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Yoshi
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:39 PM)
Yoshi's Avatar
Having enjoyed the luxurious amount of extra time that comes with a NeoGAF ban, I had to find another way of wasting said times instead of being productive and what better way to waste ones time than to play a Warriors game? Well, not exactly my thoughts, but the same effect, anyway. So, I have played through Hyrule Warriors Legends on Nintendo 3DS (yes, old model, yes, framerate is shit, but the map screen is lag free and almost all enemies can be defeated by (B-B-B-A)* anyway), including the five new missions based around Linkle, the new female Link-look-alike. However, even though I am notoriously not one to beg for a female Link (and please, I don't intend to discuss the importance of one either way in this thread; hard to keep out of ones own threads ;)), I was insulted by Linkle's writing. Of course, if you are interested in Hyrule Warriors Legends' story and don't want to be spoiled, do not read on and leave the thread.

The whole story about Linkle is
(1) Even though she runs around with a map and a compass, she is completely incapable of finding her way,
(2) Obviously, even though she's given numerous options, fighting alongside Hyrule's warriors, she's also unwilling to ask for the way, so either she does not even recognise she has no orientation whatsoever, or she is to proud to ask - neither is particularly clever
(3) The only other thing we get to know of her is that she is convinced she is someone special. In a prickish way. While Link always seemed quite humble about being told he's the legendary hero, Linkle cannot get herself to stop shouting to the world she is the legendary hero because her granny told her so. Maybe she is, the game doesn't exactly say either way, but she certainly is outspoken about it.

I think her very victory animation is a culmination of her whole story line:
https://youtu.be/oXYx7Zxt310?t=502
After every mission (bar the final one, where she somehow reaches Hyrule Castle) she has won, she looks at her map, making strange (and rather stupid sounding) noises, then points in the wrong direction and runs with a convinced "josh" into said direction. Even if we take the signpost just as a visual cue that she is running into the wrong direction and not an actual signpost, this is rather annoying. I'm not quick to complain about sexist depiction of characters in games, but Linkle is... well, I hope I'll never see her again. And if we do, then make it a labyrinth game. A hard one.
Escalario
Banned
(03-28-2016, 10:42 PM)
That victory sequence is so moe~
Neuromancer
The Mayuh of f'n Bawston
(03-28-2016, 10:42 PM)
Neuromancer's Avatar
Is poking fun at a female character who gets lost and won't ask for directions sexist? Because in the US that is stereotypically a very 'male' thing to do and be made fun of for.
Dystify
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:42 PM)
Dystify's Avatar
It's probably why I wouldn't like a female version of Link in a mainline game. Japan just does something... weird with women. You see this in anime all the time. No real (Edit: Most) woman behaves like that...
HawthorneKitty
Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
(03-28-2016, 10:43 PM)
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Sounds anime.
Spring-Loaded
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:44 PM)
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She sounds like Groose.
SirPenguin
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:44 PM)
Arrogance and refusal to ask directions when lost are predominantly male stereotypes

It sort of feels like you were looking for something to be offended over and sort of missed the whole point altogether
Jay Sosa
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:44 PM)

Originally Posted by Dystify

It's probably why I wouldn't like a female version of Link in a mainline game. Japan just does something... weird with women. You see this in anime all the time,, No real woman behaves like that...

It's not like any characters in anime are behaving like real persons.
UnemployedVillain
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:45 PM)
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Do female characters have to be perfect and not have personality faults now? Because she sounds like Zoro from One Piece with the getting lost thing
CronoShot
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:45 PM)
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I think she's meant to be a sort of parody to Link. Female instead of male, goofy and outgoing instead of quiet and serious.
ponpo
( ≖‿≖)
(03-28-2016, 10:46 PM)
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She really is just the elf from Dragon's Crown isn't she.
SOLDIER
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:46 PM)
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Yoshi
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

Is poking fun at a female character who gets lost and won't ask for directions sexist? Because in the US that is stereotypically a very 'male' thing to do and be made fun of for.

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.
LegendofLex
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:46 PM)
LegendofLex's Avatar
I, too, am a bit frustrated by how they squandered their chance to debut a female equivalent to Link who's at least as competent as he is.

I kinda like the whole "she's just an ordinary village girl who heard there were monsters and, inspired by her grandmother's stories about the legendary hero, decided to join in the fighting" backstory idea, but there's something very off about the implementation.
Dystify
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jay Sosa

It's not like any characters in anime are behaving like real persons.

Well that's true. It's just even more obnoxious with how women behave there compared to men.
Kayo Police
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:47 PM)
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Welp that kills the little desire I had for a alternative female Link. Male Link is just perfection in comparison.
Zero-ELEC
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:47 PM)
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That's not a woman thing that's an anime thing. The fool that thinks they know where they're going. It's a trope. (Warning: TV Tropes link.)
Sylas
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:47 PM)
Representation is having people of all ethnicity and genders displayed in any form, so long as it's no bigoted.

A female character does not inherently have to be "good" or without flaws. It's ass-backwards thinking to be insulted when the character does not invoke any offensive stereotypes for laughs. You're free to not like the character, but she is--by definition--an inclusive character. Getting offended is hilariously dumb. Also she does freaking gun-kata.
KingBroly
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by CronoShot

I think she's meant to be a sort of parody to Link. Female instead of male, goofy and outgoing instead of quiet and serious.

See, that's what I thought.

She's also super afraid of Tingle instead of accepting his...weirdness. If you consider her cut story stuff to be canon.
More Fun To Compute
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:48 PM)
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Most male heroes in manga are as dumb as bricks. If you have heroes that are too perfect in every way it's like some crappy fan fiction. Nobody likes it because it feels phoney.
MuddyDonut
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yoshi


The whole story about Linkle is
(1) Even though she runs around with a map and a compass, she is completely incapable of finding her way,
(2) Obviously, even though she's given numerous options, fighting alongside Hyrule's warriors, she's also unwilling to ask for the way, so either she does not even recognise she has no orientation whatsoever, or she is to proud to ask - neither is particularly clever
(3) The only other thing we get to know of her is that she is convinced she is someone special. In a prickish way. While Link always seemed quite humble about being told he's the legendary hero, Linkle cannot get herself to stop shouting to the world she is the legendary hero because her granny told her so. Maybe she is, the game doesn't exactly say either way, but she certainly is outspoken about it.

Sounds like a play on some male stereotypes and Link himself. Link is humble and Linkle is the opposite. Link, or the player, can use the map and compass efficiently and Linkle can not. Seems like all they are doing is making an opposite Link? Could be worse in game though, but what you wrote is nothing terrible.
butalala
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:48 PM)
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She sounds (from the video you linked) like a stereotypical dumb blonde. Disappointing.
UnemployedVillain
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

This is selection vision at its finest. You're literally seeing what you want to, because this is so common it's a trope
hupla
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:49 PM)
hupla's Avatar

Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

she sounds like a Shounen protag
Zero-ELEC
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

Look one post above yours.
Corpekata
Banned
(03-28-2016, 10:49 PM)
Looks like a ton of generic anime girl tropes. They have to give them some sort of trait like being clumsy, being a piggish eater, or being bad at cooking to make them seem "normal."

It always ends up sort of dominating their personality by the end though. See Chie and her love for meat.
Caydel
Junior Member
(03-28-2016, 10:49 PM)
Caydel's Avatar

Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

Do you watch anime? It's a trope that quite a bit of both male and female characters have.
pinkurocket
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:49 PM)
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Is it that bad that she's dumb / can't read a map?
Link himself also isn't the smartest cookie. He has courage, sure, but yeah. Usually needs a companion to guide him along.
Magnet_Man
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Having enjoyed the luxurious amount of extra time that comes with a NeoGAF ban, I had to find another way of wasting said times instead of being productive and what better way to waste ones time than to play a Warriors game? Well, not exactly my thoughts, but the same effect, anyway. So, I have played through Hyrule Warriors Legends on Nintendo 3DS (yes, old model, yes, framerate is shit, but the map screen is lag free and almost all enemies can be defeated by (B-B-B-A)* anyway), including the five new missions based around Linkle, the new female Link-look-alike. However, even though I am notoriously not one to beg for a female Link (and please, I don't intend to discuss the importance of one either way in this thread; hard to keep out of ones own threads ;)), I was insulted by Linkle's writing. Of course, if you are interested in Hyrule Warriors Legends' story and don't want to be spoiled, do not read on and leave the thread.

The whole story about Linkle is
(1) Even though she runs around with a map and a compass, she is completely incapable of finding her way,
(2) Obviously, even though she's given numerous options, fighting alongside Hyrule's warriors, she's also unwilling to ask for the way, so either she does not even recognise she has no orientation whatsoever, or she is to proud to ask - neither is particularly clever
(3) The only other thing we get to know of her is that she is convinced she is someone special. In a prickish way. While Link always seemed quite humble about being told he's the legendary hero, Linkle cannot get herself to stop shouting to the world she is the legendary hero because her granny told her so. Maybe she is, the game doesn't exactly say either way, but she certainly is outspoken about it.

I think her very victory animation is a culmination of her whole story line:
https://youtu.be/oXYx7Zxt310?t=502
After every mission (bar the final one, where she somehow reaches Hyrule Castle) she has won, she looks at her map, making strange (and rather stupid sounding) noises, then points in the wrong direction and runs with a convinced "josh" into said direction. Even if we take the signpost just as a visual cue that she is running into the wrong direction and not an actual signpost, this is rather annoying. I'm not quick to complain about sexist depiction of characters in games, but Linkle is... well, I hope I'll never see her again. And if we do, then make it a labyrinth game. A hard one.

She doesn't ask for directions because to her she...isn't...lost. That's the joke.

Look at this insult to men:


Or this:


Edit: All these Zoro posts. Brofists all around!
Yoshi
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:50 PM)
Yoshi's Avatar

Originally Posted by SirPenguin

Arrogance and refusal to ask directions when lost are predominantly male stereotypes

It sort of feels like you were looking for something to be offended over and sort of missed the whole point altogether

Naivity in the way she is depicted is not exactly a typical male stereotype. And no I am not looking for something to be offended with, in fact, other than the waifu shit in Fire Emblem this is the first time I have been offended with Nintendo's stuff. Hero rescuing the pretty girl in order to keep the story short & simple? Fine by me. Samus Aran in Metroid Other M? Not exactly flattering maybe, but overall fine (the game itself is shit though). But Linkle? I cringed my way through her campaign.

Originally Posted by UnemployedVillain

Do female characters have to be perfect and not have personality faults now? Because she sounds like Zoro from One Piece with the getting lost thing

No, certainly not what I am saying. I don't know who Zoro is, but from what I have experienced with One Piece, I wouldn't exactly put that on a pedestral for good writing.
Frozenprince
Banned
(03-28-2016, 10:50 PM)

Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

This is a stereotype for a reason.

I mean hell it's a stupidly common trope in Japan, look at all the Zoro stuff that's been posted (which never stops being funny).

SirPenguin
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:50 PM)

Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

...what

What a strange opinion. Have you never consumed any other piece of media? Probably the first thing I thought of in reading this is Michael Scott from The Office being so incompetent he drives his car into a lake
Mesoian
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:50 PM)
Mesoian's Avatar

Originally Posted by Yoshi

Having enjoyed the luxurious amount of extra time that comes with a NeoGAF ban, I had to find another way of wasting said times instead of being productive and what better way to waste ones time than to play a Warriors game? Well, not exactly my thoughts, but the same effect, anyway. So, I have played through Hyrule Warriors Legends on Nintendo 3DS (yes, old model, yes, framerate is shit, but the map screen is lag free and almost all enemies can be defeated by (B-B-B-A)* anyway), including the five new missions based around Linkle, the new female Link-look-alike. However, even though I am notoriously not one to beg for a female Link (and please, I don't intend to discuss the importance of one either way in this thread; hard to keep out of ones own threads ;)), I was insulted by Linkle's writing. Of course, if you are interested in Hyrule Warriors Legends' story and don't want to be spoiled, do not read on and leave the thread.

The whole story about Linkle is
(1) Even though she runs around with a map and a compass, she is completely incapable of finding her way,
(2) Obviously, even though she's given numerous options, fighting alongside Hyrule's warriors, she's also unwilling to ask for the way, so either she does not even recognise she has no orientation whatsoever, or she is to proud to ask - neither is particularly clever
(3) The only other thing we get to know of her is that she is convinced she is someone special. In a prickish way. While Link always seemed quite humble about being told he's the legendary hero, Linkle cannot get herself to stop shouting to the world she is the legendary hero because her granny told her so. Maybe she is, the game doesn't exactly say either way, but she certainly is outspoken about it.

I think her very victory animation is a culmination of her whole story line:
https://youtu.be/oXYx7Zxt310?t=502
After every mission (bar the final one, where she somehow reaches Hyrule Castle) she has won, she looks at her map, making strange (and rather stupid sounding) noises, then points in the wrong direction and runs with a convinced "josh" into said direction. Even if we take the signpost just as a visual cue that she is running into the wrong direction and not an actual signpost, this is rather annoying. I'm not quick to complain about sexist depiction of characters in games, but Linkle is... well, I hope I'll never see her again. And if we do, then make it a labyrinth game. A hard one.

...so she's Ryoga?



The stubborn person who refuses to ask for directions and gets constantly lost is a pretty old trope dude.

Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.


...are you serious?
Sub Boss
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:51 PM)
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You put too much thought into this.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:51 PM)
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Seriously, she's very purposely a tongue-in-cheek parody of Link. Instead of being the humble, silent chosen one that goes on the hero's path almost by accident to saving the land she is loud, narcissistic and confidently runs off in the exact wrong direction on baseless delusions of grandeur.
Last edited by Dr. Black Jack; 03-28-2016 at 10:55 PM.
Calamari41
41 > 38
(03-28-2016, 10:51 PM)
Calamari41's Avatar

Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

Are you kidding? "Lost and won't ask for directions" is THE male stereotype.
Xeteh
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:52 PM)
Xeteh's Avatar

Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

Or like the above linked examples of Zoro who gets lost going in a straight line.
AlucardGV
Banned
(03-28-2016, 10:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Mesoian

...so she's Ryoga?



The stubborn person who refuses to ask for directions and gets constantly lost is a pretty old trope dude.

damn, anticipated

+1 for ryouga
-Horizon-
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:52 PM)
-Horizon-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by More Fun To Compute

Most male heroes in manga are as dumb as bricks. If you have heroes that are too perfect in every way it's like some crappy fan fiction. Nobody likes it because it feels phoney.

If she was perfect you can be sure someone here would be making a thread calling her a wish fulfillment Mary Sue.
Enduin
No bald cap? Lies!
(03-28-2016, 10:52 PM)
Enduin's Avatar
Traits themselves like that aren't a problem, it's how they're depicted that will make the character great or stink.
Frozenprince
Banned
(03-28-2016, 10:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Calamari41

Are you kidding? "Lost and won't ask for directions" is THE male stereotype.

I can't remember a car commercial, especially from the 90's that had a couple driving that DOESN'T involve this in one way or another.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
(03-28-2016, 10:52 PM)
She's like the Scrappy Doo of the Zelda franchise.
UnemployedVillain
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by SirPenguin

...what

What a strange opinion. Have you never consumed any other piece of media? Probably the first thing I thought of in reading this is Michael Scott from The Office being so incompetent he drives his car into a lake

You forgot the part about him doing so simply because the GPS told him to. Dumb male characters without a sense of direction (or with other dumb traits) is INCREDIBLY common. Look at nearly EVERY sitcom in the US and if there's a dumb character chances are overwhelmingly so that he's male
OricWindstar
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not just that, look at the sequence, no one would depict a male not knowing where to go like this. Well, normally I wouldn't expect it for a female either, but well, here it is.

What? That is one of the biggest stereotypes to depict a male doing. Even the way that is shot is similar to the male (usually a father figure) saying he doesn't need to ask for directions, and then the camera pans out to show a sign suggesting he's going the wrong way.

Your grasping at straws here. She's got plenty of talents and charms. And if her biggest fault is that she has an extremely bad sense of direction, I think it's going to be okay. I'd argue she's actually exactly the type of female gaming character we need more of, because her main character trait isn't that "she's the girl." She's a goofy, fun character that can kick your ass with crossbows.
AcademicSaucer
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by UnemployedVillain

This is selection vision at its finest. You're literally seeing what you want to, because this is so common it's a trope

Yes, its a trope

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nseOfDirection
MrChom
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mesoian

...so she's Ryoga?



The stubborn person who refuses to ask for directions and gets constantly lost is a pretty old trope dude.



...are you serious?

You have no idea where you're going do you, eh, P-Chan.....
Calamari41
41 > 38
(03-28-2016, 10:53 PM)
Calamari41's Avatar

Originally Posted by Frozenprince

I can't remember a car commercial, especially from the 90's that had a couple driving that DOESN'T involve this in one way or another.

There's a Geico commercial running right now where Tarzan is lost and won't let Jane ask for directions.
Kyou
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:53 PM)
Kyou's Avatar
I can't believe she has a character flaw, how unrealistic and insulting.
akidnamededdy
Banned
(03-28-2016, 10:53 PM)
The dialogue surrounding Hyrule Warriors has always been hilarious to me. Early on people were all proud of Nintendo for including so many female characters in the cast, but then that turned into people calling it some kind of Link's Harem Fantasy. Then the Linkle concept art was shown and that started off the whole WE NEED A FEMALE LINK movement that infects nearly every Zelda thread now, and now here we are with "Linkle is fucking stupid and this is awful."

neogaf.gif

Not saying that everyone feels this way because obviously it's not true. It's just funny.

At least she's a freaking force of nature on the actual battlefield.
Last edited by akidnamededdy; 03-28-2016 at 10:57 PM.
Sylas
Member
(03-28-2016, 10:54 PM)

Originally Posted by Yoshi

Naivity in the way she is depicted is not exactly a typical male stereotype. And no I am not looking for something to be offended with, in fact, other than the waifu shit in Fire Emblem this is the first time I have been offended with Nintendo's stuff. Hero rescuing the pretty girl in order to keep the story short & simple? Fine by me. Samus Aran in Metroid Other M? Not exactly flattering maybe, but overall fine (the game itself is shit though). But Linkle? I cringed my way through her campaign.

No, certainly not what I am saying. I don't know who Zoro is, but from what I have experienced with One Piece, I wouldn't exactly put that on a pedestral for good writing.

You seem to be conflating not liking the character with being offended by it. How is she, in any way, offensive? Does she fail at things because she's a girl, or is she simply brash? Does she get belittled by the male characters in the story because she's a girl? Are her negative traits because of her gender--or are they simply dumb character flaws that any number of characters have.

You say you aren't asking for perfection, but you literally are. You're asking for someone that doesn't have these character flaws because you, yourself, don't like them. They fit precisely the same on a male character as they do a female character. They are gender-agnostic.

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