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The uncompressed audio needs to go in these games. File size too large because of it

At the very least, they could make it an optional install. Not everyone has a setup to take advantage of it. I have some good Sennheiser headphones for my PC, use the official Sony headset for my PS4, and just don't have a use for all of that awesome audio.

I know some of you do have the setup to take advantage of uncompressed audio, and that's totally fine. So, I'm saying, maybe make it an optional install and shave off 10GB-20GB in some of these titles.(just a guess. maybe more maybe less)
 

Putty

Member
At the very least, they could make it an optional install. Not everyone has a setup to take advantage of it. I have some good Sennheiser headphones for my PC, use the official Sony headset for my PS4, and just don't have a use for all of that awesome audio.

I know some of you do have the setup to take advantage of uncompressed audio, and that's totally fine. So, I'm saying, maybe make it an optional install and shave off 10GB-20GB in some of these titles.(just a guess. maybe more maybe less)

Legit question?!
 

MilkBeard

Member
I disagree. There are some games where they compressed that audio for whatever reason, and i can tell. If its only a small reduction then it wont be noticeable, but they can do it because blurays have the space. If you jave that many games, then you are going to need another hard drive anyway.
Having an optional install might be good but it will make things more complicated for the layman.

When audio is compressed to a certain point, you dont need good speakers to be able to notice.
 

Dryk

Member
I always thought one of the reasons is performance. Codec licensing costs might be another factor.
Most people you ask would probably rather the 20Gb of space over a fraction of an fps or a few cents, I know I would. It would have been fine a few generations ago when it was just filling up empty disc space but a lot of people are all digital nowadays and it's rough.
 

Octavia

Unconfirmed Member
Urgh, Skryim has an amazing soundtrack but the sound engine compresses the music so terribly it's disgustingly lossy when you crank the volume.

Do not subject yourself to that in any other game. Such a letdown.
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
I always thought one of the reasons is performance. Codec licensing costs might be another factor.
How big of a performance cost are we talking about here?
Aren't the decompression algorithms for at least the more popular formats implemented in hardware?
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
I don't think there's a single game in existence that stores its audio files uncompressed in memory. It would be beyond stupid to do so.
Sure, you had PS1 games use audio CD tracks for music, but that's all I can think of as far as uncompressed sound. I don't think a single newer game even has uncompressed audio on disc.
 

sfried

Member
I don't think there's a single game in existence that stores its audio files uncompressed in memory. It would be beyond stupid to do so.
Sure, you had PS1 games use audio CD tracks for music, but that's all I can think of as far as uncompressed sound. I don't think a single newer game even has uncompressed audio on disc.

Ask Kojima when he did it for MGS4.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I can sympathize with digital consumers who have bandwidth caps, but if you've got space in a Bluray, you might as well fill it.
 

chrislowe

Member
20GBytes are loads of audio, cant imagine they use that much?

20GB is like 30hours of audio in CD-quality, do they really use that much sound in todays games?
 

Putty

Member
There are a number of reasons why audio get compressed, the main one is memory footprint. In UE4 for example wavs get converted to OGG (better than MP3 as no looping issues), and the quality can be adjusted on a per asset basis using a 0-100 scale with 100 being the "best" quality. It's a balancing act really. If the game needs as much memory as possible then for sure you can save alot. Personally speaking i wouldn't compress anything. I've just started working on a game using UE4 and the assets they had in currently we're set to 40. I changed that straight away to 100. Everything will be 100 unless the dev turns around and says "we need to shave some MB's", then and only then i would adjust that 100 figure, changing the non important files first in a hope you shave enough mem before you have to go adjusting important assets.
 

kogasu

Member
Optional would certainly be nice. I haven't really had a problem with audio except for the digital version of Guilty Gear Xrd on PS3 using super compressed audio. Every single music track has very noticeable loss and they're all in mono....just eww, it's so distracting. I would have loved to option to get uncompressed audio. I mean the option is there to buy a physical copy but still. I wasn't expecting that to be so bad.
 

Putty

Member
20GBytes are loads of audio, cant imagine they use that much?

20GB is like 30hours of audio in CD-quality, do they really use that much sound in todays games?

Not anywhere near by a country mile and then some, and then another country mile and then some more...

There are ommisions for sure with the Fallouts of this world which has thousands of lines of dialogue, or similar type games that have multiple languages with masses of dialogue.
 

jaina

Member
How big of a performance cost are we talking about here?
Aren't the decompression algorithms for at least the more popular formats implemented in hardware?
That's why I'm not sure whether my reason is valid. And the memory footprint is a good point, that's more important than the small decompression cost (if done in software).
 

Lebon14

Member
I agree that using uncompressed lossless is... stupid. They could use the buttload of compressed lossless formats instead such as FLAC (open source, also multi-channel compatible), TTA, ALAC, etc. The only downside is that it'll require some decoding power from the CPU. Just a little bit.

But, imo, if it means getting lossy otherwise, I'd prefer having uncompressed lossless.
 
I don't think there's a single game in existence that stores its audio files uncompressed in memory. It would be beyond stupid to do so.
Sure, you had PS1 games use audio CD tracks for music, but that's all I can think of as far as uncompressed sound. I don't think a single newer game even has uncompressed audio on disc.
I know, for one, Rayman Legends PC has, like, most music and half the effects uncompressed, and the other half is old ADPCM.

I don't dig through every game though.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Ask Kojima when he did it for MGS4.
I can't say for certain, but I don't think MGS4 stored uncompressed sounds in memory or on disc. It could however output uncompressed sound from the console to the receiver. Quite a few PS3 games could do this, but that doesn't mean the source sounds used for the final mix were uncompressed too. I think this is what got a lot of people confused.

I know, for one, Rayman Legends PC has, like, most music and half the effects uncompressed, and the other half is old ADPCM.

I don't dig through every game though.
The music doesn't surprise me that much as it's most likely never stored in memory and just streamed. Rayman Legends is a fairly lightweight game though, so they probably never struggled to store the assets into memory.
 

Bittercup

Member
Titanfall has uncompressed audio on PC to lower the requirements for dual core CPUs. But that was only for the PC version. Xbox 1 has compressed audio.
And that seems more like a special case. I'm not sure why some people think this is suddenly the norm. I haven't read about any other game doing this.
Games are finally no longer held back by tiny DVDs from last gen. It was expected that game sizes will increase significantly this gen and not just because devs like to bloat the size with uncompressed audio.
Fallout 4 for example. 25GB game and 13.5GB from that are just for textures. Textures alone are already three times as big as Skyrim as a complete game was on last gen consoles.
In comparison, voices 2.4GB and sounds 1.5GB. Skyrim in comparison 1.3GB and 0.9GB.
Graphics are usually the biggest contributor to game sizes.
 
If games actually used that much space for audio files there should be file sizes to prove it. I'm fairly certain most games are huge because of high bit rate video.
 

Skelter

Banned
Get the hell out of here OP. Lossless audio is a beautiful thing especially when you can enjoy it on a proper 5.1 setup.
 

Putty

Member
Titanfall has uncompressed audio on PC to lower the requirements for dual core CPUs. But that was only for the PC version. Xbox 1 has compressed audio.
And that seems more like a special case. I'm not sure why some people think this is suddenly the norm. I haven't read about any other game doing this.
Games are finally no longer held back by tiny DVDs from last gen. It was expected that game sizes will increase significantly this gen and not just because devs like to bloat the size with uncompressed audio.
Fallout 4 for example. 25GB game and 13.5GB from that are just for textures. Textures alone are already three times as big as Skyrim as a complete game was on last gen consoles.
In comparison, voices 2.4GB and sounds 1.5GB. Skyrim in comparison 1.3GB and 0.9GB.
Graphics are usually the biggest contributor to game sizes.

I think going by this figure the vocals must be compressed by quite a bit, and sounds less so.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Decoding* might not sound like much, but it adds up.

If you have like 15 sounds going off at once in runtime, that's 15 times as much as playing something on your music player. Or if you do it when loading assets (small on storage, big on memory), it adds to your load time.

There's always a happy medium for a default, and honestly I think audio quality is something that needs to come back as an option.

Some/many PC games from the 90s allowed you to select between low/medium/high for sound with discrete sets of audio clips.

edit: *Just to clarify, right now this is more a point for consideration with mobile platforms than consoles. Typically music is compressed, stereo, sound effects are lossless, mono.
 

//ARCANUM

Member
To all the people telling the OP to get out of here and leave your uncompressed sound alone, you do realize he's just asking for developers to make it an OPTION to not install uncompressed sound. You can have your uncompressed sound, no one is coming to take it. He's just asking for the option.
 

RetroDLC

Foundations of Burden
20GBytes are loads of audio, cant imagine they use that much?

20GB is like 30hours of audio in CD-quality, do they really use that much sound in todays games?

Yes. Firstly, game audio tends to be DVD quality (48 kHz), not CD quality (44 kHz). Secondly, a game may bundle all of its localised languages (French, Italian, German and Spanish as a standard) along with the English. Thirdly, soundtracks these days are often broken up into segments and stems for dynamic transitions and reactive stings, depending on how the music has been implemented in the game. Lastly, the audio for some cutscenes tend to be rendered (or 'baked') as 5.1 stems, akin to movies too.
 

_machine

Member
To all the people telling the OP to get out of here and leave your uncompressed sound alone, you do realize he's just asking for developers to make it an OPTION to not install uncompressed sound. You can have your uncompressed sound, no one is coming to take it. He's just asking for the option.
That option would come with an opportunity cost, meaning resources away from something else, for a very, very small percentage of the audience, and is by no means trivial to implement for multiplatform games. I'm not even sure if the platforms offer a decent distribution method, as I remember Sleeping Dogs/Skyrim High-Res texture packs being necessary to download once you had "bought" them and tied them to your account. It's not hard to see why it sounds unreasonable to implement.
 

-shadow-

Member
And here I am hoping the exact opposite for Nintendo games. I rather have huge audio files than the 32KHz (and for 3DS games often even much lower) crap Nintendo pulls off to this day in almost all of their games. It sounds terrible through a good audio setup or a decent pair of headphones...
 
As a sound designer in games since Dreamcast days, I can tell you that audio takes up a lot of room, uncompressed takes up a huge amount of room. It's less of an issue now with around 5GB of memory and 50GB Blurays. And then it's also more of an issue since download caps are thing in some countries.

Compressed audio needs to be decompressed at run time so OGG or similar are widely used. I haven't touched PS4 yet but I hope they're not still using VAG files (ugh, I hate those bastards).
MP3's aren't used much outside of (older?) mobile games. A wav gets you away from that so in a mobile game, you'd probably have the music as an mp3 or other compressed file and the sound effects as wavs. The extra space you need for your sound effects balanced out the hit in your CPU for decompressing.

Uncompressed means CD Quality or higher. 1 minute of stereo 16 bit 44.1 kHz audio takes 10 MB. A lot of audio is recorded up to 24 bit 96 kHz. Every time you increase the bit rate, the file size will jump dramatically.

Some audio is streamed off your disc or hard drive- bigger files increase seek time and increase the chance of hiccups or files arriving late, especially when you have multiple things streaming at once (music, voices, level mesh, game models, textures, etc).

Sound Designers usually have settings to determine the level of data compression so they can balance file size versus quality. It should be less of an issue with current gen systems and hopefully with cross gen almost gone completely, new systems won't have gimped audio because of PS3/360.

There is another type of compression that comes into play that also affects the quality of sound and that is audio compression/ limiting/ maximising that's often used to control the dynamics (so really loud sounds don't blow your speakers). It makes quite bits louder and loud bits quieter- evening out the dynamics. But it can also have deleterious effects on the audio if not done properly good example: the original version of Halo 4 on 360 (the MCC version is much, much better in this regard).

and one last thing, different engines handle audio in different ways, different audio middleware (if they use FMOD, Wwise-you just say Wise-) will all sound slightly different.
and different sound designers will make different choices so there's no unified way the files are handled.


Lastly, I agree you should be able to select which languages are downloaded, particularly for digital download versions. I don't see why that is all that hard.
 
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