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The "bad ending" needs to die

Flipyap

Member
I don't like bad endings unless they are thematically consistent with the game(Do you really expect silent hill 2 to end well?)
Yeah, getting a good ending in Silent Hill 2 made me feel cheated (the Leave ending, which felt undeserved and disturbingly tone-deaf).

I like how souls does it where every ending feels satisfying, and the other ones are worth going through ng+ to get.
That's some impressively dry humor. Like, whoa, you should put some moisturizer on that shit.
Bloodborne's endings are the only ones that came anywhere close to satisfying and those don't even have a haiku's worth of material in them. They tend to have interesting implications, but they're so simple, they sometimes don't even warrant that 5 second cutscene.
 

Narroo

Member
Locking your good endings behind convoluted methods doesn't mean your endings are hard, just bullshit.

Like Valkirye Profile, where I got the best ending after purposefuly attempting to get a bad one.

I was just thinking, after my post, that the only way a person could naturally get the good ending is if they tried to "screw up" the game as much as possible on their first playthrough, while still seeing all the cutscenes and what not.

God knows you're not doing it on the 2nd playthough since you're going to skip stuff. (Assuming you want to replay the entire game!)
 

Lindsay

Dot Hacked
I can understand the pain. Put alil over 18 hours into Atelier Rorona+ earlier this year, trying my hardest to accomplish all tasks within the deadlines each period of the game only to be slapped down hard with the bad ending anyway. Still would not wanna banish 'em from being put into new games. Cause when bad endings aren't dumbly done they can often be great!

In Rev2, being too good at the QTE gives you the bad ending. You only see the QTE (that gives the good ending) if you have slow reflexes.
lol what the heck? Usually being good at a game gives you a good ending! This is so bad it's funny!
 

ghostjoke

Banned
Sounds more like an issue with quality of the "bad" ending than there being one. The issue you bring up could be the cause of why "bad" endings have a habit of being bad, because people want the sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows ending and devs put more effort into making them feel satisfying. There is definitely some convoluted crap out there to get the "perfect" endings in some games, which can be tedious to do and you're better off just heading over to youtube, though I will say that there was something rewarding about getting the 100% in FFX-2 - felt like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day when I manipulated everything for the best outcome, but probably not worth the 200 hours investment. Undertale did a better job and only required two playthroughs. Need more Silent Hill 2 style where all endings are in play and are based off your collective actions and not a series of heavily directed routes.
 

Capitan

Member
I think it can work well sometimes. I only really feel cheated if there's stuff you have to do that's essentially impossible to know without looking it up. From what you're saying it does kind of sound like revelations 2 has that.
 

mdubs

Banned
Multiple endings are garbage in non choose your own adventure type games. see Persona 4. That was terrible.
 

ghostjoke

Banned
Multiple endings are garbage in non choose your own adventure type games. see Persona 4. That was terrible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a series of options near the end that you can easily go back and redo without much hassle? I can't imagine anyone thinking that was the real ending of the game and not going back to try for the true ending. It's not good, but it's not a suckerpunch at the ending of a massive journey, just an alternate ending.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Silent Hill and Silent Hill 2 wouldn't be the same without their alleged "bad" endings. SH2 moreso.

"In Water" remains one of my favorite video game endings

you know another great "bad" one? Suikoden II

Multiple endings are garbage in non choose your own adventure type games. see Persona 4. That was terrible.

nah, you got an ending - it wasn't the complete one, cause you didn't earn it
as we said here, that was actually fitting too
 
Im fine with bad endings as long as it makes sense given whats happened thus far in the game. 10/10 though it just comes out and blind sides you and youre wondering what the hell is even going on.
Yeah I get that. Dead Rising did its multiple endings well IMO. You have to try to get the bad endings though. You generally get normal playing it casually.
Super Paper Mario does not really have endings, but you can get Game Over saying the wrong choice over and over. Small touches like that is great!
 

McLovin

Member
I like having consequences to my actions in games. As long as they make it easy to get the right one it's not a big deal imo.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a series of options near the end that you can easily go back and redo without much hassle? I can't imagine anyone thinking that was the real ending of the game and not going back to try for the true ending. It's not good, but it's not a suckerpunch at the ending of a massive journey, just an alternate ending.
"Make sure you create a backup save before the last dungeon, then again before the final boss" isn't something you're taught in the tutorials, nor does it make any sense in modern gaming. For someone who might not know that sort of JRPG strangeness already it could seem odd. I mean, it's a holdover from games two decades ago. I wouldn't have it any other way. Though, playing Valkyria recently, I forgot how awesome it was that they left all the battles open during a NG+ so you could repeat them (and any cutscene) if you wanted to. More games need that.

On something vaguely recent, Neptuina V-II committed the sin the OP is talking about, though. I had to research after a full play to the bad ending how to actually get the true because I'd done every optional thing imaginable and gone through what looked like a bunch of standard flags. Turns out it's linked to one specific sidequest about a third into the game that takes a non-automatic trigger to even access. That is just not fair. There's no need to make it that complicated. Especially after the characters taunted me in the bad end for getting the bad end.
 

vulva

Member
It's not the same experience.

What if you were watching a movie in the theatre, then it stopped 5 minutes before the ending and the filmmakers popped up and said "this isn't a good ending, we filmed a good one though. Just go home and fucking watch it on Youtube."

Games are games, Youtube is not a game.

Never heard of the movie Clue?
 
What would be the point of giving players a choice if it could never go badly?

People complain when games end and reveal your choices didn't matter, but if a game actually has real consequences for your decisions OP wants to be upset about it?

This.

I will always appreciate a 60 dollar game giving me a different experience/conclusion each time I replay a game.

Chrono Trigger, is still the best RPG, because of the different and unique endings it gives you. Not only because of the number[15], but the endings work in context of the game (defeating the main villain in different times/moments in the story)
 
I think bad endings (regardless of if they're explicitly called "bad" or are called the "normal" end but are severely anticlimactic or otherwise unsatisfying) are fine as long as either:

A) Going back and fixing things to get a decent ending is easy/quick enough (be it because you can straight-up rewind or because you can new game +/fast-forward back to the decision point)

B) You have to either deliberately fuck it up or be completely fucking clueless to get the bad ending

Persona 4 does this decently well in that it pretty much tells you to make a second save in case you fuck it up before you get to any ending-determining decisions. Atelier games with time limits have bad ends if you fail to meet any victory condition, but you have to severely fail at time management to not get the baseline win condition. Most visual novels are fine here because they let you fast-forward through parts you've already read, so even if they are a "you have to do this random decision right in chapter 1 or you're locked out of the good end" deal it's pretty easy to re-play and get another ending. Ar Tonelico Qoga gets bonus points for its NG+ feature that lets you choose if you want to start at the beginning or right before its two major ending-determining branch points.

But yeah, plenty of games do fuck it up- I liked Omega Quintet up until the end where it went "HAHA FUCK YOU START OVER AND GRIND LIKE HELL IF YOU WANT TO SEE AN ENDING THAT ISN'T GARBAGE."


"Make sure you create a backup save before the last dungeon, then again before the final boss" isn't something you're taught in the tutorials, nor does it make any sense in modern gaming. For someone who might not know that sort of JRPG strangeness already it could seem odd. I mean, it's a holdover from games two decades ago. I wouldn't have it any other way. Though, playing Valkyria recently, I forgot how awesome it was that they left all the battles open during a NG+ so you could repeat them (and any cutscene) if you wanted to. More games need that.
Pretty sure P4 just about outright tells you to make a separate save before shit starts getting real. It's been a while, though, so maybe that bit was more vague about it than I remember.
On something vaguely recent, Neptuina V-II committed the sin the OP is talking about, though. I had to research after a full play to the bad ending how to actually get the true because I'd done every optional thing imaginable and gone through what looked like a bunch of standard flags. Turns out it's linked to one specific sidequest about a third into the game that takes a non-automatic trigger to even access. That is just not fair. There's no need to make it that complicated. Especially after the characters taunted me in the bad end for getting the bad end.
Eh, I'd say V-II doesn't count here because the "normal" end, while tragic, is satisfying enough. It's something that would make sense as a canon ending, which is how I'd differentiate a "bad" ending from a good/normal one. If the actual bad end (which you avoid by simply making sure you see four events right before a late-game scene) was that tier of Guide Dang It then it would be horseshit, yeah.

Also V-II has a pretty good/quick NG+, so replaying to get the true end isn't all that painful.
 

ghostjoke

Banned
"Make sure you create a backup save before the last dungeon, then again before the final boss" isn't something you're taught in the tutorials, nor does it make any sense in modern gaming. For someone who might not know that sort of JRPG strangeness already it could seem odd. I mean, it's a holdover from games two decades ago. I wouldn't have it any other way. Though, playing Valkyria recently, I forgot how awesome it was that they left all the battles open during a NG+ so you could repeat them (and any cutscene) if you wanted to. More games need that.

On something vaguely recent, Neptuina V-II committed the sin the OP is talking about, though. I had to research after a full play to the bad ending how to actually get the true because I'd done every optional thing imaginable and gone through what looked like a bunch of standard flags. Turns out it's linked to one specific sidequest about a third into the game that takes a non-automatic trigger to even access. That is just not fair. There's no need to make it that complicated. Especially after the characters taunted me in the bad end for getting the bad end.

Was there a save point after that scene in Persona 4? I recall just a series of cutscenes + time jump before going back to main menu. Then again, I always rotates saves since space became a non-issue and might have been fortunate because of it. I'm well aware this does happen (looking at you Final Fantasy VIII), just don't recall Persona 4 handling it poorly.

I haven't played Neptunia V-II, so can't comment on the quality of the ending you got - sounds rough though - but I too have developed the habit of doing every sidequests I can find before the end game these days. Sometimes you can still get a weird ending that doesn't feel right for what you went through. I do like how in Witcher 3 you get whacked over the head about hitting a point of no return and might want to turn back to do stuff; immersion breaking as it is, it's preferable in huge games.
 

Levyne

Banned
While I don't think multiple endings need to die, I do find myself rolling my eyes whenever a game has "true" or "perfect" ending. No matter how obvious or scripted or "natural" whatever it is, it often feels more like an awkwardly game-y fabrication then something that progresses from the narrative leading up to it. That may not be rational but having some sort of "canon" ending that's contingent on some number of certain outcomes or whatever just screams THIS IS A VIDEO GAME in a way that makes me think of checklists and victory conditions more than anything else.

Not to say I wouldn't go for "True" endings because usually they give you the most content out of the game in terms of battles or maps or whatever, but knowing I have to avoid the less-good outcomes I find more a chore than anything truly exciting.

I do like games with multiple endings based on quest outcomes or whatever. This is probably not a popular opinion when games like Persona 4 and Witcher 3 have "best" endings that people shoot for.
 

Keihart

Member
You don't NEED to get the best ending, be happy with the ending you get and if you aren't, play it again, that is kinda the point i would guess.

One of the many great things about the witcher 3 i would say, you never know exactly wich desicions have what consecuences.
 

Arklite

Member
No, I'd rather bad endings continue than not. In the context of Revelations 2 being a very low budget, short, truncated and episodic action game, the addition of little challenges or outcomes adds replayability with limited drawbacks. Also in the specific case of Rev 2, I can't say spotting the 'good' end first time isn't satisfying in itself.

You can also compare 'good' and 'bad' ends from something like REmake, which are completely devoid of any feeling. It's possible to leave the mansion with no other survivors, no final battle, and no destruction of the labs but the ending itself doesn't feel 'wrong' if you've never seen the others. I wouldn't prefer apathetic bad ends as they do nothing, but perhaps others would just for variety without consequence.
 
I just remembered Jamestown, where you aren't even allowed to play the last two levels if you're on 'medium' or lower difficulty.

It is a bullet hell shooter so I can kind of see where the devs were going with this, but I still didn't like that decision very much because of how short the game already is without locking away any semblance of closure to the story behind the hardest difficulties.

It's a brilliant game but damn they really expect godlike perfection for a meager reward. Again, the narrative isn't the game's selling point but dang, it stings.

I was thinking more what Konami used to do, like in Contra III or Castelvania 64, where that last stretch was only available if you played in Normal or Hard.

But having some extra level or section behind the hardest difficulty? I have no problem with that, same with conditioning to full completion, like in Demon's Crest or Legend of Gaia.
 
This is the only gameplay mechanic about which I could actually tell people who complain that it's too punishing to "git gud", so I am against it dying.
 

Ullus

Member
I love it, it's just one big ''You fucked up'' sign, gets me excited to play it again and aim for the good ending.
 
Bad endings that are like "lmao and now you died", like some sort of fucked up VN where you didn't make the "right" choices are annoying, but ones that actually take decisions you make into consideration and generally don't suck are cool with me. I have mixed feelings about Persona 4's multiple endings, but mostly that I would rather P5 follow P3 as inspiration for ending branches.

At some point though..Generally after 3 endings, it's just a grind over and over to make you feel like the game has replay value it otherwise might now.
 
Most of the time it is a poorly thought out idea that a lot of games don't do anything with. I do appreciate the games that do them right. Fallout New Vegas and Witcher 3 achieve a sense of consequence with theirs, while games like Undertale and Nier use them to great effect in telling their stories.
 
I got the "good" ending to Witcher 3 and it left me 100% satisfied. It lined up with the choices I had made and how I felt about these characters after 100+ hours.
The "perfect" ending just doesn't gel with how I saw that world and the situations.

Persona should be a series just like that, where it doesn't matter what ending you get...you should feel satisfied....but the true endings are always better, but aren't based on what any normal person would do thought a run though without a social link guide.

I do agree that Rev2's proper ending was so obscure though, what it asked yout to do to get it was in no way clear and I refuse to believe anyone got it without a guide or just plain fluke. You had to do the opposite of what that character had been doing for the last 80% of the game.
 
Sadly, not all endings in games are sunshine & rainbows.

Heck, there are certain bad endings of games that turn out to be the real endings as a whole.

Games like "Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest," "Shining Hearts 1" & "The Witch & the Hundred Knight" are examples.
 
I mean seriously who thinks these are a good idea? I just beat Revelations 2 and got the bad ending. How the hell am I supposed to know I'm supposed to do something in chapter 3 to get a "good ending?"

I'm not sitting here reading what to do with an FAQ every step of the way as that kills the enjoyment of the game. As a result, the ending I get is weak and unsatisfying, and I have to look up the real ending on youtube. I shouldn't have to do that. I feel happy and relieved beating a end boss and it should give me the payoff in game damn it.

What does this add to a game experience other than serving no other purpose than to make it worse? I mean it's right there in the name of it, "BAD ending." As in, making the game worse. RER 2 isn't the only offender either just the most recent to piss me off.

I got the bad ending in Witcher 3 and it depressed the shit out of me. It is called the bad ending because you're cheated out of explanations during the final monologue, and because it ends in such a grim way. Like it is incredible heartbreaking.


BUT. But as disappointing as it was, it also means that I have to go back and play the game again and that is what I am going to do when Blood and Wine comes out. And you know what- FUCK THAT. I'm gonna play witcher 1 (never finished it) and witcher 2 (gonna try the other path) and then do the entire witcher 3 again.


So in a way I am going to get a lot more out of the witcher because endings are not equal. The entire point of the thing is that you don't know what your consequences lead to. You cannot approach anything in life like this.

If the writing made you unsure would what would happen, then the story did a good job at not being predictable. That sure as fuck is a lot better than what you can say about a lot of stories being told today.
 
I got the bad ending in Witcher 3 and it depressed the shit out of me. It is called the bad ending because you're cheated out of explanations during the final monologue, and because it ends in such a grim way. Like it is incredible heartbreaking.


BUT. But as disappointing as it was, it also means that I have to go back and play the game again and that is what I am going to do when Blood and Wine comes out. And you know what- FUCK THAT. I'm gonna play witcher 1 (never finished it) and witcher 2 (gonna try the other path) and then do the entire witcher 3 again.


So in a way I am going to get a lot more out of the witcher because endings are not equal. The entire point of the thing is that you don't know what your consequences lead to. You cannot approach anything in life like this.

If the writing made you unsure would what would happen, then the story did a good job at not being predictable. That sure as fuck is a lot better than what you can say about a lot of stories being told today.


See the bolded is exactly what I meant by "bad ending." Maybe I should have said the inferior alternate ending. And the rest of your post is why it needs to die. I will not replay a game to get a different ending. Let that be because I enjoyed the game enough to do so, not because I felt cheated by a shitty ending.
 

Eusis

Member
Me thinks OP would just love Drakengard 1. That game gives you the best ending straight out and gives you worse and worse endings for even thinking you can get a better one.
Incidentally this ties into how I prefer the bad endings to give something meaty and interesting, rather than just being lame incomplete endings or whatever. And preferably if they ARE like that they're easy to work around or not ones that require replaying a whole game, I.E. Castlevania bad endings where it's more like "go back and do this or that before you can get the real end game entirely."
 

Ogawa-san

Member
I'm with you OP, but people seem to like their freedom to (sometimes arbitrarily) fail.

Remember ME2's ending and how you could easily send your entire crew to their deaths at the last mission? That's good. /s

The best bad endings are the ones that make you want to go back and replay the game to get the good endings.
Really? Because going through 20~40h to get the worst ending just makes me youtube the rest to make sure I won't waste another 20h by picking the wrong choices again. Playing with a guide in tow is rarely if ever fun.
 
I'm with you OP, but people seem to like their freedom to (sometimes arbitrarily) fail.

Remember ME2's ending and how you could easily send your entire crew to their deaths at the last mission? That's good. /s


Really? Because going through 20~40h to get the worst ending just makes me youtube the rest to make sure I won't waste another 20h by picking the wrong choices again. Playing with a guide in tow is rarely if ever fun.


Exactly. And it has nothing to do with "git good" and often more to do with sink however many hours in tedium, get lucky, use a faq or hear about it before hand.

It's like buying a movie and getting one ending the first time you watch it, but if you watch it 5 times you can see the true ending!

Plenty of people complain about an inferior ending to a game so don't tell me it doesn't affect enjoyment. Call it entitlement all you want but thats like me laughing at you for being upset that you thought batman vs superman had a shitty story and stop being so entitled for expecting it to be good.

Just go YouTube the story you want it to be.

It's so ridiculous to call that entitled. I guess we should all stop feeling entitled to good games and good stories for our money. Let's just buy shit instead and be happy with it.

It doesn't matter to me if your experience with the game is great if mine is shit because I have an inferior ending. See the problem?
 

ryseing

Member
Dishonored is the most egregious example of this. The game encourages you to play lethal but you are actually punished for that. Never mind that all of the fun tools/powers in the game are lethal and you're playing as a fucking ASSASSIN.

Stupid as hell and just one more example of why bad endings need to die.
 
p5V7LRN.png


The bad/good/true ending distinction is generally a glorious thing, especially for certain genres of games. Though it's preferable if the criteria are intuitive and/or it's easy to replay the game to see the alternatives.
 

EGM1966

Member
So long as it fits the title and the mechanics make sense they're fine.

I'd agree too many games employ "dumb" mechanics to determine the outcome but the basic idea is fine.

Silent Hill 2 does this better than any game I've played this far and it worked superbly well.

Games like Second Son and Witcher can be head scratching in the disconnected way you arrive at the bad ending which is a failing in design and execution but not the core concept.
 
I don't dislike multiple endings as long as it's clear what the requirements are to trigger a specific ending.

DS3 is very bad at this.
Getting the
'Usurpation of Fire'
ending, you need to do a series of events:

Find Yoel of Londor near the Foot of the High Wall bonfire. Recruit him and talk to him at the Firelink.
Request his "strength" by allowing him to level you up. Do this all five times. One level per two deaths. Must be done before killing the Abyss Watchers. Doing this will cause the door to the catacombs to open, and upon entering kills off Yoel. This will cause a premature ending to the questline. Also NEVER cure your Hollowing, by talking with Firekeeper after obtaining Soul of the Firekeeper. Purging stone and Velka Statue are OK. You should receive 5 dark sigils from him. Note: You can "cure" your hollowing via Purging Stone. This gives you your human appearance whilst keeping your dark sigils. This doesn't impact this path. So long as you DO NOT cure the dark sigil via Firekeeper.
Find Anri of Astora at the Halfway Fortress bonfire. Exhaust all dialogue.
Speak to them again at the Firelink Shrine after killing the Deacons of the Deep.
Find Anri in the Catacombs of Carthus in a hallway next to the first rolling skeleton ball. Exhaust all dialogue.
Choose dialogue option "no"
Never tell Anri of Horace's whereabouts.
Enter the Smouldering Lake and kill Horace in the cave.
To find the cave, hug the right wall when entering the lake.
Find Anri on the path near the wooden bridge before the High Lord Wolnir boss. Exhaust all dialogue.
Choose dialogue option "say nothing"
Find Anri at the Church of Yorksha fire. Exhaust all dialogue. DO NOT kill the pilgrim/assassin in the corner of the room disguised as a statue. (NOTE: I found that even after Anri leaves, that pilgrim/assassin is still there disguised as one of the statues. Don't attack anything in that area until you have progressed past number 8 (wedding)).
After killing Pontiff Sulyvahn, speak to Yuria at the Firelink Shrine. Exhaust all dialogue options using talk.
If done correctly she will tell you your spouse awaits you at the Temple of the Darkmoon. (If she won't mention the wedding, try warping to the pontiff's bonfire and using that to warp back to Firelink Shrine).
Perform the "wedding" ceremony in the Darkmoon tomb. The tomb is located behind a false statue in the room before the rotating tower to Anor Londo.
Talk to the Pilgrim NPC and accept the sword. Use the sword on your spouse and receive 3 dark sigils. You should have 8 Dark Sigils by now.
After talk to Yuria one last time at the Firelink Shrine, She will congratulate you on your ceremony and tell you to link the fire. (She will tell you to link the fire if you've put all four remains of Lords of Cinder and unlocked the final area even if you haven't performed the wedding rites with Anri; this does not mean you can skip the wedding rites).
Kill the Soul of Cinder and touch the fire. Enjoy.
BONUS: Go where Yuria stood to collect her gear (Black set and Darkdrift). (Only if you summoned her for the final boss).

Can a normal person even find out how to trigger this ending on his own?
Seems so obscure.
 

LarsdeWildt

Neo Member
I thought the first Infamous had a really clever way of going about endings, assuming most players jumped into the game wanting to fuck things up.

Playing 'evil' was kind of encouraged by the game's story and affordances: the whole city was free-for-all, people were shunning you and crowds were stupid and panicked.

Obviously the bad ending showed that that might not have been the right way to react, and the way the ending played out (
as this kind of cyclical time loop with you becoming the villain
) it made sense to re-play as good.

I almost pity those that started out playing a good character, because they missed one of the writing's greatest merits.
 

Arklite

Member
I'm with you OP, but people seem to like their freedom to (sometimes arbitrarily) fail.

Remember ME2's ending and how you could easily send your entire crew to their deaths at the last mission? That's good. /s

A game tasking you to handle its ending like that was fantastic, adding more weight to your actions and preparations rather than making them inconsequential. Maybe there's some bad examples out there, but ME2 is a better example of player agency and consequence.

Can a normal person even find out how to trigger this ending on his own?
Seems so obscure.

Souls games are designed to be obscure, they're supposed to encourage community findings.
 

LarsdeWildt

Neo Member
I don't dislike multiple endings as long as it's clear what the requirements are to trigger a specific ending.

[...]

Can a normal person even find out how to trigger this ending on his own?
Seems so obscure.

I think this is why the DS series is sometimes called a 'post-twitter' game, because it already assumes a lot of people will communicate about and around the game (in forums, within the game). That encourages 'false information' by players to mislead each other (because it is now part of the game) as well as encouraging the developers to make stuff super-obscure and hard to do, because if even 1 person finds it out, everyone on the internet will know about it soon enough.
 

cireza

Member
Having several endings is fine, as long as you don't have to do impossible things, that you normally would never guess, to reach the endings.

Otherwise, I love having various endings. In Steins Gate, the different endings were fantastic.
 

Ogawa-san

Member
A game tasking you to handle its ending like that was fantastic, adding more weight to your actions and preparations rather than making them inconsequential. Maybe there's some bad examples out there, but ME2 is a better example of player agency and consequence.
If it made sense, maybe.

Garrus look pretty sneaky, Legion looks pretty sturdy, Jack looks pretty aggressive. I should probably send them to the vent/shield/fire squad respectively.

Nope, wrong. They're all dead, bad ending for you.
 
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