Dr. Black Jack
Member
PREACH
This game sucks and it's entirely due to the gameplay. Time will not be kind to it.
This game sucks and it's entirely due to the gameplay. Time will not be kind to it.
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LTTP: Last of Us. Or, Misadventures with Crappy Design.
- Thread starter EatinOlives
- Start date
BobbyColtrane
Member
I echo everything you said about this game. I tried to play it multiple times cuz zomg gaf sez this is the game of the generation!
But, christ, is it overrated af!
But, christ, is it overrated af!
abstract alien
Member
I found the balancing wonky, so I never went to hard mode. For reference, I see games like Viewtiful Joe and Ikaruka as balanced.
Really? To me the gameplay was the best thing of the game. Every playthrough felt unique, which is why I beat it like 5 times.
I hope they make the maps even bigger, and random spawn points for enemies.
Lol no, while I really enjoyed TLoU's AI and gameplay, TPP completely surpasses it when it comes to that department (gameplay), it's the thing MGSV got right.
Alex_Mexico
Member
You playing Survivor on your first play through? I'm sorry but that was a terrible decision on your part.
Hard mode with Listen mode Off is the highest id ever recommend for a first play through and only to the most experienced gamers. I myself played Hard with Listen ON first and then Survivor with Listen Off (there's no option for On in that difficulty anyway).
Survivor is too stingy with resources and, unless you know the game, will end up not being fun.
Drop to Hard Mode right now.
Hard mode with Listen mode Off is the highest id ever recommend for a first play through and only to the most experienced gamers. I myself played Hard with Listen ON first and then Survivor with Listen Off (there's no option for On in that difficulty anyway).
Survivor is too stingy with resources and, unless you know the game, will end up not being fun.
Drop to Hard Mode right now.
Comfort Jones
Banned
In some ways the ai is "better" but it is absolutely not as as smartly designed. They split up, they give up way too fast, and on top of that the game does not spawn new enemies routinely when you're caught. There is no hard punishment for getting caught and often times you're given a lot of room to just run away and wait for them to stupidly split up again. I've beaten the game like 3 times including on w/e the hardest difficulty was called (Remastered version, btw). The ai is just straight up not good.
The game is incredibly shallow. It's great at making people feel like really basic combat is more intense than it is but there is not a lot of depth or smart design on show here. Lots of really good artificial shit too, like I get they want me to feel like I'm scavenging for supplies but how the fuck am I supposed to buy the idea that I can't get ammo off a guy who was literally just shooting at me more often than not? The game is just so desperate to force a certain "feeling" on you without letting it naturally come from the mechanics. It wants to have the survival elements of a game like Resident Evil but without the nonlinear design and checkpoints after every fight (sometimes even mid fight ffs).
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
It always feels like TLoU haters are trying way too hard. It's like the ultimate edgy opinion trying to downplay the game. *sigh*
It's really weird people telling them to play on normal, because I remember closer to launch any problems with the game was met with "you aren't playing the game unless it's the hardest with the hearing ability turned off". And now that consensus seems wrong?
I didn't really care for the game either OP. Ellie as an AI partner is awful. And there were multiple design choices that just sort of worked against the narrative of the game as a survival game.
I didn't really care for the game either OP. Ellie as an AI partner is awful. And there were multiple design choices that just sort of worked against the narrative of the game as a survival game.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Whatever makes you feel better about yourself I guess.
Hard with listen off IS the best way to play The Last of Us, OP just went a bit too far with Survivor.
Nappuccino
Member
I've always felt the game had some pretty great combat design. A few scenarios were a little redundant from the Uncharted games (mobile armored car with guns?), but fighting humans always felt like I won with just a scrap of health. I felt like I was surviving, so everything was exhilarating.
The original version only had Hard available at the start, Survivor was locked. Hard is what people recommend.
Now in the remaster all the modes are unlocked so someone may misinterpret old outdated PS3 recommendations for "play the hardest mode" to mean play the remaster on Survivor or Grounded which is absolutely bonkers. That would be like play Metal Gear Solid 2 on European Extreme for your first time. Don't do that.
The suburbs level is one of my favorites stages in recent games.
A bot mode would've been pretty awesome.
Alex_Mexico
Member
No it isn't m because back then when the game was new on PS3 "hard" was the highest available difficulty since A) you had to unlock Survivor and B) Grounded didn't even exist yet.
The consensus continues to be here that for an experienced gamer the best way to go through TLoU for the first time is Hard Mode with a more divided opinion on whether to use Listen Mode or not.
It just so happens that the Remastered version has both Grounded and Survivor unlocked and included from the start and thus confuses newcomers when they read old PS3 threads where people recommend starting in the highest difficulty setting which was "only" Hard.
My point was also more that playing a specific difficulty of a game with a specific mechanic turned off" is the only way to play or it doesn't really count" is dumb reasoning. But yeah, hard vs survivor is different I guess. I just played normal like with most games.
Fancy Clown
Member
Hard was a bit too easy imo, but yea it might be a better starting point than survivor.
Can't get behind the complaints though. The survival horror scarcity of ammo thrown into a TPS action/lite-stealth hybrid that flows seemlessly and with perfect feedback and animations made every fight incredibly intense and satisfying to get through. The levels were pretty well designed too, with a lot of different ways you can take on encounters. Never felt cheap to me, and the AI is well above average for an action game.
Can't get behind the complaints though. The survival horror scarcity of ammo thrown into a TPS action/lite-stealth hybrid that flows seemlessly and with perfect feedback and animations made every fight incredibly intense and satisfying to get through. The levels were pretty well designed too, with a lot of different ways you can take on encounters. Never felt cheap to me, and the AI is well above average for an action game.
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
I...
Excuse me? One of Uncharted 4's biggest weaknesses is it's horrendous pacing. TLoU constantly has you in different situations, including even switching characters at one point, and just before it starts to drag on the game ends. Uncharted 4 on the other hand is just automated climbing after automated climbing with a repetitious gunfight peppered here and there (that are unavoidable, unlike TLoU). Plus at 17 hours, the game is just too long. That's not even mentioning the terrible characters (Sam Drake) and shit story in Uncharted 4, two areas TLoU excelled at.
Naughty Dog took a massive step backwards going from Last of Us to Uncharted 4.
Well above average is even selling it short, The Last of Us straight up has the best enemy AI I've seen since F.E.A.R.
But people like to shit on the AI with Ellie bouncing around and "muh immersion"
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Did something fuck up in the port over to PS4?
I don't remember my PS3 playthroughs having any major issues or bug outs. I played through at least 3 times on PS3.
I don't remember my PS3 playthroughs having any major issues or bug outs. I played through at least 3 times on PS3.
Lol, we're talking about different parts.
I never had much trouble with that bit, either. It's quickly evident the sniper is invulnerable within the game's logic. Then you just work around it.
psychotron
Member
This game is a completely different experience depending on difficulty. Played normal first, then the hardest difficulty. Then I played grounded on the remaster, and it was the most satisfying.
Human AI is a mess in last of us no matter what difficulty u are playing on. Making you weak doesnt make an AI smart.
Joel is a one note psychopath who develops a completely predictable affection for his replacement child. I am completely incapable of forming any kind of emotional bond with a guy who treats the people in his life, even his own brother, as disposable resources.
The people around him? The occasional travelers he picks up? Bill? Marlene? Ellie? They're pretty good, but Joel just stands there, this hollow shell who alternates between being a violent nut and inevitably becoming a gruff father figure to his sassy teenage sidekick. I just can't tune Joel out because this game is Joel's story when it should be Ellie's.
TLOU's only novelty as a story is that it doesn't outright condone the protagonist for being a violent shithead. Otherwise it breaks no grounds in interactive storytelling. It is, at best, a passable movie, and even the only reason it gets praised is because the standard of video game writing is so remedial that a game that tries super hard to be a movie comes off far more advanced than it actually is.
While I loved the game I find the opposite. How dare someone saying bad things of a naughty dog game.
I will never understand why some people jump to the hardest difficulty first playthrough. To each their own, but most games are designed with Normal difficulty in mind. The timing, pacing, flow of the game is calibrated to that difficulty. Hard kicks it up a notch, and lets more experienced players get that extra bit of challenge, but it's still within reasonable perimeters as far as flow and pacing. Anything higher than "Hard" difficulty are the developers saying, "Have fun with this jacked mode. It's not ideal in any way, but we know some of you guys like a crazy difficulty curve." Most devs hope you play through on Normal or Hard first time through, then tackle the harder difficulties once you're familiar with the game and its design.
I pretty much start games on Normal, then on subsequent playthroughs, I'll play on a harder difficulty. Replaying the Uncharted Collection on PS4, I just started with Crushing (wait, was Crushing unlocked from the start? I can't remember. I thought it was...), because I had beaten that game so many times, the harder difficulties weren't too much of a problem (although, man, there were some sections in Uncharted 1 on Crushing that are fucking infuriating).
I've just found over the years that, for me personally, playing a game on the most maximum difficulty is more frustrating than enjoyable for a first time playthrough, and can really sour you on a game. I thought The Last of Us was superbly designed. I think the gameplay is tight and well balanced. I wouldn't have jumped on Survivor difficulty for my first every playthrough, though. Granted, I first played it on PS3, and Survivor was locked until you beat the game once. I guess they figured that a lot of people buying the PS4 version may be folks upgrading from the PS3 version, and would maybe want to tackle Survivor right away. I've toyed with the idea of replaying it on Survivor, but my backlog is keeping me from it at the moment. Trying to clear some games off of that list before I revisit titles I've beaten already.
I pretty much start games on Normal, then on subsequent playthroughs, I'll play on a harder difficulty. Replaying the Uncharted Collection on PS4, I just started with Crushing (wait, was Crushing unlocked from the start? I can't remember. I thought it was...), because I had beaten that game so many times, the harder difficulties weren't too much of a problem (although, man, there were some sections in Uncharted 1 on Crushing that are fucking infuriating).
I've just found over the years that, for me personally, playing a game on the most maximum difficulty is more frustrating than enjoyable for a first time playthrough, and can really sour you on a game. I thought The Last of Us was superbly designed. I think the gameplay is tight and well balanced. I wouldn't have jumped on Survivor difficulty for my first every playthrough, though. Granted, I first played it on PS3, and Survivor was locked until you beat the game once. I guess they figured that a lot of people buying the PS4 version may be folks upgrading from the PS3 version, and would maybe want to tackle Survivor right away. I've toyed with the idea of replaying it on Survivor, but my backlog is keeping me from it at the moment. Trying to clear some games off of that list before I revisit titles I've beaten already.
The gameplay in The Last of Us is incredibly overrated. And you are right, it absolutely breaks on higher difficulty. The "challenge" is figuring out the arbitrary encounter rules for each fight, as you've well discovered yourself. Some encounters, you can stealth through. Others require you to eliminate everyone. Others require you to eliminate a particular set to advance, and then get to a checkpoint. None of this is a given. On higher difficulties th game leads to you thinking you can experiment with tactics, but that's not really the case, it's an incredibly scripted game that hides this fact very well on easier difficulties.
Thankfully, infected encounters are much better (because their AI is as simple as "Eh? KILL!"), but it's still nothing to right home about.
That, and the awful, awful pacing of the "let's push this box over here for 15 minutes, Ellie" really killed my enjoyment.
Luckily, the story is really, really good.
Thankfully, infected encounters are much better (because their AI is as simple as "Eh? KILL!"), but it's still nothing to right home about.
That, and the awful, awful pacing of the "let's push this box over here for 15 minutes, Ellie" really killed my enjoyment.
Luckily, the story is really, really good.
I'm not even sure there's 15 minutes of combined total gameplay of pushing boxes/palettes in the entire game, but man you guys are really good at making it out like those parts take up half the fucking game.
It was an exaggeration, of course. It just feels like it happens every five minutes.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
when they're crawling over a brown dirt road in a bluish grey sneaking suit, i bet i wouldn't.
i was being way more careful in mgsv until i realised that all enemies have serious problems with their eyesight.
dr_rus
Member
I've said many times that I didn't like the gameplay at all as I found it regularly immersion breaking, cheap Splinter Cell knock-off. Things get a little bit better when you're getting a shotgun since at that point you're not forced to sneak all the time and can just go in guns blazing but still, I found the gameplay generally lacking.
The story and the atmosphere are making up for that though. So I still consider the game great despite my general dislike of its gameplay.
And yeah, I'm a fan of Uncharted series as well.
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
.....? I just spent a whole post dragging that mess Uncharted 4 just a couple posts above you bruh. Naughty Dog is far from perfect, not all of us are drinking their Kool-Aid.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yeah that's always such a dumb complaint. I'll gladly take mild aesthetic irritant over having my stealth state broken because of an AI. Uncharted 4 polished it further to the point where I pretty much wasn't even aware of my AI companion during stealth unless they killed a guy for me.
RadarScope1
Member
It ain't a stealth game.
Robot Pants
Member
I was reeeeeallly hoping the first post was gonna be "git gud"
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Can you imagine if the AI did reveal you?
"Oh muh God, I can't stand this AI giving away my position constantly."
They probably shouldn't have based the entire story around Joel's relationship with a character who is a complete non-entity when we actually play the game, then.
RE4 did this a decade prior. Ashley was a factor in how you played the game, and even at her most annoying she still felt like she was there. Ico is entirely about the relationship between the lead and a mute lump of meat whose only use is opening doors and somehow it's one of gaming's greatest artistic achievements.
Like, why not have some kind of character swap mechanic? Both Joel and Ellie could play important roles in gameplay, Ellie gets more focus, and at this point the idea of your AI partner having zero presence almost feels like an acceptable sacrifice.
SystemUser
Member
About a third of the way through Viewtiful Joe I had to start over in "Kids" mode, because I found "Normal" mode frustrating. I played through TLoU on normal and didn't think there were any hard parts in the game. I felt like I cheated since my inventory always seemed to be topped off and I had to pass up some items.
Beerman462
Member
My favorite moments were when stealth failed. Especially the first clicker encounter. Kill a couple infected and then the clickers agro so I'm grabbing melee weapons on the ground and climbing/backing away and end up killing them all.
The game rewards aggressive play
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Can't say I can relate to the OP at all. My first playthrough was on hard and I had a great time. After that, I played the game on Grounded and it was even better. I love the mix of stealth and action. I never got stuck or felt like the game was cheap. Hell, my brother played his first playthrough on Survivor without much of an issue and that was his first console shooter since Gears of War 2 in 2008...
RE4 is not a stealth game at all, so there's no issue with the AI getting spotted and fucking up your plan. Furthermore, Ashley plays a completely different role; she's defenceless and you have to actively protect her at all times. This is not what they were going for with Ellie, who's perfectly capable on her own.
Adding a character swap mechanism would completely change the dynamics of the gameplay; it's a pretty big "why not" you've got there.
RE4 is not a stealth game at all, so there's no issue with the AI getting spotted and fucking up your plan. Furthermore, Ashley plays a completely different role; she's defenceless and you have to actively protect her at all times. This is not what they were going for with Ellie, who's perfectly capable on her own.
Adding a character swap mechanism would completely change the dynamics of the gameplay; it's a pretty big "why not" you've got there.
KiefbladeMaster
Member
Didn't think this many people had issue with the gameplay; it was one of the best parts of the game for me. I spent a lot of time in MP because of it and also beat it on three difficulties.
I know acknowledging that a game can be improved is difficult, but I'm sure you can find the strength to overcome.
I am aware that the story insists that Ellie is capable (also Winter is fucking awesome and Ellie should have remained the lead from then on, holy shit), it's just that her time as an AI partner saddles her with a complete lack of impact on the game's proceeding, the way other games have overcome.
Ellie isn't just an annoying fixture the way Ashley or Yorda could be, she might as well not be there at all when you actually play the game.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Op , I also found the gameplay of TLOU to be mediocre, the presentation, characters and pace are top tier for videogames, didn't really care much for the overarching story tho. Overall I'm glad I played it but it was forgettable in the end for me.