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DMONKUMA
Junior Member
(01-26-2017, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by - J - D -

I wish Kojima would just jerk off in the bathroom beforre attending design meetings for his games.

Might have a social jerking meeting at the new office *shrugs*

Anyways I figured he would do this. Gonna wonder how is gonna play the naked mecha lady in this game.
Crazy Diamond
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pinko Marx

No one is angry here pal. We're just talking and hoping Kojima doesn't repeat previous sins. The world must be spared another character as bad as Quiet. Its important.

If wanting to see some virtual titties is a sin, we all going to Hell.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
(01-26-2017, 07:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by mxgt

just out of pure curiosity.

did you have a problem with naked Raiden in MGS2

Raiden in MGS2 has been discussed to death in this thread. Try again.
hydrophilic attack
(01-26-2017, 07:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crossing Eden

It's almost like the dude has a history of games where there's a noticeable and worrying downward spiral when it comes to the treatment of women. Especially in comparison to other devs who at a time, used to do similar things, such as Ubi's Prince of Persia game that was meant to be edgy or ND's Jak 2. People have a ton of valid reasons to be worried, with the BB corps, Quiet, Paz, Strangelove literally being fridged, etc.

The female characters were so good in mgs2 :(
Angry Fork
Spelling is Hard
(01-26-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

Why is disliking crappy effortless characters "being triggered"?

Because 90% of games have crappy characters because game writing is mostly meh compared to TV/film. If people were really upset about characters "in general" than there wouldn't be a sole focus on Quiet, it would just be bitching about mgs5 as a whole.

For some reason people take Quiet seriously though and see it as a slight against them personally, even though the people most upset about it are probably men. Women don't give a shit because they're capable of making their own decisions about what media they consume, and if MGS isn't one of those they're not losing any sleep over it.

Originally Posted by Veelk

No, you don't get it at all. Like, at all.

That people liked these characters doesn't mean anything. It just means he's good enough at writing other aspects of their characters to be engaging (though I'd argue that it's more that he writes the story around these characters rather than that these characters are interesting in and of themselves, for the most part, but that's just me). To use myself as an example, I fucking LOVE the Princess Bride, but I'm not going to pretend that it Princess Buttercup isn't a stereotypical damsel in distress for the male hero to save. It's still a good movie, but that doesn't change that it's adhering to shitty stereotypes.

But sexual objectifying isn't a thing you just make up for. You don't get to get away with sexual objectification just because you do other stuff. That's not how the world works, you don't get to steal something just because you paid like you were supposed to the past 50 times.

The fact that Kojima seems legitimately incapable of writing a female character, even a child, who is not sexually objectified is a legitimate problem both for him and the world view that his art brings to his audience. It's harmful, and he doesn't get out of that because "Well, people like them, so it's okay".

You remember that quote from the final fantasy 15 guy about how he didn't understand why people wanted female characters if they were going to get mad about their sexual objectification? He may have said it, but Kojima is living that philosophy. If he seriously can't write a female character who isn't sexually objectified no matter what, then it kind of implies the value he holds on women. Not that he doesn't value women, but that he primarily values them for titillation rather than as people. And any time you dehumanize people for their physical attributes, that's bad.

Portraying sexualized women (or men) isn't a bad thing. Men have been "sexually objectified" in mgs games. It doesn't matter at all to the real world because it's fiction. Nobody "oogles" at Quiet in-game and thinks they can do it in real life to women without real consequences because most of us aren't inept sociopaths.

Murder in games doesn't cause murder in real life, "dehumanizing" fictional characters doesn't dehumanize people in real life, unless someone is a psycho and takes fiction seriously in which case the problem is with them.
Crazy Diamond
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by hydrophilic attack

The female characters were so good in mgs2 :(

And better in Peace Walker.
Ooccoo
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:50 PM)
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I skipped MGSV and forgot how dumb Quiet is as a character

That gif blows my mind
John Kowalski
Banned
(01-26-2017, 07:50 PM)

Originally Posted by whalleywhat

Busted. I was raised within a culture and already have a well-formed worldview. But I would honestly like to hear what WaffleTaco has to say.

What he's saying is self evident. There is more value in representation of minorities than there is in representation of de facto standard demographics in games, i.e. sexually attractive white women, and any character that isn't put to represent those misrepresented minorities adds negative value to the game by virtue of continuing standards of beauty and privilege that already have a negative impact on game players of all kinds, but most importantly on women that don't conform to beauty standards or who otherwise belong to non represented demographics (e.g. black, native american, lgbt, etc.).

But most relevantly what he's pointing out is your reticence to consider his stance and reason yourself why he might have it and why it might be a positive stance to have, instead of making a mockery of his posts by exaggerating them into something they're not, which makes it very evident that you're not even putting basic effort into understanding them.
bishopcruz
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ketkat

The extent of her character in Phantom Pain, the game being talked about, is essentially rape victim. She sits in the hospital, and has traumatic flashbacks involving it. That's it for her character in that game.

The number of people who have no idea about Paz in MGS5 actually is amazing. Paz isn't even a character in the game in all truth. Her being a rape victim isn't even mentioned in TPP. She's not sexualized in her story, unless your turned on by nasty scars and lots of blood.
Daeoc
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:50 PM)
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Can't wait
- J - D -
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond

And better in Peace Walker.



One step forward, 5 steps back. brb time to photoshoot wit Paz.
Veelk
Banned
(01-26-2017, 07:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Fork

Portraying sexualized women (or men) isn't a bad thing. Men have been "sexually objectified" in mgs games. It doesn't matter at all to the real world because it's fiction. Nobody "oogles" at Quiet in-game and thinks they can do it in real life to women without real consequences because most of us aren't inept sociopaths.

Murder in games doesn't cause murder in real life, "dehumanizing" fictional characters doesn't dehumanize people in real life, unless someone is a psycho and takes fiction seriously in which case the problem is with them.

No, sexually objectification is different from mere sexualization. I would have no problem with sexualization, but that's not what this is. This is objectification. Learn the difference.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/...s-objectified/

That doesn't completely fit to what MGS, but it mostly does for the purposes of illustrating the difference between objectification and mere sexualization. In a lot of the MGS examples, the women aren't titillating for any particular reason in the game. It's just for the sake of male gaze. The only example that's actually arguable is EVA, who is using her sexuality to try and influence Big Boss. But otherwise, they're just scantily clad for no reason whatsoever except male gaze. And Mei is the worst example of it, since Snake oogles her even though she's dressed relatively normally, which is the pinnacle example of what sexual objectification does.
hydrophilic attack
(01-26-2017, 07:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond

And better in Peace Walker.

Peace Walker was better than 4, but not by much

Sexual harassment was basically a running gag in Peace Walker
RM8
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Fork

Because 90% of games have crappy characters because game writing is mostly meh compared to TV/film. If people were really upset about characters "in general" than there wouldn't be a sole focus on Quiet, it would just be bitching about mgs5 as a whole.

For some reason people take Quiet seriously though and see it as a slight against them personally, even though the people most upset about it are probably men. Women don't give a shit because they're capable of making their own decisions about what media they consume, and if MGS isn't one of those they're not losing any sleep over it.



Portraying sexualized women (or men) isn't a bad thing. Men have been "sexually objectified" in mgs games. It doesn't matter at all to the real world because it's fiction. Nobody "oogles" at Quiet in-game and thinks they can do it in real life to women without real consequences because most of us aren't inept sociopaths.

Murder in games doesn't cause murder in real life, "dehumanizing" fictional characters doesn't dehumanize people in real life, unless someone is a psycho and takes fiction seriously in which case the problem is with them.

I don't take Quiet seriously, I point and laugh from outside, especially as people try to convince me that this is sophisticated art and not big budget Onechanbara, lol.
whalleywhat
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond

If wanting to see some virtual titties is a sin, we all going to Hell.

You see, the Church used have an extraordinary amount of control over the reproductive lives of Western civilizations, and much of this was done by attaching shame and guilt to natural biological drives. In 2017, the number of practising Christians is extraordinarily small, so other people need to take up this function, but now in the name of progress.

Originally Posted by hydrophilic attack

Peace Walker was better than 4, but not by much

Sexual harassment was basically a running gag in Peace Walker

Weltall Zero
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by meltingparappa

Good lord, yes, Kojima is clearly a sexual predator waiting to pounce, and as a civil society, we must stop him from putting another character in a bikini.

For the record, Stefanie Joosten expressed in countless occasions how she loved the character, Kojima and being a part of the project.

But of course, maybe someone will hand-wave an actual woman and human being's words, accomplishment, art away by saying she was coerced by a man, just like in threads referencing Bayonetta's character designer.

That's a fair point, and I'm the first to confront people with the fact that Bayonetta's character designer is a female that's proud of their work, when they criticise Bayonetta for being sexualized (usually, this really means "naughty", and often, this criticism comes from men) and assume she was designed by a horny man. But that doesn't invalidate the opinions of other women who may object to the portrayal of these characters, and there seem to be more that object to Quiet than Bayonetta (which in fact seems to be cheerfully vindicated by many).

For the record, I think there is a large difference between Bayonetta, a main character that owns every aspect of her sexuality and is empowered in every possible sense of the word, and Quiet, a non-player character forced to dress in rags for the flimsiest of plot reasons and put into near-rape and murder situations. For that matter, it also not quite the same, in terms of creative input, to be the mo-cap and voice actress for a character (that is nearly mute at that) than to be its actual designer, especially when it's precisely its design that is at the center of the controversy.
akira28
Banned
(01-26-2017, 07:52 PM)
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I'm just happy Kojima-san hasn't given up on sexualized women.

The deep background story is the icing on the cake.
Basketball
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:53 PM)
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People acting like a big chunk of the females in the games did not play a ginormous role the game's story.
Even more so than Snake at times.
HonMirin
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:53 PM)
Now that the dust has settled... Was anyone truly ashamed of their words and deeds?

OT, Kojima just write interesting characters and dial back on the T and A.
DooMAGE
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by - J - D -

I wish Kojima would just jerk off in the bathroom beforre attending design meetings for his games.

lmao
Mivey
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:54 PM)
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I would say "Never change, Kojima", but I don't think he could if he wanted to.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
(01-26-2017, 07:54 PM)
Quiet was an utter failure, but he's succeeded at it before.

Just not to the levels of Yoko Taro.
RM8
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by whalleywhat

You see, the Church used have an extraordinary amount of control over the reproductive lives of Western civilizations, and much of this was done by attaching shame and guilt to natural biological drives. In 2017, the number of practising Christians is extraordinarily small, so other people need to take up this function, but now in the name of progress.



When will society stop shaming men who like women!?
bishopcruz
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by - J - D -



One step forward, 5 steps back. brb time to photoshoot wit Paz.

That's a joke and not to be taken seriously so it doesn't count. That's why Miller's scene doesn't count so it's only fair.
Pinko Marx
Banned
(01-26-2017, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond

If wanting to see some virtual titties is a sin, we all going to Hell.

Theres a few problems here that I don't think you're grasping.

1) Kojima's need to justify his perviness. Just say you like anime tiddies and move on.

2) His increasing perviness. Its been getting worse and Quiet was some never before seen levels of perviness. I'm all for smut in video games, but don't try to sell me smut while at the same time trying to be some high concept art piece. It doesn't work that way Kojima.

3) Quiet was nothing more than a pair of tiddies.
3a) AND SHE WAS THE ONLY FEMALE CHARACTER. Tf Kojima?

Kojima needs to either get laid or drop the pretense that he's trying to elevate the industry or someshit. He could just go back to Konami where he can work on adding SEXUAL VIOLENCE to MGS Pachinko.
I say this as a huge MGS fan, its one of the best series in gaming, 1-3 specifically. Sexual ity is not new to MGS, but its never been more overt and out of place than in V with Quiet. She existed ONLY to give the player a boner. This is a series that its known for its storytelling, and we get Quiet in its final hour.
Bustanen
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pinko Marx

The world must be spared another character as bad as Quiet. Its important.

As bad as the story in MGSV was, Quiet was the only character with a decent story.
Ketkat
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by bishopcruz

The number of people who have no idea about Paz in MGS5 actually is amazing. Paz isn't even a character in the game in all truth. Her being a rape victim isn't even mentioned in TPP. She's not sexualized in her story, unless your turned on by nasty scars and lots of blood.


Really. She's not sexualized at all? And I'm fairly sure her being a rape victim was in fact mentioned. But that might have been ground zeroes, I played them really close to each other.

http://i.imgur.com/6r0wj58.gif

http://i.imgur.com/mSEyfyq.png

These were on an earlier page (don't want to imbed them again since they were already here once), and they're pretty relevant again.
Kindekuma
Banned
(01-26-2017, 07:56 PM)

Originally Posted by Basketball

People acting like a big chunk of the females in the games did not play a ginormous role the game's story.
Even more so than Snake at times.

Women definitely have some of the largest roles when it comes to pushing the story. The Boss basically caused the events of the whole rest of the saga to exist. Paz, Strangelove, Emma, and Naomi definitely have huge impact with their roles.
Village
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crossing Eden

You realize that even with a changed outfit we're still dealing with a character who's solely written to justify said outfit, who still animalistic poses in a helicopter like a cat in heat, who has to have two literally trophy color options unlocked before you can unlock a reasonable outfit, who's outfits don't actually work in cutscenes without mods, absolutely NOTHING about the controversy or criticism o Quiet is manufactured in anyway shape or form.


Which was answered in that post, the extent of Paz's characterization, because it's borderline non-existent, is that she's a torture/rape victim who's body was exploited by the creator for shock value.

I don't think you are explaining Quiet and Paz in complete way.

Quiet is a girl you meet who is magically in love with you like paz was magically in love you because.... reasons. And this magically in love with you woman is magically naked all the time because reasons. And the reasons they explain to you as to why she is naked makes no sense because there is a character with the exact same disease earlier in the series with full armor. Also magically sex lady that is madly in love with you can't talk back , because if she talks back to you she will die. So she can't actually talk back to you, along with that how you meet your lovely waifu to be is by literally beating the cold shit out of her and when she knows that she will then be a prisoner of war trying to end her own life thinking of the tortures she might go through you stop her to take her home so she can live in your literal dungeon in a cage where she is subjected to the male gaze. But she's super into it and she loves you because by rocking her shit you showed her that you are to looked up to and loved.

Paz, This a victim of sexual assault that is literally turned into a waifu that you can plaster all over your base. Along with this , she is brought back to life through your psyche so you can then see and interact with said waifu again and she conveys to you how she was infact your waifu and how infact she loved you because you are the coolest guy in the land. And don't really address the sexual assault part they used as a emotional device with this character. That because of the nature of the incident that caused her death , makes her whole ordeal inherently pointless but to provide some resume of shock because they took your waifu away. Not the whole sexual assault thing . Please mind the fact they could have just put the bomb into the stomach of chico and the story still would have worked. But you know, they took your waifu away , isn't that sad. Not the horrible stuff that happened before that.


I have found Venom Snake's true form

An uninteresting personality less husk of a character , who is your protagonist you are supposed to project on. While his female supporting cast, fall in love with him despite having no actual interesting personalty quirks. While they literally die, and get sexually assaulted to make the protagonist look better. By having him being upset at those things happening... instead of you know... having the characters who went through such trauma... deal with those things.
HeelPower
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:56 PM)
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Why not just present competent powerful women in your world who dont have to pass the eye candy test ?

Kojima is really disappointing in this regard.
He hasnt revealed a single female character & he's already talking about this ?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
(01-26-2017, 07:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Fork

Because 90% of games have crappy characters because game writing is mostly meh compared to TV/film. If people were really upset about characters "in general" than there wouldn't be a sole focus on Quiet, it would just be bitching about mgs5 as a whole.

Games having crappy characters typically have nothing to do with the fact that a man is a man, a woman being a crappy character usually has a lot to do with the way she's written and represented. An extreme example being Quiet, nothing about her makes sense yet everything about her is there to justify a character design that she wouldn't be wearing if she was allowed to be something more than a silent woman meant to be ogled at b the player.

For some reason people take Quiet seriously though and see it as a slight against them personally, even though the people most upset about it are probably men. Women don't give a shit because they're capable of making their own decisions about what media they consume, and if MGS isn't one of those they're not losing any sleep over it.

There are countless articles written about how terrible Quiet is written by both men and women yet you're trying to craft the narrative that it's only men complaining about her? Really?


Portraying sexualized women (or men) isn't a bad thing.

Context matters. In this context, it is a bad thing.

[QUOTE[Men have been "sexually objectified" in mgs games.[Q/UOTE]
Sexualization skews disproportionately towards the male gaze in MGS, more so as the series went on.

It doesn't matter at all to the real world because it's fiction.

This is stupid logic, as if the constant objectification of women in this medium hasn't had a devastating effect on a large part of the communities views about women, for a perfect example of this, consider that people are currently attempting to defend a depiction of a woman solely written to justify her wearing a thong and bikini while ironically questioning whether or not there's something wrong with the constant objectification of women in this medium.
whalleywhat
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

When will society stop shaming men who like women!?

We have nothing to lose but our chains!
Alienous
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:58 PM)
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Kojima made this canon.
7roject28
Member
(01-26-2017, 07:59 PM)

Originally Posted by King Tubby

It's funny because 90% of people's issues with Quiet could've been solved by just giving her clothes.

Well, also not having her look longingly at Snake all the time in the chopper.

Or if she was a stick figure. Then it would be considered funny because stick figures are funny even though the stick figure is doing sexualized movements or if the camera pans around stick figure's sticks.
Pinko Marx
Banned
(01-26-2017, 08:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by HeelPower

Why not just present competent powerful women in your world who dont have to pass the eye candy test ?

Kojima is really disappointing in this regard.
He hasnt revealed a single female character & he's already talking about this ?

Maybe Quiet backfired and it is Kojima who is now ashamed of his words and deeds.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
(01-26-2017, 08:00 PM)

Originally Posted by HonMirin

Now that the dust has settled... Was anyone truly ashamed of their words and deeds?

OT, Kojima just write interesting characters and dial back on the T and A.

Neva!
kadab
Member
(01-26-2017, 08:00 PM)
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Is there a Female character in the Metal gear universe Hideo Kojima didnt sexualize?
Spring-Loaded
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(01-26-2017, 08:00 PM)
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Can we at least get a character halfway between The Boss and Quiet? Quiet acted more like a cat than a human謡hy couldn't she pantomime for a pen and paper when she needed to communicate vital stuff?

I just hope for someone who's a character first and foremost rather than something to be ogled. EVA, Meryl, etc. were sexy and managed to be feel like more than eye candy
Weltall Zero
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(01-26-2017, 08:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by whalleywhat

Good god what drivel. "I need a story about a genetically altered super-soldier, but one that doesn't impose unrealistic body images on women." Just hang out in Outer Heaven, it's a freaking Benetton ad.

If your point is that Metal Gear is supposed to be an escapist fantasy ungrounded on reality, I'd love for you to explain the constant references to real-world military elements, from the START treaties and criticism of nuclear weapon proliferation in MGS1 to the rise of PMCs in MGS4. If MGS can be (deservedly) lauded for raising awareness about the ugly realities of the military-industrial complex, it can be criticised for failing to pass even the lowest bar for sexism.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
(01-26-2017, 08:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Alienous



Kojima made this canon.

Note:as far as the player was concerned she was 16 in this scene.
Gold_Loot
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(01-26-2017, 08:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

Why is disliking crappy effortless characters "being triggered"?

The main problem I have personally is people (GAF) are only judging characters by the way they look, the color of Thier skin, or how they dress. Not for the characters themselves or how the world they anhabbit treats them..

Yes, Quiet looks ridiculous. Yes, Cydny attire's is overkill. But the characters are interesting (sometimes anyways) and they are treated respectfully in these games.

Just like the upcoming Days Gone. It's pretty hypocritical to judge the main character by his looks alone and not what his personality is or what he brings to the table. Yet if that was a female, or a minority , it wouldn't matter how dull , dry or dare I say "generic" that character is.

Yes, more variety and representation is a good thing. But the 'push back' people aren't doing themselves any favors by shouting "teh generic white guy" without knowing anything about the characters themselves..

Isn't that like, Not what we're supposed to be doing?
flkraven
Member
(01-26-2017, 08:01 PM)
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How many compelling female characters will DS have that aren't overly sexualized? How integral will the be to game?

I think Kojima should try doing that first, before trying to legitimize sexualized women with 'deep backgrounds'.
Weltall Zero
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(01-26-2017, 08:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Spring-Loaded

Can we at least get a character halfway between The Boss and Quiet?

Why would you want a halfway point between perfection and shit?
Euphor!a
Banned
(01-26-2017, 08:03 PM)

Originally Posted by Weltall Zero

If your point is that Metal Gear is supposed to be an escapist fantasy ungrounded on reality, I'd love for you to explain the constant references to real-world military elements, from the START treaties and criticism of nuclear weapon proliferation in MGS1 to the rise of PMCs in MGS4.

So... it can't be both?
King Kye
Banned
(01-26-2017, 08:03 PM)
Hmm... Kojima doesn't get it.

So weird this guy created 'The Boss'.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
(01-26-2017, 08:03 PM)

Originally Posted by HonMirin

Now that the dust has settled... Was anyone truly ashamed of their words and deeds?

OT, Kojima just write interesting characters and dial back on the T and A.

Women can be super sexy and be interesting, too!
Skux
Member
(01-26-2017, 08:03 PM)
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Well the first thing he can do is actually let the female characters talk.
John Kowalski
Banned
(01-26-2017, 08:03 PM)

Originally Posted by Weltall Zero

Why would you want a halfway point between perfection and shit?

MTV generation
Spring-Loaded
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(01-26-2017, 08:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Weltall Zero

Why would you want a halfway point between perfection and shit?

Because it's better than just shit, and there's no indication we're getting perfection in this game.
whalleywhat
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(01-26-2017, 08:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Weltall Zero

If your point is that Metal Gear is supposed to be an escapist fantasy ungrounded on reality, I'd love for you to explain the constant references to real-world military elements, from the START treaties and criticism of nuclear weapon proliferation in MGS1 to the rise of PMCs in MGS4. If MGS can be (deservedly) lauded for raising awareness about the ugly realities of the military-industrial complex, it can be criticised for failing to pass even the lowest bar for sexism.

No my point is that if The Boss was 300 pounds she would've washed out in basic training. If your only criticism about these characters is "but they're skinny," kindly stop wasting my time.

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