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encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

Somewhere during the tumultuous development of FFXV, hands changed, ideas were reworked, and we waited, anticipating Tabata's new vision for what was once FFXIII Versus. The 2013 trailer, which initially blew people away and brought back a lot of goodwill to Square-Enix, was no longer canon. And so we continued dissecting various Versus, Nomura's XV, and Tabata's XV, trying to make sense of what was kept, what was changed, and what was new.

There were two iterations of the Dawn trailer, which felt like more of a teaser and barely showed anything at all. But not to fear, there would be the uncovered event, in which we were showed us how Square reworked the beginning of the game ... and a lot of gameplay. It was like unveiling the game for the first time ... for the third time. But that was fine, because surely there would be a big story blow out at E3 ... Where we were met with the Afrojack trailer, which was almost entirely gameplay. And now the Gamescom 50 min video ... which was also 90% gameplay, and a few scenes here and there. There's rumored to be a trailer that was pushed back to TGS.

So where is the story trailer? Where is our big story moment? Where do we begin to see the basic plot of the game that's not limited to a handful of lines and minor cutscenes here and there? It's been suggested again and again that Square might not want to show the story for fear of "spoilers." This would be the strictest definition of "spoiler" I have ever heard. Not every single thing that happens within a story is a "spoiler." And generally FF has been able to show itself off, without giving away the entire game. Even scenes that should constitute a surprise can be placed out of context and carefully edited to conceal their weight from a potential player.

Like FFVIII. Or FFIX. FFX.

Are the garden fights a spoiler? Is Alexander a spoiler? Are the battles with Sin a spoiler? Since FFVII (perhaps even FFVI), the series has established itself as one of spectacle. It's placed an incredible amount of emphasis on its storytelling, and whether you think it merits it or otherwise, the stories its told have grabbed people. And I can't imagine the company making a deliberate attempt to avoid showing absolutely anything that happened in XV, for fear of it constituting a "spoiler." In the last game Tabata directed, a trailer showcased a major character death scene that takes place in the last hour of the game. So why would Square show us almost nothing that happens in the game?

Could it be ... that FFXV is simply uneventful? Are vast expanses, cities, and minor dialogue between characters from location to location almost all the game has to offer?

It's no coincidence that people look back longingly at Versus. Gameplay is only half of what a Final Fantasy has to offer. Where Versus trailers showed us drama and spectacle, Tabata's XV has shown nothing to fill that void. We've been shown the journey. The destinations, less so.

Both FFXII and FFXIII share a long stretch of gameplay in their latter half that are relatively uninterrupted by story events. For FFXII, it's the journey to Archades. For FFXIII, it's Gran Pulse. But the journeys are hardly rewarded. In FFXII, we grit and bear our teeth at Cid because he's involved with dangerous weapons, before he fucks off to Giruvegan. In XIII, information is almost arbitrarily given to the player (I can't recall what information that is), before the heroes are carted off back to Coccoon to finish the game. Both times I wondered what that long and arduous journey was for.

See you in November.

Falk · Aug 21, 2016

Quick interjection here: Because I suspect leaks/rumors/w.e. from 4chan and elsewhere are inevitably going to be brought up in this thread, I'd like to request that anything from any batch be spoiler tagged, regardless of whether you think media (trailers, the Gamescom showing, Kingsglaive, Brotherhood, etc.) has debunked them or not.

Tabata has gone on record w.r.t the rumors/leaks that none of them have gotten it all right, so with that non-absolute in mind, viewer discretion advised, etc.

Happy discussion.

edit: Also obviously as Kingsglaive isn't widely available i.e. digital distro, do your bros a favor and spoiler tag any Kingsglaive-related story, too. Thanks!

Manabanana · Aug 21, 2016

If they want it to be a surprise for players, I'm fine with that. They don't seem to have any problem generating interest otherwise.

thesonovabeach · Aug 21, 2016

This post made my Metal Gear Solid V PTSD come back hard.

Ishida · Aug 21, 2016

This game is going to be massive. Of course they are not showing everything.

As I said in the other thread, we already know of Ravus Nox Fleuret. But he hasn't been shown in a single trailer. We also haven't even seen Ideaolas' In-game model. What about the other summons and their locations and storyline portions?

Square will not show everything this game will contain. I'm willing to bet that we have been shown less than 20% of all the story and events.

RawNuts · Aug 21, 2016

Bro, it's right there in the shot you posted.

The overarching goal is to go to the moon.

Inuhanyou · Aug 21, 2016

I've heard the game is pretty straight forward as a concept. I don't expect any major ballsy twists or huge crazy plot revelations that will fuck my mind up.

That being said, there is something to be gained for playing through a story yourself an experiencing the journey and the story for one's self. You say a story trailer would not hurt the mystique of the game, but then not having a story trailer would probably make more sense for anticipation factor, isn't that right?

THey want you to experience the game they've made and have a sense of wonder that you would not have knowing what's coming, and i'm glad they are trying to keep it under wraps.

Mailbox · Aug 21, 2016

Or you know, the trailers you posted are Commericals for game products where the only truly tv-appropriate footage to show was form CG cutscenes, all of which were plot important.

We already know a ton of lore for the game already, Like the crystal, the Astreals, the royal arms, the Plague of the Stars, Luna being an "oracle" (which is tied to the Plague of the Stars, and the inclusion of gods.

There is a bunch there and all of it seems very plot related. Just because we haven't seen too much late game stuff, like those commercials spoil outright (seriously some of those cutscenes in the ff9 trailer are REALLY late game stuff), doesn't mean FF15 is eventless.

Wait closer to release for a TV CM, then if we don't know anything about the plot, complain.

Toparaman · Aug 21, 2016

If there's anyone here who could tell you whether or not FFXV is thin on story, they wouldn't, because it would likely mean losing their jobs.

Even the 4chan leaks only give a broad overview of key plot points. Whether those points comprise the entire narrative is unknown.

sappyday · Aug 21, 2016

If we had a rough idea of how many chapters there were in the game then it would ease some worry. In the 50 minute video we went through 3 chapters relatively fast. That video is edited down but journalist have said it took them like 3-4 hours to reach Lestallum. I forget the exact number Tabata said it would take to get through the main story but I think it was something along 40-50 hours. That would mean at the very least there is 15 chapters, probably 20, very small chance more than 20.

Thanks to Koozek, we know there are at least 5 major cities/areas (just like how it was in Versus).

Lucis - Major city being Insomnia where our main characters reside.

These are the territories that belong to Lucis which include Lestallum, another city but not big enough to be considered one of the major ones. This is the starter area and it's actually pretty huge in itself cause the Duscae demo is very small compared to all of it.

Accordo - One major city being Altissia

We have no idea how big the areas around it are.

Niflhiem - No clue as to how it looks but it could be this area from the E3 trailer

(Credit: Koozek)

Tenebrea -

Again, we have no idea how big this area is and if it's just the name of the city or the piece of land that includes the city in it like with Lucis

Solhiem - a place we didn't even think was still in the game but the pamphlet confirms it.

This is the presumed world map. As you can see the starter area isn't that big compared to the rest of it. The map in the 52 minute videos fits pretty much 1:1 with this one so it's safe to say it's an accurate representation of the entire map.

Most of the footage we've gotten has taken place in Lucis, so I think Square maybe holding back with us.

Plywood · Aug 21, 2016

RawNuts said:
Bro, it's right there in the shot you posted.

The overarching goal is to go to the moon.

If Capcom won't get Megaman off the man then Square will!

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

I'm sure the game is very big in scale and that there are many places to go, with several cities to visit and see.

Ishida said:
This game is going to be massive. Of course they are not showing everything. Square will not show everything this game will contain. I'm willing to bet that we have been shown less than 20% of all the story and events.

I'm sure the maps will be massive. I'm questioning whether not not much will happen on them. The fact that we know that there are more characters that we haven't seen doesn't mean that they take part in some grand story events that we know nothing about.

Inuhanyou said:
You say a story trailer would not hurt the mystique of the game, but then not having a story trailer would probably make more sense for anticipation factor, isn't that right?

On the contrary, it makes it seem as if there is nothing to anticipate. It's fine if you want to think that we haven't seen much out of this grand plan to make the game extra rewarding for players by not showing them anything that happens. But is that likely?

Mailbox said:
Or you know, the trailers you posted are Commericals for game products where the only truly tv-appropriate footage to show was form CG cutscenes, all of which were plot important.

We already know a ton of lore for the game already, Like the crystal, the Astreals, the royal arms, the Plague of the Stars, Luna being an "oracle" (which is tied to the Plague of the Stars, and the inclusion of gods.

There is a bunch there and all of it seems very plot related. Just because we haven't seen too much late game stuff, like those commercials spoil outright (seriously some of those cutscenes in the ff9 trailer are REALLY late game stuff), doesn't mean FF15 is eventless.

Wait closer to release for a TV CM, then if we don't know anything about the plot, complain.

I'm sorry, I can't follow what you mean by "TV appropriate" and how the two commercials and single trailer I linked, which show early, mid, and late game events are somehow invalidated by television or its connection.

Whether or not we know very basic ideas about plot and lore, which are disseminated through interviews, etc. is irrelevant to whether or not FFXV will be an "eventful" game where things ... happen.

It's not that we haven't seen too much of the late game stuff. We've seen hardly anything from the mid game. Perhaps not even the early game. Why? Is it truly likely that this is out of some special and unprecedented effort to conceal the story of the game from us?

Wait? There is no more waiting. Final Fantasy XV's original release date is nearly a month from now. It seems like what we've seen is what Square is willing to show. E3 came and went, while the marketing made no shift in focus.

Mango Madness said:
If there's anyone here who could tell you whether or not FFXV is thin on story, they wouldn't, because it would likely mean losing their jobs.

Even the 4chan leaks only give a broad overview of key plot points. Whether those points comprise the entire narrative is unknown.

I didn't come into this thread with the expectation that Square-Enix employees or otherwise would come in and provide information.

Some Nobody · Aug 21, 2016

This is the first time on GAF I've seen someone complain about too much gameplay, not enough story.

And its weird too, 'cause it's almost like saying FFXV has no plot even though we've seen plenty of it already.

Mailbox · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
I'm sorry, I can't follow what you mean by "TV appropriate" and how the two commercials and single trailer I linked, which show early, mid, and late game events are somehow invalidated by television or its connection.

Whether or not we know very basic ideas about plot and lore, which are disseminated through interviews, etc. is irrelevant to whether or not FFXV will be an "eventful" game where things ... happen.

It's not that we haven't seen too much of the late game stuff. We've seen hardly anything from the mid game. Perhaps not even the early game. Why? Is it truly likely that this is out of some special and unprecedented effort to conceal the story of the game from us?

Wait? There is no more waiting. Final Fantasy XV's original release date is nearly a month from now. It seems like what we've seen is what Square is willing to show. E3 came and went, while the marketing made no shift in focus.

You're misunderstanding what I was saying. I meant in the case of the FF9 Commercial, that the only viable parts to "WOW" people in a commercial in that game would be to show the CG cut-scenes, all of which are hugely plot related. FF15 is being played close to the chest. In fact, I was simply saying that showing Alexander and other stuff in the FF9 trailer would be a bad idea nowadays.

While the afrojack trailer was all "in gameplay" (whatever you mean by that... you can still discern event information by what is going on via gameplay) but it showed a decent amount of where you will be going and some interesting "what you might be doing". Also, you should check out the "uncovered final fantasy xv trailer" since that focuses a good deal on story.

I don't get why you are thinking that nothing will happen in this game, when we have seen again and again that "things happen" in this story. I just think you are ignoring it for some reason. Do you just expect a whole trailer full of cut-scenes telling us major plot developments and potential spoilers of the game? You know that's why people complain about Movie trailers, right? Did you also feel this way when they only showed a couple of areas from The Last Of Us over and over, or only a couple of set pieces in Uncharted every conference without giving much story detail?

Also, lets not forget like TGS and and potential trailers coming out of that is going to be a thing. Lets also not forget that we HAVE been delayed so now there IS a wait and as such a change in paradigm for the marketing team (who have probably known about this delay for a fair bit).

Limality · Aug 21, 2016

I kinda get what you want to say. You fear that they focused so hard to make the world massive, that they actually forgot to put a substantial story into it?

I remember playing TES: Skyrim and getting distracted by all the other things that I completed the main Quest a year later, is this what you're afraid of?

JayBabay · Aug 21, 2016

I think OP's point isn't about the scale or size of the game. It's the amount of narrative or story driven content that keeps the player engaged throughout the adventure.

The Emperor · Aug 21, 2016

I really think people are hugely underestimating all that this game will offer in locales, content and story.

I think we are all in for a pleasant shock come November.

However I get your fear about focussed eventing within the storytelling. I think in the 50 min video a lot of cutscenes were shortened or skipped btw

sappyday · Aug 21, 2016

JayBabay said:
I think OP's point isn't about the scale or size of the game. It's the amount of narrative or story driven content that keeps the player engaged throughout the adventure.

Yea but OP's basing this off marketing material. And what some of us are saying is that the marketing material has been mainly focused on the first few chapters with some glimpses of later parts and a lot of the focus has been on the gameplay. Op thinks this is Square's way of saying they don't have eventful things happening throughout the game. It could be but there isn't much evidence that this is the case. While in my post I at least try to show they have indeed been holding back at least somewhat.

LouisaFerre · Aug 21, 2016

JayBabay said:
I think OP's point isn't about the scale or size of the game. It's the amount of narrative or story driven content that keeps the player engaged throughout the adventure.

Yeah, that's one of my concerns as well, I mean, the combat mechanics do seem interesting, but I'm pretty skeptical that they and the enemies will be well designed enough to really keep me interested for the length of the game that I'm supposed to be. I like a number of the concepts that seem to be included in the story, you know, the road trip, growing as friends, all that, but I haven't really seen anything writing wise in quite a while that I found particularly engaging. That's the thing that I'm particularly worried about. I like the art direction a lot, and I think I'll find the gameplay decent, but I want memorable world building, characters, emotional sequences on top of that. I mean, I'm not going to just assume that it isn't there, but you know, having to edit out parts of the story to get the game out on time, I think it's reasonable to at least be concerned about whether or not the result will actually be all that interesting.

Squire · Aug 21, 2016

That's sort of the conclusion I - I wouldn't say drew, but I'm bracing for it.

Like, I wouldn't be surprised if they've only shown Duscae and Altissia, because yeah, not much really happens, all said and done.

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

JayBabay said:
I think OP's point isn't about the scale or size of the game. It's the amount of narrative or story driven content that keeps the player engaged throughout the adventure.

Right. Personally, in every JRPG and Final Fantasy I have truly enjoyed, I have spent them anticipating what would happen next.

Mailbox said:
You're misunderstanding what I was saying. I meant in the case of the FF9 Commercial, that the only viable parts to "WOW" people in a commercial in that game would be to show the CG cut-scenes, all of which are hugely plot related. FF15 is being played close to the chest. In fact, I was simply saying that showing Alexander and other stuff in the FF9 trailer would be a bad idea nowadays.

While the afrojack trailer was all "in gameplay" (whatever you mean by that... you can still discern event information by what is going on via gameplay) but it showed a decent amount of where you will be going and some interesting "what you might be doing". Also, you should check out the "uncovered final fantasy xv trailer" since that focuses a good deal on story.

I don't get why you are thinking that nothing will happen in this game, when we have seen again and again that "things happen" in this story. I just think you are ignoring it for some reason. Do you just expect a whole trailer full of cut-scenes telling us major plot developments and potential spoilers of the game? You know that's why people complain about Movie trailers, right? Did you also feel this way when they only showed a couple of areas from The Last Of Us over and over, or only a couple of set pieces in Uncharted every conference without giving much story detail?

Also, lets not forget like TGS and and potential trailers coming out of that is going to be a thing. Lets also not forget that we HAVE been delayed so now there IS a wait and as such a change in paradigm for the marketing team (who have probably known about this delay for a fair bit).

Why would it be a bad idea? What reason do you have to think that Square-Enix, the company, thinks that it would be a bad idea given their history? Have they shown any other restraint towards showing cutscenes in a trailer?

Gameplay where you can "discern" information is still gameplay. There were roughly less than 10 seconds of the trailer devoted to non-gameplay.

Generally JRPG trailers start off with a lot of cutscenes and storytelling. A trailer often tells a story itself. Then there's generally a switch to show off some gameplay, and then back to story again. The above FFX trailer follows that basic format, and so does this FFXII trailer. And this FFXIII trailer.

Enlighten me. So far, I know there is

1. Probably more than just the "newspaper" scene devoted to the invasion of Insomnia. I think we've seen something that takes place just before that event, between Noctis and Regis. I could be wrong.

2. Some sort of infiltration event where the lady dragoon is fought.

3. Leviathan summoned at Altissia and an event surrounding that.

4. Probably a "take back your kingdom event" that may or may not be the endgame. I'm worried it is.

Maybe I'm misinformed, I don't know.

Squire · Aug 21, 2016

Mailbox said:
Or you know, the trailers you posted are Commericals for game products where the only truly tv-appropriate footage to show was form CG cutscenes, all of which were plot important.

We already know a ton of lore for the game already, Like the crystal, the Astreals, the royal arms, the Plague of the Stars, Luna being an "oracle" (which is tied to the Plague of the Stars, and the inclusion of gods.

There is a bunch there and all of it seems very plot related. Just because we haven't seen too much late game stuff, like those commercials spoil outright (seriously some of those cutscenes in the ff9 trailer are REALLY late game stuff), doesn't mean FF15 is eventless.

Wait closer to release for a TV CM, then if we don't know anything about the plot, complain.

We had a ton of "lore" for FFXIII too and see how that went? We had so much lore, we had no actual plot.

Like, if there's any defense for the way they're approaching this, please let it not be "there's lore". They did that last time and the audience wasn't just burned, they were charbroiled.

Inuhanyou · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
Why would it be a bad idea? What reason do you have to think that Square-Enix, the company, thinks that it would be a bad idea given their history? Have they shown any other restraint towards showing cutscenes in a trailer?

Gameplay where you can "discern" information is still gameplay. There were roughly less than 10 seconds of the trailer devoted to non-gameplay.

Generally JRPG trailers start off with a lot of cutscenes and storytelling. A trailer often tells a story itself. Then there's generally a switch to show off some gameplay, and then back to story again. The above FFX trailer follows that basic format, and so does this FFXII trailer. And this FFXIII trailer.

Enlighten me. So far, I know there is

1. Probably more than just the "newspaper" scene devoted to the invasion of Insomnia. I think we've seen something that takes place just before that event, between Noctis and Regis. I could be wrong.

2. Some sort of infiltration event where the lady Dragoon is fought.

3. Leviathan summoned at Altissia and an event surrounding that.

4. Probably a "take back your kingdom event" that may or may not be the endgame. I'm worried it is.

So, your worried that the story is short? Any story can be short if you try and distill it down to major plot points like that.

Even if those were the only points of the game, there's going to be tons of detail to those things that your dismissing out of unreasonable concern

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

Inuhanyou said:
So, your worried that the story is short? Any story can be short if you try and distill it down to major plot points like that.

Even if those were the only points of the game, there's going to be tons of detail to those things that your dismissing out of unreasonable concern

That's not meant to be an outline of the plot. That is a list of events that I am aware of during the game. Is that all?

To compare, here are a list of major events that occur during FFX off the top of my head (again, not a summary): Sin Attacks Dream Zanarkand, Sin Attacks Kilika, Blitzball Tournament, Crusaders & Machina vs. Sin, and The Wedding in Bevelle. All of these were shown in the trailer I posted. What will have to remember FFXV by?

What am I dismissing?

Inuhanyou · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
That's not meant to be an outline of the plot. That is a list of events that I am aware of during the game. Is that all?

To compare, here are a list of major events that occur during FFX off the top of my head (again, not a summary): Sin Attacks Dream Zanarkand, Sin Attacks Kilika, Blitzball Tournament, Crusaders & Machina vs. Sin, and The Wedding in Bevelle. All of these were shown in the trailer I posted. What will have to remember FFXV by?

What am I dismissing?

Your dismissing the fact that the game isn't out yet and you have not played it, and are basing all your assumptions on SE not showing spoiler territory. We've already seen Luna and Noct as children, we've seen parts of the invasion including a 2 hour cutscene of what happens in kingsglaive, we've seen bosses, we've seen so many areas and characters.

Like what more could you want?

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

Inuhanyou said:
Your dismissing the fact that the game isn't out yet and you have not played it, and are basing all your assumptions on SE not showing spoiler territory. We've already seen Luna and Noct as children, we've seen parts of the invasion including a 2 hour cutscene of what happens in kingsglaive, we've seen bosses, we've seen so many areas and characters.

Like what more could you want?

Lol. I'm not allowed to make inferences based on the marketing media for an unreleased game? Okay. I am not making any definite claims that FFXV will be a certain way. But I believe the nature of the marketing media that has been released says something about the nature of the game. That's what marketing media is supposed to do. You are supposed to draw inferences based on it. Square hopes that the inference we will draw is that Final Fantasy XV looks really fun to play. When they showed us the Dawn trailer, they probably wanted us to draw the conclusion that it was an emotional story. When they show us clips from the Leviathan scene they are reassuring us that that portion of the game is still intact and that there is an exciting event in Altissia.

You've offered me a flashback and an event that has been largely been cut from the game and turned into a movie. FFXV is going to have to stand on its own. Areas and characters don't have much to do with what I'm talking about, unless they are involved in events that Square has yet to show exist.

A few posts up I commented that the marketing media for FFX, FFXII, and FFXIII is very different from FFXV. Could it be that FFXV is a very different title?

Inuhanyou · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
Lol. I'm not allowed to make inferences based on the marketing media for an unreleased game? Okay. I am not making any outright statements. But I believe the nature of the marketing media that has been released says something about the nature of the game. That's what marketing media is supposed to do. You are supposed to draw inferences based on it. Square hopes that the inference we will draw is that Final Fantasy XV looks really fun to play. When they showed us the Dawn trailer, they probably wanted us to draw the conclusion that it was an emotional story.

You've offered me a flashback and an event that has been largely been cut from the game and turned into a movie. FFXV is going to have to stand on its own.

What more could I want, indeed.

We've known from the beginning that 15 is supposed to be an emotional tale of bros going on an adventure together to save their kingdom by acquiring the power of Noctis's birthright. You actually are sitting here and saying that the bros are not going to have emotional moments together in their travels?

That things aren't going to happen to make them grow stronger as a unit and continue forward?

Come on man, its common sense, why don't you get it?

Just because they have not spoiled any of that stuff in trailers doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the game, its that they are holding it to maximize player investment and engagement, its first grade stuff

bobbytkc · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
... What will have to remember FFXV by?

What am I dismissing?

This is kind of an extreme sentiment isn't it?

You haven't played the game.

Some Nobody said:
This is the first time on GAF I've seen someone complain about too much gameplay, not enough story.

And its weird too, 'cause it's almost like saying FFXV has no plot even though we've seen plenty of it already.

I feel like people just want to shit on some games, especially a franchise that has been on the downtrend like final fantasy.

Inuhanyou · Aug 21, 2016

You know what i think OP? I think your just scared. Scared that this game is going to turn out bad, and its not going to live up to expectations.

Well i'm here to tell you, that your not the only one who is anxious to get their hands on this product.

Just because your afraid of the end result doesn't mean you have to have such hyperbole about trailers not showing spoilers that you have to make threads like this being unreasonable!

The most important thing to take away from this is that this game is going to basically be a Japanese RPG Gears of war.

Epic wanted players to care about the gang of bros and their journey by their jovial banter and emotional experiences based on the events that take place. That is not going to happen if SE just spoils all of those events like you want OP.

Pooya · Aug 21, 2016

My impression so far is that, it's going to be very much like FFXII as far as story and its presence goes. you're probably right.

I'm not expecting too many long cutscenes and interruptions like that. I think that makes making a story trailer harder for them. They have had no issues before spoiling everything in trailers.

Mailbox · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
Lol. I'm not allowed to make inferences based on the marketing media for an unreleased game? Okay. I am not making any outright statements. But I believe the nature of the marketing media that has been released says something about the nature of the game. That's what marketing media is supposed to do. You are supposed to draw inferences based on it. Square hopes that the inference we will draw is that Final Fantasy XV looks really fun to play. When they showed us the Dawn trailer, they probably wanted us to draw the conclusion that it was an emotional story.

You've offered me a flashback and an event that has been largely been cut from the game and turned into a movie. FFXV is going to have to stand on its own.

What more could I want, indeed.

Just gonna point out that the Dawn trailer wasn't really about having an emotional story and was more about pinpointing the father themes of the game and how they relate to both Noct and Luna.

The "flashback" to noctis' childhood wasn't cut, since... you know it was a recent trailer. And most of the trailers, media, and whatnot is setup. Its a different way of marketing the game this time. Its about showing what happens while Noct is away (Kingsglaive); who these characters are (Brotherhood); and showing how the characters interact with each other (the gameplay vids). Keeping hush hush on the story doesn't mean that "events where 'things happen'" aren't there, but the way you somehow insinuate that them not showing much = not much is there is almost conspiracy levels of reaching. Remember when Naughty Dog showed NOTHING on the multiplayer of the last of us and everyone thought that it was just a throwaway feature that would be generic and lack depth? And remember how great and quite original it actually ended up being at release? With any game, especially one with such a confusing development as 15's has been; a story we KNEW was once 3 games worth of material now trimmed and molded to fit 1 game; a game that once had Shakespearean themes and now most likely doesn't due to directorial and character (stella) changes, would you not think it in the best interest of marketing and of the company to shy away from showing all the things that have changed and all the things that would go against expectations and instead have the player play through the game to garner new and more appropriate expectations? I'm not saying that SE's marketing team has been great for 15. It hasn't. Outside of the Uncovered trailer, we haven't seen a truly good trailer since Nomura (man that guy can make an exciting trailer!). But they are showing little bits and pieces. Planting little seeds in the way of "why are they THERE?" "who is that, what are they talking about" etc etc. Its vague, but in a way that makes sense.

Now, don't be round about and snarky here: WHAT do you want from the trailers? We can't really infer much from you're stances in this post. WHAT exactly do you want.

You want them to show more bombastic events? Spoilers? Other regions of the game? maybe cut-scenes of the Nifilhim authority?

Caipirinha · Aug 21, 2016

Oh crystal ball, show me how this game will be received

"The story will be trite, cliché and forgettable, the characters will be absolutely insufferable and we will all have to pretend that we live in a post-story era of gaming in which a mainline Final Fantasy game doesn't need a coherent or interesting plot and should be judged primarily on it's gameplay... which will also be bad."

Yup sounds about right.

Squire · Aug 21, 2016

Its possible that there are details that 4chan leak didn't cover and that that's what Tabata is referring to when he says no ones gotten it all right. Just one could change everything too, e.g. in FFX,

learning the Final Summom is a sacrificial ritual

puts the preceeding thirty hours of the game into a whole new light. You can break the game down into bullet points, exclude only the spoilered detail, and it's a fairly by the numbers adventure story.

It is also equally possible the 4chan leak is more or less exactly what we're getting, and that any missing or incorrect details are completely negligible, all said and done. Some stories are just thin. It happens.

And really, I think everyone should - now, if they haven't already - temper their expectations for the kind of wide variety of locations and scenarios in this as in other FFs. It's their first open-world game and it's the studios that have been working in the genre for 10-15 years that really excel at that element.

Falk · Aug 21, 2016

miladesn said:
FFXII

Even if it's remotely similar, at least you aren't playing some random kid who's along for the ride.

Mailbox · Aug 21, 2016

Falk said:
Even if it's remotely similar, at least you aren't playing some random kid who's along for the ride.

Not playing as a kid whose abs texture looks like a weird piece of armour?
IN!

Inuhanyou · Aug 21, 2016

Mailbox said:
Not playing as a kid whose abs texture looks like a weird piece of armour?
IN!

Your just jealous of Vaan's strength of character!

Dark_castle · Aug 21, 2016

I'm expecting XV to be more like FFXII and western RPG, very gameplay centric game with very few cutscene in between, mostly substituted by seamless party banter, interactions with npc and small stories via side quests.

Falk · Aug 21, 2016

Mailbox said:
Not playing as a kid whose abs texture looks like a weird piece of armour?
IN!

Inuhanyou said:
Your just jealous of Vaan's strength of character!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E5DG4PM/?tag=neogaf0e-20

edit: Potentially semi-NSFW links.

Dark_castle said:
I'm expecting XV to be more like FFXII and western RPG, very gameplay centric game with very few cutscene in between, mostly substituted by seamless party banter, interactions with npc and small stories via side quests.

You know, if you were to go back to the PSX era, a lot of the set-piece moments really were FMVs, with some things like the motorcycle chase in FF7 and the punching championship during the Garden face-off in FF8 being minigames of varying levels of success. Outside of that, the scenario planner basically needed to find creative ways to link the set pieces to the core gameplay loop (segmented-off ATB battles) or create urgency via timed sequences. Actually, I take that back, it goes further back than the PSX era, thinking of stuff like Ultros announcing that he'll push the anvil off in 5:00 minutes

If anything, the more engaged, seamless combat in FFXV means a lot of it has transferred to 'gameplay', like the Titan showing at E3. We also know from the Afrojack trailer that there's at least a Leviathan sequence involving the party, and that there's a chase/train/airship sequence of some sort.

How successful those are at recapturing the 'set piece' feelings of old, again who can say till we have our hands on the game, but I think in terms of set pieces it's at least more ambitious than the typical WRPG. You don't really talk about set pieces when talking about Skyrim, Fallout, etc - those are the dominion of action/adventure games like Uncharted, Tomb Raider, etc.

kennyamr · Aug 21, 2016

Im actually perplexed that they are showing the Gamescom 50 mins video.

I want to enjoy the game, therefore I want to know as little as possible.

Not everyone likes to know the entire story before actually playing it.

So yeah, because of spoilers, and I hope they dont release any more videos, or story stuff, we need more plot-secrecy in this industry in my opinion.

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

For those who suggest that this is out of an effort to avoid spoilers, ...

1. This robs Square-Enix of marketing material. This would mean a conscious decision to not market the game based on the spectacle that it has been largely famous for for nearly two decades. I'm sure they want to "maximize" enjoyment of their game so much that they are willing to sacrifice potential sales by being unwilling to show the vast majority of the story the game contains.
2. Again, they have shown no hesitation to show story spoilers int he past. Especially not to this degree.

To clarify, I understand that going into a Final Fantasy completely blind has the potential to be a great experience and letting the story surprise you can be a lot of fun. But I find it incredibly unlikely that Square is going out of their way to provide that experience for players.

Inuhanyou said:
We've known from the beginning that 15 is supposed to be an emotional tale of bros going on an adventure together to save their kingdom by acquiring the power of Noctis's birthright. You actually are sitting here and saying that the bros are not going to have emotional moments together in their travels?

That things aren't going to happen to make them grow stronger as a unit and continue forward?

Come on man, its common sense, why don't you get it?

Just because they have not spoiled any of that stuff in trailers doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the game, its that they are holding it to maximize player investment and engagement, its first grade stuff

No, it's not "common sense" to make the assumption that Square's intentions for it to be an emotional journey will equate to it been an eventful one or even that that they will be successful doing so.

Meanwhile, the game has been compared to Zelda OoT - going on a lengthy journey with a distant goal in mind. Square-Enix has been sowing the seeds for us to readjust our expectations for the game. That it's not a standard Final Fantasy. Even that members of staff had proclaimed that it's "not Final Fantasy" and that they have "Final Fantasy disease" because they can't have an open mind. I wonder what's different about FFXV?

I guess they probably weren't trying to "maximize player investment and engagement" with the media for FFVIII, IX, X, XII, and XIII.

Mailbox · Aug 21, 2016

Inuhanyou said:
Your just jealous of Vaan's strength of character!

I WANNA BE A SKY PIRATE!!!!

Falk said:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E5DG4PM/?tag=neogaf0e-20

edit: Potentially semi-NSFW links.

If you don't mind me going on a tangent:

In ff12 Vaan has these abs:

At best, those look like tatoos, not abs. Abs should not look like they are indented into your body!

In dissidia, this is fixed with the character model. He has proper Abs:

YAY!

BuT WAIT!? In the HD remaster of ff12.... THEY DIDN'T CHANGE IT!?

This makes me so livid... and I don't know why.. I hate Vaan. Everything about this ass. I hate it all. It makes no sense!

Inuhanyou · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
For those who suggest that this is out of an effort to avoid spoilers, ...

1. This robs Square-Enix of marketing material. This would mean a conscious decision to not market the game based on the spectacle that it has been largely famous for for nearly two decades. I'm sure they want to "maximize" enjoyment of their game so much that they are willing to sacrifice potential sales by being unwilling to show the vast majority of the story the game contains.
2. Again, they have shown no hesitation to show story spoilers int he past. Especially not to this degree.

No, it's not "common sense" to make the assumption that Square's intentions for it to be an emotional journey will equate to it been an eventful one or even that that they will be successful doing so.

Meanwhile, the game has been compared to Zelda OoT - going on a lengthy journey with a distant goal in mind. Square-Enix has been sowing the seeds for us to readjust our expectations for the game. That it's not a standard Final Fantasy. Even that members of staff had proclaimed that it's "not Final Fantasy" and that they have "Final Fantasy disease" because they can't have an open mind. I wonder what's different about FFXV?

I guess they probably weren't trying to "maximize player investment and engagement" with the media for FFVIII, IX, X, XII, and XIII.

Why are you constantly equating this game to games that are like 6 years old at at the most recent? Why can't they try something new for once?

You keep acting like everything has to be like how previous FF's were, that's not how its going to be with 15.

This game is packed with content.

You keep saying that they are loosing sales by not showing spoilers of the game, but who actually thinks like that? Who actually is actively not interested in the game because they are not spoiling the Noctis and his friend's journey right down to the last grain of sand?

Nobody is going to not buy this game just because they are only showing certain locations and environments, that's being ridiculous, we've seen a huge fight with a Malboro that was only in seconds worth of footage, is that enough for you to see there's tons of content in this game? Of course not, because you want to see every single boss fight and minigame to be satisfied right?

kennyamr · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
For those who suggest that this is out of an effort to avoid spoilers, ...

it's because of spoilers.

sappyday · Aug 21, 2016

encephalon said:
For those who suggest that this is out of an effort to avoid spoilers, ...

1. This robs Square-Enix of marketing material. This would mean a conscious decision to not market the game based on the spectacle that it has been largely famous for for nearly two decades. I'm sure they want to "maximize" enjoyment of their game so much that they are willing to sacrifice potential sales by being unwilling to show the vast majority of the story the game contains.
2. Again, they have shown no hesitation to show story spoilers int he past. Especially not to this degree.

1. Their marketing material isn't over. They've shown plenty of stuff but you just don't consider it enough.
2. That was in the past. This is the present where this is the first game being run by a new director that has never taken charge of a mainline FF title. This is his way of doing things.

Maybe there isn't a lot compared to other games. But there is stuff they haven't shown. You think there is nothing going to happen in the major cities like Tenebrea? Or how about the way they get a summon. If titan is this big deal as so is Leviathan, you think the other ones will just be collected by doing a dungeon? What about the whole Red Sky thing they hinted at in the TGS 2014 trailer? What about Ravus? Luna? For a major character I doubt she'll be included only in the Altissia event.

Frumix · Aug 21, 2016

I've posted this in the other thread but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX5D4Fenz5g
This trailer deserves another look in the context of what we know now about the plot progression.

There's also this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny69S-GWcU8
A lot of this is changed/cut/rewritten but some of it should still be in the game

We really really can't say what the original plot of Versus 13 was gonna be like, or if there ever was a finalized draft of how events are supposed to unfold. For 15, I think they're subtly trying to draw it back to classic Final Fantasy staples in a way. The first overarching quest Noctis gets is to collect the magic crystal swords of old kings of Lucis, which thematically could tie in into the arc of him maturing up and coming into his own as the heir to the throne. At the end of this arc we perhaps strike down the evil magitek Empire because of course we do.

Next, there's summons. Wouldn't be Final Fantasy without summons. In addition to crystals we're gonna collect them as well, and that supposedly involves certain set pieces and story arcs. There's a big scene in Altissia that happens some time after you arrive there where Leviathan is summoned and the Empire attacks it, presumably Leviathan is gonna be one of the summons you're gonna get. There's the fight against Titan with several phases, we were shown an early version of one of them, presumably there's others like that.

Then there's infiltration of Nifelheim, the deal with Luna's brother, a possible parallel between Ardyn/Aedola and Kefka/Gestahl because Tabata supposedly loves his FF6, Luna's own story arc that we're still aren't told what it is, Knights of the Round that are right there on the cover but their involvement is yet unspecified.

And in Final Fantasy tradition the Empire itself is probably not the last big bad, but there's probably some cosmic deity that comes out at the end that we'll have to defeat because there's some hints about how the world is "changing, ending as we speak" and there's that scene with dark red skies in one of the recent trailers that we don't know nothing about; the astral shards like the one seen in Duscae.

So that's a lot of potential story arcs and set pieces that we already know about. The only thing I'm kinda baffled about right now is Chapter 0.
How much of it still in the game? Why aren't they showing it prefering to focus on bland monster hunting in a bland desert? Hard to say, but remember that they made two demos with material different from the final game specifically because they wanted to avoid revealing the storyline as much as possible.

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

sappyday said:
1. Their marketing material isn't over. They've shown plenty of stuff but you just don't consider it enough.
2. That was in the past. This is the present where this is the first game being run by a new director that has never taken charge of a mainline FF title. This is his way of doing things.

Maybe there isn't a lot compared to other games. But there is stuff they haven't shown. You think there is nothing going to happen in the major cities like Tenebrea? Or how about the way they get a summon. If titan is this big deal as so is Leviathan, you think the other ones will just be collected by doing a dungeon? What about the whole Red Sky thing they hinted at in the TGS 2014 trailer? What about Ravus? Luna? For a major character I doubt she'll be included only in the Altissia event.

Tabata directed FF Type-0 which showed a major character death in one of its promotional videos. I'm not suggesting that there is absolutely no care taken for spoilers in the marketing for this game. But it's unlikely that Square would take a marketing approach to this game so stringent in its avoidance of spoilers, that it is not only the most stringent in the history of the series, an anomaly within the JRPG genre.

I'm sure there are many scenes we haven't seen. But perhaps there are few locations that act as a stage for a major story event. We might have goals to achieve from region to region, but that doesn't mean that things happen in them. I referenced the journey to Archades in the OP. Maybe that's the way the bulk of the game is.

Pooya · Aug 21, 2016

They were spoiling everything with Type-0 back in 2011. They even had the very ending of the game in one of the trailers, lol. I don't think it's a director thing..

People have already played 5-6 hours of the game, there are a lot of footage out there to see. You can extrapolate the structure of the game. As in you go around doing stuff for NPCs, tasks that are loosely connected to your journey and next destination within each chapter (with bad poorly written dialog ;p) and then in between each chapter, there is a big story event that moves the plot to next chapter. What you will see most of the time, are the seamless party banter and interactions and quick short event scenes. I'm not sure if that's a negative for the game, everyone seemingly hated to watch a cutscene every footstep in XIII, "the game is like a movie" etc etc. FF13 has like 7 hours just cinematics, that's a lot of time to dedicate to a basic story that doesn't have much to say. They got a lot of flak for that. yeah true with a good story that approach could be good!

But If you've been paying attention, ever since that game, they've been focusing on gameplay a lot more than story. Watching the 50 min video, the game actually felt very similar in structure to Lightning Returns even though this is designed by entirely different people, they had similar goals. It's about gameplay and player agency.

If you're still expecting hours of story scenes full of heavy drama like you expected from old Nomura trailers with Shakespeare quotes and stuff like that and think they are holding back because of spoilers at this stage, I bet good money you will be disappointed.

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

Inuhanyou said:
Why are you constantly equating this game to games that are like 6 years old at at the most recent? Why can't they try something new for once?

You keep acting like everything has to be like how previous FF's were, that's not how its going to be with 15.

I guess "historical precedence" is meaningless.

No, I'm acting like it's going to be different. That's kind of the point.

This game is packed with content.

Yeah, but

Inuhanyou said:
Your [ignoring] the fact that the game isn't out yet and you have not played it

You keep saying that they are loosing sales by not showing spoilers of the game, but who actually thinks like that? Who actually is actively not interested in the game because they are not spoiling the Noctis and his friend's journey right down to the last grain of sand?

Nobody is going to not buy this game just because they are only showing certain locations and environments, that's being ridiculous, we've seen a huge fight with a Malboro that was only in seconds worth of footage, is that enough for you to see there's tons of content in this game? Of course not, because you want to see every single boss fight and minigame to be satisfied right?

Okay, what if Square Enix showed a particular Marlboro boss in the very first trailer. And that was fine, but the next trailer also featured the same Marlboro boss but also 2 or 3 more enemies. And then the next trailer showed the Marlboro boss as well. And then the one after that.

I mean, I'm sure there are a few more bosses. But I'd probably start to think there weren't that many bosses in the game.

Kase · Aug 21, 2016

Well there is the invasion of Accordo and the Leviathan battle which was been spoiled since the 2013 E3 trailer. I think that because we've been waiting so long and seen several rehashes of the same thing, it feels like we haven't seen anything particular spectacular. But if they were to show anymore then yes it might show a bit too much. Remember that even when FFX trailers were released we maybe only saw the destruction of Kilika and the rescue at Bevelle, everything else was out of context.

encephalon · Aug 21, 2016

Kase said:
Well there is the invasion of Accordo and the Leviathan battle which was been spoiled since the 2013 E3 trailer. I think that because we've been waiting so long and seen several rehashes of the same thing, it feels like we haven't seen anything particular spectacular. But if they were to show anymore then yes it might show a bit too much. Remember that even when FFX trailers were released we maybe only saw the destruction of Kilika and the rescue at Bevelle, everything else was out of context.

Well, in the trailer I linked ...

encephalon said:
Sin Attacks Dream Zanarkand, Sin Attacks Kilika, Blitzball Tournament, Crusaders & Machina vs. Sin, and The Wedding in Bevelle.

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