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So at what point did Anakin go from "The Jedi are evil" to "I guess I'm evil now"

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Principate

Saint Titanfall
Yep. Total retconning bullshit. I hate it.

TBF He was probabaly talking about Anakin during the The Clone Wars and in the cartoon he actually was both those things, as well as competant in general. Let's also not forget this was a retcon within the OT itself, Vader was hardly the best star pilot in the Galaxy because he wasn't even Anakin yet.
 
That's the problem of Star Wars, trying to show how someone would be *fantasy evil*.

Star Wars is fantasy, more exactly it uses the classic good vs evil, which if you examine it closely it doesn't hold up why the bad guys ones are evil, you know, megalomaniac unrepentant lords of evil like, just because.
It's something best avoided, because in truth, it won't ever make sense, fantasy genre isn't famous for a realistic internal consistency.

So the idea of the prequels showing exactly how it worked was bad, because it was already senseless in the original films.
 
This.

We know that the dark side corrupts and turns you into something twisted, but the person is still the person. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are way too disconnected, and feel more like split personalities than two sides of the same coin.

It doesn't help that we see only a glimpse of Darth Vader in the prequels, near the end of the 3rd film. Anakin should have been established as a Jedi in the first film (with seeds of evil), his fall occurring in the second film, and the fallout from his transition in the 3rd film - fall of the Jedi council, his extermination of nearly all of the top council members and the retrieval of Jedi records (to be used to track down any remaining Jedi by himself, personally), and, of course, his transition to the suit we know and love.

Perhaps the films should have been longer if they also wanted to weave the rise of Palpatine and the fall of the Republic into the narrative (it seems weird that Palpatine kept the Senate in place for 20 years after he became emperor.)

I couldn't agree more. I have always thought this. We didn't need to see young Anakin to know he was a gifted Jedi.
 

Kuros

Member
His whole turn was stupid.

"Don't worry Anny I have the power to save your wife."

Turns

"Ah soz, was telling porkies about that don't know how actually"

Anakin should have chopped his head off right there. Ludicrous.
 

Guy.brush

Member
the whole pacing is dumb, obi-wan is seen as some weird hippy kook that practicies some dead hocus pocus, yet the jedi were controlling most of the known galaxy about thirty years ago. so stupid.

Yeah the timing never made sense.
The main crux are the Skywalker twins that force the need for Anakin's fall happening approx. 18-20 years prior to ANH.
Obi Wan only being 56 in New Hope doesn't help.

They should have found a solution for Anakin and Obi Wan's Jedi adventures to have been like 50-60 years ago, that would have been a lot more plausible.
But then, how can Luke be his son?
 
Yeah the timing never made sense.
The main crux are the Skywalker twins that force the need for Anakin's fall happening approx. 18-20 years prior to ANH.
Obi Wan only being 56 in New Hope doesn't help.

They should have found a solution for Anakin and Obi Wan's Jedi adventures to have been like 50-60 years ago, that would have been a lot more plausible.
But then, how can Luke be his son?

As RLM said, Obi-wan and Qui-gon needed to be a single character in the prequels, called Obi-wan Kenobi.
 

Guy.brush

Member
As RLM said, Obi-wan and Qui-gon needed to be a single character in the prequels, called Obi-wan Kenobi.

Yes that would have been a start, still
"your sad devotion to that ancient religion" mumbojumbo in ANH is a bit of a stretch when the Jedi ruled the Republic just 20 years ago.
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
I couldn't agree more. I have always thought this. We didn't need to see young Anakin to know he was a gifted Jedi.

Anakin didn't need to be a Jedi in Episode 1, he just needed to be older so he could have some actual development and meaningful interaction with the other characters. Obi, Anakin and Padme should have been the Han, Luke and Leia of the PT but the Anakin's age makes their relationship so awkward. If Anakin and Padme had both been 17 we could have got a nice little trio going with a love triangle as Obi and Anakin compete for Padme's affection. Instead we get a 10 year old kid asking dumb questions for a whole movie and are asked to believe that the teenaged Queen of Naboo spends a decade pining for him.

Yes that would have been a start, still
"your sad devotion to that ancient religion" mumbojumbo in ANH is a bit of a stretch when the Jedi ruled the Republic just 20 years ago.

That line can easily be waved away if you consider the officer to be talking about the Sith when he is mocking Vader.
 

The Adder

Banned
When he murdered the kids. He went from "anything to do what's right" to "what I want to do is right" to "anything to do what I want."
 

16BitNova

Member
I would say around the time he killed Mace Windu. I mean, he always had that evil urge in him I think. Like he would use it om impulse during battle or to better his opponents.

But, once he killed Mace (because he wanted Palpatine for his powers to save Padme) I think he realized "well shit, there is no going back from this now"
 

DrArchon

Member
His whole turn was stupid.

"Don't worry Anny I have the power to save your wife."

Turns

"Ah soz, was telling porkies about that don't know how actually"

Anakin should have chopped his head off right there. Ludicrous.

That part really gets me. It's like, Palpatine just admitted that he lied to Anakin about knowing how to save Padme, and he doesn't even blink. He should be fucking outraged!
 

mrkgoo

Member
He had his initial suspicions but didn't believe that the jedi were 100% evil until he killed Mace Windu because his mind probably needed something to justify his actions. Based on his plan to overthrow Palpatine he was still aware that Palpatine was still evil so he probably assumed that he was the only uncorrupted person left but couldn't do anything to change it until he got more power.

That's a cool idea - to have anakin sort of know palpatine is evil but going along with it in the hopes either he can change him or overthrew him. And over the course of time sort of just filling the role of evil right hand dude and forgetting his aims.

Until luke shows up.

Of course, the movies never hint at anything like this and that's why they fail.

It really wouldn't have taken much. A conversation with him and obi wan, for example. Or yoga. Speaking anonymously for example,"hey master what would one do if the tactics someone uses are wrong but achieve a higher good?" Or "what if you sense there is good in someone - do you try to change them?"

So many ways the prequels could've easily been made ten times better
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
The sad thing is that the turn scene in the movie is the result of panicked reshoots, rewrites and editing after the original rough cut version was poorly received. I believe there's a quote from Lucas where he says the turn scene is the only one he didn't think through properly.
 

Kuros

Member
The sad thing is that the turn scene in the movie is the result of panicked reshoots, rewrites and editing after the original rough cut version was poorly received. I believe there's a quote from Lucas where he says the turn scene is the only one he didn't think through properly.

Absolutely barmy. It's the whole reason the prequels exist and he didn't think it through properly.

I really really wish we could have a do over. But it'll never happen.
 

mrkgoo

Member
The sad thing is that the turn scene in the movie is the result of panicked reshoots, rewrites and editing after the original rough cut version was poorly received. I believe there's a quote from Lucas where he says the turn scene is the only one he didn't think through properly.

Which is so infinitely ridiculous because it's THE main purpose for the prequels.
 

Crossing Eden

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Did you ever hear?
 

Herne

Member
I'm pretty sure Lucas said that when Yoda tells Anakin to learn to let go, Yoda understands that Anakin has made a big decision in that moment, but doesn't know what. That might be it?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I find it disappointing that the process of falling to the dark side is apparently typified by succumbing to childish temper tantrums.

Even TFA was forced to continue this, in the form of Kylo Ren.

That's not "evil". That's teenage angst.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
There's no reconciling his character at the end of Episode 3 with the way Darth Vader acts at the beginning of Episode 4.

Pretty much Anakin by the end of the clone wars felt like a lot more natural progression, he was a hardened general thatt had become disillusioned by the Jedi as a whole, (who were for a group spirtual monks extremely political and militaristic). Would have made more sense that after one last betrayal he decided that things needed to change and started to think more independentaly and following his own ideals eventually being seduced and played by the emperor after attempting to become top dog.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
I don't think Anakin ever becomes aware that he is "evil" I think he's just so convinced that what he's doing is right and everyone else who thinks otherwise is just absolutely wrong so they must be purged.

He doesn't see right and wrong anymore, he only sees his way and everyone else trying to fuck up his way, this plus the fact that he feels like everyone has left him behind or completely abandoned him lead him to where he is before the original saga.

I find it disappointing that the process of falling to the dark side is apparently typified by succumbing to childish temper tantrums.

Even TFA was forced to continue this, in the form of Kylo Ren.

That's not "evil". That's teenage angst.

The Dark side kind of functions like the one ring, it lures you in with temptations of incredible power and when it has you it forces you to think of only yourself and your ambitions and to discard everyone else that you cant gain any power from. So with that in mind it's easy to see why people who are in the process of falling to the dark side would act like angsty teenagers where only what they want matters and when they don't get what they want they get angry.
 
The clone wars should have been about cloning the Jedi who had at that point dwindled to no more than a handful. Not the random behind the scenes creation of a secret Boba Fett army to be supplemented by a metric fuckton of jedi warriors. Everything in the prequels is bizarro world so it makes perfect sense that anakin's fall would also contradict every thing said about him in the canon. Don't get me started on how the conversation between luke and Leia doesn't make any sense with padme dying during childbirth.
 

Moff

Member
the whole "the jedi are evil" was an incredibly dumb angle that never made sense
the sith do not believe in good and evil, they believe in strong and weak, they are fascists.

in the OT vaders tries to sell the dark side to luke with it's power, not with tales about how much good was done with it.
yoda warns luke about the dark because it's power is seducing

prequel anakin is such a goddamn stupid, whiney brat.
 
The clone wars should have been about cloning the Jedi who had at that point dwindled to no more than a handful. Not the random behind the scenes creation of a secret Boba Fett army to be supplemented by a metric fuckton of jedi warriors. Everything in the prequels is bizarro world so it makes perfect sense that anakin's fall would also contradict every thing said about him in the canon. Don't get me started on how the conversation between luke and Leia doesn't make any sense with padme dying during childbirth.

I used to have issues with that specific thing in the past, but someone explained it away as force visions.
 

Kuros

Member
The clone wars should have been about cloning the Jedi who had at that point dwindled to no more than a handful. Not the random behind the scenes creation of a secret Boba Fett army to be supplemented by a metric fuckton of jedi warriors. Everything in the prequels is bizarro world so it makes perfect sense that anakin's fall would also contradict every thing said about him in the canon. Don't get me started on how the conversation between luke and Leia doesn't make any sense with padme dying during childbirth.

It's fairly clear Lucas either didn't watch his own fucking movies while writing the prequels. Or more likely didn't give a shit.

The amount of retcons is ludicrous. Anakin being too young in ROTS compared to his appearance in Jedi. Leia remembering her mother. "Already a great pilot" etc.
 
I used to have issues with that specific thing in the past, but someone explained it away as force visions.
That's head canon and is bullshit. We are only ever shown visions of the future in the movies, not the past. And that wouldn't explain why Leia is the only one to have them when she's completely untrained. They also describe them as memories like two normal long lost siblings would describe them. Luke and Leia should have been born sometime before Anakin's final fall from grace. But padme hides Leia from him because he has a vision that his daughter will rise up against him and he's super paranoid. Instead padme says look you have a son, your vision was wrong. Boom.
 
Another stupid thing was Anakin acting like the world was ending when Mace told him Palatine couldn't stand trial and yet at the beginning of the movie Palpatind told Anakin to do the same thing to Dooku and that dude didn't even have hands
 
That's head canon and is bullshit. We are only ever shown visions of the future in the movies, not the past. And that wouldn't explain why Leia is the only one to have them when she's completely untrained. They also describe them as memories like two normal long lost siblings would describe them. Luke and Leia should have been born sometime before Anakin's final fall from grace. But padme hides Leia from him because he has a vision that his daughter will rise up against him and he's super paranoid. Instead padme says look you have a son, your vision was wrong. Boom.

Literally from Yoda in ESB: "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."
 
Ehh... but Tatooine is on the outskirts controlled by the Hutts. They probably didn't see a lot of Jedi, nor much of the clone wars at all. It makes sense that the people out there would be disassociated with them.
That's funny cos every Tusken Raider knew about the Jedi, and so did Jabba, and so did Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

Problem is the amount of traffic going through Tatoonie and judging by the alien composition of the Mos Eisley Bar, there was a lot of it, shit spreads fast.
 
Yeah, the idea that Han Solo doesn't believe in the force makes no sense when you figure that less than 2 decades before ANH there was a galaxy spanning war where the Jedi were central figures in.

Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you just ignore the prequels.

Oh look, a prequel basher that doesn't know Star Wars.

Han always had little reason to doubt the Force:

Obi-Wan Kenobi said:
For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.

Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you look at Star Wars as a whole.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Oh look, a prequel basher that doesn't know Star Wars.

Han always had little reason to doubt the Force:



Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you look at Star Wars as a whole.

Not seeing how this contradicts what he said. The Clone Wars are depicted as a major galaxy-spanning conflict routinely reported on in the media, with Jedi generals mentioned by name and widely known by the public. Then 20 years later Han Solo, who would have been alive during the Clone Wars, and old enough to remember them, doesn't believe the Jedi were a thing. It doesn't fit, and it's a relic of the original timeline from the first movie in which the Clone Wars were closer to 40 years before Luke leaves Tatooine, and Obi-Wan and Anakin were not only older than depicted in the prequels but roughly the same age as one another. Just more sloppy writing, really.
 
Not seeing how this contradicts what he said. The Clone Wars are depicted as a major galaxy-spanning conflict routinely reported on in the media, with Jedi generals mentioned by name and widely known by the public. Then 20 years later Han Solo, who would have been alive during the Clone Wars, and old enough to remember them, doesn't believe the Jedi were a thing. It doesn't fit, and it's a relic of the original timeline from the first movie in which the Clone Wars were closer to 40 years before Luke leaves Tatooine, and Obi-Wan and Anakin were not only older than depicted in the prequels but roughly the same age as one another. Just more sloppy writing, really.
Nobody knew about alcohol consumption because of Prohibition, amirite?
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
He's an idealist + egotist. He wants everything to go his way, the right way, and is willing to use his Jedi powers to make things go his way.

He expresses frustration at the Senate for all the political maneuvering that keeps them from getting things done. He'd rather see a strong leader with the proper ideals take control and make people fall in line than all the discord sown by people in the democracy game for their own personal gain.

And he's also afraid of loss thanks to his mommy issues, meaning he takes personal responsibility for everyone and everything around him, which is what drives him to become such a powerful Jedi and decorated warrior. You can see this from the moment he discovers Qui-Gon is a Jedi, since he apparently believes it's the job of a Jedi to fix absolutely everything, even slavery.

When the Jedi are revealed to be just as susceptible to shady backroom dealings as the Senate, and particularly when their advice to him in his time of [perceived] need is [perceived by him as] less than helpful, his loyalty to them dissolves. He then turns to the person who he believes is actually willing to help him: Palpatine.

It's at this moment, when he trust Palpatine completely, that Palpatine reveals that he's actually the Sith Lord the Jedi have been looking for. Anakin knows he should turn him in, but when desperation seizes him, he's willing to turn his back on his Jedi duty based on the splinter of hope Palpatine is offering him - he already doesn't trust the Jedi anyway and knows he'll be thrown out for revealing his relationship with his wife, and at least Palpatine is offering to help... right?

It's in that moment of weakness that he decides to kill Mace to rescue Palpatine, taking the step beyond the point of no return as far as his relationship with the Jedi is concerned. And with nothing more tethering him to the Jedi and their code, in this incredibly vulnerable and broken and desperate state, he's willing to be persuaded to do anything to cling to the one thing he has left - Padme - because he can't bear to lose the last person he believes is on his side.

Meanwhile, Palpatine is also promising him that they'll be able to rid the galaxy of corruption and finally restore peace. It's something he was already in favor of anyway, but now he gets to be the hammer that crushes all the things he felt were getting in the way of his ambition for a better universe - including the Jedi.

And then Obi-Wan, his best friend, turns on him - and, from his point of view, turns Padme against him. Now it's not just that the Jedi make him uncomfortable or are obstacles to his ambitions - his best friend has taken the only thing he cares about from him.

Anakin became evil because all his reasons for being good were stripped away from him, one by one, and he was given reasons (naturally, false machinations orchestrated by Palpatine) to hate everything he ever cared about.

Best description yet.

Here's one thing some people miss though: As late as Empire Strikes Back, Vader has plans to usurp Palpatine. "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny!"

At this point he knows Palpatine is just as corrupt as the republic he put down. Vader probably has plans to become the benevolent dictator he thinks he is with Luke at his side.
 

Aselith

Member
But I understand his logic here. He saw his apprentice forced out of the Jedi for a stupid reason. He saw Mace try to take the law into his own hands. As well as years and years of stupid decisions that didn't seem to be fully in the right.

So he comes to the conclusion that Jedi are "evil" and need purged from the galaxy. Yes, killing children is terrible, but it's one of Anakin's 'For the greater good" moments.

However, at some point killing regular citizens/civilians became okay in order to get to the Jedi. This is where I'm getting stuck.

He killed Mace for the selfish reason that he wanted to save Padme from dying AND Mace wasn't taking the law into his own hands. He was lawfully arresting a traitor to the Senate.
 
It's quite simple:

- Anakin has visions of Padme dying.
- Anakin is obsessed with trying to save everyone and be the hero. He's obsessed with saving Padme.
- Anakin learns that there is potentially a way to save Padme. The Jedi would forbid it but Palpatine and the Sith would allow it.
- He's conflicted for a short period of time.
- Anakin finally makes a decision and goes with Palpatine. He considers the Jedi not utilizing the full power of the Force to save those they care about as wrong.
Yadda Yadda Yadda
- Anakin kills children.

The idea works in theory but the execution is a complete mess.



That's part of it: There's also a part in Episode 2:


- Anakin has visions of his mom in pain.
- Anakin tries to rescue her but ultimately, she dies in his hands.
- In a fit of rage, he kills the sand people like "Animals"
- Says he's got power but keeps wanting more, to save people.

Episode 3:

- Anakin has visions of Padme dying.
- Anakin is obsessed with trying to save everyone and be the hero. He's obsessed with saving Padme.
- Anakin learns that there is potentially a way to save Padme. The Jedi would forbid it but Palpatine and the Sith would allow it.
- He's conflicted for a short period of time.
- Anakin finally makes a decision and goes with Palpatine. He considers the Jedi not utilizing the full power of the Force to save those they care about as wrong.
Yadda Yadda Yadda
- Anakin kills children.

That's the ark basically and done in a poor and ham-fisted way.
 

Gravidee

Member
Not seeing how this contradicts what he said. The Clone Wars are depicted as a major galaxy-spanning conflict routinely reported on in the media, with Jedi generals mentioned by name and widely known by the public. Then 20 years later Han Solo, who would have been alive during the Clone Wars, and old enough to remember them, doesn't believe the Jedi were a thing. It doesn't fit, and it's a relic of the original timeline from the first movie in which the Clone Wars were closer to 40 years before Luke leaves Tatooine, and Obi-Wan and Anakin were not only older than depicted in the prequels but roughly the same age as one another. Just more sloppy writing, really.

He could have known about Jedi and their abilities, but it doesn't mean that he believes that they can do those things or in the force in general. Han was probably the type of guy where the only way to convince him of anything like the force was to actively show it to him and apply it to situations where there would be no doubt that something more than a cheap trick was being used.
 
It doesn't fit, and it's a relic of the original timeline from the first movie in which the Clone Wars were closer to 40 years before Luke leaves Tatooine, and Obi-Wan and Anakin were not only older than depicted in the prequels but roughly the same age as one another. Just more sloppy writing, really.

And which movie messed up the original dating of the Clone Wars? Hint: it wasn't a prequel.
 
I was always of the belief that after the chaos lf the Clone Wars the empire brought peace to the Galaxy on a wide scale. There are no more galactic war and Vader personally sees to ensuring this peace.
 

DavidDesu

Member
Anakin's character was so poorly done I just try not to think about it anymore. When I see Darth Vader I simply can't envisage that version of Anakin as being the guy in the suit. It was the key weakness of the prequels above all else. The whole point of these films and they totally fucked it.

I saw a more realistic form of conflict in a couple of Adam Drivers scenes as Kylo Ren than anything we got in the prequels. The sand people scene where his mum dies would have been great if Anakin had been played by a different actor or actually had it written and directed by someone beside Lucas.
 
Short answer - Lucas is a shit writer.

Long answer - Lucas has the writing skills of 14 year old first time fanfic writer who still doesn't understand that to get from point A to C you kinda have to show B, or at the very least heavily imply it.

Answer is on first page people.
This should end the thread.
 
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