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4K console gaming, HDMI limitations and 60fps - major elephant in the room

G

gossi

Member
I looked for a topic and couldn't find it, apologies if discussed.

4K TVs come with HDMI ports. What version of HDMI you have depends on the TV, not the cable or console. Older versions don't support 60fps.

Many HD TVs shipped with HDMI 1.4, and some still continue to (I just almost purchased one). HDMI 1.4 and below does not support 60fps.

HDMI 2.0+ is the newest standard, and supports 18Gbps bandwidth and 60fps 4K.

So there is going to be a weird situation with next gen consoles being sold to consumers on 4K, many of which aren't going to have a TV capable out of outputting 60fps in 4K.

So, like, how is that going to work for developers? Target 60fps and then have consumers who can't play on their 4K TV unless they upgrade TV again?
 
B

biglittleps

Member
Consoles are not targeting 60fps for 4k and even for movies you don't need more than 30fps.

EDIT: Does 1080p 60fps upscaling to 4k works on HDMI 1.4 bandwidth ?
 
A

Aztechnology

Member
gossi said:
I looked for a topic and couldn't find it, apologies if discussed.

4K TVs come with HDMI ports. What version of HDMI you have depends on the TV, not the cable or console. Older versions don't support 60fps.

Many HD TVs shipped with HDMI 1.4, and some still continue to (I just almost purchased one). HDMI 1.4 and below does not support 60fps.

HDMI 2.0+ is the newest standard, and supports 18Gbps bandwidth and 60fps 4K.

So there is going to be a weird situation with next gen consoles being sold to consumers on 4K, many of which aren't going to have a TV capable out of outputting 60fps in 4K.

So, like, how is that going to work for developers? Target 60fps and then have consumers who can't play on their 4K TV unless they upgrade TV again?
Click to expand...

I don't know of a single 4k TV that was sold outside of Seiki that didn't have HDMI 2.0 on at least one of its HDMI ports. If you have a 4K TV, I doubt this is an issue. Not to mention unless the new consoles have $600+ dollar GPU's in them they aren't going to be seeing 4k/60fps. (Hint they won't, roughly AMD 480 level GPU's supposed to be featured in the Neo and Scorpio which means 40k/30 for gaming if they even focus on 4k.)
 
G

gossi

Member
shiftplusone said:
Why the assumption that devs are going to even try 60fps?

Right now it seems the majority shoots for 25 and calls it a day
Click to expand...

DICE, maybe? Or dynamic resolution scaling.

I mean, it even means older titles can't be upscaled to 4K in 60fps. Battlefield 1 at 30fps on Scorio, upscaled?
 
shanafan

shanafan

Member
I think the bigger issue is that the majority of HDTV's in homes aren't 4K to begin with. Selling a product geared towards a much smaller market.

Maybe that trend will be different a year from now, though.
 
R

RealityCheque

Banned
The highest end PCs can't output 4K/60. Neo and Scorpio wont be able to come close. Even a locked 30 could be challenging.

Your point still stands though, most TVs are expected to last a long time. The next next gen consoles could be easily held back by this.
 
K

Kyoufu

Member
By the time you see any console and any developer offering 4K 60fps games then the early adopted TVs with 30fps limitations are going to be in the minority.
 
M

Mindwipe

Member
Not really an issue on consoles. This forthcoming point five gen will have games at 60FPS OR 4K, not both at once.

Possible to do a UHD Blu-ray at 60 fps with 4K that doesn't play on an older 4K TV because of the lack of a fast enough port that supports HDCP 2.2, but that issue is no different for consoles than it is for UHD Blu-ray players.
 
M

Mindwipe

Member
RealityCheque said:
Your point still stands though, most TVs are expected to last a long time. The next next gen consoles could be easily held back by this.
Click to expand...

I think it's going to shorten, and I'm afraid that people who bought non-HDR 4K TVs with bad inputs are going to get shafted by absolutely every type of content service and are going to find they have to move to something else quicker than they anticipated.
 
S

stan423321

Member
shiftplusone said:
Why the assumption that devs are going to even try 60fps?

Right now it seems the majority shoots for 25 and calls it a day
Click to expand...

The absolutely "hilarious" thing is that if TV devs ended up spreading 50 fps transfer modes everywhere (instead of leaving them in Europe and spreading 60 fps ones there) 25 fps would be not much worse than 30 fps yet possibly more stable. The same about 50 to 60, of course. And of course, FreeSync would make anything in-between nicer to the eye compared to what current displays do.

The developers deny that the game's 44 fps rate is a reference to Barack Obama hate campaign, pointing to portrayed events of World War 2's Atlantic Theatre's finale.
 
T

ThatEuroGuy

Member
Coming from SNES via Original Xbox, I know performance is just accessory to Art-Direction and overall Game-Design (controls+level-design)

I really hope next gen (Ps5) will be able to output 1080/60 with perfect antialiasing and nice light/shadows/DOF/particles

That would be enough until 2025 if you ask me 👍
 
BigTnaples

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
It will work fine.

1080p 60 up sales to 4K 60 and works fine over 1.4..


Native 4K games won't be targeting 60.


Even a 1080 only manages 4K 60 in less than a handful of new games.
 
metareferential

metareferential

Member
ThatEuroGuy said:
Coming from SNES via Original Xbox, I know performance is just accessory to Art-Direction and overall Game-Design (controls+level-design)
Click to expand...

Coming from the old days (if it's true and you're not just trying to be hip), you should know that performance (which doesn't only mean "graphics") is the only thing that matters in video games.

For anyone who doesn't have a 4k set: wait until hdr and other specs are common practice and hdmi is fast enough.
 
V

Vinc

Member
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but those older/cheaper 4K sets also tend to have very high input lag that is unsuitable for gaming, no?
 
G

GOOCHY

Member
Devs, generally, do not care about 60 fps regardless of resolution. Hell, even most gamers don't care about 60 fps.
 
I

III-V

Member
I would not worry too much about 4K/60 games on console anytime soon, OP.

It is a good PSA however, to future proof your TV. Get that updated HDMI spec and also HDR.
 
T

ThatEuroGuy

Member
metareferential said:
Coming from the old days (if it's true and you're not just trying to be hip), you should know that performance (which doesn't only mean "graphics") is the only thing that matters in video games.

For anyone who doesn't have a 4k set: wait until hdr and other specs are common practice and hdmi is fast enough.
Click to expand...

Nope, i really can't remember a Shooter on Snes with smooth scrolling, I loved them for their beauty not for their performance
Besides, in Europe we had 50hz marred with antenna-cable definition
Can't say fluidity was my target when playing, back in the days Japanese art design was the main fuel for my passion

(Edited)
 
C

Commanche Raisin Toast

Member
This reminds me of all those people that had HDTV's and found out they only supported up to 1080i instead of 1080p. And it was right around the time 360/PS3 were coming out.

I don't think it ended up being that big of a deal in the long run, but right now I'm shopping around online for 4K TVs and I'm not finding very many that don't have HDMI 2.0.
 
T

TheHellsLord

Member
Actually a lot of Devices with only HDMI 1.4 and 4k Panels have been sold. In the end all components (Source (Console), Cables and Sink (TV)) need to support HDMI 2.0 in order for 4k to work with full color depth and 60 Hz.

I guess if a game would generate 60 Hz at 4k (which based on the Specs rumored for PS4k and Scorpio seems rather unlikely to me) and the connection would not allow for it I guess the console would simply only send half the number of frames to the TV.

It's pretty much the same as when a console supports 4K Output but you only have a FullHD Display. Aside from that - the PS3 also supported outputting Video to a 50 Hz PAL analog signal although it was able to provide 1080p HD via HDMI.

In the end you likely won't end up with a situation where the console and TV won't work at all with each other but it's definitely a good idea to make sure that your new 4K enabled TV has HDMI 2.0 ports and if you go through a Home Cinema Receiver that would be another device that might interfere.

PS: On the cable issue. It's mainly about the quality of the cable. Good HDMI 1.4 cables might fullfil the HDMI 2.0 specification. They are not guaranteed though. Especially if you have long connections between the components. I need a signal amplifier between my Xbox and Video Projector for it to work properly.
 
metareferential

metareferential

Member
ThatEuroGuy said:
Nope, i really can't remember a Shooter on Snes with smooth scrolling, I loved them for their beauty not for their performance
Besides, in Europe we had 50hz marred with antenna-cable definition


(Edited)
Click to expand...

Well, Europe was a second class market.

And if you wanted to experience the games they way they were meant to, you would go to an arcade. That's what I was referring to, of course.

ThatEuroGuy said:
Can't say fluidity was my target when playing, back in the days Japanese art design was the main fuel for my passion
Click to expand...

Fair enough. But that's your problem xD
 
P

pelican

Member
I've just bought a 4K tv which I am very happy with - good input lag, HDR, good 1080p up-scaling.

It is a minefield when buying one. DO your research or as the OP mentions you could be shafted with a hdmi 1.4 port and 30fps @ 4K.

I am day one for Neo and Scorpio. I don't expect the NEO to be delivering Native 4K @ 60fps, but I do expect an internal up-scaling solution. While my TV produces a very good up-scale image I'd expect the console doing the work itself will reduce input lag even further.
 
A

Always-honest

Banned
70s Style Pimp said:
I've just bought a 4K tv which I am very happy with - good input lag, HDR, good 1080p up-scaling.

It is a minefield when buying one. DO your research or as the OP mentions you could be shafted with a hdmi 1.4 port and 30fps @ 4K.

I am day one for Neo and Scorpio. I don't expect the NEO to be delivering Native 4K @ 60fps, but I do expect an internal up-scaling solution. While my TV produces a very good up-scale image I'd expect the console doing the work itself will reduce input lag even further.
Click to expand...

What screen did you buy?
 
M

Mr. Wonderful

Member
The HDMI versions are a cluster. Even at HDMI 2.0b, you can't do 4K 10-bit 4:4:4.

I hope they're at least able to add dynamic HDR10 support.
 
Pagusas

Pagusas

Elden Member
gossi said:
I looked for a topic and couldn't find it, apologies if discussed.

4K TVs come with HDMI ports. What version of HDMI you have depends on the TV, not the cable or console. Older versions don't support 60fps.

Many HD TVs shipped with HDMI 1.4, and some still continue to (I just almost purchased one). HDMI 1.4 and below does not support 60fps.

HDMI 2.0+ is the newest standard, and supports 18Gbps bandwidth and 60fps 4K.

So there is going to be a weird situation with next gen consoles being sold to consumers on 4K, many of which aren't going to have a TV capable out of outputting 60fps in 4K.

So, like, how is that going to work for developers? Target 60fps and then have consumers who can't play on their 4K TV unless they upgrade TV again?
Click to expand...

Unless your looking at some cheap or old 4k screen, there is no chance you'll be getting a 4k screen without HDMI 2.0 in 2016. And even if you did, HDMI 1.4 does actually support 4k@60hz, just not in 4:4:4, it'll support it at 8-bit 4:2:0. That wont matter though as the people buying such cheap or old screens wouldnt know the first thing about what they are looking at or care.

Regardless this is a non-issue. If you somehow ended up with a 4k screen without hdmi 2.0, either accept the color compression, accept a 30hz 4k signal (which the consoles likely wont even support the output of at the dashboard or game level) or drop down to full 4:4:4 1080p@60hz, which 1.4 more than supports. If you are silly enough to buy a 4k screen before hdmi 2.0 was incorporated you knew you were screwing yourself over, same goes if you get one after the fact, esspecially on gaf given that every 4k TV thread before 2016 featured numerous warnings about any screen that didnt have 2.0 in it.
 
T

ThatEuroGuy

Member
metareferential said:
Well, Europe was a second class market.

And if you wanted to experience the games they way they were meant to, you would go to an arcade. That's what I was referring to, of course.



Fair enough. But that's your problem xD
Click to expand...

Yeah, NTSC stuff was the best
Of course I was also an arcade addict: i was able to finish Kikikaikai, Shinobi, Psychic5, Darwin 2041, Strider and Esh's Aurunmilla with 1 credit

Sorry for the OT guys!!
 
mitchman

mitchman

Gold Member
RealityCheque said:
The highest end PCs can't output 4K/60. Neo and Scorpio wont be able to come close. Even a locked 30 could be challenging.
Click to expand...
Sure they do, but you might need to drop down to High instead of playing in Ultra on that PC. GTX 1080 can certainly do 4k/60fps with almost all games, but some requires lowering the quality a bit.
 
Sapiens

Sapiens

Member
The only major elephant in the room is that they're promising 4k when they can't even get 1080/60 on a consistent basis.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Commanche Raisin Toast said:
This reminds me of all those people that had HDTV's and found out they only supported up to 1080i instead of 1080p. And it was right around the time 360/PS3 were coming out.

I don't think it ended up being that big of a deal in the long run, but right now I'm shopping around online for 4K TVs and I'm not finding very many that don't have HDMI 2.0.
Click to expand...

The PS3 had issues with very early HDTVs because a lot of them supported 480p and 1080i but not 720p. Without a hardware scaler like 360, a lot of the games would run in 480p on those old sets, if I remember correctly.
 
Pagusas

Pagusas

Elden Member
sixteen-bit said:
The PS3 had issues with very early HDTVs because a lot of them supported 480p and 1080i but not 720p. Without a hardware scaler like 360, a lot of the games would run in 480p on those old sets, if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

Thats correct, though it was quickly fixed after launch by developers putting in 1080i fallback support into their games.
 
S

system11

Member
Sapiens said:
The only major elephant in the room is that they're promising 4k when they can't even get 1080/60 on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...

That and I'm not really seeing customers crying out for 4k. The only positive comments I see about 4K purchases is that older content scales up well. Even in shop demos of ideal conditions honestly there's not much in it. It's not like the night and day comparison between 1080P compressed for streaming and a high quality blu-ray.
 
J

jeffc919

Member
Mindwipe said:
I think it's going to shorten, and I'm afraid that people who bought non-HDR 4K TVs with bad inputs are going to get shafted by absolutely every type of content service and are going to find they have to move to something else quicker than they anticipated.
Click to expand...

That's the risk of being an early adopter. I remember researching my first HDTV purchase and trying to decide between 720p/1080p. At the time there were quite a few TVs that claimed to be 1080p because they had 1080p capable panels but they didn't have any inputs capable of delivering a 1080p stream to it so it was quite a pointless (and disingenuous) thing to advertise.
 
F

Fliesen

Member
i find it weird that people are dismissing 4k60 entirely.

We have plenty of 1080p60 games on current consoles - and if a game's not all about visual spectacle, i don't see why there shouldn't be any 60fps games at 4k.

Stuff like Resogun would look great in 4k60
 
S

Smokey

Member
RealityCheque said:
The highest end PCs can't output 4K/60. Neo and Scorpio wont be able to come close. Even a locked 30 could be challenging.

Your point still stands though, most TVs are expected to last a long time. The next next gen consoles could be easily held back by this.
Click to expand...

Yes...they can?
 
B

bomblord1

Banned
Implying you can do modern games with the expected effects at 4k 60fps on 4-6tf

giphy.gif
 
BigTnaples

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
system11 said:
That and I'm not really seeing customers crying out for 4k. The only positive comments I see about 4K purchases is that older content scales up well. Even in shop demos of ideal conditions honestly there's not much in it. It's not like the night and day comparison between 1080P compressed for streaming and a high quality blu-ray.
Click to expand...



You're completely and utterly incorrect.

Native 4K is an insane leap from native 1080p. And even from 1440p it is quite the leap.


In store setups are FAR from ideal.
 
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