Yeah that's what I meant.
And you walk from Anor Londo the Irithyll to Farron Keep where Dusk and Elizabeth are, etc. The fact that DFS is connected to Lothric Castle doesn't mean anything.
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Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
Yeah that's what I meant.
And you walk from Anor Londo the Irithyll to Farron Keep where Dusk and Elizabeth are, etc. The fact that DFS is connected to Lothric Castle doesn't mean anything.
Ah, you meant first in relation to the one we visit first, I thought you were speaking chronologically
. Man Ludleth is a mysterious guy, such a strange little man, willed himself lord too. Clearly a parallell to the Furtive Pygmy, who also picked up the scraps of whatever was left to become a lord.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Something was bothering me for a while, and just now watching the last episode of ENBs playthrough I finally looked it up. You know I like to, IN MY HEADCANON, think that Aldrich's coming vision of "the age of deep sea/waters" is a sly reference (more like a wink and a nod) to Bloodborne? Well.
Here is the Aldrich Faithful covenant description. "The holy symbol of the Cathedral of the Deep, and crest of those who see beyond fire to the age of deep waters."
Bloodborne's Deep Sea rune
Cathedral of the Deep's symbol
I rest my case. Like I said, this is just headcanon, Bloodborne can't "officially" be part of the Souls universe because Sony owns it or whatever, but you can't tell me this isn't intentional.
Here is the Aldrich Faithful covenant description. "The holy symbol of the Cathedral of the Deep, and crest of those who see beyond fire to the age of deep waters."
Bloodborne's Deep Sea rune
Cathedral of the Deep's symbol
I rest my case. Like I said, this is just headcanon, Bloodborne can't "officially" be part of the Souls universe because Sony owns it or whatever, but you can't tell me this isn't intentional.
Lux R7
Member
Something was bothering me for a while, and just now watching the last episode of ENBs playthrough I finally looked it up. You know I like to, IN MY HEADCANON, think that Aldrich's coming vision of "the age of deep sea/waters" is a sly reference (more like a wink and a nod) to Bloodborne? Well.
Here is the Aldrich Faithful covenant description. "The holy symbol of the Cathedral of the Deep, and crest of those who see beyond fire to the age of deep waters."
Bloodborne's Deep Sea rune
Cathedral of the Deep's symbol
I rest my case. Like I said, this is just headcanon, Bloodborne can't "officially" be part of the Souls universe because Sony owns it or whatever, but you can't tell me this isn't intentional.
Holy shit.
This is so good!
I went to read the rune description:
This rune means "Deep Sea" and grants augmented resistance. Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark
guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth.
Eldritch, wow
This is a great find. And people think there's no more lore to pull apart!Something was bothering me for a while, and just now watching the last episode of ENBs playthrough I finally looked it up. You know I like to, IN MY HEADCANON, think that Aldrich's coming vision of "the age of deep sea/waters" is a sly reference (more like a wink and a nod) to Bloodborne? Well.
Here is the Aldrich Faithful covenant description. "The holy symbol of the Cathedral of the Deep, and crest of those who see beyond fire to the age of deep waters."
Bloodborne's Deep Sea rune
Cathedral of the Deep's symbol
I rest my case. Like I said, this is just headcanon, Bloodborne can't "officially" be part of the Souls universe because Sony owns it or whatever, but you can't tell me this isn't intentional.
So here's some crazy ass speculation from yours truly.
Is the Soulfeeder mentioned in the description of the Skull Ring related somehow to the first flame?
" Even after its accursed corpse was burned, it is said that the pungent stench of souls left the air permanently stained."
The First Flame appearing (The Soulfeeder being burned) permanently altered the state of the world by introducing disparity, from a grey balanced world, to a world in constant change and turmoil, a permanent stain on the world itself.
Is the Soulfeeder mentioned in the description of the Skull Ring related somehow to the first flame?
" Even after its accursed corpse was burned, it is said that the pungent stench of souls left the air permanently stained."
The First Flame appearing (The Soulfeeder being burned) permanently altered the state of the world by introducing disparity, from a grey balanced world, to a world in constant change and turmoil, a permanent stain on the world itself.
Something was bothering me for a while, and just now watching the last episode of ENBs playthrough I finally looked it up. You know I like to, IN MY HEADCANON, think that Aldrich's coming vision of "the age of deep sea/waters" is a sly reference (more like a wink and a nod) to Bloodborne? Well.
Here is the Aldrich Faithful covenant description. "The holy symbol of the Cathedral of the Deep, and crest of those who see beyond fire to the age of deep waters."
Bloodborne's Deep Sea rune
Cathedral of the Deep's symbol
I rest my case. Like I said, this is just headcanon, Bloodborne can't "officially" be part of the Souls universe because Sony owns it or whatever, but you can't tell me this isn't intentional.
I feel like it's been pretty clear to have been intentional for a while now. I just hope that's not all there is to it, since I want all this Aldritch/Deep stuff to actually tie into the established DS world in an organic and satisfying way. If it's just something thrown in there because Miyazaki wanted to link his worlds together, I'll be disappointed.
The Skull Ring is found in Ludleth's ashes... Are you suggesting he is the Soul Feeder? D:
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Honestly I think that's all it is, and all we'll get on what happens after the age of fire is truly over. But I got no problem with that, I can see Bloodborne being some future of the Souls universe. Shit's still fucked up but we got guns now! And there were enough people insistent that "Deep sea/waters" was a reference to the Abyss that I wanted to make the case as well as I could.
Lux R7
Member
And Angels, i think
I want to speculate that the angelic themes and Gertrude represent a side in opposition to the Deep but they could well be two sides of one coin.
Lux R7
Member
On this theme, i don't think that the angels that visited Gertrude were the golden armored guys, i think they were granted wings cause of their faith.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Definitely a subtle nod to another game of theirs at a minimum. Kind of like how Patches can't be literally the same guy in all 4 games, but it's a little tie to keep them together, and how the Moonlight Great Sword being in every or near every From game doesn't mean they're all in the same universe.Something was bothering me for a while, and just now watching the last episode of ENBs playthrough I finally looked it up. You know I like to, IN MY HEADCANON, think that Aldrich's coming vision of "the age of deep sea/waters" is a sly reference (more like a wink and a nod) to Bloodborne? Well.
Here is the Aldrich Faithful covenant description. "The holy symbol of the Cathedral of the Deep, and crest of those who see beyond fire to the age of deep waters."
Bloodborne's Deep Sea rune
Cathedral of the Deep's symbol
I rest my case. Like I said, this is just headcanon, Bloodborne can't "officially" be part of the Souls universe because Sony owns it or whatever, but you can't tell me this isn't intentional.
Of course, Bloodborne meshes better with the likes of Dark Souls better than any of those do with Armored Core... But in my head it'll be just be a knowing nod.
Lux R7
Member
Yeah i know, not really sure about this. Maybe serpents have angelic wings now, but if that's a heretical forbidden cult, why are there statues in the castle?
Just wondering if anybody had seen or thought about this: the deacons have hair (or something) coming out of their eyes. If you don't look too close, it looks like runny mascara, but if you get close (only really possible as an invader) and look from the side, there's clearly some thickness. It comes out from their cheeks a few inches. Not really sure if there's any meaning, but a weird nice detail.
Something was bothering me for a while, and just now watching the last episode of ENBs playthrough I finally looked it up. You know I like to, IN MY HEADCANON, think that Aldrich's coming vision of "the age of deep sea/waters" is a sly reference (more like a wink and a nod) to Bloodborne? Well.
Here is the Aldrich Faithful covenant description. "The holy symbol of the Cathedral of the Deep, and crest of those who see beyond fire to the age of deep waters."
Bloodborne's Deep Sea rune
Cathedral of the Deep's symbol
I rest my case. Like I said, this is just headcanon, Bloodborne can't "officially" be part of the Souls universe because Sony owns it or whatever, but you can't tell me this isn't intentional.
Well candelabras aren't exactly uncommon in churches
"A secret symbol left by Caryll, runesmith of Byrgenwerth.
This transcription of the Great Ones' inhuman voices depicts downreaching currents.
This rune means "Deep Sea" and grants augmented resistance. Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth.
Overcome this hindrance, and seek what is yours."
But yeah, these downreaching current look an awful like a candelabra.
Anyway, that made me look up the Aldrich Faithful symbol.
Sooo, you know how the sun looks different in the very last moments at the kiln?
Nah, just a crackpot theory, but it still fits with the First Flame and how it changed everything. I did come to think of it due to how Ludleth talks about willing himself lord, which made me think of the Furtive Pygmy and the whole reason for the First Flame appearing in the first place.
Edit: Now that you mention it though, what if willing himself lord meant sacrificing himself to create the first flame, which left him permanently scarred with no legs? He does talk about the *first* Firekeeper, so he could have been around for the earliest days of the First Flame, at the very least. This is going into Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching, of course, but it's fun
Could be that the original angel statues were defaced and the heads replaced with the Primordial Serpents, due to the other faction viewing them as their salvation? It's not like defaced/decapitated statues isn't a theme in Lothric.
Bloodborne had disappointing lore compared to Souls, 3 is on par with BB. The only interesting thing about BB was the great ones/lovecraft twist. Everything else was just as ambiguous and patchy and was only partially resolved by the DLC.
So, maybe wait for the 2-part DLC before casting judgement on a month old game.
Can't disagree more, Bloodborne was on another level in lore and setting compared to the Dark Souls sequels. They have good personal stories, but the cycles, always going back to the same core stuff, big plot holes in 2 and lot of unexplained stuff in 3 (hopefully DLCs will remedy some of that), 3 forgetting every interesting bit from 2, the convenient convoluted time and space excuse for every bit that doesn't make sense...ehh. Dark Souls never needed sequels and they made a mess of the setting. The more personal stories are still very good but the high lore concepts are a complete mess. There are interesting things but without Dlcs giving more elements at the moment they are just that, and it's a shame that lore hunting seems to be already over until DLCs come out. We only need Vaaty declaring Aldrich ate Nito and Nashandra to seal the deal
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I love Souls and all but Bloodborne blows it out of the water imo. It's more of a tone thing than a story thing... but what I love about Bloodborne is that inscrutability, the inability to understand everything, is BUILT IN to the world. The idea that the truth is right there, but if you saw all of it, you'd go insane. The sky and the cosmos are one, etc. It's so good.
I'm holding off judgement on how well Dark Souls 3 wraps it up until the DLC is out, but without that DLC, it's kind of a huge mess right now.
I'm holding off judgement on how well Dark Souls 3 wraps it up until the DLC is out, but without that DLC, it's kind of a huge mess right now.
That ring was transposed from the Soulfeeder's soul, presumably by Ludleth, so it's unlikely he did that from his own soul. At the same time, that all he leaves after he surrenders his fire. We don't get his soul. So it's a bit ambiguous to say the least.
I really wonder who Ludleth was exactly, him, the firekeeper and the handmaid are the most mysterious characters in the game. Well I guess the firekeeper might just be an unkindled too. But Ludleth and the shrine handmaid are suspicious as fuck.
Edit: Now that you mention it though, what if willing himself lord meant sacrificing himself to create the first flame, which left him permanently scarred with no legs? He does talk about the *first* Firekeeper, so he could have been around for the earliest days of the First Flame, at the very least. This is going into Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching, of course, but it's fun
Yeah I thought that as well. He might have been the first one to link the flame after Gwyn. But I guess the thing is, maybe "his" firekeeper got her eyes from a chosen undead who betrayed the flame, like we can do.
That's the Kiln of the First flame. They re-designed it though, but we still have a leaking sun with fucked up landscape rolled over into a huge mess. Though I suppose they took the concept and re-purposed it, From seems to like to do that if the Lodeleth/Ludleth -> Lothric naming shenanigans is anything to go by
This is what I was thinking. What if Vendrick was just the leader of the Drang Knights, he conquered the lands after all, and a king needs an army.
I've seen this sentiment elsewhere on the internet, so I want to address it.
It is CLEARLY a wink-wink nudge to Bloodborne, but he's also made sure that it has a plausible explanation for its existence in the Souls universe.
Unless the DLC expands on this in some meaningful way, this is as satisfying an answer as we're likely to get.
I mean, we even got the Storm Ruler swords from Demon's Souls, which people seem to actively want to be loosely connected with Dark Souls, oddly enough. There are references and crossovers, and if they make a new IP (Space Souls please), you can bet your ass there will be references to the other games.
Orochinagis
Member
The game keeps killing all Dark Souls 1 characters, damm
DS3 Storm Ruler looks nothing like Demon's Souls Storm Ruler though.
More Fun To Compute
Member
There are things specific to the game that are probably similarly interesting to Bloodborne but what makes it frustrating and difficult is trying to find any coherent narrative that spans all the games. This game is chock full of references to Dark Souls, which is still the more interesting and well understood game world. They mostly don't seem to go anywhere. It's also apparently full of references to Demon's Souls and Bloodborne which muddies the water even more if you are actually trying to take the devs seriously and not think about the game as some sort of super self aware post modern, ending of lost sort of deal.
VaultBoy101
Member
The more I dig into DS3, the more I prefer DS2's handling of the lore and presentation. One thing that I feel is lacking in DS3 that was present in DS1 and DS2 is/are key figures. Gwyn, Nito, the Witches, Seathe, Oscar (and the other characters had actual... character), they were characters of great importance that you sought and understood to some degree with Gwyn being the central lynch pin of the story. You chased after him and he was the goal and driving force of everything. And at the end, you fight a tired old man who may well be the easiest boss in the late half of the game. And nothing but a somber piano plays.
DS2 had the Herald, Vendrick, Nashandra (and her sisters), and Aldia. You are chasing Vendrick until that moment when you finally reach what little is left of him, having till that point passed all of his trials for you: his elite knights, the Looking Glassknight who tested would be pursuers of the king, made your way through the anti-Dark lakes and singing ladies, and bested the king's last and best faithful knight in Velstadt. And then you realize Nashandra has been behind everything.
DS3 has... some dudes in chairs. I just felt no real connection to any of the Lords of Cinder barring the twins (since they actually had some story built in around them directly). The Firekeeper may as well be mute. Andre and Karla are about the only interesting characters.
Light Firelink is your Firelink. People end up there forming connections with you, not with Ludleth.
DS2 had the Herald, Vendrick, Nashandra (and her sisters), and Aldia. You are chasing Vendrick until that moment when you finally reach what little is left of him, having till that point passed all of his trials for you: his elite knights, the Looking Glassknight who tested would be pursuers of the king, made your way through the anti-Dark lakes and singing ladies, and bested the king's last and best faithful knight in Velstadt. And then you realize Nashandra has been behind everything.
DS3 has... some dudes in chairs. I just felt no real connection to any of the Lords of Cinder barring the twins (since they actually had some story built in around them directly). The Firekeeper may as well be mute. Andre and Karla are about the only interesting characters.
Light Firelink is your Firelink. People end up there forming connections with you, not with Ludleth.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I like the Firekeeper for the dialogue she gives you when you first show her the Eyes, and her role in the endings, but otherwise yeah, co-signed ^. Dark Souls 2 had a really strong narrative drive from Drangleic Castle through Vendrick, the likes of which I haven't felt in any other Souls game. The moment when I first stepped into Vendrick's tomb is probably my nr 1 Souls moment... up there with the ending of The Old Hunters, anyway.
Reposting from OT because it makes more sense here:
You know what? I saw them two. Multiple white ghosts that looked like pontiff Knight's walk away from the cathedral and then disappear. I just realized after looking at your picture, they look like the black Knight ghosts that walk through the area between the lordvessel and the kiln in Dark Souls 1. I wonder if they're related?What's the dealio with thisI'm seeing inghostBoreal Valley?
Walks a few steps and then disappears. Wut.
To quote a small part of the OP, I wanted to comment on this. I also got this feeling while playing the game. That linking the fire was just continuing this cycle which turns the world to shit by the end. And Ludleth saw the outcome and wanted to change the course of history (he says this in his dialogue, that he created this vacuum to change the direction of the current existence).
It's funny, because of the way things always seem to turn out, I felt that the actual 'good' thing to do,realistically, was to have the firekeeper snuff out the fire. I have yet to see the ending but I know of it and I want to see what happens in the final scene, which I will get to in my NG+ playthrough. Although, she does say, when you give her the eyes, that she sees tiny flames in the distance. I'm not quite sure what that means, other than that the cycle would still continue? Almost as if the only way to actually change the history is to be the Usurper of Fire.
To say that DS3 just has 'some dudes in chairs' is a little bit too simplistic. They are Cinder Lords that have strayed from their duty. You are basically bringing them back kicking and screaming to their thrones. I thought that was made pretty clear and was a cool bit of info. Also, most of the characters have questlines in DS3. Did you not see them? They go a bit further in giving some personality compared to previous NPCs. Sirris of the Sunless Realms, for example, with her home being Irithyl and being a Darkmoon, starkly oposing the Redfingers. You have Siegward, who, has a connection to Yhorm (I just found that out actually, which is pretty cool. And you get to fight with him!)
Hawkwood, who you you end up having to fight, who was a deserter of the Legion.
The characters in DS3 are anything but lifeless. There is a lot going on.
We also have the mystery behind Pontiff Sullyvahn, with his outrider Knights, the connections to The Dancer and Yorshka. I find all this stuff pretty fascinating and is right up there with any of the other high points of the lore in the series.
I do agree, though, that the Firelink Maiden is basically missing a lot of dialogue for most of the game. You finally get some great character development late in the game, but they could have put more dialogue. Still, I don't see the Emerald Maiden being anything especially interesting, with her long, boring dialogue before every time you talk to her. She did have more variations, though.
So the pus of man (which I associate with Dark) consumed Lothric Castle. That explains the butterflies and red-eyed hollows everywhere.
Makes me wonder why all the Londor pilgrims targeted Lotrhic, though. Was it hoping that Lorian and Lothric would become Dark Lords by refusing the call?
Makes me wonder why all the Londor pilgrims targeted Lotrhic, though. Was it hoping that Lorian and Lothric would become Dark Lords by refusing the call?
Yeah and it's not like Anastacia or the Doll had a ton of dialogue either. But I guess the difference is that there is absolutely no background on DS3's firekeeper. She seems complete "outside" the game. But if her set is in the DLC maybe there will be some info.
Her set is in the game now, though.
Not the crown.
It's very hard to see the motivation of the Lords of Cinders as to why they abandoned their thrones. However, it is clear that Ludleth knows "what's up" when you show him the firekeeper's eye and even the firekeeper hints that Ludleth knows more about her than herself. I'll reserve any more lore theories til after the DLCs because right now, the game lore is pretty straightforward.
Whilst this isn't totally Souls style, I would've really enjoyed the exposition of whooping a Lord of cinder and instead of vanquishing them, they collapse and go back to fire link shrine. Then they wait on the throne until they're all there and provide dialogue/lore etc. similar to Ludleth.
Interesting theory on Reddit about how Nameless King may be Faraam.
Definitely some grasping at straws but it's a sound theory.
Definitely some grasping at straws but it's a sound theory.
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