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Why are So Many Indie Games So Puzzle-Heavy?

A

Alpha Phoenix

Member
Over the past few years, I have been playing more and more indie titles (thanks in large part to the ID@Xbox program). If there is one thing I've noticed, it's that the average indie title has a LOT more puzzles than just about any AAA game on the market. Is there any particular reason for this? Or is it some weird coincidence?
 
S

Skilletor

Member
It seems like the general sentiment around AAA games is that people just want to "relax" they don't want to get stuck or have to think. I saw this a lot when talking about Tomb Raider.

Indie games seem to appeal to a market that has vanished from the AAA space, and a part of that is problem solving and puzzles.
 
M

MadClacker

Member
Indie game developers are not burdened by the constant pressure from publishers to include an explosion every 5 seconds and gives them the chance to include some mechanic based gameplay that you wouldn't typically find on AAA releases.
 
A

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Puzzles generally do not include enemies to animate and combat to balance and finetune.
 
Pyrrhus

Pyrrhus

Member
Aureon said:
Puzzles generally do not include enemies to animate and combat to balance and finetune.
Click to expand...

I think this has more truth to it than most here are going to be willing to admit. Nothing wrong at all with puzzles, but when you've got no AI, no collision detection, no complex models to build and animate, and so on, well, that certainly makes it a little easier to get the game done, doesn't it?
 
H

HvySky

Member
Indie developers can afford to take greater creative risks more so than major publishers and studios, one of those risks being the idea that conflict or progression can be approached in ways other than guns and 'splosions. Thus, puzzles.

That, or maybe they just realize that puzzles are awesome.

Edit:

MadClacker said:
Indie game developers are not burdened by the constant pressure from publishers to include an explosion every 5 seconds and gives them the chance to include some mechanic based gameplay that you wouldn't typically find on AAA releases.
Click to expand...

Yup. Budget constraints are also a possibility.
 
N

Nightii

Banned
While I can't claim it's the reason for it being that way (no hard proof of it), I thank indie games for providing me with lots of things that the ever encroaching AAA game industry shuns and declares "dated".
 
adversarial

adversarial

Member
Pyrrhus said:
I think this has more truth to it than most here are going to be willing to admit. Nothing wrong at all with puzzles, but when you've got no AI, no collision detection, no complex models to build and animate, and so on, well, that certainly makes it a little easier to get the game done, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

Never thought about it like that, but it makes sense.
 
U

UncleSporky

Member
It's a good way to increase the amount of time people spend playing your game without needing to create more content (textures, models etc.).
 
Tizoc

Tizoc

Member
Alpha Phoenix said:
Over the past few years, I have been playing more and more indie titles (thanks in large part to the ID@Xbox program. If there is one thing I've noticed, it's that the average indie title has a LOT more puzzles than just about any AAA game on the market. Is there any particular reason for this? Or is it some weird coincidence?
Click to expand...
Be more specific if u could, what indie games are puzzle heavy?
 
H

hydrophilic attack

Member
The question is really, why are there so few decent puzzles in AAA games? And the answer to that question is really simple:

The average Joe gamer that hates indies just because is not bright enough to solve any puzzle containing some amount of challenge
 
T

toddhunter

Member
If you don't have 15 hours of shooting things with guns or 200 hours of collecting things like an idiot you need to add something else.
 
T

thesonovabeach

Member
hydrophilic attack said:
The question is really, why are there so few decent puzzles in AAA games? And the answer to that question is really simple:

The average Joe gamer that hates indies just because is not bright enough to solve any puzzle containing some amount of challenge
Click to expand...

There is nothing bright about solving puzzles. Anyone can have the skills to overcome any puzzle game (besides some culture-centered ones like in FEZ). You just need the patience to enjoy it, not brightness.
 
R

redcrayon

Member
Alpha Phoenix said:
Over the past few years, I have been playing more and more indie titles (thanks in large part to the ID@Xbox program. If there is one thing I've noticed, it's that the average indie title has a LOT more puzzles than just about any AAA game on the market. Is there any particular reason for this? Or is it some weird coincidence?
Click to expand...
Puzzles are cheaper to develop. On the other hand, you could swap the question around and ask why the average AAA game has a lot more combat than most smaller titles on the market, because they wouldn't just choose it because it's more complex. Often combat encounters, particularly bosses, can be puzzles too, giving that same 'light bulb goes on above head' moment when you spot the vulnerable point or work out how to survive a devastating attack.

No reason to assume that combat should be the norm and puzzles the exception, outside of audience expectation. I think most AAA devs think their audience is scared of anything other than constant progress, which is why puzzles in Uncharted 3 had the option to solve themselves, and ancient dungeon puzzles in Skyrim required the skill level for pattern recognition of a small child.

I think it all comes back to playtesting, where a player is more likely to give up on a puzzle if they can't work out the logic behind it- we've all run up against stuff where, once you understand the puzzle, only then can you start to solve it. Give a player a tough combat encounter and they already understand the basic rules and the tools in play, so are more likely to give it one more go, especially if they do a bit more damage/get a bit further/last a bit longer each time. It's like running up against a stone wall compared to running up against a tough slope- one looks doable and the other appears like a dead end.
 
P

PeakPointMatrix

Member
Puzzles are much much cheaper to program and produce, while occupying a decent amount of playtime. Compared to the amount of dev dollars needed to create bigger and longer environment assets, including puzzles are a no-brainer.
 
A

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Pyrrhus said:
I think this has more truth to it than most here are going to be willing to admit. Nothing wrong at all with puzzles, but when you've got no AI, no collision detection, no complex models to build and animate, and so on, well, that certainly makes it a little easier to get the game done, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

As an indie developer... absolutely.
AI, collision etc aren't really issues, though. The real issue is the pipeline for character models, which goes something like...
Modelling [+retopology] -> rigging -> animating [mocap, cleanup, animator]
Also in the pie, texturing and voice.
And combat-related means a lot of QA, and a truckton of vfx\sfx to get through. And environment to place those in.

redcrayon said:
Puzzles are cheaper to develop. On the other hand, you could swap the question around and ask why the average AAA game has a lot more combat than most smaller titles on the market, because they wouldn't just choose it because it's more complex.

No reason to assume that combat should be the norm and puzzles the exception, outside of audience expectation. I think most AAA devs think their audience is scared of anything other than constant progress, which is why puzzles in Uncharted 3 had the option to solve themselves, and ancient dungeon puzzles in Skyrim required the skill level for pattern recognition of a small child.

I think it all comes back to playtesting, where a player is more likely to give up on a puzzle if they can't work out the logic behind it- we've all run up against stuff where, once you understand the puzzle, only then can you start to solve it. Give a player a tough combat encounter and they already understand the basic rules and the tools in play, so are more likely to give it one more go, especially if they do a bit more damage/get a bit further/last a bit longer each time. It's like running up against a stone wall compared to running up against a tough slope- one looks doable and the other appears like a dead end.
Click to expand...

To be fair, a properly formulated complex combat encounter can be seen as a puzzle. A time-sensitive, semi-randomized one, but still. Ask XCOM players about that : )

One legitimate observation, though, is that indie game developers are absolutely more comfortable with delivering much more challenging products. Puzzles only make sense if they're challenging, and that means puzzles with a reason to exist are over the challenge cutoff for AAA productions.
 
S

sikkinixx

Member
hydrophilic attack said:
The average Joe gamer that hates indies just because is not bright enough to solve any puzzle containing some amount of challenge
Click to expand...

Thank God us 133t gamers are around to cherish and appreciate the poor indies and their superior game design amirite?



Like others have said I bet Puzzles are a cost effective way, in terms of money but also labour, for a small studio to design a game around.
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
1) They can do what they want
2) It's less expensive to not have the AAA gaming quality of controls and movement or animation, so less combat is usually a thing.
3) Indi scene are usually counter to main stream gaming to a degree. If people want bang bang shooting games then they can get the latest AAA game. Indie games fill small niches that don't fall into the current gaming trends, and usually the best replacement of combat is puzzles that impede progress.
 
M

mokeyjoe

Member
hydrophilic attack said:
The question is really, why are there so few decent puzzles in AAA games? And the answer to that question is really simple:

The average Joe gamer that hates indies just because is not bright enough to solve any puzzle containing some amount of challenge
Click to expand...

I don't think so. The casual gaming space is full of puzzlers.
 
T

tcrunch

Member
It's been said, but puzzles are cheap. Indie games that simultaneously offer 1) 3D gamespaces, 2) production values (lots of moving/articulated models, high-quality textures, good animations), and 3) lots of combat mechanics are rare because it takes a lot of time and money to do all of them, especially the modeling of lots of different moving enemies. Seriously, go try to make one model of something besides an orb or a watermelon sometime. You can use Blender to get started, it's free. Follow the tutorials to make one new model for something like Skyrim and report back on how long it takes you.

That kind of production also requires a lot of different skillsets and experience, something you would expect from a big team but not a gang making a passion project in their garage.
 
K

KJ869

Member
UncleSporky said:
It's a good way to increase the amount of time people spend playing your game without needing to create more content (textures, models etc.).
Click to expand...

If you ever try to do game even for fun you qyickly learn this. Puzzles are way to give repetition and not annoy gamers as much as repeating assets and game play otherwise
 
M

Magic Mushroom

Member
thesonovabeach said:
There is nothing bright about solving puzzles. Anyone can have the skills to overcome any puzzle game (besides some culture-centered ones like in FEZ). You just need the patience to enjoy it, not brightness.
Click to expand...

I bet there are many, may people who will never complete games like Braid, The Swapper, The Witness and The Talos Principle without help.
 
Danny Dudekisser

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
I can't say I've really noticed this, though I suppose I tend to avoid games that are puzzle-focused in the first place. I just wanna jump and run, not think about shit.
 
H

Hindl

Member
Aureon said:
Puzzles generally do not include enemies to animate and combat to balance and finetune.
Click to expand...

This is true, when I was a student studying game design, it was very rare for any of us to have enemies or combat. Having artists animate and rig a full model and having developers generate the right hitboxes and make combat feel good takes time and effort that many indies simply don't have the resources for. Puzzles can offer challenge and difficulty without having to worry about the animations and ai on a box as it's dragged in the scene.
 
C

Composer

Member
PeakPointMatrix said:
Puzzles are much much cheaper to program and produce, while occupying a decent amount of playtime. Compared to the amount of dev dollars needed to create bigger and longer environment assets, including puzzles are a no-brainer.
Click to expand...

Bingo. Everyone arguing that 'AAA games are just too dumb for indie's slow burning genius' are kidding themselves. Indies are just doing the best they can with massive constraints.
 
R

redcrayon

Member
Aureon said:
To be fair, a properly formulated complex combat encounter can be seen as a puzzle. A time-sensitive, semi-randomized one, but still. Ask XCOM players about that : )

One legitimate observation, though, is that indie game developers are absolutely more comfortable with delivering much more challenging products. Puzzles only make sense if they're challenging, and that means puzzles with a reason to exist are over the challenge cutoff for AAA productions.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, I thought of that after I posted and edited this in before I saw your reply:

Often combat encounters, particularly bosses, can be puzzles too, giving that same 'light bulb goes on above head' moment when you spot the vulnerable point or work out how to survive a devastating attack.
Click to expand...

Agree on strategy games- plenty of SRPG maps are puzzles on a large scale too.

Puzzle design can be tough in that what is obvious to the designer isn't always obvious to a player that is thinking in a different way, or has been taught to try a different approach elsewhere in the game. The ones that have always bothered me are the adventure game ones where the solution is a bizarre use of an everyday item, that you only 'solve' by combining everything with everything and applying to the scenery. That's the flip side of a lone designer working on something sometimes, compared to the simplistic puzzles solved in seconds that a large playtesting team might lead a large dev team towards. Pros and cons etc, not to say that individuals can't make awesome puzzles and vice versa! :)

Games also have to deal with players, particularly in more open worlds, that may have arrived at a puzzle without everything necessary to solve it. That can be frustrating too, and I appreciate it when environmental clues let you know that it's something to return to later (like missing levers/panels) rather than a brick wall to bash your head against. It's always great to find an item and immediately think of a way you can use it to solve something you passed ages ago. The Dizzy games were often good at that stuff.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
I would have asked why there are so many with the description "rogue-like".

There are hundreds of indie games on Steam with this description, even when it doesn't apply.
 
Z

zackmorris

Member
I think puzzles can help you maximize the amount of time a person spends in an area. When you have a smaller budget, and less resources your game (generally) won't be as large (area wise) simply because of development costs. Obviously not always the case but I do think it can have a impact
 
Z

zackmorris

Member
RyanPierre said:
Have you considered the possibility that people who generally require less time to solve puzzles than others are... brighter?
Click to expand...

Not really. It's a skill, just like any other video game skill. A lot of skill in solving puzzles comes from other games with puzzles, not real world knowledge.
 
W

Weltall Zero

Member
Because by going out of your way to acquire an indie game instead of defaulting to an AAA, you're already proving to be a cultured, intelligent person who appreciates a good brain workout.
I'm only half sarcastic.
 
L

Leafhopper

Banned
Pyrrhus said:
I think this has more truth to it than most here are going to be willing to admit. Nothing wrong at all with puzzles, but when you've got no AI, no collision detection, no complex models to build and animate, and so on, well, that certainly makes it a little easier to get the game done, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

Never really thought of it that way but, there has to be some truth to it.
 
O

OldRoutes

Member
Speevy said:
I would have asked why there are so many with the description "rogue-like".

There are hundreds of indie games on Steam with this description, even when it doesn't apply.
Click to expand...

Usually roguelike would be defined as this :
Roguelike is a subgenre of role-playing video games characterized by a dungeon crawl through procedurally generated game levels, turn-based gameplay, tile-based graphics, and permanent death of the player-character.
Click to expand...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike

Procedural generation is one of the reason you'll often find this in indie games. It's often a bigger initial load to create randomly generated gameplay elements, but it also means you have more re-playability!
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
I think it's that they tend to be less purely combat-focused than modern big budget titles. We used to have a lot more varied activities in the big budget game space a decade ago, but now relatively smaller titles have taken to bring us stuff apparently deemed less valuable to success to stand out. It only hurts that there is a massive hole in funding and expertse somewhere in the middle spectrum that used to make up the mid-tier that struck a nice balance of refinement, polish, innovation, and the interest in providing something different for the number of users that might not register as large enough for the really expensive game publisher.
 
tauroxd

tauroxd

Member
Pyrrhus said:
I think this has more truth to it than most here are going to be willing to admit. Nothing wrong at all with puzzles, but when you've got no AI, no collision detection, no complex models to build and animate, and so on, well, that certainly makes it a little easier to get the game done, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

This is what I have always thought. It makes too much sense. But another reason could be that the creator(s) REALLY like puzzle.
 
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