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Did Monkey Island fanbase (and franchise in general) just died off?

Boem

Member
I loved Tales. It's probably my favorite Telltale game. It sounded like they were going to do more but then Lucasarts imploded (again) and then it got sold to disney. At the time, Telltale couldn't wait so they moved on.

I had some friends working at Telltale at the time. They definitely wanted to do more, but the tricky Lucasarts situation and the fact that it didn't sell that much (it made sense to launch alongside the MI1 remake, but that sort of stole it's thunder sales-wise, or so I was told) meant they didn't. It's part of the reason why they started going after different kinds of franchises, starting with the Universal movies and later more recent franchises.

The ending of Tales already hinted at what they would do, and they told me one or two story details at the time. Nothing much, just the return of 1 or 2 of the original islands and Morgan returning.

While I would be fine with Telltale doing another season now (as long as they're willing to go back to a more classic Adventure style, which I doubt), I'm hoping the Double Fine remakes will pay off and they can gather more members of the original team to make a sequel. Tim Schafer, Dave Grossman and Ron Gilbert are all still close, so that wouldn't be a problem. As long as Sony keeps willing to invest in these things and Disney is willing to play ball, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happening in a couple of years. As of right now, Double Fine does feel like the 'right' studio for something like this, especially given that most of the old talent is there right now, or still works with them for a project or two.

I would actually be really pleased if they made a new version in the style of the new King's Quest. It's tonally a bit different of course, and the new games borrow a lot from Monkey Island and Telltale already, but it's what I was hoping Telltale would end up making when I was really into their Sam & Max and Monkey Island games. Very satisfying world to explore, modern yet true to how it was back then. Not to mention that they've heavily Guybrush't King Graham for the new game (the COMI-version specifically). That's assuming it won't be 2D of course. Would love that as well, but I'm not as attached to using 2D or retro-graphics in this genre as some people are. As long as it's done well I'm happy.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
People often say that Ron Gilbert was the biggest reason MI 1 and 2 are better than the sequels, but I don't agree with that. I mean, I agree that they're the best games in the series (especially 2, and not counting the remakes which killed the mood/comedy too much), but people forget that 99% of the writing (the main reason people love these games) was done by Dave Grossman and Tim Schafer. I would be fine with another Ron Gilbert Monkey Island, but I'd only be really enthusiastic if Grossman and Schafer would be involved again. They are what made Monkey Island funny in the first place. Looking at Ron Gilbert's later work, I'm still not convinced he's any good as a writer. Deathspank was horrible in that regard, for example, and Grossman and Schafer's later work shows that they can both still be hilarious. And, of course, I'd want people like Purcell, Land and McConnell back - the art and music are such huge part of these games and those teams were so insanely talented.

Don't get me wrong: Ron Gilbert is a great and smart game designer, and his work on the Scumm engine borders on brilliance. But he's not that funny as a writer, and people often ignore the work of others just because Gilbert's name was on the front of the box.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, great post!
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
I loved Tales. It's probably my favorite Telltale game. It sounded like they were going to do more but then Lucasarts imploded (again) and then it got sold to disney. At the time, Telltale couldn't wait so they moved on.

Old Telltale was the best, Sam & Max, Wallace and Gromit (fucking great it was) and Tales of Monkey Island. Now it's just "Illusion of choice game #232389232 License #23"
 

vio

Member
Not really fan of Telltales visual design, but game itself was good in my opinion. I kinda miss more Sam&Max. :/
 

Tunahead

Member
Old Telltale was the best, Sam & Max, Wallace and Gromit (fucking great it was) and Tales of Monkey Island. Now it's just "Illusion of choice game #232389232 License #23"

I never really got the impression that Old Telltale actually liked the classic point-and-click style of adventure, what with basically all obstacles in those games being whiny nasal characters who basically went "Uh-uh-uh! You didn't solve puzzle!"

Also, I hated Telltale Sam & Max with every fiber of my being. Sam & Max are basically anarchists who just saw Lethal Weapon as children and decided to do that without any training, or obedience of the law. And then they destroy much of North America and don't really mind because it wasn't boring. They're basically a pisstake of action protagonists. Meanwhile in the Telltale games they become chosen ones and save the world like literally every other video game protagonist ever, and I think Sam & Max was also where Telltale's whiny nasal obstacle NPC obsession hit critical mass. They were just everywhere and everyone.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Ron Gilbert's Monkey Island 3 is my new big "dream game" after Shenmue III got announced.

He's a few steps removed from the big buddy-buddy pow-wow of Double Fine, Sony, and Disney right now, but I think a deal can reasonably happen in the next five years.
 
I don't remember any of that. Can you elaborate?.

Big ToMI spoilers...

At the end of the trial in Chapter 4 it's revealed that the Voodoo Lady is actually behind everything, continually resurrecting LeChuck and setting Guybrush up against him for her own sick game of 'chess'... which actually explains a lot about the Voodoo Lady that didn't make sense before.

But then in Chapter 5 it's revealed that LeChuck is lying and he's the real villain.... again. Or at least maybe, because at the end, the Voodoo Lady is shown having power over life and death, and is possibly plotting something sinister with Morgan. Or maybe not, idk.
 
it doesnt matter if Gilbert decided he was done w the series or liked Curse. he is a creative person certainly some ideas sprang forth when making MI2. the fact is i don't think he would have done a re-tread of the MI2 story? the ending to MI2 is so insane and meta and twisty that to have it turn into a running theme seems like a massive disservice to the subversive nature of MI2. i really cant fault the writers for taking the ending literally but just from a writing perspective they should have come up with a new setting and a new ending than the same theme park and leChuck battle from the last game. this is how i think it betrays the MI2 spirit: MI2's ending was way out of left field, totally unexpected. why go back to that same place we already saw once? and were amazed at already? it seems like the original writers wouldn't do that bc they didn't.
 

Fady K

Member
The (excellent) remakes were recently made backwards compatible on Xbox One, and still occasionally go on sale on Steam.

That said, where the F is the Curse remake :(

This. We NEED a Curse remake or at least a new port!

Monkey Island will never die. The entire series is fantastic with 1&2 obviously being the high point.

Like anything with time the fansites close as the cost of running them isn't really justified when only 2-3 threads are made in a month and for a game like Monkey which is an old point and click adventure the fact it is still regarded so highly speaks volumes for how great of a game it was.

I know a lot of people want to see it revisited but personally I think it should be left alone, we need to start stepping away from this rehash/remake nonsense and start making great original games like Monkey Island was, the creativity these days from developers is severely lacking outside of the indie space.

Monkey Island is my favourite game series of all time and everything about it was just glorious, from the witty writing, the excellent design and the pirate theme, it was just perfect combination.

So whilst discussion of it may not be as apparent as it once was believe me when I say there are many fans still out there.

<3 <3 <3 #OneOfUs

I loved Tales. It's probably my favorite Telltale game. It sounded like they were going to do more but then Lucasarts imploded (again) and then it got sold to disney. At the time, Telltale couldn't wait so they moved on.

What hurts about Telltale today is they are mostly after big IPs - Minecraft, Game of Thrones, Marvel, Batman (WHICH I'M TOTALLY EXCITED FOR <3), The Walking Dead, etc.

I REALLY miss the older IPs they revisited - Bone, Monkey Island especially and Sam & Max. Hell, even Wallace & Gromit. I'd love more of this telltale. Their Monkey Island & Sam & Max games were a lot more interactive than their newer stuff.

Old Telltale was the best, Sam & Max, Wallace and Gromit (fucking great it was) and Tales of Monkey Island. Now it's just "Illusion of choice game #232389232 License #23"

While I love Telltale to this day and I'm excited for most of their upcoming stuff, I wholeheartedly agree. Their older games were incredible and had FAR MORE interactivity.

Not really fan of Telltales visual design, but game itself was good in my opinion. I kinda miss more Sam&Max. :/

We NEED more Sam and Max. The Devil's Playhouse was especially FANTASTIC.
 
Loved the characters and world while watching a PT for the first game (remastered). Bought MI2 (remastered) and I absolutely became a fan. Went to play 3, it was great. Escape i kind of skipped and watched a couple of videos on YT but Tales was the shit. TT Games did a great job with that one, is easily one of their best games along with Sam and Max S3, WD S1, Wolf and Borderlands.
I need more Monkey Island in my life.
 
Lots of terrible things happened to Monkey Island.

First, there was Escape from Monkey Island which almost singlehandedly killed the franchise.

Then there were the Tales games which were terribly meh and done in the Telltale formula which are not exactly classic point and click adventures.

Then they remastered the games with a pretty bad art style and somehow managed to make the UI worse.

As of today, the only thing the Monkey Island fanbase is interested in is Thimbleweed Park.
 
As of today, the only thing the Monkey Island fanbase is interested in is Thimbleweed Park.

Personally, I don't. Everything I've seen left a bad impression on me. "Hey, look, it's C64 bobblehead art style, just like in Maniac Mansion but worse! Oh, look again, we took a HUD straight out of CD version of Monkey 1, but we couldn't be fucked to draw items appropriately!" I want to believe in the genius of Ron Gilbert, but as for now, the game shapes out to be too referential and worse than some fan efforts.
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
The series is over for now, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm glad they're not exploiting the franchise as they probably easily could.

I'm also 100% sure there will be a new Monkey Island along the way, in a few years maybe, and it will hopefully be better than Tales.
 
Personally, I don't. Everything I've seen left a bad impression on me. "Hey, look, it's C64 bobblehead art style, just like in Maniac Mansion but worse! Oh, look again, we took a HUD straight out of CD version of Monkey 1, but we couldn't be fucked to draw items appropriately!" I want to believe in the genius of Ron Gilbert, but as for now, the game shapes out to be too referential and worse than some fan efforts.

I disagree with your views, but fair enough. It is what it is, and I love it for what it is..
 
Well first off thanks for making this topic. It's nice to see a topic not about Dark Souls on the front page.

Also, I am glad you mentioned Worldofmi. I have very nostalgic feelings for that site. I remember when I was a teenager, trying to buy stuff on ebay with my dad's credit card and not being able to make an account with my hotmail email address, because ebay wouldn't allow accounts made with free email addresses at the time. However, they didn't know that my thelongestj @ worldofmi.com email was a free one so I was able to make an account and buy a punch of classic adventure games with it. I remember spending over $40 to get the CD-ROM version of Loom with the Book of Spells so I would have physical copies of all the LucasArts adventure games. Well I don't have boxes for all of them, just Escape from Monkey Island and Grim Fandango, which were the most recent ones when I started collecting.

I am not getting the hate for Curse and Tales here. Curse of Monkey Island still looks gorgeous, plays amazing in ScummVM and absolutely does not need a remaster. All we need is a release on GOG. I still have the discs saved on my computer so it is not an issue for me. I really liked Tales too. I remember thinking that the 3rd episode in particular was really funny. Also I liked the Telltale Sam and Max games too. I really need to replay those. Especially in Season 1, Episode 4 when Sam and Max were in virtual reality. That episode was really funny too.

I can see why there are not that many fans of Escape, but I didn't think it was that bad. It had some funny moments too, although I haven't played it in over 10 years.

I still check out Mixnmojo from time to time. There's some really interesting archived stuff on the forums too.
 

Celine

Member
Tales problems were that the episodes quality was uneven (3,4 > 5 >> 2,1) and it suffered from the episodic format constraints.
Overall though, for what it is, it was a decent attempt.

But yeah there is no new game or initiative about MI in sight so it's not surprising the fanbase isn't more active.

As of today, the only thing the Monkey Island fanbase is interested in is Thimbleweed Park.
It looks interesting.
Let's cross fingers.
 

Turnbl

Member
Ron Gilbert appeared on Retronauts in August 2015 talking mainly development of the original two and a bit of Thimbleweed Park. It's really interesting if you're a fan - take a listen: Podcast on Soundcloud

Near the end around 55:45 you can hear some talk around the potential of a new game. In summary, Gilbert wants to buy the rights back, but Disney don't sell their IPs. If he could, it would be MI2 style with the verb interface etc. But it's just not viable. So stalemate. A shame, but at least we still have the originals!
 
People often say that Ron Gilbert was the biggest reason MI 1 and 2 are better than the sequels, but I don't agree with that. I mean, I agree that they're the best games in the series (especially 2, and not counting the remakes which killed the mood/comedy too much), but people forget that 99% of the writing (the main reason people love these games) was done by Dave Grossman and Tim Schafer. I would be fine with another Ron Gilbert Monkey Island, but I'd only be really enthusiastic if Grossman and Schafer would be involved again. They are what made Monkey Island funny in the first place. Looking at Ron Gilbert's later work, I'm still not convinced he's any good as a writer. Deathspank was horrible in that regard, for example, and Grossman and Schafer's later work shows that they can both still be hilarious. And, of course, I'd want people like Purcell, Land and McConnell back - the art and music are such huge part of these games and those teams were so insanely talented.

Don't get me wrong: Ron Gilbert is a great and smart game designer, and his work on the Scumm engine borders on brilliance. But he's not that funny as a writer, and people often ignore the work of others just because Gilbert's name was on the front of the box.

Disagree with you on his writing, it's pretty clear from their individual work that Ron probably did a good chunk of the deadpan/black comedy in the MI games, which was my favourite part of the games, and the main reason I hold them well above MI3/4/Tales. It's not really evident in either of their individual work (including tales!), while it is in his.

I love both Schafer & Grossman's writing too - DOTT is one of my favourite games ever - and Schafer is definitely a better writer (not sure on Grossman because I've never seen him do entirely solo work) but if I could only pick one for the themes I love most about MI it'd definitely by Gilbert. Obviously all three would be best, the game would certainly be lacking without them. I'd love to see Mark Ferrari doing BG work too, some of his stuff on Thimbleweed has been really evocative of his work back on Monkey Island.

Personally, I don't. Everything I've seen left a bad impression on me. "Hey, look, it's C64 bobblehead art style, just like in Maniac Mansion but worse! Oh, look again, we took a HUD straight out of CD version of Monkey 1, but we couldn't be fucked to draw items appropriately!" I want to believe in the genius of Ron Gilbert, but as for now, the game shapes out to be too referential and worse than some fan efforts.

Well, the PAX impressions were highly positive. I'm not a fan of the big heads either though.

I am not getting the hate for Curse and Tales here. Curse of Monkey Island still looks gorgeous, plays amazing in ScummVM and absolutely does not need a remaster. All we need is a release on GOG. I still have the discs saved on my computer so it is not an issue for me. I really liked Tales too. I remember thinking that the 3rd episode in particular was really funny. Also I liked the Telltale Sam and Max games too. I really need to replay those. Especially in Season 1, Episode 4 when Sam and Max were in virtual reality. That episode was really funny too.

I think with Curse, there are two issues:

1) The tone - it's generally far lighter then its predecessors. Dominic Armato adds to this with his portrayal of Guybrush (which really didn't work in the MI:SE's since it didn't fit the tone at all). This isn't actually a negative per se. I just don't treat Curse as a MI game and I'm happy. I think some people who don't like curse aren't able to make this seperation and their resentment ends up clouding their view of the game, which is really very good

2) The Verb coin. This *is* a negative for me (as it also was in full throttle). By the FATE/DOTT era, I feel lucasarts had gotten the gui perfect - 9 verbs, with on-hover descriptions making "what is" unnecessary and "use" having always made turn on/off a bit useless. "Walk to" was truly unnecessary for anyone using a mouse.

But I never supported going from 9 to 3 or less. For example, "giving" someone an item should always be a separate process then "Using" an item on someone. The less verb possibilities you have, the less you can specifically describe how you want to act on your environment, and the simpler a lot of the puzzles become. It's become even worse recently with many games just having "look" and an all-purpose "use" command.

With Tales, the first act was mediocre and the second was flat out terrible. The third & fourth were a lot better, but I suspect a lot of the damage was done at that point. And at their best with part three, they were still not as good as 1/2/Curse, and they never really got the tone right, even in the underworld.
 

petran79

Banned
They're not dead, they're just on hiatus like most older adventure games fans.

Monkey Island games became way too many for the franchise's potential. It should have stopped at 2. 3 was fine but I could see that had they chosen to continue the franchise further, things would go down the drain, like it happened with MI4. At least Gabriel Knight 3 was better in the 3D transition, even though there were a lot of criticisms as well.

Other adventure games stopped when they had to and they became classics. Hence why Maniac Mansion and DOTT still retain their classic status. Zak McKraken as well
They are not Indiana Jones to be able to spawn countless sequels.
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
2) The Verb coin. This *is* a negative for me (as it also was in full throttle). By the FATE/DOTT era, I feel lucasarts had gotten the gui perfect - 9 verbs, with on-hover descriptions making "what is" unnecessary and "use" having always made turn on/off a bit useless. "Walk to" was truly unnecessary for anyone using a mouse.

But I never supported going from 9 to 3 or less. For example, "giving" someone an item should always be a separate process then "Using" an item on someone. The less verb possibilities you have, the less you can specifically describe how you want to act on your environment, and the simpler a lot of the puzzles become. It's become even worse recently with many games just having "look" and an all-purpose "use" command.

I don't know if I agree with this. Right now I'm playing Flight of the Amazon Queen. The game has 8 verbs (open, close, move, give, look, pick up, talk and use) and while I'm not that far in the game yet, I find some of those verbs too specific. I've used the "open" verb maybe once or twice, "move" just once, and I don't remember ever using the "close" verb. It's probably the matter of implementation and use in puzzles, but having verbs that you will be using just a couple of times through the whole game is a bit excess.

However, I agree with you that the current trend in games of having just look and everything-else is a bad trend. After clicking on a character you have no idea what will really happen, whether you start to talk with said character or punch him in the face. And in the end you just click on every interactable object not really knowing what will be the result of the interaction.

At least Gabriel Knight 3 was better in the 3D transition, even though there were a lot of criticisms as well.

Man, I would kill for a proper Gabriel Knight 3 remake. Even though the game was a technical mess on release, and after pixelated beauty of GK1 and FMV realism of GK2 the simple 3D characters were simply ugly, I love how you could get a 3D virtual tour (with the free camera and all) through Rennes-le-Château and its neighborhood.
 
I don't know if I agree with this. Right now I'm playing Flight of the Amazon Queen. The game has 8 verbs (open, close, move, give, look, pick up, talk and use) and while I'm not that far in the game yet, I find some of those verbs too specific. I've used the "open" verb maybe once or twice, "move" just once, and I don't remember ever using the "close" verb. It's probably the matter of implementation and use in puzzles, but having verbs that you will be using just a couple of times through the whole game is a bit excess.

However, I agree with you that the current trend in games of having just look and everything-else is a bad trend. After clicking on a character you have no idea what will really happen, whether you start to talk with said character or punch him in the face. And in the end you just click on every interactable object not really knowing what will be the result of the interaction.

Yeah, you have to have verbs useful to what you're doing.
 
Personally, I don't. Everything I've seen left a bad impression on me. "Hey, look, it's C64 bobblehead art style, just like in Maniac Mansion but worse! Oh, look again, we took a HUD straight out of CD version of Monkey 1, but we couldn't be fucked to draw items appropriately!" I want to believe in the genius of Ron Gilbert, but as for now, the game shapes out to be too referential and worse than some fan efforts.

The big heads are Gary Winnick's art style, but the heads were also made bigger so that you could see each characters faces in Gary's style more clearly.
 

Celine

Member
The tonal shift is interesting. Monkey 2 is my favorite, followed by 1, and then there's quite some distance to the others (although I still like Curse and appreciate Tales). Mostly because of, indeed, the atmosphere, and the fact that they feel like tighter packages.

But I also always was fine with the tonal shift - Curse sets a completely different tone for itself but does it well. Taken as it's own thing it totally works. Escape goes too far in that direction and ends up as a lamer version of a Sam & Max game (which isn't helped by the poor early 3D and the unnecessary 'retcons' of Monkey Island lore, as if the 'lore' was ever important in these games). I always disliked it, but going back to it after Tales softened me on it a bit. It doesn't hurt as bad now that it's not the finale, and it does have some great jokes and puzzles (probably better than the ones in Curse, except for the Monkey Kombat part of course). It's just that the rest of it doesn't work.

Tales is another weird mix, where they tried to go back to the style of Curse mixed in with a bit of Revenge, and even some Escape sneaking in here and there, all mixed with the usual Telltale house style.

Even as a kid (and I wasn't a kid anymore when Tales came out of course) the different art styles and tones just felt like a part of the series, and a part of the charm. You never knew what you were going to get when you started a new one - how all the regular characters would look, what the mood would be like, etc. I actually think there's quite a change between 1 and 2 as well, but people often don't agree with me on that one.
My own view on the series is similar to yours, except on Escape cause it's the only MI I've never played.
Wonder if I should give it a go...
It's not like we will get other MI in the near future.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
2) The Verb coin. This *is* a negative for me (as it also was in full throttle). By the FATE/DOTT era, I feel lucasarts had gotten the gui perfect - 9 verbs, with on-hover descriptions making "what is" unnecessary and "use" having always made turn on/off a bit useless. "Walk to" was truly unnecessary for anyone using a mouse.

But I never supported going from 9 to 3 or less. For example, "giving" someone an item should always be a separate process then "Using" an item on someone. The less verb possibilities you have, the less you can specifically describe how you want to act on your environment, and the simpler a lot of the puzzles become. It's become even worse recently with many games just having "look" and an all-purpose "use" command.

I'm not so sure the 9-verb system is really as good of a design as some of us remember it to be. Out of interest, I fired up Secret of Monkey Island and picked a random item to interact with; the poster of Elaine on the docks. Here's the results of my interactions:

GIVE - There's no-one here to give it to.
OPEN - Can't.
CLOSE - Can't.
PICK UP - Can't.
LOOK AT - Description of the object.
TALK TO - Won't even let me select the poster.
USE - Can't.
PUSH - Can't.
PULL - Can't.

Like, does this really add anything valuable to the game? Even the things that would seem to make sense, like pulling the poster off the wall or picking it up don't work. Pretty much every option in this case amounts to busy-work with no payoff. Picking another random object, this time the Bar and Grill sign in Monkey 2 has almost the exact same result.

In other words, yes the 9-verb system adds options, but in almost every case the bulk of those options are going to be dead-ends. For me, the verb coin interface shifts the focus away from "These are the things you can do, please select one" to "Work out an idea in your head, pick the most appropriate icon and we'll tell you if you've got it right.
 

KyleCross

Member
People hate Tales? That's the only Telltale Game that I think is good (I haven't played The Wolf Among Us or Borderlands yet tho, I have a feeling those are gonna be good).
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
People hate Tales? That's the only Telltale Game that I think is good (I haven't played The Wolf Among Us or Borderlands yet tho, I have a feeling those are gonna be good).

The first episode was really meh with the maze puzzle repeated like two or three times, and just two types of models for non-important NPCs (short and fat, and tall and thin). The second episode was downright bad. Only with the third episode did the game finally pick up and started being really good.
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
In other words, yes the 9-verb system adds options, but in almost every case the bulk of those options are going to be dead-ends. For me, the verb coin interface shifts the focus away from "These are the things you can do, please select one" to "Work out an idea in your head, pick the most appropriate icon and we'll tell you if you've got it right.

I liked the way Larry 7 did this. Clicking on an item/person you get a list of options that you could do with the item or person. There were few verbs that were present all the time (e.g. "look"), but there were also options that were exclusive for certain items (e.g. "bent", "throw"). That way you weren't limited to cover-it-all verb "use", and you know that each available option gave you some kind of result (even if it was a simple joke comment from Larry or the narrator) instead of the default "I can't do this".
 

PaulloDEC

Member
I liked the way Larry 7 did this. Clicking on an item/person you get a list of options that you could do with the item or person. There were few verbs that were present all the time (e.g. "look"), but there were also options that were exclusive for certain items (e.g. "bent", "throw"). That way you weren't limited to cover-it-all verb "use", and you know that each available option gave you some kind of result (even if it was a simple joke comment from Larry or the narrator) instead of the default "I can't do this".

See, that sounds like a much better solution to me. People complain about context-sensitive solutions, but they're a lot more intuitive when done well.
 
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