Support NeoGAF

sn00zer · Jan 19, 2016

Really liked it a lot (I only played DE version)

loved Loved LOVED the environmental design. Really some of the most gorgeous stuff out there. Gameplay was a lot of fun. Really liked the simple inputs/ complex combos design philosophy, which let you get into the meat fairly quickly compared to other DMC which require almost a games length of time just to get the inputs down.

If I had a gun to my head DMC4 is the better game, but DmC is a far more interesting one. DMC4 is the definition of playing it safe, DmC is anything but. Really really hope DMC5 takes some influence from DmC especially in terms of environments and music integration.

OniBaka · Jan 19, 2016

Seyavesh said:
do the sound effects on dante and vergi's sword swings drive anyone else crazy in how awful they sound?

Yeah it drives me crazy and makes combo vids crap.

Anyway I enjoyed the game but didn't replay it much as it seemed like a chore to beat some enemies.

Pureauthor · Jan 19, 2016

Whenever I read DmC threads I'm always a little surprised at how few mentions threads are of the boss fights being really bad (except for the Final Boss).

InfiniteNine · Jan 19, 2016

Pureauthor said:
Whenever I read DmC threads I'm always a little surprised at how few mentions threads are of the boss fights being really bad (except for the Final Boss).

Well I usually only tell someone that if they ask. DmC DE's version of the final boss fight was legitimately awesome though! It doesn't make up for there not being any other worthwhile boss fights but it's a strong contender for one of the best fights in any DMC title.

GametimeUK · Jan 19, 2016

The best game in the franchise! It is just unbelievably fun to play. I prefer it in almost every way to the other games. It's a shame we won't see it continued. Ah, well.

Seyavesh · Jan 19, 2016

InfiniteNine said:
Well I usually only tell someone that if they ask. DmC DE's version of the final boss fight was legitimately awesome though! It doesn't make up for there not being any other worthwhile boss fights but it's a strong contender for one of the best fights in any DMC title.

what's the difference between the DE version and regular version?
regular DmC vergil and hollow vergil are both like, weaker versions of the non-DMD vergil 1 level fights which makes that quite surprising

InfiniteNine · Jan 19, 2016

Seyavesh said:
what's the difference between the DE version and regular version?
regular DmC vergil and hollow vergil are both like, weaker versions of the non-DMD vergil 1 level fights which makes that quite surprising

Honestly you'd have to ask someone whose completed both. I didn't make it very far into the original because of it's sluggish feel and weird feeling comboing so my point of reference ends pretty early on.
I really got into the Vergil fight though and was making me experiment a lot more than the rest of the game because of how satisfying fighting him was.

GuardianE · Jan 19, 2016

Seyavesh said:
what's the difference between the DE version and regular version?
regular DmC vergil and hollow vergil are both like, weaker versions of the non-DMD vergil 1 level fights which makes that quite surprising

From the changelist:
Vergil (Boss)
 Vergil now has the ability to parry aerial attacks.
 Vergil now has a ground response which sees him pull off the 3-hit yamato combo after
performing a ground parry.
 Vergil now has the ability to chain together helm breaker attacks (the number of attacks varies
depending on difficulty and the stage of the fight).
 Vergil now has the ability to chain together Killer bee attacks (the number of attacks varies
depending on difficulty and the stage of the fight).
 Reworked the setup of the fight, changing from using multiple phases to a single phase with
multiple states (Stage1 through to Stage6)
 Completely reworked the end of the fight. Once Vergil activates Doppelganger, the player must
simply defeat Vergil. Vergil does not ever enter a recovery state
 Removed the need for Dante to be in Devil Trigger in order to defeat Vergil.
 Removed Vergil's health regeneration while in Devil Trigger form.
 Removed Vergil's damage output boost while in Devil Trigger form.
 Removed Vergil's additional armour while in Devil Trigger form.
 Reduced the amount of purple (Devil Trigger) orbs that the Doppelganger gives you when hit by
around 80%
 Massively increased Vergil's health across all difficulty levels (to compensate for the player being
able to hit him a lot more frequently).
 Completely redesigned Vergil's defenses so that he can only block E&I shots and Revenant.
Dante can now hit and directly damage Vergil with any other attack.
 Completely redesigned the Doppelganger's defenses so that he can only block E&I shots and
Revenant. Dante can now hit the Doppelganger with any other attack.
 Completely redesigned the Doppelganger's patterns to match the timings of Vergil's new attacks.
 Changed the Doppelganger's response to Vergil parrying Dante's attack so that he leads the next
attack.
 Reworked Vergil's global damage table to match all of the other bosses.
 Removed Vergil's ability to teleport as a response to one of Dante's melee attacks. He must now
parry an attack before teleporting away.
 Changed the timing on the summoned sword attack so that Vergil fires the sword much quicker.
 Added a requirement to the summoned sword attack so that Vergil must be 11 metres or more
away from Dante before performing the attack.
 Added a lock-out to Vergil so that he cannot perform any other attack after choosing to attack with
a summoned sword.
 Tweaked the damage of the summoned sword attack to match the new global damage table.
 Changed the timing of the blistering sword attack so that Vergil fires the volley of sword much
quicker.
 Reduced the amount of time between each sword being fired when performing the blistering
sword attack.
 Added a requirement to the blistering sword attack so that Vergil must be 11 metres or more
away from Dante before performing the attack.
 Added a lock-out to Vergil so that he cannot perform any other attack after choosing to attack with
the blistering swords.
 Tweaked the damage of the blistering swords attack to match the new global damage table.
 Tweaked the recovery on the helmbreaker attack so that Vergil can chain them together more
effectively.
 Turned the strike on earlier in the helmbreaker attack so that Vergil isn't so exposed from the top.
 Changed the reaction animation on helmbreaker to fix a glitch when Dante takes damage from
the downward strike.
 Added a camera tweak to the helmbreaker to better frame it on screen.
 Tweaked the damage on the helmbreaker to make it a bit more powerful (and matched it to the
global damage table).
 Tweaked the damage of aerial flush to make it a bit stronger (and matched it to the global
damage table).
 Tweaked the damage of flush slightly (and matched it to the global damage table).
 Retimed the explosions that trail behind flyby so that Dante doesn't land on them when attacking
Vergil from behind.
 Tweaked the damage of Flyby (and matched it to the global damage table).
 Removed Vergil's ability to teleport out of the way of attacks randomly. He must now parry an
attack before responding to it.
 Added a new blocking volume around the boss fight arena to stop Dante, Vergil and the
Doppelganger getting stuck on the outside geometry.
 Moved the electrical pole (including the wires) to the outside of the arena so it doesn't get in the
way of combat.
 Fixed 'safe spot' exploit, where standing in a particular position during the fight would make it
impossible for Vergil to hit you.
 When a boss authors an attack via the phase manager, we now clear out any facts regarding how
many times they've been hit recently (this helps to significantly reduce an issue where Vergil
would immediately parry after performing a combo).

Vanilla DmC Vergil was garbage tier. Rahni Tucker stepped it up for DmCDE to improve him significantly.

lowhighkang_LHK · Jan 19, 2016

Get the HD Collection on PS3 (or xbox 360). Best way to play DMC1 and DMC3:SE. Know that the PC version of DMC3:SE is beyond fucked up.

DMC

efinitive Edition is the console version remastered at 1080p and 60 fps. I don't think the PC ever got the Definitive Edition with all the gameplay tweeks unless their is a mod that puts in everything. Regardless, the console versions are 1080p / 60 fps.

DMC4 vanilla is great on PC. But apparently DMC4:SE isn't on PC? I'm not sure about that, maybe somebody can confirm.

Regardless DMC4:SE on consoles is 1080p / 60 fps with all content, characters, bonus modes included.

GuardianE · Jan 19, 2016

lowhighkang_LHK said:
Get the HD Collection on PS3 (or xbox 360). Best way to play DMC1 and DMC3:SE. Know that the PC version of DMC3:SE is beyond fucked up.

DMCefinitive Edition is the console version remastered at 1080p and 60 fps. I don't think the PC ever got the Definitive Edition with all the gameplay tweeks unless their is a mod that puts in everything. Regardless, the console versions are 1080p / 60 fps.

DMC4 vanilla is great on PC. But apparently DMC4:SE isn't on PC? I'm not sure about that, maybe somebody can confirm.

Regardless DMC4:SE is 1080p / 60 fps with all content, characters, bonus modes included.

DMC4SE is definitely on PC. And people have had some success in getting DMC3SE PC to work properly with some aggressive patching.

lowhighkang_LHK · Jan 19, 2016

GuardianE said:
DMC4SE is definitely on PC. And people have had some success in getting DMC3SE PC to work properly with some aggressive patching.

Yeah but nonetheless the alternative is the HD collection which is great and doesn't need "aggressive patching."

Far as I'm concerned the game should be removed from steam and Capcom could try again buy putting the HD Collection on steam proper.

DMC3:SE is effectively the best 3rd person action game on the steam library...and that port is the treatment it gets. Fuck the fuck right off Capcom. Do it right or don't do it at all. It sets the wrong precedent.

I've heard conflicting reports on DMC4:SE on PC, I'm going to need more feedback regarding this before I can come to any conclusions.

http://steamspy.com/search.php?s=devil+may+cry

As you can see, DMC3 has a user score of 57% because it's a shit port on PC. DMC4:SE has a user score of 91% so maybe it is a decent port. I'm sure if it was buggy steam users wouldn't rate it so highly.

Neonep · Jan 19, 2016

I'm curious as to why they chose to have DmC vanilla run at 30 fps when all of the previous titles ran at 60 fps? Was it because of the unreal engine?

InfiniteNine · Jan 19, 2016

Neonep said:
I'm curious as to why they chose to have DmC vanilla run at 30 fps when all of the previous titles ran at 60 fps? Was it because of the unreal engine?

60FPS with unreal takes a lot of optimization or downgrading to achieve so it was never realistically going to be 60FPS on the PS360.

Amirnol · Jan 19, 2016

How does this game compare to something like Metal Gear Rising, gameplay wise?

Neonep · Jan 19, 2016

InfiniteNine said:
60FPS with unreal takes a lot of optimization or downgrading to achieve so it was never realistically going to be 60FPS on the PS360.

I remember reading that given the decisions made they had no choice but to use unreal because MT framework was all in Japanese so NT couldn't use it. Also Unreal was the only engine NT knew how to use. Talk about boxing yourself in.

Weiss · Jan 19, 2016

Amirnol said:
How does this game compare to something like Metal Gear Rising, gameplay wise?

It's the deepest, most complex western action game I've ever played, and this is the regular version without all the DE improvements.

It's not as deep, rewarding or precise as MGR, but there's a lot more thought put into it than something like God of War.

Snacks the sober sea lion · Jan 19, 2016

lowhighkang_LHK said:
Yeah but nonetheless the alternative is the HD collection which is great and doesn't need "aggressive patching."

Far as I'm concerned the game should be removed from steam and Capcom could try again buy putting the HD Collection on steam proper.

DMC3:SE is effectively the best 3rd person action game on the steam library...and that port is the treatment it gets. Fuck the fuck right off Capcom. Do it right or don't do it at all. It sets the wrong precedent.

I've heard conflicting reports on DMC4:SE on PC, I'm going to need more feedback regarding this before I can come to any conclusions.

http://steamspy.com/search.php?s=devil+may+cry

As you can see, DMC3 has a user score of 57% because it's a shit port on PC. DMC4:SE has a user score of 91% so maybe it is a decent port. I'm sure if it was buggy steam users wouldn't rate it so highly.

It is buggy, but it's never mentioned for 2 reasons: 1. most of the Steam reviews are just "the time has come" and "Motivated" jokes from people who bought the game and immediately recommended it, 2. no matter how hard Capcom tried, they couldn't quite destroy the game. It has motion blur and Depth of Field that can only be turned off by hex editing the exe and in general runs literally only half as well as the original. But, since the engine is so forgiving, half of 300 FPS is still 150 FPS, so lots of people didn't notice. The bigger problem is that, like I said, it uses the DX10 version of the engine that doesn't work properly and can't be fixed on operating systems past Windows 7. The game has never been patched either, so that really doesn't bode well.

DMC3 is a spectacularly bad port, but it does actually "work." You need to remove a ton of sound files, which is absurd, you have to use Xpadder/ joy2key for the triggers because the game doesn't recognize them, and you'll have to edit a notepad file to set up your controls using the exact name of your controller as it's displayed when looking at your hardware in Windows. It's really cumbersome, but you can have the game running at 60 FPS at your desktop's resolution. Still pretty shameful, but I guess the game is nowhere near RE4's popularity, so it's not getting a proper version.

Seyavesh · Jan 19, 2016

Snacks the sober sea lion said:
DMC3 is a spectacularly bad port, but it does actually "work." You need to remove a ton of sound files, which is absurd, you have to use Xpadder/ joy2key for the triggers because the game doesn't recognize them, and you'll have to edit a notepad file to set up your controls using the exact name of your controller as it's displayed when looking at your hardware in Windows. It's really cumbersome, but you can have the game running at 60 FPS at your desktop's resolution. Still pretty shameful, but I guess the game is nowhere near RE4's popularity, so it's not getting a proper version.

if you use style switcher you don't have to do any of that- when i installed style switcher and did the delta patching and whatnot the game basically just functioned as if it were a competent port.
it's kind of incredible how much of a fix-all it is (besides on minor thing: unfortunately it seems the guy who made it could never figure out how to get the shadows to work properly so they're just blobs instead of defined shadows)

NinjaBoiX · Jan 19, 2016

It's the best game in the series by far.

They took the combat that the series is known for and tied it with better art design, some much needed variety and a story I actually gave a fuck about.

The music is shocking though, such a disappointment for an NT production.

Pyramid head · Jan 19, 2016

ArjanN said:
I can't help but be somewhat amused by how fans of DMC mostly brought that on themselves by being hyperbolically negative about DmC, which despite being flawed and a disappointing DMC sequel, was still a pretty good acton game.

Can you point out any specific hyperboly?

"Bu-bu-but white hair" doesn't cut it.

Was it the reaction to the original teaser? That trailer was cringy as fuck to be fair.

Was it the reaction to the announcement of Ninja Theory's envolvement? DMC in the hands of a studio whose previous games (Heavenly Sword and Enslaved) featured D and F tier combat respectively.

Was it NT's constant antagonising of the series existing fanbase in the run up to release, including their claims of how 'old' Dante was gay anime shit for Japanese nerds, and how their Dante was "cool" and "grounded" for a "western" audience? Who the fuck wants to use "grounded" as a pro bullet point in a Devil May Cry game?

Was it the response to the Dumbed down gameplay evident in the demo?

Was it the response to the full game in which fans of the original games showed they had more than 'given the game a shot' and had in fact played the shit out of it and wereable to give reasoned, well articulated arguments and breakdowns of the games failings?

Was it the response to trash articles on industy websites which literally accused fans of "killing the game out of spite"? Again, ignoring the probablity that the majority of the games poor sales figures actually came from those most critical of it.

hodgy100 · Jan 19, 2016

The combat is serviceable yet it doesn't hold a candle to previous iterations of the series. the gameplay is overall fun through with great music and visual design. some good boss battles and some bad ones. The story, characters and script are all trash though.

RazMaTaz · Jan 19, 2016

Cant say I agree, while I did enjoy the DE on PS4, but in no way near as much fun as DMC4. I dont think anyone wouldve minded if both titles co existed i.e DMC and DmC, and DmC did have alot of nice qualities that I wish existed in DMC, but regardless, it could not hold a candle to DMC. I can only hope Capcom takes those ideas and incooporate them into DMC5.

Romars202129 · Jan 19, 2016

I played 4 after DmC, and it made me so confused as to what the hell hardcore dmc fans are on.
It's great. I hate the story, most of the characters, but it's great.

Sesha · Jan 19, 2016

I wish Ninja Theory didn't shut their forums down because I want to tell Rahni Tucker how awesome she is. She went from being completely clueless about combat design to plain killing it with DmC DE and some of the changes like the style ranking and the tweaks to Vergil.
I want someone to give her a team and a solid budget and to make an action game. She's supposedly working on something now but we haven't heard anything from them besides Hellblade.

GuardianE said:
To me, the irony lies in peoples' ignorant and baseless bashing of the DMC fanbase for being supposedly ignorant and baseless. It'd be pretty hilarious if it wasn't so tiring. "White hair lol" wasn't the issue 6 months after the reveal, but that's what people continue to toss around even today. And the second most popular accusation that we "didn't play the game" or "give it a chance" is ironic because most DMC diehards probably played DmC more than the people defending it.

Funny you should say that. I remember one poster among the people showing up in every DmC-related thread to defend the game and shit on the old series constantly, who mentioned in a post months after the game's release that he hadn't played the game. Maybe he has by now.

AgentLampshade said:
It wouldn't matter. People have had journalists like Jim Sterling (an otherwise great guy) stoke the fires, blame the fans and try to make it an "us vs them" mentality since the game was revealed back in 2010. It's made DMC conversations a minefield and now nobody can have decent discussions about the series (both sides of it) without it devolving into...well, this essentially.

Did Jim really stoke the fires like that? I do know he was positive about the game, but I could only remember his review when shat on fans due to all the hate he got.

viHuGi · Jan 19, 2016

I love this type of games, this one was amazing.

Can't wait for NieR, DMC5 AND GOD OF WAR!

Sir Ilpalazzo · Jan 19, 2016

NinjaBoiX said:
It's the best game in the series by far.

They took the combat that the series is known for and tied it with better art design, some much needed variety and a story I actually gave a fuck about.

The music is shocking though, such a disappointment for an NT production.

Did they, though?

danmaku · Jan 19, 2016

Sesha said:
I wish Ninja Theory didn't shut their forums down because I want to tell Rahni Tucker how awesome she is. She went from being completely clueless about combat design to plain killing it with DmC DE and some of the changes like the style ranking and the tweaks to Vergil.
I want someone to give her a team and a solid budget and to make an action game. She's supposedly working on something now but we haven't heard anything from them besides Hellblade.

Hellblade is an action game, isn't it? I think they have all they need to do a great game, after their experience with DmC. Hopefully, with a better story (the premise is better already).

correojon · Jan 19, 2016

I enjoyed the game a lot, but it´s nowhere near DMC3 or 4. The combat is really simplified and it´s too easy to stay in the air forever. Also, the weapons aren´t distinct enough (apart from the flying blades), they should´ve really put more thought into them. It´s a great game, but can´t be compared with DMC3 & 4, those are on a whole different level.

Sesha · Jan 19, 2016

danmaku said:
Hellblade is an action game, isn't it? I think they have all they need to do a great game, after their experience with DmC. Hopefully, with a better story (the premise is better already).

It is, but I'm not sure Rahni Tucker is involved. There was some talk about her heading a project of her own.

GooeyHeat · Jan 19, 2016

I only ever played the original release, so I'm unaware of just how much the DE changes help the game (though looking at the change log makes it seem like it basically redefines the mechanics completely, so maybe if I can pick it up cheap I'll give it a shot now that I have a PS4). I found the game to be sluggish and simplistic, and I absolutely hated the implementation of Devil Trigger. The bosses were exactly the kinds of bosses I can't stand in action games where you're basically just triggering various cutscenes in order. I can't in good faith recommend the original as a worthy character action game.

The environments and their transformations were pretty neat, at least, and the platforming, though simplistic, was way better than the clunky messes that the old DMC games insisted on forcing you through every now and then.

My biggest thoughts on this game are actually related to the characters and cutscenes, which I tended to find inconsistent. Anytime the game tried to take itself seriously and be More Edgy (sniping Lillith's baby, Mundus sex, etc.), I found it nothing but insufferable. However, I did find some of the juvenile, swear-filled banter hilarious precisely because it was so dumb, which is similar to the reasons why I like a lot of cutscenes from the original series. My personal favorite was probably when Mundus transformed into his giant demon form and bellowed "I am Mundus...!" and Dante just yelled from the ground "YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE!" It's just so silly that it cracked me up.

Character action games generally work best when the atmosphere embraces the sheer ridiculousness already present in the gameplay, and DmC did that sometimes, but not enough.

grandwizard · Jan 19, 2016

Definitive Edition was a much better game. Vanilla was flat out bad with some of the worst boss fights in action games (Don't care how they look, it's about how they play.).

Sure was funny seeing the DmC fanbase try to rationalize admitting that the DE was a far better designed game while also having to acknowledge that literally every change that was made came out of those 'white hair whiners' that criticized the original release so much.

SystemBug · Jan 19, 2016

grandwizard said:
Definitive Edition was a much better game. Vanilla was flat out bad with some of the worst boss fights in action games (Don't care how they look, it's about how they play.).

Sure was funny seeing the DmC fanbase try to rationalize admitting that the DE was a far better designed game while also having to acknowledge that literally every change that was made came out of those 'white hair whiners' that criticized the original release so much.

DmC vanilla was not flat out bad.

MrFatCat · Jan 19, 2016

NinjaBoiX said:
It's the best game in the series by far.

My child, please tell me you are joking.

I'm tired. I can't make a 500 rant post about this game anymore. i've done so so many times back then, on many forums, fanbases... battlefield filled with rage and fanboy's tears. I want to rant again, but i can't, i'm burned out.

Don't make me remember the past. Don't let the rage consume me once more, don't make me...do it...again...it...hurts...must...resist...urge...stop...rage...Donte...aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!

Seven4sses · Jan 19, 2016

myco666 said:
Noisia? I remember that mission having only old Combichrist songs such as Get Your Body Beat and Sent to Destroy. It has been a while since I played it though so might remember wrong.

Noisia made the boss themes for sure. Most of the soundtrack was done by him, but I know Combichrist did a good amount as well. I'm sure Combichrist handles some of the battle themes in between for sure.

..... · Jan 19, 2016

Didnt like what they did with the characters or the story though i felt its gameplay was better than the likes of GoW(most likely due to Capcoms involvement). DE corrected a lot of the issues of the original DmC which was good as NT actually listened to feedback.
Gameplay stll isnt anywhere near as deep/intricate as 4/SE though.

It's the best game in the series by far

lol.

Snacks the sober sea lion · Jan 19, 2016

The Angel/ Demon hooks made it too easy to stay in the air forever. I think the next game should strike a balance between not being too easy like DmC, without requiring hours of jump-cancel practice to even begin doing advanced combos like DMC4 asked.

Seyavesh said:
if you use style switcher you don't have to do any of that- when i installed style switcher and did the delta patching and whatnot the game basically just functioned as if it were a competent port.
it's kind of incredible how much of a fix-all it is (besides on minor thing: unfortunately it seems the guy who made it could never figure out how to get the shadows to work properly so they're just blobs instead of defined shadows)

I could never get that thing to work even though it always told me the patching was successful.

Led_Zeppelin · Jan 19, 2016

I hated the game. The worse in the series if we don't include DMC 2. Hated specially the music, characters, story, boss fights and how easy it was.

hollerphonix · Jan 19, 2016

I am a huge fan of the series whether it be dmc or devil may cry. That said dmc did nothing to upset me other than how it originally ran on last gen consoles. If I was worried about super sensible story telling I was into the wrong series. Yeah, it's great but holy shit it's anime crazy half the time. So needless to say I loved dmc for being as batshit as it is. There are a few spots where its cringey (I.e. mop wig, demon sex) but overall nothing that seemed incredibly out of place. Yeah upon reveal it looked like they were mining the super edgy thing but in the grand scheme it wasn't really doing that, or if it was it didn't try that hard.
Bottom line is with both sects of the series it's all about gameplay and dmc:de nailed it in a big way for me.

Sesha · Jan 19, 2016

Snacks the sober sea lion said:
The Angel/ Demon hooks made it too easy to stay in the air forever. I think the next game should strike a balance between not being too easy like DmC, without requiring hours of jump-cancel practice to even begin doing advanced combos like DMC4 asked.

Depends what you mean by "advanced combos". They've already addressed the question of air time with Vergil in DMC4SE, as his Air Trick borrows from his DmC counterpart and allows him to stay in the air indefinitely. Itsuno has also mentioned that he liked the focus on air combat in DmC so more aerial options is probably going to be something they focus on going forward. For me it's okay if playing as Vergil, Nero or even Trish is easier than Dante, as long as Dante stays true to his DMC4 self in terms of depth.

My general solution for aerial combat would be adding more aerial combos like Aerial Rave for each character, along with adding more mid-air moves like aerial Stinger. Basically the way Bayonetta does it by giving each command move an aerial counterpart, but the way it differs from Bayonetta would be the aerial version not having identical properties or being the same exact move as the ground version.

Snacks the sober sea lion · Jan 19, 2016

Sesha said:
Depends what you mean by "advanced combos". They've already addressed the question of air time with Vergil in DMC4SE, as his Air Trick borrows from his DmC counterpart and allows him to stay in the air indefinitely. Itsuno has also mentioned that he liked the focus on air combat in DmC so more aerial options is probably going to be something they focus on going forward. For me it's okay if playing as Vergil, Nero or even Trish is easier than Dante, as long as Dante stays true to his DMC4 self in terms of depth.

My general solution for aerial combat would be adding more aerial combos like Aerial Rave for each character, along with adding more mid-air moves like aerial Stinger. Basically the way Bayonetta does it by giving each command move an aerial counterpart, but the way it differs from Bayonetta would be the aerial version not having identical properties or being the same exact move as the ground version.

I was thinking of how difficult it is to learn Dante in DMC4. But DMC4 Vergil was a pretty good adjustment. He felt kind of limited (Force Edge barely had any moves) and heavily-reliant on Summoned Swords and jump cancel in DMC3, but in DMC4 he's really only limited by the speed of your hands and how creative you can get. Something more like that for every character, but without the overpowered i-frames and absurd damage.

Sesha · Jan 19, 2016

Snacks the sober sea lion said:
I was thinking of how difficult it is to learn Dante in DMC4. But DMC4 Vergil was a pretty good adjustment. He felt kind of limited (Force Edge barely had any moves) and heavily-reliant on Summoned Swords and jump cancel in DMC3, but in DMC4 he's really only limited by the speed of your hands and how creative you can get. Something more like that for every character, but without the overpowered i-frames and absurd damage.

I don't want them to make Dante's gameplay easier like they did Vergil. The way Dante plays is part of what makes him such a fun character. Giving him something like Vergil's all-cancelling infinite airtime Air Trick or Nero's Devil Bringer would ruin the character's appeal.

Ideally they should get rid of the style-switching system. Dante really doesn't need it to have an expansive move set. My preferred solution is to streamline the Styles by integrating it more naturally with Dante's default move set. Have Swordmaster moves use the standard attack button with additional inputs, same with Gunslinger for the gunfire button, and give Royalguard and Trickster dedicated buttons. That way, Royalguard becomes a standard block and Trickster becomes a standard dodge.

Triangle / Y = Melee / Swordmaster
Square / X = Projectile / Gunslinger
Square + X / X + A = Gunslinger
Circle / B = Royalguard
X / A = Jump
R1 / RB = Lock-on
R2 / RT = Trickster
L1 / LB = Melee weapon switch
L2 / LT = Projectile weapon switch
D-Pad Up = Devil Trigger

Of course, players will be able to adjust any buttons they way they want. It would even allow for double button mappings, and vice-versa. The double button for Gunslinger can be mapped to a single button like DmC, making it just like the Gunslinger button of old.
I think this is a default control scheme that works both for casual and hardcore players, without sacrificing any moves or any buttons for some alternate control scheme. Considering most hardcore DMC players change their button configuration, it doesn't really matter which button is Devil Trigger or Trickster or Royalguard by default.

Others have suggested alternate systems. Dahbomb has suggested a system that turns L1 / LB by default into a modifier that changes each of the colored face buttons into a Style button. So Triangle / Y is Swordmaster, Square / X is Gunslinger, etc.

Every system has their flaws and their strengths. I personally want to avoid having extra buttons for something that should be relatively simple. But either way, I think the standard DMC4 system is outdated and limits the combat system's potential. DmCs Angel/Devil system was a poor solution as it was deeply flawed both in conception and execution.

TribladeX · Jan 23, 2016

Neonep said:
I remember reading that given the decisions made they had no choice but to use unreal because MT framework was all in Japanese so NT couldn't use it. Also Unreal was the only engine NT knew how to use. Talk about boxing yourself in.

(Ex. NT designer here, worked on DmC & DE)

Sorry about the late reply, I don't get much free time to browse these forums these days, let alone actually reply. Anyway...

You're correct about the decision to not use the MT framework. But Unreal wasn't the only engine available to us for DmC. The three main factors for the choice in using Unreal were (to the best of my knowledge): 1) It was already being used to make Enslaved (so there was already plenty of established, custom tech) 2) Unreal's really good at getting stuff up and running really quickly and 3) Everyone knew how to use it already.

But you're wrong about 'being boxed in'. Bear in mind that before Enslaved, NT actually wrote their own engine for Heavenly Sword (long before I joined), but despite it being created by NT, Sony own all of the code, so it couldn't be used again for a future game. But NT are constantly evaluating new engines between projects to see if another makes more sense. For Infinity 2.0/3.0 we had to switch to using Avalanche's own engine, Octane, and Fightback was made with Unity, so it wasn't like they weren't able to if it made sense / had no choice. But it's a time consuming experience as everyone gets up to speed with new tools. In most cases that time is better spent actually building a game.

Sesha · Jan 23, 2016

TribladeX said:
(Ex. NT designer here, worked on DmC & DE)

Sorry about the late reply, I don't get much free time to browse these forums these days, let alone actually reply. Anyway...

You're correct about the decision to not use the MT framework. But Unreal wasn't the only engine available to us for DmC. The three main factors for the choice in using Unreal were (to the best of my knowledge): 1) It was already being used to make Enslaved (so there was already plenty of established, custom tech) 2) Unreal's really good at getting stuff up and running really quickly and 3) Everyone knew how to use it already.

But you're wrong about 'being boxed in'. Bear in mind that before Enslaved, NT actually wrote their own engine for Heavenly Sword (long before I joined), but despite it being created by NT, Sony own all of the code, so it couldn't be used again for a future game. But NT are constantly evaluating new engines between projects to see if another makes more sense. For Infinity 2.0/3.0 we had to switch to using Avalanche's own engine, Octane, and Fightback was made with Unity, so it wasn't like they weren't able to if it made sense / had no choice. But it's a time consuming experience as everyone gets up to speed with new tools. In most cases that time is better spent actually building a game.

There's a lot of misconceptions and confusion regarding DmC's development I'm afraid, resulting from a combination of people's interpretations of interviews, what people in a discussion will know about game development, and people's assumptions of what the most likely scenario was. Often informed by a negative bias against you guys, sadly.
FWIW, I think you guys probably did the right decision and did the best with what you could. Maybe choosing something like CryEngine would have been a better choice, but it's possible some of the things I like about DmC wouldn't have been implemented because of a lack of time. Nor is there any guarantee performance would have been significantly better. And I think it was better that you couldn't use the Heavenly Sword engine, considering how poorly Heavenly Sword ran.

Anyway, I appreciate you dropping in and sharing that with us. If you have more interesting tidbits about DmC's development that wouldn't breach any contracts, please, share it if you'd like.

TribladeX · Jan 23, 2016

Sesha said:
There's a lot of misconceptions and confusion regarding DmC's development I'm afraid, resulting from a combination of people's interpretations of interviews, what people in a discussion will know about game development, and people's assumptions of what the most likely scenario was. Often informed by a negative bias against you guys, sadly.

Oh, believe me, I know ;-) I've read pretty much all of the DmC threads over the years and the information that's popped up (here and on the web) has ranged from crazily inaccurate to actually very spot on. But most of it just gets lost in a storm of people's feelings about DMC vs DmC and, after a while, it's hard for people to tell what's actually correct any more.

Sesha said:
FWIW, I think you guys probably did the right decision and did the best with what you could. Maybe choosing something like CryEngine would have been a better choice, but it's possible some of the things I like about DmC wouldn't have been implemented because of a lack of time. Nor is there any guarantee performance would have been significantly better. And I think it was better that you couldn't use the Heavenly Sword engine, considering how poorly Heavenly Sword ran.

For the record about the performance (mainly the 30hz choice), the choice of engine wasn't the deciding factor. Right from the start the decision was made to go with 30hz and bump up the game's visuals. Although DMC4 is a fantastic looking game (even to this day) and -- and this is totally my opinion here -- although I actually prefer its clean look to DmC's aesthetic, DMC4's environments are incredibly static. The people in charge weighed up what you could achieve in a 60hz engine and what you could achieve in a 30hz engine and decided that having a world that could shift and move and break apart was more important for the game. Changing to a 'better' engine (better is extremely subjective in game development - if one engine was better than all of the others, everyone would use it) wouldn't have changed that decision (and no engine out there was going to put out DmC's level of visuals at locked 60hz on the PS3).

Obviously it's not a decision that everyone would agree with and it took a lot of tests and proof-of-concepts that you could still get the essence of a DMC game at 30hz before Capcom even signed off on it (I have a feeling this is where that 'the feel of 60fps' marketing line may have spawned from).

Sesha said:
Anyway, I appreciate you dropping in and sharing that with us. If you have more interesting tidbits about DmC's development that wouldn't breach any contracts, please, share it if you'd like.

No problem. I've kinda been meaning to throw my two cents in here for years, but just never got around to it.

Other tidbits? I've probably got hundreds ;-) If something comes up that I feel I can contribute to (and I have the time) I'll see what I can do. If you've got something specific in mind, you can always throw it my way. No promises though

grandwizard · Jan 23, 2016

TribladeX said:
Other tidbits? I've probably got hundreds ;-) If something comes up that I feel I can contribute to (and I have the time) I'll see what I can do. If you've got something specific in mind, you can always throw it my way. No promises though

Can you explain what NT was thinking with this?

deriks · Jan 23, 2016

Probably the most solid 8/10 game ever made. Have tons of fun, but finished only two times and I really don't care going back.

Narroo · Jan 23, 2016

PeterVenkman said:
Yeah because most of us are tired of explaining repeat points to drive by comments like the one you made. Take some time to read up on the original release - it had a 30fps lock, no hard lock on system and a simplified control scheme. it also had color coded enemies that didn't encourage varied gameplay, and it had a broken style meter that was too easy to top off.

On top of all that, NT and Capcom took a huge dump on the OG fan base. All of these links exist, I'm sorry I'm not in the mood to drudge them back up. There's plenty of legitimate criticism on the game that you chose to block out in favor of making a shit
Generalization.

Luckily, both SE editions moved the gameplay on line with the OG series, so things are looking up. Plus, the DE of DmC removes a lot of complaints I mentioned above, so if you can handle the (imo) nauseating story and characters, the gameplay has been improved

Don't forget there was an over 2 year gap between SE and the original release. Two years is a long time, and the original release was a full out, $60, big name release. For two years DmC was a terrible game that alienated people. Making a "Special Edition" two years after the original release on a new platform is not suddenly going to make people forget the original existed.

TribladeX · Jan 23, 2016

grandwizard said:
Can you explain what NT was thinking with this?

Haha

Of all the things...

"Ninja Theory" wasn't thinking anything with that. That's a slide from a presentation that Alex 'Talexi' Taini gave at GDC 2013 called "The Art Direction of DMC Devil May Cry" (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1017717/The-Art-Direction-of-DmC).

It's actually quite close to the start of the presentation and -- it seems to me that -- it was aimed as a little light humour in response to Capcom's question: "Imagine Dante in a western movie". It's worth a watch. Alex actually goes on to say he thinks Uncle Dante's look is cool, but wasn't what they -- or Capcom -- were after.

This is unfortunately one of those things though (like so many others) that got blown out of proportion. I think someone posted that exact image above and said something like "This is what Ninja Theory thinks of DMC4" and boom... it's suddenly fact.

Sesha · Jan 23, 2016

TribladeX said:
Oh, believe me, I know ;-) I've read pretty much all of the DmC threads over the years and the information that's popped up (here and on the web) has ranged from crazily inaccurate to actually very spot on. But most of it just gets lost in a storm of people's feelings about DMC vs DmC and, after a while, it's hard for people to tell what's actually correct any more.

The PR and media storm was always the worst for me. I often felt bad for you guys, meaning the actual team. You guys weren't never to blame for DMC5 not happening. I felt equally as much for my fellow fans, the ones that truly cared about DMC and struggled to make sense of the circumstances. Looking back I realize a Capcom-made DMC directed by Itsuno wasn't an option and I think things for the most part ended as optimally as it could.

For the record about the performance (mainly the 30hz choice), the choice of engine wasn't the deciding factor. Right from the start the decision was made to go with 30hz and bump up the game's visuals. Although DMC4 is a fantastic looking game (even to this day) and -- and this is totally my opinion here -- although I actually prefer its clean look to DmC's aesthetic, DMC4's environments are incredibly static. The people in charge weighed up what you could achieve in a 60hz engine and what you could achieve in a 30hz engine and decided that having a world that could shift and move and break apart was more important for the game. Changing to a 'better' engine (better is extremely subjective in game development - if one engine was better than all of the others, everyone would use it) wouldn't have changed that decision (and no engine out there was going to put out DmC's level of visuals at locked 60hz on the PS3).

Obviously it's not a decision that everyone would agree with and it took a lot of tests and proof-of-concepts that you could still get the essence of a DMC game at 30hz before Capcom even signed off on it (I have a feeling this is where that 'the feel of 60fps' marketing line may have spawned from).

Ah yes. I keep forgetting that (the reason for 30hz). I've never worked in the industry and I'm very much an outsider so my mindset and knowledge base is strictly amateur.

As for the environments. I don't really like DmC's or DMC4's environments. DmC's visual design was too messy, and the colors were too garish and saturated in my mind. But conceptually I like the idea of urban settings turned surreal fantasy land. DMC4, I think looks pretty, but I don't like the clean aesthetic. The environments look flat and is visually dull. They don't feel lived in, like they should. They feel like a student modeling project, albeit a very pretty and professionally made one.
I could talk at lengths about both and what I'd like to see in a DMC game, but I won't.

No problem. I've kinda been meaning to throw my two cents in here for years, but just never got around to it.

Other tidbits? I've probably got hundreds ;-) If something comes up that I feel I can contribute to (and I have the time) I'll see what I can do. If you've got something specific in mind, you can always throw it my way. No promises though

I hear you. Just ignore everything you can't or won't answer. Bear in mind I'm have no interviewing experience and I'm sick atm, so my questions might be poorly phrased.

Could you tell us if anything changed conceptually about the story, characters, combat, etc. between the initial reveal at TGS '10 and the first gameplay trailer? Obviously the first few trailers we saw were very early and we kinda got a glimpse into what happens during a development process, but I wonder if the reception to the first trailer impacted that process at all. The TGS teaser implied that the story would be even more harsh in tone, with Dante being captured and tortured, and that it would explore more of Dante's past.

Could you share any particulars about Itsuno and team's involvement during development and about Itsuno's "teaching program", so-to-speak? Anything we haven't heard in interviews, like ideas he might have supplied.

What was your role at Ninja Theory and the DmC team?

Anything particular you can point to that you contributed to the game? (apologies if this sounds harsh for some reason. It's not intended that way)

What was the process behind adopting the new control scheme, meaning the angel/demon system, the single button launcher, the dedicated dodge button, gun moves be tied to the gunfire button?

Kind of a addendum to the above, but was there a desire from Capcom to do away with the style system, or at least simplify it, in general? Or, assuming it was Capcom pushing for it, was it because it was a different universe that they wanted the way Dante's powers/skills worked played out to reflect his character/background?

Was there ever any discussion about adding command moves (directional inputs) to the launcher command?

Who came up with Reverse Rainstorm and Ricoshot? Because Ricoshot in particular, being a firearm charge shot move that juggles and has just-frame capabilities, is brilliant.

Was there a conscious decision bring back the old Quicksilver and Doppelgänger styles by turning them into Dante's and Vergil's Devil Triggers?

Who came up with the idea of Secret Missions being found in the menu?

Likewise with the ability to quit and continue mid-mission from the most recent checkpoint?

Likewise with gameplay speed increasing by 10% during S-rank and above?

Are there any notable things that were left on the cutting room floor, either early or later on? Levels, enemies, bosses, weapons, modes, etc.

How did DmC DE come about? Was it something that started on NT's or Capcom's end?

Where did the ideas for the toggle option for lock-on, timer option for Bloody Palace, and Must Style mode for DmC DE come from? I'm asking partly because the only person as far as I can tell to even mention a Must Style mode was a NeoGAF regular and a mainstay of the DMC fan base across the web named Dahbomb. He mentioned there was talk about it during the DMC3 and DMC4 days on GameFAQs, but there is no easy way of digging those up. As far as I know, there were no "Must Style" mods in existence before DmC DE. Gods Must Die I believe came from the DMC4 mod and that Rahni Tucker or someone else addressed that.

Was there any feedback or ideas you wanted but weren't able to implement into DmC DE?

Did anyone at any point suggest a Boss Rush mode?

Were Lady or Trish ever suggested to appear at any point?

The DmC comic focused on Vergil suggests that Mundus and Sparda were two of four demon lords, which sounds like an old fan concept based on DMC2's story, and was never hinted at in the actual game. Was this a story idea that was meant to be explored more but was consciously left out?

Are there any ideas or changes you guys wanted to make for DmC2, if there was any?

Any hint as to what DmC2's story would have been?

That is all I can think of for now. Please ask if something needs clarification.

TribladeX · Jan 23, 2016

Well, this is certainly keeping me busy

Part #1

Sesha said:
I hear you. Just ignore everything you can't or won't answer. Bear in mind I'm have no interviewing experience and I'm sick atm, so my questions might be poorly phrased.

Seems good to me

I hope you feel better.

I re-ordered everything to make sense for how I wanted to answer them. I'll try and cover everything.

Sesha said:
What was your role at Ninja Theory and the DmC team?

Sesha said:
Anything particular you can point to that you contributed to the game? (apologies if this sounds harsh for some reason. It's not intended that way)

My job title was 'Technical Designer' (which means I'm a designer with scripting/programming skills too). I joined Ninja Theory in August '09, where they were in the middle of Enslaved. DmC was in pre-production. Around October I got pulled from Enslaved and put on DmC (mostly because I expressed an interest in doing so, being a huge fan of the series). I then worked on DmC right through to release (Jan '13). During that time I:

Helped with some of the initial combat/enemy design.
Helped prototype some of the early gameplay mechanics like Angel lift, Demon pull, Glide etc
I also built the very first versions of the Style Rank system (there were a lot of them), then came back to it later in the project and designed and implemented the final version that shipped in the game.
Helped design and prototype the Hunter boss fight.
Helped design and build the Succubus boss fight.
Designed and built the mission complete flow (ranking screen).
Designed the meta game surrounding how the game keeps track of your items, keys, souls etc.
Helped design and built a lot of the frontend and in-game UI.
Designed all 21 of the secret missions. Built 18 of them (everything except the timed races).
Designed and implemented the game's stats system and the concept art unlocking system that it drove.
Designed and implemented the game's achievements and leaderboards.

Then I helped out with the Vergil DLC, but I wasn't on that project the entire time. I mostly did a lot of the same stuff again (UI, achievements, leaderboards etc).

When DmC

E came around, I got asked to be the designer on NT's side of the project (there were other designers over at QLOC). For DE there was an outline of a plan, but mostly it was me designing and implementing the changes we wanted to do:

Completely rebuilt the Style Rank system from the ground up.
Designed and implemented 'Gods Must Die' and 'Must Style' mode (Thanks Dahbomb!)
Redesigned and updated Hunter.
Updated Succubus, Killing Face, Bob Barbus and Mundus (made some of the unskippable cutscenes skippable too)
Redesigned the Vergil boss fights (main game and the DLC boss).
Re-positioned all of the collectibles in the game.
Designed the achievement list.
Bunch of other more minor changes too.

Sesha said:
How did DmC DE come about? Was it something that started on your or Capcom's end?

Sesha said:
Where did the ideas for the toggle option for lock-on, timer option for Bloody Palace, and Must Style mode for DmC DE come from? I'm asking partly because the only person as far as I can tell to even mention a Must Style mode was a NeoGAF regular and a mainstay of the DMC fan base across the web named Dahbomb. He mentioned there was talk about it during the DMC3 and DMC4 days on GameFAQs, but there is no easy way of digging those up. As far as I know, there were no "Must Style" mods in existence before DmC DE. Gods Must Die I believe came from the DMC4 mod and that Rahni Tucker or someone else addressed that.

Capcom wanted to do DmC Ultimate (that was the working title). I don't have the specifics but NT was one of several developers who 'bid' on it. They had a small list of changes they wanted to see (60hz, 1080p, XB1/PS4, Vergil Bundled in, Vergil Bloody Palace, tweaks to the style rank system, boss bug/exploits fixed, option to remove the timer in BP, improve the colour-coded enemies etc).

But we wanted to do a lot more than that. For example, when the idea of tweaking the style rank system came up I already had a massive list of things I wanted to change (mostly based off of feedback from Gaf) and made the point that if we were going to do something with it, we should go the entire way and completely overhaul it, bringing it in line with DMC3. Rahni agreed, so that's what we did.

'God Must Die' most I stole from the DMC4 mod (which I've never played, ironically). I prototyped the mode pretty quickly (later renamed to 'Gods Must Die'). Originally we were going to turn the checkpoints off too, but that was unbeliveably brutal (mostly because the loading times don't really work with it), so we changed our mind on that one.

'Must Style' was taken from Dahbomb's "Things I want in the next DMC game" post (I messaged him on here back when I left NT in May last year to thank him for the suggestions - and the DMC3 FAQs that we referenced when designing DmC early on). Originally 'Must Style' was 'Gods Must Style' mode and was just another difficulty that I implemented above GMD. Rahni really liked the idea of the mode, but doesn't play the game at the highest difficulties, so thought it would be better suited as a modifier to any difficulty mode. So it became the 'Must Style' modifier instead.

Sesha said:
Did anyone at any point suggest a Boss Rush mode?

I think so. And like a lot of things, we just didn't have time for it. It's nowhere near as easy to do as you might think. The UI work alone made it too big of a problem. We also had a plan to implement a customisable Dojo (where you could spawn in whatever enemies you liked), but we didn't have time for that either.

Sesha said:
Who came up with the idea of Secret Missions being found in the menu?

*puts hand up*

I love the DMC series, but I've always hated that the secret missions took effort to get to, were fixed to the difficulty you were currently playing and that you couldn't replay them on a whim. So I really pushed to fix all those issues (there wasn't any resistance to the idea luckily). The same goes for the item usage: I really pushed the idea that the player shouldn't get penalised for using an item and then dying, only to have to replay the same part of the game without said item.

Sesha said:
Likewise with the ability to quit and continue mid-mission from the most recent checkpoint?

For checkpoints that was just a common thing - a modern game with 20 minute + missions really needs checkpoints. Games should always respect the amount of time that people have to play them, and being able to quit at a moment's notice is really important. I don't think there was ever a point when we didn't have checkpoints in mind.

The big problem was designing the meta game where it was fair for the player to quit the mission mid way through (e.g. you keep any red souls gained, so farming is an option, if that's the route you want to take), but that couldn't be exploited. That took about six months to get completely right.

Sesha said:
Likewise with gameplay speed increasing by 10% during S-rank and above?

Haha, funnily enough I could have sworn I got that idea from previous games (DMC3/4, notably), and/or Capcom mentioned that it was there. At the time I remember thinking "Right! That why you feel so empowered at high ranks, but so sluggish at the lower ranks"... But people seem to think we invented the idea, so who knows

But either way, when I suggested it to Rahni, she thought it was great and had it implemented into the combat system.

Sesha said:
Who came up with Reverse Rainstorm and Ricoshot? Because Ricoshot in particular, being a firearm charge shot move that juggles and has just-frame capabilities is brilliant.

All Rahni. All of Dante's new moves and the vast majority of the enemies were hers. Obviously a lot of Dante's basic move set is an amalgamation of Uncle Dante and Nero.

Support NeoGAF

LTTP: DmC

Member

Member

Member

Rolling Girl

Member

Member

Rolling Girl

Santa May Claus

Member

Santa May Claus

Member

Member

Rolling Girl

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Neo Member

Member

Member

Member

Neo Member

Member

Neo Member

Member

4-Time GIF/Meme God

Member

Neo Member

Member

Neo Member

Similar threads