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Trup1aya
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:16 AM)

Originally Posted by SURGEdude

The thing is as DRM has been reduced the market as grown. Perhaps there's a correlation, perhaps not.But having been involved with PC gamers for decades my anecdotal belief is there is a correlation.

You seem to be aware that correlation = causation.

The market has grown because gaming on PC has become a better experience all around, with services like Steam streamlining the process and helping to make PC the most cost effective way to play.


Originally Posted by Deathknell

They better spend those 100k € in games additional features.

Wanna fight piracy? Make sure your game is good, simple as that.

Only bad games get pirated?

Having a good game might financially insulate you a bit from the effects of piracy. But it's not an anti-theft.
Last edited by Trup1aya; 02-01-2017 at 11:18 AM.
ISee
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by spindoc

Stop by the Indie gaming thread sometime, you'll get your mind blown by what's on offer.

I'm just mocking him because of his I don't play 'AAA DRM protected' games because I can't freely copy them attitude. It is a ridiculous as saying indie games are shit because they are indies.
DRM is sadly needed, but most of Gaf seems to think it isn't because witcher 3 sold well enough. Which is also a bit ridiculous.
RE7 will still sell but the hype wasn't huge and the good worth of mouth started just after release with the crack out now sales won't be as good as they could have been.
Trup1aya
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:21 AM)

Originally Posted by spindoc

You're arguing with the basis that DRM is eventually removed. It's not except for the few rare handful of times.

I'm not though. I'm arguing that the EXISTANCE of Denuvo is good for publishers and therefore, the industry.

What's bad is that publishers don't know when to turn it off. That's not a problem with Denuvo, that's a problem with the publisher.

It's not that Denuvo needs to die. It serves a great purpose. Publishers just need to smarten up.
bltn
Junior Member
(02-01-2017, 11:21 AM)
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Cool, then it's time to patch it out of the game for the legitimate owners.
FrozenCell
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by Deathknell

They better spend those 100k € in games additional features.

Wanna fight piracy? Make sure your game is good, simple as that.

a fraction of it would be better spent on making it available on Linux, macOS & SteamOS
IronicSonic
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:26 AM)
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Are there some insurance involved in this case?
KojiKnight
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by Occam

I would not buy a game with an expiration date built-in by Denuvo.
Glad that the console version of Resident Evil 7 is free of this DRM/malware.

One drm for another.
opricnik
Banned
(02-01-2017, 11:29 AM)

Originally Posted by Kudo

Shame a major hit like RE7 was the first one, hopefully Denuvo can come up with something clever to make it harder to crack while staying invisible to performance.

First one?

Denuvo get cracked/bypassed since forever
SURGEdude
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Trup1aya

You seem to be aware that correlation = causation.

The market has grown because gaming on PC has become a better experience all around, with services like Steam streamlining the process and helping to make PC the most cost effective way to play.




Only bad games get pirated?

Having a good game might financially insulate you a bit from the effects of piracy. But it's not an anti-theft.

I pointed out it was an anecdote, with all the requisite background. But the point itself still stands, you can say Steam but it was already there and well respected even a decade ago in '07.

DRM hell and having it install drivers and randomly decide not to run on perfectly clean PCs was so much of an issue SecuROM got the hate it did.

Every PC switcher thread is full of people who claim to have had to jump through hoops to get shit running way back, and they are telling others PC gaming is a nightmare. I choose to believe most of those people are being honest. Some of them may be just not be skilled in anything beyond the absolute PC basics, but I think many of them dealt with the fucking DRM hell of the 2000's.

Registry edits, phony drivers, limited installs, and even more nefarious shit was commonplace for years. Fuck that.
Corpsepyre
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:40 AM)
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That's one hell of a PR statement right there. I wouldn't want to be Denuvo right now. Capcom must have paid a hefty sum for this 'protection'.
Trup1aya
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:42 AM)

Originally Posted by SURGEdude

I pointed out it was an anecdote, with all the requisite background. But the point itself still stands, you can say Steam but it was already there and well respected even a decade ago in '07.

DRM hell and having it install drivers and randomly decide not to run on perfectly clean PCs was so much of an issue SecuROM got the hate it did.

Every PC switcher thread is full of people who claim to have had to jump through hoops to get shit running way back, and they are telling others PC gaming is a nightmare. I choose to believe most of those people are being honest. Some of them may be just not be skilled in anything beyond the absolute PC basics, but I think many of them dealt with the fucking DRM hell of the 2000's.

Registry edits, phony driver's, limited installs, and even more nefarious shit was commonplace for years. Fuck that.

I'm sorry man, there are SO many more important factors that go into someone's decision to get into PC gaming, that I can't accept that DRM has had any meaningful impact on the growth of the platform.

It mostly boils down to dollars and cents. Being a PC gamers is potentially much cheaper AND it's approaching console levels of simplicity. That's really what it boils down to.

Now, DRM might have added to the COMPLEXITY of being a PC gamer. But even that has gotten simpler as PC has grown.
Last edited by Trup1aya; 02-01-2017 at 11:45 AM.
Coriolanus
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by ISee

DRM is sadly needed, but most of Gaf seems to think it isn't because witcher 3 sold well enough. Which is also a bit ridiculous.

Steam's top sellers in 2016

In the top 15, youve got 4 always online titles, which makes denuvo redundant, and exactly 1 denuvo title: total war warhammer. All the rest was cracked at release, if memory serves. And yet they still sold very well indeed.

It isn't w3 that indicates that denuvo isn't needed: it is steam itself. Steam's drm solution is enough, and fine with most people.
Last edited by Coriolanus; 02-01-2017 at 11:46 AM.
prudislav
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheSpoiler

If you read the OP, and the article, they actually mention the "no refund" thing, which is a central point of confusion.

i am actually surprised people thought its real thing as it was obvious bullshit coming from some random reddit post

Originally Posted by SURGEdude

These are mostly the SecuROM assholes so they can get fucked. The amount of time I spent fixing that fucking malware/DRM is enough for me to hope they catastrophically fail.

Again.

+1 ;-)

Originally Posted by ISee

So you don't play games since 2007. Okay.

well pretty much all old securom 7 (same creators as Denuvo) protected titles from the past are now unplayable because of the DRM without disabling some windows security policies or the use of cracked bianries and even then there are some problematic cases
... like for me was GTA4 on steam ..... even if you use some microsoft dark magic and gfwl necromacy and somehow securom allows you to get in games in can on legic steam version randomly trigger the "drunken driving antipiracy" thing screwing with the gameplay .... took me more then 2 hours to try to run it the legal way without succumbing to the "Yarr" methods (which by the way can the problems in seconds)
Sakujou
Banned
(02-01-2017, 11:51 AM)
cracking has always been a thing. you can only make a game uncrackable if it needs always-on-measure, which is stupid.

people, who crack the game, wont buy the game, so...

sad for capcom, but they make the majority of their sales on consoles, which is still a huge portion.
SURGEdude
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Trup1aya

I'm sorry man, there are SO many more important factors that go into someone's decision to get into PC gaming, that I can't accept that DRM has had any meaningful impact on the growth of the platform.

It mostly boils down to dollars and cents. Being a PC gamers is potentially much cheaper AND it's approaching console levels of simplicity. That's really what it boils down to.

Now, DRM might have added to the COMPLEXITY of being a PC gamer. But even that has gotten simpler as PC has grown.

Other than the totally nebulous "so many factors" That's fair, I only used anecdotal personal situations to construct most of my argument.

But you, as a fellow PC gamer, must remember what a bitch some of the super invasive DRM schemes were in the '00 for many people.Perhaps I'm wrong about its overall impact but it was there, and widely condemned by gamers.
Last edited by SURGEdude; 02-01-2017 at 11:56 AM. Reason: changed have to must line 5.
MrCunningham
Member
(02-01-2017, 11:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Gamezone

I don`t think this will impact their sales in a huge way.

I'm with you on this one.
NeoRaider
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:07 PM)
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Stop trying Denuvo.
Diprosalic
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Renekton

Was there any proof that the will-buy-if-no-crack demographic is insignificant or nonexistant?

i'd like to see some statistics just from my anectodal evidence i noticed students and friends buy more because they can't pirate them.
Kuosi
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:12 PM)
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Considering Denuvo is expensive it's quite likely Capcom actually lost money on this, pretty bad press for Denuvo and no I don't have anything against Denuvo, I own multiple games with it.
dose
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by KojiKnight

One drm for another.

Please tell us what drm there is on the console version that would stop us from playing the game years down the line.
Last edited by dose; 02-01-2017 at 12:18 PM.
Vash63
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by toddhunter

You just asked and answered your own question.

In this case? A week is still more than good enough, although the whole "no VR on PC" thing will probably hurt sales somewhat in the long run (People would have held off I imagine). That is on Capcom though.

As an HTC Vive owner, being left out for VR was a key factor in me not buying the game. I spend way too much money on my PC for Capcom to be giving features to a $300 game console and keeping them out of the PC version.
Trup1aya
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:20 PM)

Originally Posted by SURGEdude

Other than the totally nebulous "so many factors" That's fair, I only used anecdotal personal situations to construct most of my argument.

But you, as a fellow PC gamer, must remember what a bitch some of the super invasive DRM schemes were in the '00 for many people.Perhaps I'm wrong about its overall impact but it was there, and widely condemned by gamers.

Well, yeah, all the crap is PART of why i stopped playing on PC :)

But I think the main factors for PC growth is net infrastructure making digital distribution more viable, which lead to the rise of Steam (which proved that the PC gaming UX could have all the convieniences of console gaming w/o the limitations), which all acted to reduce publishing costs- which allows for lower priced PC games, and for devs to be less risk averse- which leads to a massively diverse catalog.

I am actually looking into getting back into PC gaming, because it's just so damn good now. Even with Denuvo.
Last edited by Trup1aya; 02-01-2017 at 12:24 PM.
keraj37
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:21 PM)
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GOG in shiny armor comes with help!
Bluth54
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by JaseC

Valve would rather publishers continue to make an effort to actually address problematic markets as it considers piracy to be a service problem and, naturally, has the data to support this. Even RE7's region-specific pricing isn't the best -- it's actually more than USD$60 in many regions where it should be cheaper, which is exactly the sort of tone deafness that compels people to pirate.

Valve does think that way but you have to admit that if Valve offered a Denuvo like DRM for free as pat of the Steamworks package many developers and publishers would love it considering many pay a lot of money to use Denuvo.

I wonder that if Valve did integrate a Denuvo like DRM into the Steam client it could do a better job of protecting a game since they could more closely integrate it with Steam than any third party solution. I don't know enough to say either way.
nynt9
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:28 PM)
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I really wonder if the rumored expensive cost of denuvo is actually worth the nebulous and unprovable lost sales to piracy. Because denuvo suddenly makes people who would pirate a game actually but it, because every pirate is actually someone who was going to buy the game right? Man, denuvo's snake oil marketing and all the piracy fear mongering must have really done a number on the industry.
pswii60
(02-01-2017, 12:28 PM)
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I'm still of the mindset that most pirates only play stuff they can get for free, so this will have little impact.

People who buy games will buy games.
Spukc
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by NeoRaider

Stop trying Denuvo.

Yeah people should just pirate everything ?
texhnolyze
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Occam

I would not buy a game with an expiration date built-in by Denuvo.
Glad that the console version of Resident Evil 7 is free of this DRM/malware.

Originally Posted by dose

Please tell us what drm there is on the console version that would stop us from playing the game years down the line.

Yeah, good luck keeping your PS4 in a good condition 20 years later.

Mine will be long gone already by then.
Gamezone
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:34 PM)
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This is why we end up with always online DRM in games like Steep, Need for Speed, For Honor, and so on. That`s pretty much impossible to crack, and the publishers are very well aware of that. I rather have Denuvo than that crap.
Liethe
Junior Member
(02-01-2017, 12:35 PM)
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"Given the fact that every unprotected title is cracked on the day of release - as well as every update of games - our solution made a difference for this title."

I mean, you're technically not wrong but... jesus, lol. This is a bit desperate.
nubbe
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:36 PM)
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Hackers know how it works now
It is a dead product
Bluth54
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by nynt9

I really wonder if the rumored expensive cost of denuvo is actually worth the nebulous and unprovable lost sales to piracy. Because denuvo suddenly makes people who would pirate a game actually but it, because every pirate is actually someone who was going to buy the game right? Man, denuvo's snake oil marketing and all the piracy fear mongering must have really done a number on the industry.

I'm sure there are some people who are willing to buy a game if they can't pirate it but I doubt it's a huge number. Most people probably either fall into piracy only or buy only but we'll never get to know for sure.
Abilidebob
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:36 PM)

Originally Posted by ISee

I'm just mocking him because of his I don't play 'AAA DRM protected' games because I can't freely copy them attitude. It is a ridiculous as saying indie games are shit because they are indies.
DRM is sadly needed, but most of Gaf seems to think it isn't because witcher 3 sold well enough. Which is also a bit ridiculous.
RE7 will still sell but the hype wasn't huge and the good worth of mouth started just after release with the crack out now sales won't be as good as they could have been.

Is it really "sadly needed"? Before Denuvo, games were getting cracked in a few hours, and that's been going on for years, which basically means that DRM is pretty much useless. And yet PC gaming has been thriving and getting bigger over the years. It's not like Denuvo games suddenly get 3 times more sales, so I can safely say that if all DRM was simply stripped from PC games today, the industry would go on just the same, as there's no difference between a game without DRM and a game with DRM that will be cracked in 3 hours.
spineduke
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:38 PM)

Originally Posted by Gamezone

This is why we end up with always online DRM in games like Steep, Need for Speed, For Honor, and so on. That`s pretty much impossible to crack, and the publishers are very well aware of that. I rather have Denuvo than that crap.

Here's the kicker, all those titles you just mentioned will have both. Congrats!
Gamezone
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Liethe

I mean, you're technically not wrong but... jesus, lol. This is a bit desperate.

Yeah, the pirates probably run towards their local gaming shop.
Yudoken
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:41 PM)
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I don't believe that a denuvo helps to sell a lot more copies than it's worth it.

It also causes people to not buy games with that protection.

Those people who still do it don't buy games regularly.

Updates, patches and comfort and of course supporting the game with your purchase are just too important factors to miss them out.

Even if it's "just" a single-player game.
Last edited by Yudoken; 02-01-2017 at 12:43 PM.
Vipu
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kuosi

Considering Denuvo is expensive it's quite likely Capcom actually lost money on this, pretty bad press for Denuvo and no I don't have anything against Denuvo, I own multiple games with it.

Im pretty sure I have seen somewhere something like "if game is cracked before x days they dont have to pay denuvo" or something.
But I might remember wrong. Would make sense too.
Haunted
(02-01-2017, 12:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by SURGEdude

But you, as a fellow PC gamer, must remember what a bitch some of the super invasive DRM schemes were in the '00 for many people.Perhaps I'm wrong about its overall impact but it was there, and widely condemned by gamers.

Oh yeah, remember TAGES?

Remember Securom?

Fucking shit.
Gamezone
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:47 PM)
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I thought pirating was something people did 15-20 years ago. Pirating in this day and age sounds like a pain in the ass. We have weekly updates, patches, DLC and in-game online features. The good thing about Steam is that I can keep my 1000+ games in one library, and each game will update automaticly when it`s necessary.
Amey
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:48 PM)
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Denuvo: We Don’t Give Refunds When Games Get Cracked

“We can’t comment on our deals with specific customers, but we do not have any deals in place that offer refunds if a game is cracked within a specific time frame,”

Gamezone
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Amey

Denuvo: We Don’t Give Refunds When Games Get Cracked

Their statement about Resident Evil 7 had no refund written all over it.
Kuosi
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vipu

Im pretty sure I have seen somewhere something like "if game is cracked before x days they dont have to pay denuvo" or something.
But I might remember wrong. Would make sense too.

Yeh it would make sense and sit with their product profile which aims to protect initial sales, not to be "forever immune to piracy".

edit: and it seems that's not how it is:

He also said that there’s no truth to the rumor that Denuvo strikes deals with game publishers where, if their anti-piracy tech is cracked within a certain timeframe, publishers can get a refund. “We can’t comment on our deals with specific customers, but we do not have any deals in place that offer refunds if a game is cracked within a specific time frame,”

sauce
Last edited by Kuosi; 02-01-2017 at 01:04 PM.
JaseC
gave away the keys to the kingdom.
(02-01-2017, 12:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bluth54

Valve does think that way but you have to admit that if Valve offered a Denuvo like DRM for free as pat of the Steamworks package many developers and publishers would love it considering many pay a lot of money to use Denuvo.

Yeah, I'm sure it would be popular among AAA titles in particular (and select indies), but Valve's stance on protection is that it shouldn't come at the cost of a game belonging to the user, which a Denuvo-like solution, with its install limits, mandatory first-run online verification, and periodical re-verification, would run antithetical to.
Last edited by JaseC; 02-01-2017 at 12:53 PM.
horkrux
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(02-01-2017, 12:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vipu

Im pretty sure I have seen somewhere something like "if game is cracked before x days they dont have to pay denuvo" or something.
But I might remember wrong. Would make sense too.

One dude on reddit wrote that a while back. It's troll BS and wouldn't make any sense business-wise either.

But with games getting cracked so fast, who knows for how much longer they'll stay in business anyway.

Originally Posted by Gamezone

I thought pirating was something people did 15-20 years ago. Pirating in this day and age sounds like a pain in the ass. We have weekly updates, patches, DLC and in-game online features. The good thing about Steam is that I can keep my 1000+ games in one library, and each game will update automaticly when it`s necessary.

Well, they usually get patches and DLC too. They just have to download them themselves. As long as you have good internet, I think it's still viable for many.
Haunted
(02-01-2017, 12:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gamezone

I thought pirating was something people did 15-20 years ago. Pirating in this day and age sounds like a pain in the ass. We have weekly updates, patches, DLC and in-game online features. The good thing about Steam is that I can keep my 1000+ games in one library, and each game will update automaticly when it`s necessary.

Basically.

I'd argue that the double whammy of Steam aggressively pursuing competitive pricing in nascent gaming markets and the emergence of "games as a service" have contributed much more to curbing piracy than DRM that takes 1-3 weeks to crack instead of a day.


Pursuing aggressive DRM is like the music industry going after Napster and Kazaa. It's fighting the symptoms instead of the problem. The answers to piracy in that sector turned out to be Spotify, Amazon Music et al: usable, convenient and fairly-priced music services available to everyone instead of trying to sue and shut down file sharing networks.

As JaceC alluded to, Valve understood that and their unprecedented success in Eastern-European markets proved them right.
Last edited by Haunted; 02-01-2017 at 01:04 PM.
jmga
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:53 PM)

Originally Posted by Coriolanus

Steam's top sellers in 2016

In the top 15, youve got 4 always online titles, which makes denuvo redundant, and exactly 1 denuvo title: total war warhammer. All the rest was cracked at release, if memory serves. And yet they still sold very well indeed.

It isn't w3 that indicates that denuvo isn't needed: it is steam itself. Steam's drm solution is enough, and fine with most people.

Total War Warhammer is also out for Linux without DRM, pirates could just make a partition with Linux and play for free.
Trup1aya
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:55 PM)

Originally Posted by Abilidebob

Is it really "sadly needed"? Before Denuvo, games were getting cracked in a few hours, and that's been going on for years, which basically means that DRM is pretty much useless. And yet PC gaming has been thriving and getting bigger over the years. It's not like Denuvo games suddenly get 3 times more sales, so I can safely say that if all DRM was simply stripped from PC games today, the industry would go on just the same, as there's no difference between a game without DRM and a game with DRM that will be cracked in 3 hours.

No you can't "safely" say that at all

This makes no sense, just because the industry is thriving doesn't mean publishers should take no effort to protect their products from piracy.

There's no telling definitively how a game would sell if potential pirates/customers were presented with different options, unless you have the gift of peering into alternate universes. But you can say with certainty that anyone who wanted to steal RE7 couldn't do it within the first 5 days. So if someone want to be an early adopter they had to spend some money.
NeoRaider
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Spukc

Yeah people should just pirate everything ?

Never said that.
Denuvo or something else won't stop them.
KHlover
Member
(02-01-2017, 12:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Haunted

Oh yeah, remember TAGES?

Remember Securom?

Fucking shit.

Remember not being able to install games because the activation server didn't like your internet connection? Remember having limited activations? Remember the installer deciding that the mundane driver updates you just did count as hardware change and thus count against you activation limit?

*shudders*

Late 00's DRM was the worst.
Dapperk
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(02-01-2017, 12:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Occam

I would not buy a game with an expiration date built-in by Denuvo.
Glad that the console version of Resident Evil 7 is free of this DRM/malware.

What is the difference? Consoles are basically DRM boxes.

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