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Developers really need to start having DS4 support on their PC games
- Thread starter Napalm_Frank
- Start date
The bolded is basically all it comes down to. The DualShock 4 is shit on PC simply because Sony aren't interested in making it good. Why should MS fill in for a company that doesn't even seem to want their hardware to work well with Windows? The standardisation of XInput is largely why we've had the progress with joypad gaming on PC that we've had. You're suggesting something more akin to what Valve's implemented with the Steam controller, but without it being tailored to any one controller. That would be nice and all, but it's not that dissimilar to what DirectInput was in the past when it was the only option. Every game that implemented controller support simply let the user specify what every button does... but without the confidence that every user can simply plug their joypad in and get a reliable experience out of it, joypad gaming itself mostly went unsupported instead. Your original post was in regards to button icons... that's not something being made impossible by the OS. Developers can already determine that you're using a DualShock, and can swap the images with the same images that they use for a PlayStation port of the same game. They don't though because they simply (and usually correctly) assume that you'll just be using an Xbox controller.
I don't understand why you think having companies like Sony or Nintendo have an input into how devices are treated in Windows makes any sense when as per your own admission they have no intention on making the use of their peripherals any easier for PC gamers. How is an OS level button remapping tool going to cause PS icons to show up in games? You're just remapping them to be sent as Xbox buttons presses, and sending them as something other than Xbox button presses simply reverts us back to how DirectInput was before XInput came along. If Sony doesn't want to support Windows with their controller, then fuck their controller... it's not on MS to make it work for them. The functionality of the controller is there, it just has a level of gaming support that it deserves based on Sony's attitude towards it.
Jon of the Wired
Member
Sony doesn't need to provide drivers. Everything game devs need to support the DS4 is already in place. Every piece of useful functionality on the controller is exposed through DirectInput and there's no need for game devs to implement support for generic DIrectInput devices either (which could be a pain in the ass) since you can recognize a DS4 by its product id. If game devs want to support it, there's absolutely nothing stopping them.
Lol, please.
We've already been through this multiple times. to quote myself from the last thread:
Sony's controllers only support directinput which is dead as a door nail and only exists for legacy peripheral support. There is no official directinput support from anyone as it was deprecated years ago. Directinput was deprecated by Microsoft in 2011, and Windows 8 launched in 2012. As it is now Sony are sneaking in support by piggybacking off legacy peripheral support under windows 8 and 10. The last Windows version Sony's controllers could legitimately claim to support was Windows 7.
If knowing this you feel Sony are providing a level of support for PC that warrants your complaints then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Sony's controllers only support directinput which is dead as a door nail and only exists for legacy peripheral support. There is no official directinput support from anyone as it was deprecated years ago. Directinput was deprecated by Microsoft in 2011, and Windows 8 launched in 2012. As it is now Sony are sneaking in support by piggybacking off legacy peripheral support under windows 8 and 10. The last Windows version Sony's controllers could legitimately claim to support was Windows 7.
If knowing this you feel Sony are providing a level of support for PC that warrants your complaints then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Jon of the Wired
Member
DirectInput may be officially deprecated, but that makes little difference. It works today, and will continue to work in the future. There's no value in creating a third Windows controller API.
If there's such a clamor for another input API, then there's always SDL2, which already exists and works perfectly with the DS4 on Windows, Mac, Linux, Android and so on.
You seem to not understand what deprecated means. There is only one existing supported Windows API since 2011. The fact that you can't play most modern Windows games without a third party wrapper should tell you how dead directinput is
as well as just how poor Sony's Windows support actually is
Jon of the Wired
Member
I understand what deprecated means. I'm saying that in practice it doesn't matter if its deprecated if it continues to work, and there's no indication that it will be removed. I'd be surprised if any large piece of Windows software doesn't use a deprecated call or two. Windows is full of them, and they'll never remove most of them because they're too afraid of breaking backwards compatibility.
It doesn't continue to work with actual games. Windows can see the inputs and programs completely unsupported or endorsed by Sony are used to translate these unsupported inputs into something modern games can understand. You can't play most new games without third party software. Sony included some legacy input support and walked away from their controllers as far as Windows is concerned.
Jon of the Wired
Member
Yes, the fact that current games don't bother to support the DS4 is the entire reason for this thread. Modern games could support the DS4 using DirectInput, but they chose not to, presumably because they don't think it's worth the effort. If that's the case, then the best thing to do is make a fuss about it, and hope it convinces them to do so.
There's no technical obstacle to supporting the DS4, and the fact that third party wrappers (which do use DirectInput) can "translate these unsupported inputs into something modern games can understand" actually shows that DIrectInput is working perfectly well in current versions of Windows. All devs need to do is use it.
Except that the fact that Sony doesn't bother to support the DS4 on the PC is the reason for this thread. If Sony had bothered with actual Windows support you would just connect your controller and play games.
You are asking for backwards compatibility for an outdated controller standard to be incorporated by every developer individually rather than asking for the far more reasonable request that Sony support their $60 controllers on the PC. If Sony doesn't consider it worthwhile, why should developers?
Jon of the Wired
Member
The DS4 is a standards compliant USB HID game controller. As a device manufacturer they've done the thing they're responsible for, which is implement the multi-vendor agreed upon standard for the kind of device they're making. It's not Sony's fault that Microsoft has deprecated the only way USB HID game controller devices are exposed in their OS in favour of proprietary nonsense. It's not even clear to me that Sony can legally support XInput without a hardware manufacturer license from Microsoft.
Sony has fulfilled their responsibilities. It's unfortunate that Microsoft has made supporting the DS4 harder than it needs to be, but the fact remains that it is possible, if devs are willing to put in the effort.
DInput continues to work perfectly fine. How is it Microsoft's fault that for the purpose of supporting a regular controller their "proprietary nonsense" is the more consumer-friendly and hence popular option?
Wait, how is it not Sony's fault that they chose to release a controller that only communicates with Windows using an obsolete standard and has no official Windows support?
Also as far as I've seen it's pretty unanimous by programmers that xinput is better then dinput in nearly every way for standard game controllers. Most complaints are that xinput is lacking in options for anything that isn't a standard game controller. No one seems to lament it's passing other than people trying to use unsupported controllers with modern Windows games.
lukeskymac
Member
This thread got really stupid really fast.
I don't even understand how people hate the Xbone controller so much. They both pretty much equal aside from the fact the PS4 controller has horrendous build quality. The Elite controller is much better than both if you're willing to pay.
Well no.. it was a multi-vendor agreed upon standard up to the point where it was deprecated. Now it's there only to not break compatibility with past hardware, it's not supposed to be used today as your chosen method of input, and so software support is accurately reflecting this. The new standard would be XInput... so they could either agree to go with that (which would immediately cause the device to work with basically everything), or provide a decent modern alternative. They simply can't be assed, and so their controller sucks for PC gaming. If Valve were to take a similarly half-assed approach, then their controller would suck too.... but it doesn't.
Why are we going in circles on things we both admitted?
How about this.
3 points here.
1. MS solving the issue.
2. Letting other companies have an input this isn't limited to nintendo or sony as the word like clearly shows it can apply to more.
3. They could do better but they want to sell more of their own hardware.
It's clear as day yet you keep harping on point one thinking it's separate from points 2 and 3.Stop saying what my original post was when it's clear as day what certain sentiments I made.
I don't expect sony to do jack nor are they required to for certain solutions. If people can map and do profiles something the elite does, why can't MS save most gamers the trouble and do what they are doing for elite for anything that windows recognizes as a useable input? I already said the basic reason why in my first post and it's so can they sell more of their own pricy hardware which is in my first post.
Do what valve is doing it's the sane path to ensuring gamers on windows don't have to keep fighting with the OS which is garbage , companies like sony which are garbage in support, and 3rd party programs that despite efforts aren't always a solution. For the last time I don't want buttons icons only for DS4 they could be for anything and considering that keyboards from various companies can do this there is little reason outside of commercial interests not to make it more systematic and useable by any reasonable input. So again now we have more proof it's doable yet MS actions. If valve and amateurs have better solutions so can MS. Just so you don't feel hurt so can Sony.
Dinput sucked caused devs couldn't even let people map what they want when they wanted to so no it's not even as good as basic mapper which can brute force it's way in to anything with no real performance hit to gamers. Some devs don't even include proper controller options be controllers or KB&M these days mentioning the few that do doesn't make up for the bulk of games that come out without any decent support. Again with all that you mentioned about the devs how about we save the trouble of dealing with them and let gamers deal with configuring the hardware from a better level. This would mean the lazy devs do nothing already don't need to do anything and devs making an effort already can focus on other things in making their pc port or ground up title work better. Even now Dinput sucks compared to solutions that hack it and offer more there's no argument. Acting as if Xinput which while has been getting more support will always be support or applied which it's not if you actually add up the the huge amount of pc releases the last 2-5 years alone shows there is more work to be done. Xinput will not solve older games with bad configuartion in general. Xinput is great if you're 360 or elite controller not so much if you're anything else and having issues, yet this doesn't strike you as odd or self serving to MS. Go ahead ignore the fact we have real programs that right now do a better job than OS freshly installed or even for the sake of argument 360 drivers installed.
Also before you start conflating and confusing things. The api or program can be created to do various things. I never said a mapper would change the icon but all of these things should be part of a program or service to improve the general experience of tweaking or configuring your controller vs the crap control panel that can't even force calibration to work in games or map controller functions.. Outside of checking if your stuff works it's absolutely useless compared to other software. Been this way for decades while MS gives us more input apis that barely solve the problem unless you use their hardware, which is quite the conflict of interest on this subject. Mapping doesn't have to be from xbox controller it could be a keyboard or something on your mouse for that matter, my point it doesn't exist yet it could.
So yes MS could get out of the way, stop playing politics like they have since the original xbox controller came to pc, and actually build a more practical api that doesn't require devs or people who make controllers to do all that much, Don't like the opinion fine but don't ask me to change a statement that considering the situation yes does put MS at the middle as much as sony. Unless you actually add something new to your argument I'm moving on.
Jon of the Wired
Member
You're conflating USB HID and DirectInput. USB HID is not deprecated, and certainly Microsoft does not have the power to unilaterally deprecate it (that's where the "multi-vendor" part comes in). USB HID mice and keyboards are still standard everywhere, and USB HID gamepads are still fully supported under OSX, Linux, and Android, at least. Microsoft, unfortunately, only exposes USB HID game controller devices through the DirectInput API, which they had deprecated (for what little that matters). They could have exposed them through the XInput API, but they chose not not, likely in a (largely successful) attempt to manipulate the Windows game controller market in a way that would benefit the XBox.
Supporting XInput on the DS4 would not be straightforward. Microsoft hasn't published (AFAICT) any public documentation on how to build a XInput compatible game controller, so it seems like your only options are to get a hardware license from Microsoft (which seems unlikely, for Sony), or reverse engineer it (a substantial task). Valve has chosen to spend the considerable effort to reverse engineer it, and that's great, kudos to them. Since the Steam Controller is designed only for use on PC, they really didn't have much choice. I don't see Sony committing the resources to do that, though. In any case, you'd never get DS4 appropriate button icons that way (it doesn't seems like you can identify a controller model using XInput) and you'd never get access to the additional functionality of the DS4. XInput is just too limiting.
I think all this is beside the point, though. Whether or not you think that Sony has provided the level of support you feel you're owed, the fact remains that games can support the DS4 on Windows. Sony doesn't really have to do any more than they have, the discussion now is between game developers and game players. If game developers want to deliver good DS4 support, and make their players happy, there is absolutely nothing stopping them. It's irrational to deny players that feature because you feel that Sony's been too stingy, or something.
The DS4 doesn't need drivers, it's already recognized as a gamepad by Windows. For it to work in "everything," it would need built-in Xinput support, which would require a hardware revision, permission from Microsoft, and would still show Xbox 360 button icons.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Fallout 4 is particularly weird because it has DS4 support, even to the point of using the LED. But, it never changes the in game button prompts.
I'd take that over no support though.
Yeah, it pairs easily with bluetooth adapters too.
I'd take that over no support though.
Yeah, it pairs easily with bluetooth adapters too.
Jon of the Wired
Member
The DS4 is a USB HID device. The whole point of USB HID is that you only need to write one driver, and it works with every compliant device. That's why you don't need to install drivers to use a USB mouse or keyboard. Gamepads would be the same if Microsoft wasn't a big bag of jerks.
Alcoholikaust
Member
I'd love official DS4 drivers to drop just before DS3-souls on anything but a Sony pad seems sacrilegious.
Love my XB1 pad though
You didn't answer my question though. Does it work on OSX?
Can't speak for anyone else, but in my experience the DS4 works out of the box on OSX.
Then I agree it should just work in Windows.
Wait. Now that I think about it, it does work in windows right? it's just most games don't support it.
In that case, not MS's fault for offering multiple ways to use controllers in Windows. If I recall correctly, gamepad support was rubbish until they brought in xinput.
Seems like the whole problem about too many parties not giving a damn
It's recognized as a legacy DirectInput controller. This would be like shipping a Carbon app in 2015 on Mac.
Jon of the Wired
Member
It just works on Linux, but I don't have an OSX machine to try it out on.
Doesn't change the fact that the only alternative is proprietary. What is Sony supposed to do?
Couldn't this thread also be titled "Sony really needs to start having XInput support for the DS4"?
There are some third party PC gamepads that support XInput, so seems like Sony should be able to do the same, if they really wanted to. It seems like this may not be worth it from a ROI perspective, so I see why they choose not to.
There are some third party PC gamepads that support XInput, so seems like Sony should be able to do the same, if they really wanted to. It seems like this may not be worth it from a ROI perspective, so I see why they choose not to.
Exactly, surprised that there's any support for it to begin with.
Actually support it as a Windows controller? If Sony won't support it as a Windows controller then that is on them.
Again directinput support ended in 2011. It is about to be 2016 and people are clamoring for developers to add backwards compatibility to their games to support an API that was deprecated over 4 years ago. Microsoft has released two versions of Windows since then that don't offer anything but legacy support for the API just so that people's old hardware and software don't stop working.
I realize that people don't want to admit that Sony doesn't give a shit about supporting Windows. Instead of pressuring Sony apparently pressure should be put on game developers.
This is already well defined. Your hardware either works right out of th.e box or has official drivers that make it work. Technically the PS4 controller is a "legacy" controller since it's using directinput. People don't demand developers support their Microsoft Sidewinders even though they were fantastic legacy controllers. There are hundreds of legacy controllers and the PS4 is the only one that has a significant group demanding backwards compatibility of devs
There are technically two things Sony needs to do to make this easy on developers (that is if they wanted to, and could make money from selling DS4's in the PC market):
1) Enable XInput support on the DS4 hardware. This would allow Windows to see it as a proper Xinput gamepad.
2) Provide a driver such that developers can tell easily if it is an XBONE/360 controller, DS4, or other (basically also a 360 controller). XInput doesn't have all of these different devices enumerated, it just assumes all gamepads are 360 gamepads basically.
I don't really see them spending resources on either of these things since they probably wouldn't make enough revenue to recoup that investment. And obviously Microsoft has no reason to provide this, since they basically own the PC gamepad market.
So no dice, pretty much...
VanquishUK
Member
Maybe they oughta thought about that when they spent 100$ million+ designing the first one
Baffles me how they spent that much money on designing a controller and they still managed to mess up the bumpers. How is that even possible...
That's just silly. They sell $60 controllers. They'd make plenty of money selling PS4 controllers to PC users. They reason they haven't done so is because they wanted people playing games on the PS4 and not their PCs. With the recent announcement of Sony supporting remote play on the PC we may finally see a shift in how they view the PC market.
This thread got overly complicated and huge.
First there are currently no plans from Sony releasing official drivers for the on pc for their DS3/DS4 controller.
While it currently works wired in some games you can't adjust anything and it's also very limited and is the worst way to use it on pc.
Then there are SCP drivers which once installed connects DS3 and DS4 controller as xinput devices and works perfectly in any game that would work with a normal 360 controller.
Use SCP Monitor + (my previous post has a link to it) also allows you to disconnect all controllers (instead of reserving them when they're disconnected), change stuff like latency, DS4 lights and much more.
This is what I personally use and works great and basically is an improved 360 controller.
DS4 for Windows is what I've heard the best for only DS4 use but I personally want to be able to use the same Bluetooth stick for DS3 and 4 and other than missing touchpad support I don't miss anything.
There's also a new version and updated version of SCP monitor but it misses something like SCP monitor + (doesn't work with it) but it looks like the dev is working on it.
That's the only reason why I didn't switched to it.
It will allow a lot more customisation and touchpad DS4 support.
Tl;dr
Games need to build an option to exchange xbox buttons with Playstation ones for those who need it.
Community drivers for DS4/DS3 are way better than actual 360/One driver and the Bluetooth stick is cheaper too.
Install those SCP drivers!
First there are currently no plans from Sony releasing official drivers for the on pc for their DS3/DS4 controller.
While it currently works wired in some games you can't adjust anything and it's also very limited and is the worst way to use it on pc.
Then there are SCP drivers which once installed connects DS3 and DS4 controller as xinput devices and works perfectly in any game that would work with a normal 360 controller.
Use SCP Monitor + (my previous post has a link to it) also allows you to disconnect all controllers (instead of reserving them when they're disconnected), change stuff like latency, DS4 lights and much more.
This is what I personally use and works great and basically is an improved 360 controller.
DS4 for Windows is what I've heard the best for only DS4 use but I personally want to be able to use the same Bluetooth stick for DS3 and 4 and other than missing touchpad support I don't miss anything.
There's also a new version and updated version of SCP monitor but it misses something like SCP monitor + (doesn't work with it) but it looks like the dev is working on it.
That's the only reason why I didn't switched to it.
It will allow a lot more customisation and touchpad DS4 support.
Tl;dr
Games need to build an option to exchange xbox buttons with Playstation ones for those who need it.
Community drivers for DS4/DS3 are way better than actual 360/One driver and the Bluetooth stick is cheaper too.
Install those SCP drivers!
deletethis123
Banned
Yeah, evil Microsoft, making a gamepad protocol that can be automatically detected by games and map everything on the fly, so that I don't have to press button 6.
Infernostew
Member
Far Cry 4 shows how it has to be done on PC. Fucking perfect.
Looks like Ubisoft did that with AC too.
My question is that if this still works with an 360 pad (DS4/DS3 with SCP drivers).
Far Cry 4 shows how it has to be done on PC. Fucking perfect.
It's beautiful...
I think so. This option only changes the button prompts on the screen. Playing The Phantom Pain with the XBOX prompts while using the DS4 was a bit annoying.
