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Leaked papers allege US pressuring EU over TTIP free trade deal

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oti

Banned
GMO foods have been tested for years without any issues being found. Testing something over and over on the off-chance you get a different result is pretty damn anti-science.

I'm not against GMO foods. But the principle of "let's just sell stuff and we'll stop once someone dies" is terrible.
 

Yoda

Member
Yeah. Free trade has been good overall.

However, this deal doesn't seem to be a good one.

It's only good if there are two honest partners on each side. Free Trade in this century is nothing short of a race to the bottom for labor wages (most likely EVERYONE who reads this forum). You can't compete with slave labor, which is what multi-nationals will flock to once it's legal.
 

Kurdel

Banned
I'm not against GMO foods. But the principle of "let's just sell stuff and we'll stop once someone dies" is terrible.

I believe Canada is a great middle ground here, where we take food safety seriously and don't systematicaly panic about GMO's.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
This is how all trade deals work. If one party is blocking an import, you threaten to block an export until they stop. There is a lot not to like about the TTIP but I agree with Obama threatening German auto trade in order to help US businesses.
 
Why? Why do people get their panties in a bunch about this of all things? Corporations have been able to sue governments for a LONG time.
There's a big difference between resolving disputes in a domestic court of law and a private arbitration ruled by corporate & state appointed lawyers.The number of ISDS cases are on the rise and this will only add to the problem.
 
GMO foods have been tested for years without any issues being found. Testing something over and over on the off-chance you get a different result is pretty damn anti-science.

That's missing the entire point.

The EU wants to test with its own standards for what enters its own market, not what the corporations have tested in the U.S and wants to force into the market.

The U.S FDA doesn't test it, the U.S leaves it up to manufacturers to test. This is different in the EU, it is regulated, it follows the precautionary principle.

Why do you think the EU should just open the gates wide for U.S manufacturers with their own testing to enter the EU market? Why should these U.S manufacturers with their own testing just be allowed to enter the market and not abide by EU testing standards? If you pass the tests then it can enter the market.

So if you want to bring your food into the EU market, you go through our regulations. People shouldn't let U.S manufacturers slip past EU legislation and consumer/public safety protection. That is ridiculous, the food stuffs coming into the EU from the U.S should not be on the whim of what some U.S manufacturers have done on their own. Also from what I'm aware of, these U.S manufacturers don't even need to submit detailed information involved in them to the FDA, so even with all these tests by the manufacturers, you don't even know if you're getting all the results you should be if there isn't even any regulation/requirements on the results from these tests in the first place.
 
Why? Why do people get their panties in a bunch about this of all things? Corporations have been able to sue governments for a LONG time.

Because similar courts have been used in the by big tobacco to bully small countries into not putting through democratically decided anti-tobacco legislation. Similarly, it could be used against democratically decided tax increases. See the current case between Costa Rica and Walmart. The worst part is that there will be no public oversight over these courts. So it will be hard to know whether shady shit is going down, and to hold anyone accountable. This is my main objection to the TTIP
 

F1Fan

Banned
This is how all trade deals work. If one party is blocking an import, you threaten to block an export until they stop. There is a lot not to like about the TTIP but I agree with Obama threatening German auto trade in order to help US businesses.

No it is not. The US wants the EU to change certain laws regarding EU food safety and testing procedures, so that they will be able to sell us their junk and in turn harm the wellbeing of EU citizens.

In case you haven't noticed, when it comes to food, the USA is probably in the last place out of all 1st world countries when it comes to providing safe food to their citizens. Your obese levels and health expectency is at a bottom of any list you look at.

By now threatening to ban car imports in order to force the hand of the EU, well that's as low as any government can get. You would expect that shit from Russia or some other 3rd world country.

So much so for freedom and free will.
 

aeolist

Banned
What's an embarrassment is the USA government pursuit of forcing this issue on another government. So much for free will and freedom to self determination the US like to say.

Looking at the obesity epidemic in the USA and their low life expectancy, is it not a surprise that we don't want to try that shit.

Really anything that USA proposes around food, should be avoided at all cost. Your track record regarding food is awful.

every country uses tariffs and export restrictions as leverage during trade deals. you're completely delusional if you think the EU isn't doing exactly the same thing.

and nobody's trying to stuff your food full of HFCS, you just need to open EU markets to US products. if people don't want to buy the food it won't sell.

i'm opposed to deals like this and the TPP because of copyright and patent fuckery but the food deal is a non-story.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
No it is not. The US wants the EU to change certain laws regarding EU food safety, so that they will be able to sell us their junk and in turn harm the wellbeing of EU citizens.

In case you haven't noticed, when it comes to food, the USA is probably in the last place out of all 1st world countries when it comes to providing safe food to their citizens. Your obese levels and health expectency is at a bottom of any list you look at.

By now threatening to ban car imports in order to force the hand of the EU, well that's as low as any government can get. You would expect that shit from Russia or some other 3rd world country.

So much so for freedom and free will.

That is how trade works. If one side is blocking something, you block something in return until they stop. I think Obama should ban German Auto imports until the EU finishes its GMO review process. After all, it is not like German cars have been meeting environmental regulations in the US.
 

F1Fan

Banned
That is how trade works. If one side is blocking something, you block something in return until they stop. I think Obama should ban German Auto imports until the EU finishes its GMO review process. After all, it is not like German cars have been meeting environmental regulations in the US.

I would rather take the deal of banning cars and not accept food that in a decade or two will have us at USA level of obesity and deaths.

No thanks.

I wonder if USA will also put pressure on EU to change their laws to start accepting gun sales to every citizen in the EU.

Its a slippery slope, that I say no thanks, fuck off.
 

gruenel

Member
GMO foods have been tested for years without any issues being found. Testing something over and over on the off-chance you get a different result is pretty damn anti-science.

I'm absolutely pro-GMO but it's not like you can just test a handful of GMO food and then consider each and every future invention safe, you have to test all of them. That's not anti-science at all.
 

aeolist

Banned
I would rather take the deal of banning cars and not accept food that in a decade or two will have us at USA level of obesity and deaths.

i guess you really want VW to collapse completely then

BMW would be pretty fucked as well
 

oti

Banned
That is how trade works. If one side is blocking something, you block something in return until they stop. I think Obama should ban German Auto imports until the EU finishes its GMO review process. After all, it is not like German cars have been meeting environmental regulations in the US.

lol, Volkswagen sure did mess that up. I know 6-year-olds who know that they lied. It will take years to build up trust again.
 

F1Fan

Banned
every country uses tariffs and export restrictions as leverage during trade deals. you're completely delusional if you think the EU isn't doing exactly the same thing.

and nobody's trying to stuff your food full of HFCS, you just need to open EU markets to US products. if people don't want to buy the food it won't sell.

i'm opposed to deals like this and the TPP because of copyright and patent fuckery but the food deal is a non-story.

Non story? Have you seen the levels of their obesity rates and life expectancy? Food issue is the biggest one out of all in the TTIP deals. You consume food every day, your whole well being depends on what you consume in your body.

Why consider changing existing laws, that have been successful, in order to introduce some half-tested shit
 

F1Fan

Banned
i guess you really want VW to collapse completely then

BMW would be pretty fucked as well

World is bigger than USA. And if VW collapse, well tough shit, just another corrupted corporation looking at $ than wellbeing of their customers and environment.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
I would rather take the deal of banning cars and not accept food that in a decade or two will have us at USA level of obesity and deaths.

No thanks.

I wonder if USA will also put pressure on EU to change their laws to start accepting gun sales to every citizen in the EU.

Its a slippery slope, that I say no thanks, fuck off.

Yeah that is your opinion of course and it is perfectly fine. But obviously a US president is going to push for US interests. There is nothing unusual about what is going on in the OP at all. Happens all the time. Just Greenpeace fear mongering over GMOs.
 

iddqd

Member
This is a good chance for all the green parties in the EU to get back into the limelight that all the small right wing ones took.
Make this thing your fight and maybe win some elections.

This and all the immigration stuff could be a crazy election bomb of people that feel generally helpless and not heard going to vote.
 

F1Fan

Banned
Yeah that is your opinion of course and it is perfectly fine. But obviously a US president is going to push for US interests. There is nothing unusual about what is going on in the OP at all. Happens all the time. Just Greenpeace fear mongering over GMOs.

Dude, the food you guys are consuming there is not in the interest of US citizens. It is in the interest of certain corporations, that I can ensure you.
 

YoungFa

Member
Yeah that is your opinion of course and it is perfectly fine. But obviously a US president is going to push for US interests. There is nothing unusual about what is going on in the OP at all. Happens all the time. Just Greenpeace fear mongering over GMOs.
Its not just gmos... also its in the interest of US companies not US citizens. US citizens would profit if their country had the same standards as the EU.
 
Kinda hilarious that's not even the worst the US did in regards to this, the whole deal should have been off the table when it was revealed they bugged the conference rooms.
 

Gutek

Member
I would rather take the deal of banning cars and not accept food that in a decade or two will have us at USA level of obesity and deaths.

No thanks.

I wonder if USA will also put pressure on EU to change their laws to start accepting gun sales to every citizen in the EU.

Its a slippery slope, that I say no thanks, fuck off.


Germany is dealing with similar obesity levels to the US. Sorry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_Germany

In 2007, The German obesity rate was considered at the same level as with the American obesity rate.[8]
 

F1Fan

Banned
Show me the science then.

Have you looked at your obesity rates and low living age? I am sure the two aren't related....

And I am sure I could find one study to support that fact, but I can't be bothered to look for it. Large parts of the world don't consume or support GMO's.

Think what you want to think.
 
No it is not. The US wants the EU to change certain laws regarding EU food safety and testing procedures, so that they will be able to sell us their junk and in turn harm the wellbeing of EU citizens.

In case you haven't noticed, when it comes to food, the USA is probably in the last place out of all 1st world countries when it comes to providing safe food to their citizens. Your obese levels and health expectency is at a bottom of any list you look at.

By now threatening to ban car imports in order to force the hand of the EU, well that's as low as any government can get. You would expect that shit from Russia or some other 3rd world country.

So much so for freedom and free will.

I don't think you understand diplomacy at all. You negotiate things, and you use leverage. The US has the most powerful economy in the world, so of course that means the US has more leverage than European countries (even if we consider the EU to be a single entity, it's nowhere close to the US in terms of global relevance).

What you're asking for is one-way free trade. German cars should be able to be sold in the US with as few barriers as possible (and should never be threatened) while the US jumps through hoops for local EU products. This is a great position to take in a negotiation since it's all positive for you. It's a terrible position to legitimately hold since no one in a negotiation would ever cede you everything you want. Want to sell cars in the US, the largest market for them in the world? Play ball (at least, as much as you can).
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
You're forgetting about other factors like health care, cost of medical procedures, poverty, etc.

Which are all entirely the US own doing. It's not Germany's fault it has better gun control and an actual effective social safety net for it's citizen's.
 
Seems like a shit deal for EU companies and most important of all, EU citizens. Finally Greenpeace achieves something worthwhile, publicly blowing the lid on this.
 

Gutek

Member
Which are all entirely the US own doing. It's not Germany's fault it has better gun control and an actual effective social safety net for it's citizen's.

What you are saying has absolutely fuck all to do with what we were discussing.
 

F1Fan

Banned
I don't think you understand diplomacy at all. You negotiate things, and you use leverage. The US has the most powerful economy in the world, so of course that means the US has more leverage than European countries (even if we consider the EU to be a single entity, it's nowhere close to the US in terms of global relevance).

What you're asking for is one-way free trade. German cars should be able to be sold in the US with as few barriers as possible (and should never be threatened) while the US jumps through hoops for local EU products. This is a great position to take in a negotiation since it's all positive for you. It's a terrible position to legitimately hold since no one in a negotiation would ever cede you everything you want. Want to sell cars in the US, the largest market for them in the world? Play ball (at least, as much as you can).

Show me where I asked for one-way free trade deal and where Germany cars should be sold in USA with few berries as possible?

You're putting words into my mouth, which I have never said. Stop making BS up.

If USA wants to add further laws for cars, they can go ahead and do it, its their country, their laws. What the USA is asking the EU, is to scrap some of the environmental laws, designed to protect and benefit ordinary EU citizens. That alone tells you everything you need to know about the shit they are trying to sell.

I guess you would also support the US for forcing us to change laws, where every individual can buy guns in the EU, thus benefit US arms industry right? Where does it end?

And so what if the USA is the biggest economy in the world? Does that mean we have to bend over and accept the terms they are giving us? We also have leverage on them, e.i 500+ million market that USA corporations are having wet dreams about.

The world is bigger than USA and it will only get bigger in the future.
 

spekkeh

Banned
GMO foods have been tested for years without any issues being found. Testing something over and over on the off-chance you get a different result is pretty damn anti-science.
I'm sure a country that has no problems allowing bromides, proven carcinogens and things that land you 15 year prison sentences in some countries, being added to their sugarated, highly processed food substances that have caused the US to be the only civilized country in the world where people have gotten smaller and less old, also would have no problems letting companies tell them they found no convlusive evidence their own patented new and improved tasty food was lethal. I'm not sure what this has to do with science.
 
World is bigger than USA. And if VW collapse, well tough shit, just another corrupted corporation looking at $ than wellbeing of their customers and environment.
Volkswagen employs 610,076 people as of last year. But fuck it right. Government shouldn't take those people into account when making decisions.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
What you are saying has absolutely fuck all to do with what we were discussing.

GMO have no baseline effect oibsesity. It's not a boon nor a bust except for the companies in the business of engineerng GMO's. The one thing western countries don't lack is food and you'd be naive as fuck if you think the purpose of GMo's is to solve world hunger. If it was they'd be doing it right now and wouldn't need to be sold in Europe.

This is about company baseline plain and simple there is no noble cause here.
 

spekkeh

Banned
I don't think you understand diplomacy at all. You negotiate things, and you use leverage. The US has the most powerful economy in the world, so of course that means the US has more leverage than European countries (even if we consider the EU to be a single entity, it's nowhere close to the US in terms of global relevance).
Country/Region GDP (Millions of US$)
European Union 18,527,116
United States 17,348,075
 

Gutek

Member
GMO have no baseline effect oibsesity. It's not a boon nor a bust except for the companies in the business of engineerng GMO's. The one thing western countries don't lack is food and you'd be naive as fuck if you think the purpose of GMo's is to solve world hunger. If it was they'd be doing it right now and wouldn't need to be sold in Europe.

What the fuck are you on about? Are you sure you're quoting the right guy?
 
I don't think you understand diplomacy at all. You negotiate things, and you use leverage. The US has the most powerful economy in the world, so of course that means the US has more leverage than European countries (even if we consider the EU to be a single entity, it's nowhere close to the US in terms of global relevance).

What you're asking for is one-way free trade. German cars should be able to be sold in the US with as few barriers as possible (and should never be threatened) while the US jumps through hoops for local EU products. This is a great position to take in a negotiation since it's all positive for you. It's a terrible position to legitimately hold since no one in a negotiation would ever cede you everything you want. Want to sell cars in the US, the largest market for them in the world? Play ball (at least, as much as you can).

Are you aware of how many post-WW2 agreements are in place that force countries under trade conditions? this isnt about cars, its about nearly everything, including that katy perry song currently being played on bbc1 radio which is legally having to be played due to quota.
 

F1Fan

Banned
Volkswagen employs 610,076 people as of last year. But fuck it right. Government shouldn't take those people into account when making decisions.

Ah right, so we can look right past their wrong doing....

Too big to fail argument.

I guess you would also have no issues, if they employ slave-labour in some 3rd world countries or dump toxic waste all over the planet. We can overlook that since well...they employ a lot of people.
 
Car mfgs are now too big to fail too?
No. But looking after industries a lot of your population work in, is something that the government should do. Of course not blindly, but also not ignore it. It's not as easy as "tough shit, just another corrupted corporation."

Ah right, so we can look right past their wrong doing....

Too big to fail argument.

I guess you would also have no issues, if they employ slave-labour in some 3rd world countries or dump toxic waste all over the planet. We can overlook that since well...they employ a lot of people.
Or maybe the world isn't as black and white as that, and you shouldn't reach for extremes right away.

I'm saying companies like Volkswagen have a lot of people depending on them. That is something a government should take into account when making decisions.
 

chadskin

Member
That is how trade works. If one side is blocking something, you block something in return until they stop. I think Obama should ban German Auto imports until the EU finishes its GMO review process. After all, it is not like German cars have been meeting environmental regulations in the US.

Banning German auto imports would have a strong adverse effect on the US economy since there's an obvious demand for them (not to mention that, at least in Volkswagen's case, a majority of the cars sold in the US are made in Mexico, not Germany which poses the question - would you ban imports of all cars of German automakers, just the ones made in Germany and subsequently shipped to the US or the sale of all cars of German automakers, some of which are made in the US as well?).

For GMO foods, there's no real demand for them in the EU because their sale has largely been not allowed in the first place. The EU is perfectly self-sustainable without GMO foods, it doesn't stand to gain anything by allowing their sale or lose anything by forbidding their sale in the EU. Indeed, there's a good argument to be made that by allowing the sale of cheaper (US) GMO foods it would, sooner or later, drive non-GMO food out of the market. With the obvious consequences being heavy job losses in the agricultural sector as well as a drop in tax revenue due to the lower prices of GMO foods. If the EU were to allow a broader sale of GMO foods, it'd arguably need a long transitioning period. Signing the TTIP this year and then immediately opening the floodgates to the sale of GMO foods, which would primarily be driven by US imports, would have grave repercussions for the EU member states.

Germany is dealing with similar obesity levels to the US. Sorry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_Germany

Not accurate. Obesity, per WHO:
US: 33.7%
Germany: 20.1%
http://gamapserver.who.int/gho/interactive_charts/ncd/risk_factors/obesity/atlas.html
 
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