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Javier · May 27, 2016

As someone who plays lots of visual novels, I love bad endings. I do agree though that endings shouldn't have bullshit requirements like getting locked into a bad ending pretty early and then having to go through the whole game again to get a true ending.

Perhaps the most obscure bad ending I'm aware of is the one in Ducktales NES.

If you beat the game with $0 Cash, you get a unique ending with news reporting Scrooge has lost all his money, but the requirements to get this ending are so unintuitive and convoluted that most people don't know the ending even exists. It's more of an easter egg than an actual ending.

See for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiD5ob8wwwo

HabeeNo · May 27, 2016

If that was the case, Catherine would lose some of its charm

Kyuur · May 27, 2016

Gotdatmoney said:
People tahm bout bad ending good endings? Play Cave Story then come back here and tell me that shit isnt awful. The shit you gotta do to get the "good" ending is fucking ridiculous. The game makes a bunch of mentions throughout the game (pretty clever ones) but to put it all together in 1 playthrough. I doubt it.

Cave Story is a perfect example of doing it right though; the bad ending is very obvious and easy to avoid, the good ending is a fine closing, and the perfect/secret ending is well hidden but not absurdly obscure. The only thing you really have to do (iirc) is make a particular jump, and then everything else falls in place.

KeRaSh · May 27, 2016

I'm not against bad endings but it bummed me the fuck out when I got the worst ending in Witcher 3 only because of some stupid dialog choices that I misinterpreted or thought would take the conversation in a different direction. THAT should not be a thing.

SeanTSC · May 27, 2016

myco666 said:
I don't know about fast considering you need to play entirety Claire and Moira part of Episode 3 and entirety of Episode 4. Also that doesn't change the fact that the execution is bad.

Because you can just jump down to the lowest difficulty and blitz them. From personal experience of doing that it's rather fast. I also completely disagree with the execution being bad.

myco666 · May 27, 2016

SeanTSC said:
Because you can just jump down to the lowest difficulty and blitz them. From personal experience of doing that it's rather fast. I also completely disagree with the execution being bad.

You still have to do all those encounters. Granted I kinda dislike the game anyway so having to play almost half of the game again just to get the final encounter was really bad for me. As for the execution you don't think that it is possible to 'fail' the scene for being too good and not even seeing that you are able to change characters? Then there is the coop which is even worse since you can't control Moira for several seconds making it look like only thing to do the Claire QTE. It could have been handled so much better IMO.

Akuun · May 27, 2016

Kyuur said:
Cave Story is a perfect example of doing it right though; the bad ending is very obvious and easy to avoid, the good ending is a fine closing, and the perfect/secret ending is well hidden but not absurdly obscure. The only thing you really have to do (iirc) is make a particular jump, and then everything else falls in place.

I agree that the bad and normal endings are fine endings that appropriately close the story according to the choices you made.

But the good ending is actually kinda obscure to the point where I probably wouldn't have found it on my own. The jump you're talking about involves

deliberately ignoring a cue that implies you should do something else, and the stuff about de-watering Curly is also

kind of obscure.

I do love all three endings of the game though. Even the normal ending does a good job of tying up the story. It's just that the good ending is, well, the better outcome for the situation.

Morrigan Stark · May 27, 2016

Aters said:
I hate bad endings. If they want replay value, they can add a secret true ending.

What would that change? Just call the secret true ending the good ending and the normal ending the bad ending and people would continue bitching...

Bad ending just feel like the hours I put into the game lead to nothing.

So all the fun you had playing the game was for nothing?

NinjaCoachZ said:
999 is a great example of how to do multiple endings since the game is all about choice. If each choice led to the same ending, the player would be discouraged from fully exploring everything in the game. So a repeated playthrough gives you new game, introduces some new mysteries, builds the world, allows you to spend more time with the charming characters and getting to know them better, and offers new perspectives on the various events that occur. It's a slow burn but very worth it.

I wouldn't even call most of them bad endings. The game is specifically designed so that you get them first and then replay until you can unlock the true one. The only one that's truly a bad (as in bad/frustrating) ending is the coffin one, since

it is the exact same as the true ending, except it cuts out randomly

.

999 is actually an awful example.

If you do all the right choices the first try you still get the bad ending, because the game insists you must replay it. Of course when I played again I made different choices since I figured hey, my previous choices lead to a bad ending. Yeah... no.

Game sucked anyway. Can't believe I got suckered into not only playing this game but replaying it too...

Fbh · May 27, 2016

A bad ending adds weight to the decisions made in the game.

If the outcome is going to be positive no matter what to do game with choices loose a lot of the tension from taking those choices

Intheflorsh · May 27, 2016

The bad endings in The Witcher 3 are way more interesting and fleshed out than the good ending.

Galang · May 27, 2016

Kyuur said:
Cave Story is a perfect example of doing it right though; the bad ending is very obvious and easy to avoid, the good ending is a fine closing, and the perfect/secret ending is well hidden but not absurdly obscure. The only thing you really have to do (iirc) is make a particular jump, and then everything else falls in place.

Cave story is the perfect example of doing it wrong. I absolutely love Cave Story, but the hints it gives you to obtain the "good ending" are super obscure and silly. 99% of people wouldn't have known how to get the good ending without a guide. Not to mention you have to do everything perfectly in a certain order. There's no room for error if you miss even a little part to my knowledge. How to get the normal ending is obvious yeah I'll give you that

ishibear · May 27, 2016

I thought the way Rev 2 set up you up for the bad ending was fairly reasonable. It's a moment of putting the player in Moira's shoes. Naturally we want to hurry and save Claire so we chose to be her and finish

Neal

. It was scary to see Claire in trouble but if we give it time and remember Moira is there, it's risky but rewarding.

I played it with my sister and she was rushing me to save Claire but I told her to try and move instead. Once Moira was moving, I knew this was pivotal to her development and while we were both freaking out, she got the

gun

and we literally went wild -- it was so awesome.

Tbh, the first play through we messed up that but she and I redid the 3rd chapter and were able to reverse the bad ending. And it's also worth mentioning we played during the launch so we had a week in-between to redo this before the last chapter was open.

Silent Hill 3, I believe is a nice way to handle multiple endings though. Your first play through, it's impossible to get the bad ending. Your second? Oh yeah. And I'll never forget it haha

JackelZXA · May 27, 2016

Galang said:
Cave story is the perfect example of doing it wrong. I absolutely love Cave Story, but the hints it gives you to obtain the "good ending" are super obscure and silly. 99% of people wouldn't have known how to get the good ending without a guide. Not to mention you have to do everything perfectly in a certain order. There's no room for error if you miss even a little part to my knowledge. How to get the normal ending is obvious yeah I'll give you that

The game design associated with the good ending (The alternate final cave, the stage and 4 form final boss) are so intense in difficulty that only the initiated need apply in the first place. I think the bad ending is hilarious (giving up and leaving) and the normal ending is actually my favorite. The powers you end up with in the normal ending due to the character deaths that occur as a result give you a different toolset than in the good ending, and I feel like that ending is more bittersweet. The good ending is a bonus for people who want to get the best ending they possibly can get, but it's also the most difficult series of challenges in the game. I think the balance is fine, because the two experiences are wholly different. You experience different things with different weapons and powerups in each. It is the best case of this sort of thing that I can think of.

jblank83 · May 27, 2016

Fbh said:
A bad ending adds weight to the decisions made in the game.

If the outcome is going to be positive no matter what to do game with choices loose a lot of the tension from taking those choices

Tension is bad. Failing is bad.

All games are now semi-interactive movies. Preorder the season pass today.

JackelZXA · May 27, 2016

jres80 said:
Tension is bad. Failing is bad.

All games are now semi-interactive movies. Preorder the season pass today.

Bad outcomes can be interesting, too. It's not explicitly worse as an experience. Honestly, I think perfect endings are less interesting, there's more going on in the story in a semi-bad case. I think Mass Effect is most interesting when you lose some people along the way and have some bad choices that rebound in later games. Having to actually resolve the situation on Rannoch in a way that doesn't give everyone what they want (cheaply), creates a strong moment. Both bad endings to Rannoch are such big tearjerkers in different ways and feel so much more meaningful than "nanny shepard" making everyone play nice.

ishibear · May 27, 2016

Bad endings have their place in games. Replay value is one reason.

Greddleok · May 30, 2016

ishibear said:
Bad endings have their place in games. Replay value is one reason.

If the game is good enough to play a second time, I will. If it's not, a different ending isn't going to convince me otherwise.

John Kowalski · May 30, 2016

I've thought about this. I don't like bad endings either, and wish games would handle things in a way that avoided obvious bad/neutral/good endings and the hierarchy that comes with that kind of thing. Although, in some ways, i guess players would always do that distinction themselves. LiS doesn't do the good ending bad ending thing but it's clear what is and what isn't morally honourable, so there still is a good ending in that case, even if that just means "the ending i think is good". But that's still a step forwards.

I don't mind true endings, i like it when they're super tough to figure out.

UrbanRats · May 30, 2016

Road of Ease said:
...who enjoys this though?

I think OP has a point tbh

I do.
Bad ending in Silent Hill 2 was actually the canonical one.

Frozenprince · May 30, 2016

Yes lets just remove any consequence to player agency, you know, the thing that makes video games video games instead of AAA movies where you push a button to have the cool shit happen rather than just watching it.

If anything there should be more "bad" endings. Player agency and decisions should lead into a varying set of endings in every game because video games are a uniquely interactive entertainment medium.

The ending you got is the ending you got because of YOUR interaction with the game itself. The fact that it exists isn't a negative to the product itself. If you don't like the ending that's one thing, but you got the ending you got because of the way you played. That should be lauded not removed.

The day every game is just one long interactive hallway to one clean cut destination is the day I stop playing them.

ymgve · May 30, 2016

KeRaSh said:
I'm not against bad endings but it bummed me the fuck out when I got the worst ending in Witcher 3 only because of some stupid dialog choices that I misinterpreted or thought would take the conversation in a different direction. THAT should not be a thing.

Yeah, I was annoyed that I didn't get the good ending - thankfully I had a save game close enough to the end before one of the dialog choices and could reload and see both endings.

I guess CDProjekt Red know they made it a bit obscure, because if you play Hearts of Stone before you finish the main quest,

you can do the "bad end" of the DLC and ask about Ciri, and you'll get hints about the right choices to pick to save her. (Video)

JackelZXA · May 30, 2016

KeRaSh said:
I'm not against bad endings but it bummed me the fuck out when I got the worst ending in Witcher 3 only because of some stupid dialog choices that I misinterpreted or thought would take the conversation in a different direction. THAT should not be a thing.

Bad dialog choices are a bad thing for sure. Alot of games try to be snappy to have "the wheel" look clean but honestly a little more explanation of each choice couldn't hurt.

Javier · May 30, 2016

JackelZXA said:
Bad dialog choices are a bad thing for sure. Alot of games try to be snappy to have "the wheel" look clean but honestly a little more explanation of each choice couldn't hurt.

This is why most VNs give you an obscene amount of save files (Root Double has 100 save slots for manual saving, in addition to another 100 for auto saving at the beginning of every scene). Most VN players are used to save at every dialogue choice.

Freeman · May 30, 2016

Persona 4 bad ending is a big midle finger to the player.

Iva Demilcol · May 30, 2016

Morrigan Stark said:
999 is actually an awful example.

If you do all the right choices the first try you still get the bad ending, because the game insists you must replay it. Of course when I played again I made different choices since I figured hey, my previous choices lead to a bad ending. Yeah... no.

Game sucked anyway. Can't believe I got suckered into not only playing this game but replaying it too...

Totally agree with both your opinion about the ending and your opinion about the game. I played it before I had an account on GAF, when I joined GAF I began to see this game mentioned everywhere because it was apparently great but I don't agree. Story is dumb, the puzzles are bad and you have to play it at least twice to being able to "realize" the game is a masterpiece when it plays as badly as one of those experimental newgrounds Flash game, except that there are some Flash games more interesting than this, also my blood boils every time the characters start to talk about all the pseudoscientific stuff that they used as excuse for their ridiculous story.

I hate that fucking game.

visiblemode · May 30, 2016

vulva said:
Then just fucking watch it on youtube and let the people who enjoy these things have their fun

Yeah...I mean, it's hard to argue with this. If all endings are by default, good, then it seems like it'd be a similar experience.

I don't understand the point of removing a feature and replay value, when you can just look up endings you don't feel like earning.

Puruzi · May 30, 2016

I like bad endings. Suffering is good for the soul

Linkark07 · May 30, 2016

Meccanical said:
Are you one of those people think that

Nanako should have stayed dead?

Because if so I agree wholeheartedly. Major conflicts lose tension when there are no casualties, complications, or consequences

Someone who agrees with me? Finally.

Nanako should have stayed dead. Bringing her back was cheap and stupid in many ways.

Bold One · Jun 3, 2016

Agreed,

My Hype for Deus Ex Mankind Divided plummeted because in the HR, I saved the pilot and went to great lengths to do it too, she and Jensen made a better couple in my head canon.

Being told her death is canon in the sequel made my efforts pointless.

Same with Infamous, good ending, bad ending, the next game will pick one for you any way so why bother implementing this system?

MattyG · Jun 3, 2016

Intheflorsh said:
The bad endings in The Witcher 3 are way more interesting and fleshed out than the good ending.

I'm on what I assume to be the last quest of The Witcher 3 and I'm absolutely horrified that I'm going to get a bad ending and fuck up my worldstate (no spoilers, please!)

I just hate bad endings at the end of big RPGs like this because I feel like I spent so much time with it and now I might be missing out on content or I'm not getting the best ending possible. I hate knowing that there's other endings to big games like this, and feeling like I got the worst one, like I somehow failed.

Bebpo · Jun 3, 2016

Yeah, actually I agree. Nothing like putting 70 hours into an rpg only to not get to see the ending whoops.
Thank god that's A) luckily never happened to me and B) youtube exists if it ever did.

Multiple endings are good, but a complete "you don't get to see the ending lol" bad ending in any kind of game that is lengthy is bad. Unless there's like a save point right before it and it's a "yes/no" choice so you can just redo it. But stuff where there are flags dozens of hours prior that you'd have to change....bad idea.

shmoglish · Jun 3, 2016

There are different endings in revelations 2?

AgeEighty · Jun 3, 2016

I like alternate endings when they are the result of conscious choices by the player, e.g. the different endings in BioShock. I don't like them when they are the result of the player succeeding or failing to reach some arbitrary and invisible performance goalposts, e.g. the endings in Disgaea games.

Spoo · Jun 3, 2016

I don't hate "bad endings" per se, I just hate them when they feel tonally at odds with the material up to that point. A prime example in my opinion is the bad ending to The Witcher 3, which is triggered based on complete bullshit, but pretty much ruined, retroactively, my entire experience with the series. I wasn't looking for something that was going to be "feel good", or anything, but holy fucking shit.

Worst ending ever. After 80 hours with a game, no player deserves that pile of garbage.

Yeef · Jun 3, 2016

I feel like alternate endings add a lot to a game when done well. No matter which ending you get, you're likely going to watch all the others on youtube anyway. As long as the ending feels organic, it doesn't matter if you get the "bad" (or the good ending for that matter) ending.

One of my favorite ending moments in recent memory came from the "bad" ending of a game, which I actually had to watch on youtube, because I got a better ending:

"You are afraid... you feel fear."

"You lie. I don't feel a thing anymore."

His Majesty · Jun 3, 2016

Spoo said:
I don't hate "bad endings" per se, I just hate them when they feel tonally at odds with the material up to that point. A prime example in my opinion is the bad ending to The Witcher 3, which is triggered based on complete bullshit, but pretty much ruined, retroactively, my entire experience with the series. I wasn't looking for something that was going to be "feel good", or anything, but holy fucking shit.

Worst ending ever. After 80 hours with a game, no player deserves that pile of garbage.

Work on your parenting skills.

BigTnaples · Jun 3, 2016

I like the concept of your choices having concequenses without the game telegraphing "This is Bad!" Before every choice.

Life doesn't do that, neither should games.

Morrigan Stark · Jun 3, 2016

Iva Demilcol said:
Totally agree with both your opinion about the ending and your opinion about the game. I played it before I had an account on GAF, when I joined GAF I began to see this game mentioned everywhere because it was apparently great but I don't agree. Story is dumb, the puzzles are bad and you have to play it at least twice to being able to "realize" the game is a masterpiece when it plays as badly as one of those experimental newgrounds Flash game, except that there are some Flash games more interesting than this, also my blood boils every time the characters start to talk about all the pseudoscientific stuff that they used as excuse for their ridiculous story.

I hate that fucking game.

THANK YOU.

The constant praise this game gets is nothing short of mind-boggling. All it has going for it are story and some puzzles, and some of the puzzles were OK, but not enough to carry the game, which needed good writing because there was just so much of it... and all of it was total trash (and yes the pseudoscience horseshit irks me too! I have nothing against fantasy elements but this was just annoying).

EvilMario · Jun 3, 2016

I love me multiple endings, including bad ones. Not every decision.. not every story.. has a happy ending. I love seeing how my choices impacted what the outcome is.

Shiggy · Jun 3, 2016

Iva Demilcol said:
Totally agree with both your opinion about the ending and your opinion about the game. I played it before I had an account on GAF, when I joined GAF I began to see this game mentioned everywhere because it was apparently great but I don't agree. Story is dumb, the puzzles are bad and you have to play it at least twice to being able to "realize" the game is a masterpiece when it plays as badly as one of those experimental newgrounds Flash game, except that there are some Flash games more interesting than this, also my blood boils every time the characters start to talk about all the pseudoscientific stuff that they used as excuse for their ridiculous story.

I hate that fucking game.

Glad I wasn't the only one who found the story and characters terrible. Coming from the CING games, it was so cringeworthy.

laxu · Jun 3, 2016

KeRaSh said:
I'm not against bad endings but it bummed me the fuck out when I got the worst ending in Witcher 3 only because of some stupid dialog choices that I misinterpreted or thought would take the conversation in a different direction. THAT should not be a thing.

Yeah the game does have a fair amount of dialog choices that turn out to be not what you expected because the line Geralt says is not what you choose. The key choices are actually quite clearly worded though but not necessarily obvious that they will have long term consequenses.

Overall I do like how they've written it as the reactions from characters are not always as you might expect which makes them feel more real. I just got a "bad end" to a quest in the new expansion because I took a different side at one point but the great thing was that the bad end revealed a bad side of a character that you would not otherwise see, turning my opinion of him upside down and thus I did not feel I got a bad end, just a different one. I love that there is a lot of gray area in Witcher 3 and lot of the endings are not necessarily better or worse.

blankempathy · Jun 20, 2016

I remember glancing over this thread and as someone who recently got the bad ending in revelations 2, yea it was shit. I don't mind bad endings. They have their place and can be fun as an alternative reality type scenario. My problem is when they're poorly implemented. Revelations ending defining moment is so vague and easy to overlook because of how it plays out.

A hulking boss you just fought just fell on top of Claire and is trying to kill her. Shes reaching for the gun while Moira is on the floor a few feet away and injured. The perspective starts on Claire and shows the square button flashing on screen like your standard qte prompt but in the top it has a "switch characters" prompt as well. So I switch over and start holding the joystick towards the direction of the gun, even though you're not told to do this by a prompt. I just assumed to do that because as a long time gamer I'm just making an educated guess. But when I do that I notice nothing really happens. Apparently Moira just moves really slow and seeing as with most qte prompts, especially ones with giant monsters in your face, you typically want to enter that qte prompt as quickly as possible before you fail. So I end up switching back to claire due to my impatience and slam on that qte button and finish that section. No ones injured. Nothing appears to have gone badly due to having Claire save herself. But apparently what I miss was this so called "redemption" moment where Moira uses the gun because apparently shes scared of using them because of a glossed over story that gets brought up maybe twice or three times where she accidentally shot her sister when they were kids. So during that heat of the moment the developers apparently want you to remember that glossed over backstory and make a connection between that and having Moira use a gun and save Claire. Umm yea ok.

It just seemed like a failure on all levels. Her backstory is never really the focus in the game. Yes its the reason why theres a rift between her and Barry but theres never really a focus on her being afraid of guns. Its a failure because during that heat of the moment theres no prompt for Moira to move towards the gun like there is for Claire trying to reach for it. Its a failure because nothing seems to be lost if you have Claire save herself and you won't even know you are on the road towards a bad ending until you see it and think "is that it?". Its a failure because this game was episodic in nature and people at the earliest may have played sections a week apart which means they may remember less if they played it back to back. Hell I played it back to back and that whole Moira and guns backstory still didn't come to mind during that QTE.

SeeNoWeevil · Jun 20, 2016

I completely agree, OP. I'm sick of getting the shitty ending because I didn't follow a guide or collect items on the way.

skelekey · Jun 20, 2016

It depends on the game for me. Arkham knight was especially egregious with this. I gave up and just watched it on youtube. Riddler is a rich nutjob. Where did he even get the money, workforce, or time to set all that bullshit up.

Sifl · Jun 20, 2016

I'd rather games did a better job giving you better and more convincing choices that lead to said "bad, good and neutral" endings. Witcher 3 is one of my favorite games, but the choices that effect the endings are the biggest offenders I can think of off the top of my head. The main choice that leads to the neutral (or I guess you can say bittersweet) ending is the only 1 that remotely makes an sense.

I don't mind playing through a game blind the first time and getting whatever ending I get. But, when I look online to figure out what choices effected what

like I did with the Witcher 3

and the choices don't make any sense or feel like they should be inconsequential I feel disappointed.

UncleSporky · Jun 20, 2016

I think people are far more accepting of bad endings when the game has a ton of questlines with bad endings or less-than-optimal endings, just to show that this is how the game goes, you can expect to be unsatisfied at times, and the main quest might end like any other.

Revelations isn't an RPG, there's not a lot of choice and variety in how each part of the game concludes.

Meanwhile a series like Mass Effect has 3 different endings and people are pissed because there aren't more permutations based on your previous choices. What if they'd listened to OP and there was just one good ending?

Jacqli · Jun 21, 2016

I love them, they were the best part of Corpse Party. Although I agree that some of the labeled good endings are too obtuse and convoluted if you want to achieve them, but if they are done well, they make the game much more enjoyable and rewarding.

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