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6 Months Later: How do you feel about The Phantom Pain's Story?

kraspkibble

Permabanned.
I've played a couple of the games before but when I bought V i tried to understand the story. Can't make sense of it. I just don't pay attention to the cutscenes and just play each mission. Just there for the gameplay.
 

A-V-B

Member
The V in Metal Gear Solid V should've stood for Vince.

Vince Gilligan.

Now that's one who would've made people happy about the story of a man descending into wickedness.
 

Drencrom

Member
You're both right though, reading some people here shows that many of them don't understand what the game was about, they probably didn't care to listen to all the tapes, to have finished all the tasks/secondary mission or took the time to digest everything before commenting...

We're in a day of age when everything is drowning under the deluge of preformatted works that invade us from every direction, we consume rapidly, bear a critical opinion on the instant and move on... almost nobodies speaks with their memory or feelings now, they're just following the general consensus or their favorite YouTubers/popcasters etc... or put attention too much on other people critics and don't even try the game...

The Phantom Pain is an artwork to remember in this shitty pop culture that won't stop hurting those kind of ambitious project... why bothers to create something when every generic games like COD, AC, Destiny, The Division, Fifa etc... are massive commercial success ? MGSV seems like a game from a different age and it's saddened me...

Is this post a joke?

MGSV is faaar from being a game from a different era. It is incredibly contemporary with its freemium mobile like timers, motherbase coin transactions, open-world design and so on. The game even shares the same fucking problems like some games you listed when it comes to story presentation, repetitive mission structure, overall progression, developers being more ambitious than what they could deliver on etc.

Seeing so many posters unironically agreeing with this post is enlightening how far people go to uphold some "deeper" meaning with this unfinished and bland game.
 

Chola

Banned
Is this post a joke?

MGSV is faaar from being a game from a different era. It is incredibly contemporary with it's mobile like timers, motherbase coin transactions, openworld design and so on. The game even shares the same fucking problems like some games you listed when it comes to story presentation, repetitive mission structure, overall progression, developers trying being more ambitious than what they could deliver etc.

Seeing so many posters unironically agreeing with this post is enlightening how far people go to uphold some "deeper" meaning with this unfinished and bland game.

Mobile-like -No. you get your base weapon instantly and lvl 3-4 weapon in 18 minutes and there are billions other weapons to choose, the game never stops your progress and its has no relation to microtrasaction. It was designed that way just like the helicopter rides, supply drop etc. They were going for semi simulation open world feel
Microtransaction - Completely overblown, i have 3 FOBs just by playing normally and 200 coins short of the 4th one and most importantly you don't need more than 1 FOB

Open world- Its old school open world, nothing like the ubisoftish open world

The game even shares the same fucking problems like some games you listed when it comes to story presentation, repetitive mission structure,

Clearly you have no idea how varied and dynamic the main missions are in this game.
 

THEaaron

Member
Is this post a joke?

MGSV is faaar from being a game from a different era. It is incredibly contemporary with its freemium mobile like timers, motherbase coin transactions, open-world design and so on. The game even shares the same fucking problems like some games you listed when it comes to story presentation, repetitive mission structure, overall progression, developers being more ambitious than what they could deliver on etc.

Seeing so many posters unironically agreeing with this post is enlightening how far people go to uphold some "deeper" meaning with this unfinished and bland game.

Well, you are just the other side of the coin. The truth might be more in the center.
 

K.N.W.

Member
For me the story could have a meta meaning: We watched the trailers, thought it would be a game about Big Boss's downfall, then bought the game, invested tens and tens of hours wanting to see the truth, playing repetitive secondary missions and recycled primary ones, and at very ending we got to know it wasn't even big boss. This means we became like big boss, we invested time and forces to follow our dreams, to understand we were fighting for false dreams. But the only thing that matters is that we had something to fight for, is what gave us the strength to survive those boring secondary missions. Always fight for what you belive in guys :)
 

KOMANI

KOMANI
Not really, people moan about the nonsense plot, how annoying Rose is, how lame Raiden is (not just not playing as Snake but playing as this dweeb), how it's a Shadow Moses repeat, etc. all the time. The bait and switch including the false trailers is huge, don't get me wrong, but the game does a lot more things to piss all over people's cornflakes.
I disagree, I mean those are concerns, but at the time of release, the backlash came from playing as Raiden. It didn't help that the tanker mission was sooooo awesome.
Then people got over the Raiden thing and the laundry list of complaints came in. For the record, the Jack and Rose stuff is crowbarred in there... Totally Kojima putting his real life in a game.
 

Ishida

Banned
I totally agree with you.

And for those that says that it doesn't close the story: What else do you want? It explains why Big Boss die so many times, the only barely missing thing is what he did in Zanzibar, but there is no truly need for that.

Really? So instead of "underground tunnel", "secret elevator", "secret anti-bomb bunker", they give us this bullshit nonsense about a doppelganger?

Explaining how Big Boss survived Outer Heaven was not needed. Hell the very original game says he survived in a post-credits monologue.

And about Zanzibar... That was actually the interesting part of the story. Who gives a shit about what some random dude bearing Big Boss' face did?

MGSV had one job: Show Big Boss descent into utter madness and villainy. And also show his interactions with Eli, his son.

Instead we got crap. And now Liquid's story in MGS doesn't add up. He didn't meet his father, he met a body double who treated him quite well. So where does this "he always told me I was inferior" stuff comes from now? What was the point of adding Eli and Mantis to MGSV then? Instead of showing Eli's growing resentment against Big Boss for something he did to him, instead this game tells us that Liquid was ALWAYS a little shit. He always hated Big Boss for... reasons... even after this "Big Boss" tried to help him, train him and make something out of him.

Eli has zero development during this game (Well, that's also correct for all the rest of the cast...). Liquid is Liquid. He has always been a rebellious little shit. Like a parody of himself from the future. He hates Big Boss. He says Big Boss treated him like crap and told him he was the inferior one of the clones. But yet that's bullshit, according to this game. What's the point of adding Eli if he does... nothing? He's just there, being all moody and sinister, but it amounts to nothing.

This game makes Liquid's speech in MGS seem like a load of bull, and not in the right way.
 
Really? So instead of "underground tunnel", "secret elevator", "secret anti-bomb bunker", they give us this bullshit nonsense about a doppelganger?

Explaining how Big Boss survived Outer Heaven was not needed. Hell the very original game says he survived in a post-credits monologue.

And about Zanzibar... That was actually the interesting part of the story. Who gives a shit about what some random dude bearing Big Boss' face did?

MGSV had one job: Show Big Boss descent into utter madness and villainy. And also show his interactions with Eli, his son.

Instead we got crap. And now Liquid's story in MGS doesn't add up. He didn't meet his father, he met a body double who treated him quite well. So where does this "he always told me I was inferior" stuff comes from now? What was the point of adding Eli and Mantis to MGSV then? Instead of showing Eli's growing resentment against Big Boss for something he did to him, instead this game tells us that Liquid was ALWAYS a little shit. He always hated Big Boss for... reasons... even after this "Big Boss" tried to help him, train him and make something out of him.

Eli has zero development during this game (Well, that's also correct for all the rest of the cast...). Liquid is Liquid. He has always been a rebellious little shit. Like a parody of himself from the future. He hates Big Boss. He says Big Boss treated him like crap and told him he was the inferior one of the clones. But yet that's bullshit, according to this game. What's the point of adding Eli if he does... nothing? He's just there, being all moody and sinister, but it amounts to nothing.

This game makes Liquid's speech in MGS seem like a load of bull, and not in the right way.

Yeah, the first Metal Gear is from the 8-bit Era, nobody back then was asking why a game's boss survived defeat and showed up in the sequel. It's just how it was. The fact that Phantom Pain's twist resolves that is merely a side effect. Kojima didn't write it this way to explain Big Boss surviving Outer Heaven, he wrote it this way because he thought it'd be sooooo fucking clever. So I can't take anyone seriously when they use "but it explains this!" as a defense of the shitty twist.

Regarding Liquid...it's possible that EIi came into contact with Big Boss later in life, and that's when all the stuff he mentions in his MGS1 speech happens. But then that brings us back to the question - why include Eli in Phantom Pain at all, then? The answer, like before, is because it serves Kojima's masturbatory obsession with trying to put the screws to the audience, canon and common sense be damned.
 

Ishida

Banned
Yeah, the first Metal Gear is from the 8-bit Era, nobody back then was asking why a game's boss survived defeat and showed up in the sequel. It's just how it was. The fact that Phantom Pain's twist resolves that is merely a side effect. Kojima didn't write it this way to explain Big Boss surviving Outer Heaven, he wrote it this way because he thought it'd be sooooo fucking clever. So I can't take anyone seriously when they use "but it explains this!" as a defense of the shitty twist.

Regarding Liquid...it's possible that EIi came into contact with Big Boss later in life, and that's when all the stuff he mentions in his MGS1 speech happens. But then that brings us back to the question - why include Eli in Phantom Pain at all, then? The answer, like before, is because it serves Kojima's masturbatory obsession with trying to put the screws to the audience, canon and common sense be damned.

Yep! Exactly my point!
If Liquid indeed does meet the real Big Boss later, and the whole "you fucking suck lol" thing happens, then what was the whole point of adding Eli to MGSV aside from making him a parody of his future self? Eli and Mantis had zero reason to be in the game.

Even their "master plan" of stealing both Sahelanthropus and the final sample of the Vocal Cord Parasites goes absolutely nowhere. Those things are never referenced in the other games, so you can just assume their plan went nowhere. So why put it in there in the first place?

Fuck, I'm still pissed....
 
The story itself is incredible and easily the most consistent and deepest story of the series. So many symbols, so many references and allusions, mostly to older games in the series. It's really too bad "the story sucks" is the go-to line because it's a huge achievement but it will be years and years before the masses realize it. It requires knowledge of the entire rest of the series (and not just watching the "complete movies" on youtube like many were doing before MGSV) and it probably requires a background in film theory and critical analysis as well. Most gamers don't have this background, and most people that do have this background don't have the time or inclination to invest hundreds and hundreds hours into a single story in a medium they are unfamiliar with.

Yes, hundreds of hours. You don't do an in-depth critique of a movie by watching it once, you watch it over and over, analyzing scenes, comparing it to the artists's previous work. How is Venom's journey different from Big Boss's? Or Solid Snakes? How is the sacrifice made by The Boss paralleled in the sacrifice made by Paz? Or by Venom himself? Is MGSV a commentary on MGS3 the way that MGS2 was a commentary on MGS1? What does that say about how Kojima sees his role as creator, and how has that role changed over the decades? All food for thought.

Kojima has been painting himself into smaller and smaller corners over the course of the series. Remember that the main villain died in the very first game: every thing since then has been a "retcon", or muddying up the mythology. Yet he has had to continue because of demand! With this game he was "supposed to show the fall" of someone who already had several games where the entire plot was about them becoming a world class villain. IMO this is what Ground Zeroes is for, to show the audience that Big Boss is already a demon. The first words out of his mouth are suggesting they "silence [Paz] before they are compromised". Then you have the weird and intense "rescue" of Chico and the horrific forced surgery in the helicopter. All of this took on heavy new meanings for me after playing through TPP twice and revisiting GZ. Paz is actually better off dead, better off dying in that jail cell, than what she goes through. Big Boss can no longer save people, he is at the very bottom of his arc in GZ.

Venom's story seems like an alternate reality version of Big Boss. A Big Boss who CAN still save people. A Big Boss who DOESN'T pull the trigger (on Quiet in a scene clearly inverting his execution of The Boss). A Big Boss who tries to make the world a better place. Yet he is trapped in the hell that Big Boss caused and he knows it. The hell of war, of the endless cycle of revenge.

The Prologue mission and the Shining Lights missions are the two narrative linear missions in the game, closed off from the outside world. This is not an accident. They show the beginning and ending of Venom's journey, from PTSD-stricken wounded war vet to power-mad leader shooting his own pleading soldiers in the face. The two missions are inversions of one another in many many ways. In the prologue you start in top of a building and work your way down in order to escape. In Lights you start in the bottom of a building and work your way to the top in order to stop people from escaping. There are many symbols shared between the two missions: there is lighting people on fire in both missions. There is stabbing Big Boss/Venom with a knife in both missions.

Every symbol will eventually need to be analyzed, which will likely take years. Here is an easy one to start with: the very first thing we see in the game is a mirror. Mirrors feature very heavily in the story. Mirrors are also a classical symbol in film. There is the mirror in the empty (is it?) room of Outer Heaven. There is the mirror that the doctor holds up to show you your new face before it is shattered. There is the mirror at the end of the game, also shattered, this time by Venom himself. Maybe there are more, but I can't remember, cos the game is huge and to catalog all of it would be a massive undertaking.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
The story itself is incredible and easily the most consistent and deepest story of the series. So many symbols, so many references and allusions, mostly to older games in the series. It's really too bad "the story sucks" is the go-to line because it's a huge achievement but it will be years and years before the masses realize it. It requires knowledge of the entire rest of the series (and not just watching the "complete movies" on youtube like many were doing before MGSV) and it probably requires a background in film theory and critical analysis as well. Most gamers don't have this background, and most people that do have this background don't have the time or inclination to invest hundreds and hundreds hours into a single story in a medium they are unfamiliar with.

Yes, hundreds of hours. You don't do an in-depth critique of a movie by watching it once, you watch it over and over, analyzing scenes, comparing it to the artists's previous work. How is Venom's journey different from Big Boss's? Or Solid Snakes? How is the sacrifice made by The Boss paralleled in the sacrifice made by Paz? Or by Venom himself? Is MGSV a commentary on MGS3 the way that MGS2 was a commentary on MGS1? What does that say about how Kojima sees his role as creator, and how has that role changed over the decades? All food for thought.

Kojima has been painting himself into smaller and smaller corners over the course of the series. Remember that the main villain died in the very first game: every thing since then has been a "retcon", or muddying up the mythology. Yet he has had to continue because of demand! With this game he was "supposed to show the fall" of someone who already had several games where the entire plot was about them becoming a world class villain. IMO this is what Ground Zeroes is for, to show the audience that Big Boss is already a demon. The first words out of his mouth are suggesting they "silence [Paz] before they are compromised". Then you have the weird and intense "rescue" of Chico and the horrific forced surgery in the helicopter. All of this took on heavy new meanings for me after playing through TPP twice and revisiting GZ. Paz is actually better off dead, better off dying in that jail cell, than what she goes through. Big Boss can no longer save people, he is at the very bottom of his arc in GZ.

Venom's story seems like an alternate reality version of Big Boss. A Big Boss who CAN still save people. A Big Boss who DOESN'T pull the trigger (on Quiet in a scene clearly inverting his execution of The Boss). A Big Boss who tries to make the world a better place. Yet he is trapped in the hell that Big Boss caused and he knows it. The hell of war, of the endless cycle of revenge.

The Prologue mission and the Shining Lights missions are the two narrative linear missions in the game, closed off from the outside world. This is not an accident. They show the beginning and ending of Venom's journey, from PTSD-stricken wounded war vet to power-mad leader shooting his own pleading soldiers in the face. The two missions are inversions of one another in many many ways. In the prologue you start in top of a building and work your way down in order to escape. In Lights you start in the bottom of a building and work your way to the top in order to stop people from escaping. There are many symbols shared between the two missions: there is lighting people on fire in both missions. There is stabbing Big Boss/Venom with a knife in both missions.

Every symbol will eventually need to be analyzed, which will likely take years. Here is an easy one to start with: the very first thing we see in the game is a mirror. Mirrors feature very heavily in the story. Mirrors are also a classical symbol in film. There is the mirror in the empty (is it?) room of Outer Heaven. There is the mirror that the doctor holds up to show you your new face before it is shattered. There is the mirror at the end of the game, also shattered, this time by Venom himself. Maybe there are more, but I can't remember, cos the game is huge and to catalog all of it would be a massive undertaking.
I certainly appreciate write-ups like these for the added insights they provide, and I want to disclaim I'm one of the few who likes MGSV's story a lot due to both of what you laid out, its tone and because I enjoy how its "twist" is used as an interesting way to characterise both Venom and Big Boss, but the unfortunate truth is that people who left the game feeling bored or disappointed will not be swayed by analyses like these because those argue in the game's favour on a rational level, whereas the initial response and the reactions it causes are emotional first. Much like the time shortly after MGS2 released, no argument about it being commentary on MGS1, the nature of sequels and player identification with their avatar could negate the initial reaction to the bait and switch. However, as we moved on people eventually started to see MGS2 for what it is and I'm hoping in due time the same will happen for MGSV. At least discussion might graduate from "Where are the cutscenes D:<" and the like. And like I posted earlier in the thread, I don't think discussion based on "I like vs. I don't like" can lead anywhere, so just getting past that phase would be a good start.
 

Persona7

Banned
It is half finished tripe. I can see why konami wanted to get rid of Kojima due the massive waste of money and time on a low quality product. They should have had more oversight on the studios working on this game.
 
The defenders of the story are so in denial that they really think 10 years from now people will still give a shit and "find the deeper meaning." As seen in the many walls of text that can be summed up as "it was too deep for you." Even the damn thread title is implying time will magically make it good.
 
Weakest plot , characters and boss fights. Other than the quarantine scene, can't think of anything that stood out whereas I can recall multiple sections of the previous games fondly.
 
You're both right though, reading some people here shows that many of them don't understand what the game was about, they probably didn't care to listen to all the tapes, to have finished all the tasks/secondary mission or took the time to digest everything before commenting...

We're in a day of age when everything is drowning under the deluge of preformatted works that invade us from every direction, we consume rapidly, bear a critical opinion on the instant and move on... almost nobodies speaks with their memory or feelings now, they're just following the general consensus or their favorite YouTubers/popcasters etc... or put attention too much on other people critics and don't even try the game...

The Phantom Pain is an artwork to remember in this shitty pop culture that won't stop hurting those kind of ambitious project... why bothers to create something when every generic games like COD, AC, Destiny, The Division, Fifa etc... are massive commercial success ? MGSV seems like a game from a different age and it's saddened me...

Here here! I enjoyed MGSV and I admit that it left a sour taste in my mouth, but I was expecting it to not be the exact thing I wanted. I think people are still expecting something along the lines of MGS1-3, something that is formatted just like the classic games. Kojima has long moved on from the kind of style he was doing back then, it's different but it's not total trash like some people are saying.

What do people think of the idea that the whole "missing pieces" feeling of the story was his intention. He wanted to cause a fuss like this, because apparently it's similar to Moby Dick and adds to the whole Phantom Pain theme?
 

TedMilk

Member
The story was terrible. The game was amazing though, I don't care about the story or even how repetitive some missions were as the gameplay remained fresh throughout due to the open ended structure.

But yeah, that story... should have had the real big boss in it, basically. You know, Kojima, you don't HAVE to put twists in everything all the god damn time!
 
What do people think of the idea that the whole "missing pieces" feeling of the story was his intention. He wanted to cause a fuss like this, because apparently it's similar to Moby Dick and adds to the whole Phantom Pain theme?

To me it's pretty obvious that once he saw things would just not work out w Konami (Ground Zeroes's forced release) he wrote it into the story. Because that's what you do when you are making art, you react to what is happening in your life. It's a living work that grows with the artist, not a spreadsheet you are filing out until it is 100% complete.

Let's not forget that Ground Zeroes is part one of MGSV. Even before making The Phantom Pain this game was doomed to be unfinished! The first chunk was amputated as the full game was just getting off the ground. The game was taken from Kojima just as mother base was taken from Big Boss.

It seems to me he probably came up with the whole V twist and Phantom Pain theme during this period, when he was notified that he would have to slice off a chunk of the magnum opus he was working on, dooming it to be some weird mis-shapen thing. Thus all the clues and tells buried throughout GZ, from Big Boss's murderous leanings to the medic's blink-and-you'll-miss-it sacrifice to Kaz's "What about him?" It was very intentional to run with this theme.

On top of that you had Kojima wanting to explore new territory as a game creator. The new mission-based style of play, the larger Western game-inspired open world, the Hollywood actors, the new emphasis on emergent storytelling. All of this is stuff he has wanted to do for years, maybe decades. I think he saw the writing on the wall and went for broke. He probably realized years ago that bitter fans would disown the game as "not a real Metal Gear" and he incorporated that angst into the work itself.
 
Not the best Metal Gear story by far but it does fit well in the series and succeeds at as much plotlines as it fails. Definitely not a bad as most people make it out to be. Most likely because a lot of it is hidden in the tapes.
 
outside of a handful of missions I just didn't really care. I felt like I was enjoying the game despite itself, and the rushed ending that came out of nowhere left a bad taste in my mouth

the whole first chapter feels great and like it's really building towards something, but even then the minute to minute "what am i doing" was never really satisfying from a story perspective. this is the first metal gear game where I didn't feel attached to any of the characters. I went in with a strong connection to Miller and ocelot and came away totally ambivalent.

there is so much to do in that game that it feels odd coming away from it feeling empty. it plays so fantastically that I can only feel let down by everything wrapped around it

going back to ground zeroes after tpp reminded me how much promise ground zeroes had. it really felt like a prologue to this grand epic that just never materialised

EDIT: i only just realise how old this thread was sry sry
 

quesalupa

Member
Severely disappointed. The E3 2015 (best game story trailer of all time) story looked like it was going into some pretty interesting territories involving language, borders, etc. We got vocal cord parasites. And they ruined Kaz and Huey. Fuck.

I guess the Venom twist was cool.
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Underwhelming, incomplete and a failure all around.

The game mechanics were outstanding. The presentation was great, characters felt great. But the content was just not there in any regard. The world felt empty, actual story missions were very light and few and far between and the game's "story" ended abruptly with out any kind of satisfying conclusion or explanation to what was really going on and relied on a really shoddy Chapter 2 to pick up the pieces in some very slapdash attempt to wrap things up.

What I expected was an intense and emotional journey about the psychological collapse and descent into madness of Big Boss and co. A game that was going to really push the boundaries and show some of the harsh truths and darker sides to the glorified combat and conflict we see so much in games and in the series itself, but what i got was a bait and switch story that was only a fraction of a complete one about some other dude that did nothing to bridge the gap between MGSIII/PW and MG1/2, let alone live up the lofty expectations the game's trailers set up.
 

doofy102

Member
I honestly would've liked it more if it had no dialogue, if the cutscenes were just shots of Big Boss and Kaz posing silently at mother base. The imagery of the game is what stuck with me. The dialogue didn't achieve anything with me.
 

doofy102

Member
The story itself is incredible and easily the most consistent and deepest story of the series. So many symbols, so many references and allusions, mostly to older games in the series. It's really too bad "the story sucks" is the go-to line because it's a huge achievement but it will be years and years before the masses realize it. It requires knowledge of the entire rest of the series (and not just watching the "complete movies" on youtube like many were doing before MGSV) and it probably requires a background in film theory and critical analysis as well. Most gamers don't have this background, and most people that do have this background don't have the time or inclination to invest hundreds and hundreds hours into a single story in a medium they are unfamiliar with.

Yes, hundreds of hours. You don't do an in-depth critique of a movie by watching it once, you watch it over and over, analyzing scenes, comparing it to the artists's previous work. How is Venom's journey different from Big Boss's? Or Solid Snakes? How is the sacrifice made by The Boss paralleled in the sacrifice made by Paz? Or by Venom himself? Is MGSV a commentary on MGS3 the way that MGS2 was a commentary on MGS1? What does that say about how Kojima sees his role as creator, and how has that role changed over the decades? All food for thought.

Kojima has been painting himself into smaller and smaller corners over the course of the series. Remember that the main villain died in the very first game: every thing since then has been a "retcon", or muddying up the mythology. Yet he has had to continue because of demand! With this game he was "supposed to show the fall" of someone who already had several games where the entire plot was about them becoming a world class villain. IMO this is what Ground Zeroes is for, to show the audience that Big Boss is already a demon. The first words out of his mouth are suggesting they "silence [Paz] before they are compromised". Then you have the weird and intense "rescue" of Chico and the horrific forced surgery in the helicopter. All of this took on heavy new meanings for me after playing through TPP twice and revisiting GZ. Paz is actually better off dead, better off dying in that jail cell, than what she goes through. Big Boss can no longer save people, he is at the very bottom of his arc in GZ.

Venom's story seems like an alternate reality version of Big Boss. A Big Boss who CAN still save people. A Big Boss who DOESN'T pull the trigger (on Quiet in a scene clearly inverting his execution of The Boss). A Big Boss who tries to make the world a better place. Yet he is trapped in the hell that Big Boss caused and he knows it. The hell of war, of the endless cycle of revenge.

The Prologue mission and the Shining Lights missions are the two narrative linear missions in the game, closed off from the outside world. This is not an accident. They show the beginning and ending of Venom's journey, from PTSD-stricken wounded war vet to power-mad leader shooting his own pleading soldiers in the face. The two missions are inversions of one another in many many ways. In the prologue you start in top of a building and work your way down in order to escape. In Lights you start in the bottom of a building and work your way to the top in order to stop people from escaping. There are many symbols shared between the two missions: there is lighting people on fire in both missions. There is stabbing Big Boss/Venom with a knife in both missions.

Every symbol will eventually need to be analyzed, which will likely take years. Here is an easy one to start with: the very first thing we see in the game is a mirror. Mirrors feature very heavily in the story. Mirrors are also a classical symbol in film. There is the mirror in the empty (is it?) room of Outer Heaven. There is the mirror that the doctor holds up to show you your new face before it is shattered. There is the mirror at the end of the game, also shattered, this time by Venom himself. Maybe there are more, but I can't remember, cos the game is huge and to catalog all of it would be a massive undertaking.

It's possible to appreciate these sorts of details (they're really interesting to read about) but still see the story as a failure. Like talking about one of David Lynch's failures. Innately interesting attempt, but the thing is, none of these details came together in a way that impacted people on a gut level.
 
The story itself is incredible and easily the most consistent and deepest story of the series. So many symbols, so many references and allusions, mostly to older games in the series. It's really too bad "the story sucks" is the go-to line because it's a huge achievement but it will be years and years before the masses realize it. It requires knowledge of the entire rest of the series (and not just watching the "complete movies" on youtube like many were doing before MGSV) and it probably requires a background in film theory and critical analysis as well. Most gamers don't have this background, and most people that do have this background don't have the time or inclination to invest hundreds and hundreds hours into a single story in a medium they are unfamiliar with.

Yes, hundreds of hours. You don't do an in-depth critique of a movie by watching it once, you watch it over and over, analyzing scenes, comparing it to the artists's previous work. How is Venom's journey different from Big Boss's? Or Solid Snakes? How is the sacrifice made by The Boss paralleled in the sacrifice made by Paz? Or by Venom himself? Is MGSV a commentary on MGS3 the way that MGS2 was a commentary on MGS1? What does that say about how Kojima sees his role as creator, and how has that role changed over the decades? All food for thought.

Kojima has been painting himself into smaller and smaller corners over the course of the series. Remember that the main villain died in the very first game: every thing since then has been a "retcon", or muddying up the mythology. Yet he has had to continue because of demand! With this game he was "supposed to show the fall" of someone who already had several games where the entire plot was about them becoming a world class villain. IMO this is what Ground Zeroes is for, to show the audience that Big Boss is already a demon. The first words out of his mouth are suggesting they "silence [Paz] before they are compromised". Then you have the weird and intense "rescue" of Chico and the horrific forced surgery in the helicopter. All of this took on heavy new meanings for me after playing through TPP twice and revisiting GZ. Paz is actually better off dead, better off dying in that jail cell, than what she goes through. Big Boss can no longer save people, he is at the very bottom of his arc in GZ.

Venom's story seems like an alternate reality version of Big Boss. A Big Boss who CAN still save people. A Big Boss who DOESN'T pull the trigger (on Quiet in a scene clearly inverting his execution of The Boss). A Big Boss who tries to make the world a better place. Yet he is trapped in the hell that Big Boss caused and he knows it. The hell of war, of the endless cycle of revenge.

The Prologue mission and the Shining Lights missions are the two narrative linear missions in the game, closed off from the outside world. This is not an accident. They show the beginning and ending of Venom's journey, from PTSD-stricken wounded war vet to power-mad leader shooting his own pleading soldiers in the face. The two missions are inversions of one another in many many ways. In the prologue you start in top of a building and work your way down in order to escape. In Lights you start in the bottom of a building and work your way to the top in order to stop people from escaping. There are many symbols shared between the two missions: there is lighting people on fire in both missions. There is stabbing Big Boss/Venom with a knife in both missions.

Every symbol will eventually need to be analyzed, which will likely take years. Here is an easy one to start with: the very first thing we see in the game is a mirror. Mirrors feature very heavily in the story. Mirrors are also a classical symbol in film. There is the mirror in the empty (is it?) room of Outer Heaven. There is the mirror that the doctor holds up to show you your new face before it is shattered. There is the mirror at the end of the game, also shattered, this time by Venom himself. Maybe there are more, but I can't remember, cos the game is huge and to catalog all of it would be a massive undertaking.

Really good analysis of the themes in the game. A lot of stuff I didn't pick up either. Especially the parallel with BB shooting the Boss and Venom not shooting Quiet.

Even the nuclear disarmament ending shows how similar Venom and the Boss are and how out of touch Big Boss became. BB truly became a reprehensible character in this game. He was a bad guy ever since Peace Walker but the way he used Venom in the exact same way that the US used the Boss made him a hypocrite. I loved it though. Im so glad that Kojima showed BB as a villain in a truly human manner. As opposed to him being a darth vader style fall from grace.
 
Why can't MGSV just be a fantastic game in its own right without having to crap on the other great games in the series?

It's not crapping on the other games, because that is the MGS games of the past.

Despite the change in settings and characters, MGS 1-4 follow the same basic formula. They are linear games that deliver their stories in very long uninteractive cutscenes. MGSV breaks from this formula and has a very different way of communicating its story and gameplay. It's not surprising that many hardcore fans did not react to it well.

People don't like change. You look back on various video game franchises, and the one game that tried to be different was usually the one that received the most vocal negative feedback (Splinter Cell Conviction and Hitman Absolution come to mind.)
 
For a person who just beat it, yeah Chapter 2 also. I would say the story was mediocre. But the gameplay was great. Metal Gear will be missed!:(
 
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