than a useful weapon), but the ending and everything tied to it is (IMO) trash.
 

Lanrutcon

Member
I'll just do what MGSV did. You have a question? the answer is parasites.

Why do we consider the story stupid? parasites.
Why do we consider the twist stupid? parasites.
Why are there plot holes large enough to pilot a metal gear through? parasites.
 

Forkball

Member
I love MGS V but I am baffled at how Kojima got away with the story. Surely people tried to stop him, right? Was Kojima just too powerful that any criticism of the story would be ignored? It reminds me of Episode I in the sense of, "How was this allowed to happen?"
 

213372bu

Banned
I liked a lot of story elements in isolation, and I can't deny that.

Shooting MB members, Huey's lies, Skullface's limited yet effective scenes in audiotapes, Zero tapes, Ocelot/Miller scenes, Psycho Mantis + explanations, parasites originated and were used on the bads from MGS 3 etc. really stuck with me, as I said, in isolation. And when I look back on the game, I'm able to appreciate some scenes for what they were.

But if you were to ask me about the story or twist I literally guessed it after the second time I watched "The Phantom Pain"'s announce trailer, and each comment by Kojima or inclusion only cemented my thoughts. Plot twists or story concepts just felt so readable in a way I've almost never experienced in a game before.
 

sappyday

Member
It's not the level of other MGS I would of expected. It wanted to be more subdue but MGS isn't that imo.


Also Quiet ruins anything the game tried to accomplish and thanks to her automatically makes it the worst MGS story/character for me.
 

Dremark

Banned
I'm saying waking up without his memories fits into the set-up of MGSV. Jack from MGS3 and Peace Walker becoming the dude from MG2 feels like a leap, but tying memory loss into the in-canon coma could have made it work. He isn't 'Jack', he's Big Boss, and he only really has memories of being a soldier (those told to him by fellow soldiers, about characters like The Boss), so that dude becoming a war obsessed tyrant makes sense; he really knows no other world.

Yeah, it's about expectations, but I am judging it fairly. We got a game where Big Boss' evil turn happens off screen and the things I talked about above, a character that is nothing except a soldier, is a soldier who serves to die in MG1 as the nicer bad Big Boss.

It's weak in its own merits. The game does interesting things narrative-wise, like subverting the reason why there's a Metal Gear (it being a marketing tool rather than a useful weapon), but the ending and everything tied to it is (IMO) trash.

I'll be totally honest, I don't see how someone could have played through Peace Walker and then act like MG2 Big Boss is a stretch for him.
We literally had 2 games to build him into that character which were not planned to have follow ups taking him further. 3 showed his background and gave him motivation, PW pushed him from his old mentor, showed how his rivalry with Zero corrupted him and introduced a bunch of elements to bring him right in line with his MG2 self.

The man was doing all sorts of stuff that puts him in line with his character from it. He set up his own PMC, used child soldiers and kept his own nuke, a key part of his plan in MG2. Jack wasn't a pitch black villian in PW and to be honest he wasn't in MG2 either. Honestly playing through PW and particularly his speech at the end of the game, he was in line as the villian he becomes and I don't really see how someone who is familiar with it can't see that.

Honestly him losing all his memories after that would have been completely asinine, even if I viewed this twist as a complete failure it would have been better than acting like all his character development from the previous 2 games were a waste of time. Are Peace Walker and 3 trash too? You certainly didn't seem to get much from them, perhaps they are also lacking merit.
 

Alienous

Member
I'll be totally honest, I don't see how someone could have played through Peace Walker and then act like MG2 Big Boss is a stretch for him.
We literally had 2 games to build him into that character which were not planned to have follow ups taking him further. 3 showed his background and gave him motivation, PW pushed him from his old mentor, showed how his rivalry with Zero corrupted him and introduced a bunch of elements to bring him right in line with his MG2 self.

The man was doing all sorts of stuff that puts him in line with his character from it. He set up his own PMC, used child soldiers and kept his own nuke, a key part of his plan in MG2. Jack wasn't a pitch black villian in PW and to be honest he wasn't in MG2 either. Honestly playing through PW and particularly his speech at the end of the game, he was in line as the villian he becomes and I don't really see how someone who is familiar with it can't see that.

Honestly him losing all his memories after that would have been completely asinine, even if I viewed this twist as a complete failure it would have been better than acting like all his character development from the previous 2 games were a waste of time. Are Peace Walker and 3 trash too? You certainly didn't seem to get much from them, perhaps they are also lacking merit.

I didn't say MGSV was trash. I said the twist was. Besides, MGS3 has a great story about how soldiers are played against each-other as political pawns. And Peace Walker has a fairly trash story about nuclear deterrence and the moral ambiguity in owning a nuke for that purpose.

Maybe you don't know about Big Boss in MG2. He was attempting to engulf the world in a state of perpetual warfare, where the orphans of the last war are the soldiers of the next. He's as much of a villain as any character could aspire to be. He was far from the jilted dude he is in Peace Walker.

There isn't a clear path as to why the dude from Peace Walker, a hired gun, becomes the dude from MG2, a tyrant with a war fetish.

Also, you're missing my point with the memories angle. It would have made MGS3 and Peace Walker more important, because that's all Big Boss would know about himself - that's all anyone else could tell him. He'd be a dude in that role without the context of having lived a life. He'd be Big Boss if he didn't have memories of a non-war childhood, or that of non-war interactions. It would be Big Boss, not Jack. That dude wanting perpetual war makes sense, because he'd know nothing else.
 

co1onel

Member
I believe that it's parallel in structure but the outcome is the opposite on purpose. Like Kojima is saying that this is what happens when people are deluded but either reluctantly settle for that delusion because there is no better alternative that they perceive or double down on it due to becoming further deluded. Even though Raiden's seemingly breaks free of his delusion at the end of MGS2, we come to find he continues to wrestle with his past and identity into the future with the events of MGS4 and Rising.

MGS4's theme wasn't a direct contradiction of MGS2 like MGSV is. MGS4 was our fantasies lived out, and it sucked. You're right, Raiden went on to continue to struggle with his past, and he was miserable. Rising follows the same theme of MGSV that encourages us to live out our fantasies, directly contradicting the previous themes in the series (I recommend watching this video for more info on how rising completely contradicts Raiden as a character). In MGS4, Snake was miserable, and pretty much everyone was miserable. The impact would have been even better if Kojima went with his original idea of having Snake and Otacon hung for their war crimes. MGS4 actually reinforced the ideas of MGS2, by showing us a "what if" scenario. What if we didn't listen to the themes of MGS2 and continued to indulge in our fantasies?

MGSV takes us down the same road that MGS4 did, but instead of condemning our fantasies, it holds them up on a pedestal. At the end of the game, after Venom comes to terms with the newfound truth, he smiles, and walks away intending to continue on the charade. I interpreted this as an acceptance of the fantasy he's been living out. You're interpretation would work if the game had presented a clear, negative impact of Venom accepting his delusion, but that's not the impression I got. As it stands, MGSV's ending completely contradicts the theme of the entire series. "Create your own story" are the very words Kojima used to describe MGSV, and I think that describes everything Kojima had to say in MGSV perfectly.
 
There isn't a clear path as to why the dude from Peace Walker, a hired gun, becomes the dude from MG2, a tyrant with a war fetish.

It doesn't need to be clear. His path to villainy is heavily implied. We don't need an entire game showing him strangling kittens or something.

Also, if we want to be honest and believe that Kojima wanted MGS4 to be the truly last Metal Gear game, then we can easily assume that Big Boss became a villain right at the end of MGS3. Peace Walker muddles the timeline overall.
 

Dremark

Banned
I didn't say MGSV was trash. I said the twist was. Besides, MGS3 has a great story about how soldiers are played against each-other as political pawns. And Peace Walker has a fairly trash story about nuclear deterrence and the moral ambiguity in owning a nuke for that purpose.

Maybe you don't know about Big Boss in MG2. He was attempting to engulf the world in a state of perpetual warfare, where the orphans of the last war are the soldiers of the next. He's as much of a villain as any character could aspire to be. He was far from the jilted dude he is in Peace Walker.

There isn't a clear path as to why the dude from Peace Walker, a hired gun, becomes the dude from MG2, a tyrant with a war fetish.

Also, you're missing my point with the memories angle. It would have made MGS3 and Peace Walker more important, because that's all Big Boss would know about himself - that's all anyone else could tell him. He'd be a dude in that role without the context of having lived a life. He'd be Big Boss if he didn't have memories of a non-war childhood, or that of non-war interactions. It would be Big Boss, not Jack. That dude wanting perpetual war makes sense, because he'd know nothing else.

MGS3 and Peace Walker were written with the intention of bringing Big Boss in line with his previously established character and not continuing further, if they failed to do that they failed in regards to the larger story.

I am familiar with how Big Boss was in MG2:SS. He was the head of a rogue nation he had built up into the world's only nuculear superpower and viewed a life of war as his only reason for himself and his fellow soldiers to exist.

The story of MGS3 was written with this in mind, the Boss is used as a political tool and has to die as a shameful traitor in order to make things right. A noble sacrifice but one that puts Jack at odds with the Pentagon and was set up so he'd set up Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land for soldiers to have thier place. If they had never made another game in the series him doing his later actions would make sense because of what he saw and what he went through.

Similarly Peace Walker had him basically set up his proto Outer Heaven, put him at odds with Zero as the later stories had retroactively made that part of the reason for his uprisings. During the course of the story through her AI system in Peace Walker, the Boss once again sacrifices in order to make things right and prevent a nuculear holocaust. Boss views this as her rejecting him and the life of a soldier. He gets a nuke and child soldiers as part of his story and he gives a speech at the end of the game mirroring his lines in MG2:SS about how they are soldiers with no other place and continuing to fight is the reason they exist. In the Final line of the game Boss literally refers to MB as thief Outer Heaven while he finishes this speech and the game's logo turns blood red.

At this point he is not some "jilted dude" and he's not some guy who will eventually turn into a villian, he is Big Boss. Even Big Boss himself isn't the worst person there is. Grey Fox and Schneider, the guy who lead the resistance against him in MG, talk about how great of a guy he is, rescuing them and in Schneider's case how he saved refugees from Outer Heaven from NATO (iirc) bombing them to death.

This is why focusing on Boss wasn't nessesary. This is why deleting his memories makes no sense. Having him lose his memories after the explosion and only know his place by the expectation of others for him to live up to begin Big Boss might as well just make him a different character entirely. Oh wait, why does that idea sound so familiar?
 
I feel that I love the overall concept of MGSV, but the execution was missing a lot of what makes an MGS game an MGS game to me. We needed a big bad boss unit of some sort, and we needed a bigger ending than the intro of the game repeating itself. Also, Skullface is set up so brilliantly and then it feels like he was in the game for such a small fraction and is so by the books as a villain that it was wasted. If the game put all of these things in and created the usual amount of story beats around them, except more scattered throughout the 70 or so hours I played, then I would praise it as one of the best MGS games ever made, but as it is now, it's horribly disappointing. Not to mention that myself and many others figured out pretty much everything that was going to happen in the game from the trailers, which seemed as if they would all be from the beginning stages of the game. As it turned out, almost every cutscene made it into those trailers. If you've experienced the trailers and paid attention, you've experienced most of the story beats already.

The whole thing has felt to me as if there was a lot more planned that had to be removed because the game was too large in scale for Konami to continue budgeting it. I will say that Chapter 51's inclusion may have fixed it, however, judging from the descriptions of how certain scenes were going to be handled. It would have been worth delaying the game a few months or even a year over, imo.
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
This was supposed to be a game that showed BB's slide into villain hood.

Really this game adds nothing to the over all story aside from explaining how BB lived at the end of MG1.

There was really a side story at best and should have been labeled as such, not as MGS FIVE.

Perhaps if Kojima has had more time to flesh it out more but as we can see from Ch2 this was kicked out the door unfinished.
 

SomTervo

Member
How is it consistent with MGS2 when it tells the exact opposite message that MGS2 tells?

Yeah, this post shows you haven't read between the lines to understand the actual message of the game.

MGSV has some big flaws in terms of its story, but the thematic message is not one of them. The message is on-point.

This was supposed to be a game that showed BB's slide into villain hood.

Really this game adds nothing to the over all story aside from explaining how BB lived at the end of MG1.

A) From the other thread today:

People keep complaining how we didn't see Big Boss become a villain but I feel that MGS5 perfectly illustrates that.

Big Boss does to Venom (you) exactly what the US did to The Boss. He uses you to save his own ass and abandons Kaz to create his own outer heaven. The white petals at the start of the hospital scene also highlight this.

B) MGSV didn't need to add anything to the series' plot. We know fucking everything that happens in the series' history, ten times over, in more detail than we could ever need. Especially after MGS4.

MGSV takes us down the same road that MGS4 did, but instead of condemning our fantasies, it holds them up on a pedestal. At the end of the game, after Venom comes to terms with the newfound truth, he smiles, and walks away intending to continue on the charade. I interpreted this as an acceptance of the fantasy he's been living out. You're interpretation would work if the game had presented a clear, negative impact of Venom accepting his delusion, but that's not the impression I got. As it stands, MGSV's ending completely contradicts the theme of the entire series. "Create your own story" are the very words Kojima used to describe MGSV, and I think that describes everything Kojima had to say in MGSV perfectly.

Uh... This isn't what happened at the end. Did you miss the part where he punches the mirror in rage then walks away to meet his fate with bitterness?
 
You can't possibly call it forgettable.

Right, the fact that there is so much discussion around just the story alone shows that this isn't some play and forget game.

There will be games with better stories this year for sure, but people will talk about MGS5 the most.
 
They gave it away in the trailer with the Garbage song, where they showed the Kaz "What about him?" scene. I never once believed I was playing as Big Boss, so the ending wasn't surprising in the slightest.

And it really has very little bearing on everything that transpires between the Prologue and Episode 46. It's just a weak ending tacked-on to an unfinished narrative that it couldn't have felt any more detached from.
 
Was it sparse and not executed...yes.


Was it Stupid...no. Honestly MGSV's plot and theme were really straight forward and the twist pretty much adds on to that being very transparent.
 
This whole debate around MGSV is MGS2 all over again. All whining and bitching until a 5-10 year period will pass and then everyone will hail it as a masterpiece (which it is). It plays brilliantly, the story and characters were great just not the focus this time around. I was surprised and thrilled by the ending and the twists, probably because I avoided spoilers and fan speculation threads on GAF.

Not to defend Kojima, but I'm pretty sure if it was up to him he would have spent another year on the game easily. Konami kinda screwed him over. There is just SO much content in the game and playing it the second time around is even more fun to me.

That's my opinion at least.
 

Ashura_MX

Member
I find it weird anyone found the twist surprising.

I recognized Kiefer Sutherland's voice immediately as the other patient with the bandaged face in the very first Phantom Pain reveal trailer back in 2012. As soon as they announced he'd be playing Snake it was obvious there was something going on.

This, in-game there's signals and neon signs everywhere. People calling this a twist, I can't even
 
I'm not 100% you're serious, but if you are -
My thesis was on Thomas Sankara, and I still think that story is hilariously terribad. come at me bro.
It's fine to disagree, but to claim that people who don't love it as much as you are just not educated enough to understand it is condensing, in a laugh out funny sort of way.

p.s.
ksgFm1l.jpg


Pictured - the post-colonial struggle of the non-aligned movement to navigate the cold war superpowers.

I think where we disagree is the fact that I believe this to be intentional by Kojima.

I agree the story isn't up to MGS standards, but for a reason. Any real fan of the series should have felt anger and resentment as they plowed through the 'story'. I felt it, but it reinforces the 'phantom' reading of the story.
 
There is so much to say about this game that hasn't been said, and it will come out as we go along. People are resisting the comparisons to MGS2 for good reason, but don't quit it on it yet.

MGSV doesn't just provide commentary on sequels, it destroys the notion of a sequel. Every story element we wanted as fans was either trampled on, devoid, or out of sync.

All I'm pleading is this- Kojima has shown his genius in the past. Why would we assume that he all of sudden forgot what he was doing? There is a powerful message of loss and wanting in this game. We are left to play it over and over, never sure what is supposed to be real or canon, all while wishing for more.

The question of WHY it couldn't be about Big Boss is something I think Kojima wanted us to think about. Even compared to Ground Zeroes, TPP feels thin.
 

Fury451

Banned
I dunno, I don't think it's terrible, it's just not really "there". The ending isn't much of a conclusion, it's just a neat little twist that doesn't have a whole lot of ramifications on the plot of the game or the rest of the series.

It's not really all that stupid, at least not in the traditional MGS sense. It's just not that interesting.

I would have to say that this is definitely a good critique of its biggest problems.

I didn't really get the feeling that I was playing a MGS game, but rather a game that was wearing the skin of MGS. An impostor.

I guess because of the twist you could argue that that's intentional, but it really doesn't explain why characters are acting completely out of the norm, and why the overall tone and execution of it just seems way more lackluster and ambivalent. It's a game that really never climaxes, and ultimately is pretty irrelevant. There was a good concept in there, but it wasn't realized.
 
I would have to say that this is definitely a good critique of its biggest problems.

I didn't really get the feeling that I was playing a MGS game, but rather a game that was wearing the skin of MGS. An impostor.

I guess because of the twist you could argue that that's intentional, but it really doesn't explain why characters are acting completely out of the norm, and why the overall tone and execution of it just seems way more lackluster and ambivalent. It's a game that really never climaxes, and ultimately is pretty irrelevant. There was a good concept in there, but it wasn't realized.

The fact that an MGS game didn't have to heavily rely on its story to be memorable/interesting speaks volumes of its gameplay.
 

Astral

Member
The execution and pacing were bad but I think the worst part about MGSV was the misleading as fuck trailers trying to make you think that the story was about Big Boss' downfall and that this would the missing link in the MGS saga. That was all a bunch of bullshit. The truth is there really was no story to tell. The post-credit conversation at the end of Peace Walker practically spells out why Big Boss does what he does in MG1 and 2. There's really nothing else to go over. MGSV's story feels like filler. Maybe that's why Kojima did the whole body double thing. He knew Big Boss' story was over but he still wanted to make another game, so he made you, the player, Big Boss.
 
All I'm pleading is this- Kojima has shown his genius in the past. Why would we assume that he all of sudden forgot what he was doing? There is a powerful message of loss and wanting in this game. We are left to play it over and over, never sure what is supposed to be real or canon, all while wishing for more.
Probably because he had a co-writer in the past.
 
The execution and pacing were bad but I think the worst part about MGSV was the misleading as fuck trailers trying to make you think that the story was about Big Boss' downfall and that this would the missing link in the MGS saga. That was all a bunch of bullshit. The truth is there really was no story to tell. The post-credit conversation at the end of Peace Walker practically spells out why Big Boss does what he does in MG1 and 2. There's really nothing else to go over. MGSV's story feels like filler. Maybe that's why Kojima did the whole body double thing. He knew Big Boss' story was over but he still wanted to make another game, so he made you, the player, Big Boss.

As stated earlier in the thread, this is the sequel to end all MGS sequels/prequels. The series should have finished with MGS4. Konami AND the fans are both guilty of wanting Kojima to make more MGS games while he wanted to attempt something new.

Hideo played us all perfectly. And I freakin' love that.
 

SomTervo

Member
The execution and pacing were bad but I think the worst part about MGSV was the misleading as fuck trailers trying to make you think that the story was about Big Boss' downfall and that this would the missing link in the MGS saga. That was all a bunch of bullshit. The truth is there really was no story to tell. The post-credit conversation at the end of Peace Walker practically spells out why Big Boss does what he does in MG1 and 2. There's really nothing else to go over. MGSV's story feels like filler. Maybe that's why Kojima did the whole body double thing. He knew Big Boss' story was over but he still wanted to make another game, so he made you, the player, Big Boss.

I direct you again to this post:

People keep complaining how we didn't see Big Boss become a villain but I feel that MGS5 perfectly illustrates that.

Big Boss does to Venom (you) exactly what the US did to The Boss. He uses you to save his own ass and abandons Kaz to create his own outer heaven. The white petals at the start of the hospital scene also highlight this.

The final scene also implies that Big Boss is sending Venom to his death. You are Venom snake and you are supposed to feel betrayed by BB. Well, at least I did. Seriously, BB is a dick and has been since Peace Walker. A likeable one but yeah, that's the danger of legends and perception.

Furthermore, I agree with posts that say the ending essentially re-contextualises the hours of gameplay before it.

^It does show BB's downfall. Just not from BB's perspective. Which is an incredibly interesting way to play it.

But it wasn't memorable or interesting.

Yes it was.

Right, the fact that there is so much discussion around just the story alone shows that this isn't some play and forget game.

There will be games with better stories this year for sure, but people will talk about MGS5 the most.

Yeah, I mean, I like MGSV's story, but 1. The Witcher 3 alone beats it with its little finger and 2. it is absolutely not forgettable - even if for the wrong reasons in many ways
 
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