[Gek54]

So I tried the new Japanese GTHD demo and apparently they took out the force feedback support. I head on over to GTPlanet to see if anyone else is having the same problem and I find this lovely explination:

Hello everyone. Let's all be very clear on this. Right now Force Feedback will not work at all in any wheel that you have or are currently thinking about getting for your PS3. Anything you hear about guys making theirs work by voodoo magic are completely wrong and are messing with you. While most of the current wheels like the G25 and DFP work on the PS3 they just simply won't use FF. Imersion holds the patents to the technology and Sony lost the lawsuit over this earlier this year. Microsoft lost as well when they were sued and since have paid their fines and paid licensing for the use of their patents. Sony (as a company) being who they are just won't concede that they lost and use technology (rightfully or luckily) patented first by Immersion. There was a recent survey of gamers recently that had one interesting fact. 53% of gamers who bought a PS3 had no idea the controllers would be rumbleless. Now they are finding out that stuff that does have FF or rumble won't work either. As far as third parties being able to make controllers and games that have FF or rumble may certainly do so. It just better not be able to do so on a PS3 because it still has to be going through the PS3 console and that console legally has no right to use the rumble or FF technology. I'm sure this is being debated with the Sony and Immersion people in their battle, but sadly we just won't see FF or rumble in PS3's until Sony concedes. So, in the end it is the people at Sony in their stubborness that have given you an inferior product to what was or is currently available in the PS2 in terms of Force Feedback. I don't know about you guys, but I play GT4 allot and with a G25 wheel now and it's just awesome. To think that GT5 will probably be a thing of beauty once it comes out in 2008 and that FF is unlikely to be around is just a clear shame and I for one am feircely disapointed. Sorry for the rant, but I'm bummed at this. Cheers

doh

Is this for real? What the hell is the point of Gran Turismo without TFF wheel support!?!?!? When does the bad news stop?

[DarienA]

Sony iz doomed.

Ok we can close the thread now.

I find that 53% a bit high considering all the VG mags have been screaming about the lack of rumble since that information came to light.

[drohne]

sounds like bullshit. afaik the immersion patent refers to a method of generating rumble with motors, and i don't see how it'd apply to force-feedback steering wheels.

though on the other hand, it is pretty weird that gthd supports multiple ff wheels, but doesn't have any ff...

[Gek54]

sounds like bullshit. afaik the immersion patent refers to a method of generating rumble with motors, and i don't see how it'd apply to force-feedback steering wheels.

Thats how wheels generate feedback. There is an immersion logo on my DFP and G25 box.

[Gigglepoo]

I find that 53% a bit high considering all the VG mags have been screaming about the lack of rumble since that information came to light.

Dude, people thought the PS3 was going to cost under $200. People are bloody morons.

[WindyMan]

I had totally not realized this about the DFP. I was salivating over the prospect of (eventually) playing GT5 on my HDTV with my wheel, but it looks like that's not going to happen.

Sony, why do you hate your audience so?

edit: I think playing GT4 will make me feel better.

[drohne]

There is an immersion logo on my DFP and G25 box.

well shit. sony had better cave before gt5 comes out. gamepad rumble is worthless, but ff wheels aren't.

[Grayman]

KY will make it happen. *sob*

[Beer Monkey]

Does GT HD work with all USB Logitech wheels, even the crappy non-feedback variety?

[Tobor]

Does rumble work in PS2 games on PS3 with a Dual Shock 2?

[Gek54]

Does rumble work in PS2 games on PS3 with a Dual Shock 2?

No.

[Tobor]

No.

Ugh.

[Zaptruder]

well shit. sony had better cave before gt5 comes out. gamepad rumble is worthless, but ff wheels aren't.

Seriously. What the shit. Fix it now Sony you jerkwads.

[jet1911]

Suck if true. :/

[PantherLotus]

Not surprised. ForceFeedback = Rumble. Duh.

[Grayman]

How does a dfp/g25 feel without ff? I haven't owned a wheel without force feedback. Does the wheel still have tension on it?

[Zaptruder]

Not surprised. ForceFeedback = Rumble. Duh.

Not the same technology.

One is done with belts that force the wheel left and right, the other is the effect of two spinning weights.

[PantherLotus]

Not the same technology. One is done with belts that force the wheel left and right, the other is the effect of two spinning weights.

riiiight. I'll pretend I know what you're talking about while pointing out that it still requires the same output (feedback signal) from the game. Since the PS3 doesn't do rumble, why would the games put out that signal?

For steering wheel feedback? Not happening.

[Yoboman]

They added it for what's essentially a peripheral in GT4, why can't they this time?

Then again, it's just a demo

[Tellaerin]

As far as third parties being able to make controllers and games that have FF or rumble may certainly do so. It just better not be able to do so on a PS3 because it still has to be going through the PS3 console and that console legally has no right to use the rumble or FF technology.

Sorry, but that doesn't seem right. Sony's unable to manufacture or bundle force feedback controllers that use Immersion's tech, but that shouldn't prevent them from providing generic driver support for FF devices in their games. AFAIK (though I admit I could be wrong here), they don't have proprietary rights to the concept of rumble itself, just the hardware by which it's implemented. That seems to be the basis of their case against Sony. Software that output signals to a controller which may (or may not) be equipped to translate them into vibration, and isn't guaranteed to be using Immersion's tech to do that even if it does, wouldn't seem to be infringing anything.

[Grayman]

riiiight. I'll pretend I know what you're talking about while pointing out that it still requires the same output (feedback signal) from the game. Since the PS3 doesn't do rumble, why would the games put out that signal? For steering wheel feedback? Not happening.

I was under impression that the patent was just over 2 spinning motors making feedback in a game controller and that didn't affect

a) having other forms of feedback
b) having feedback at all

sending a force feedback to a wheel at the level that gt4 was felt more advanced than what a rumble controller did so it would be seperate code too. The DFP will actually pull out of your hands and move in the opposite direction if you crash and the car starts spinning and going backwards. that isn't just a rumble affect.

[PantherLotus]

Sorry, but that doesn't seem right. Sony's unable to manufacture or bundle force feedback controllers that use Immersion's tech, but that shouldn't prevent them from providing generic driver support for FF devices in their games. AFAIK (though I admit I could be wrong here), they don't have proprietary rights to the concept of rumble itself, just the hardware by which it's implemented. That seems to be the basis of their case against Sony. Software that output signals to a controller which may (or may not) be equipped to translate them into vibration, and isn't guaranteed to be using Immersion's tech to do that even if it does, wouldn't seem to be infringing anything.

Right. But the idea that they would pursue adding something into the software that few people would ever get the chance to use is crazy.

[PantherLotus]

I was under impression that the patent was just over 2 spinning motors making feedback in a game controller and that didn't affect a) having other forms of feedback b) having feedback at all sending a force feedback to a wheel at the level that gt4 was felt more advanced than what a rumble controller did so it would be seperate code too. The DFP will actually pull out of your hands and move in the opposite direction if you crash and the car starts spinning and going backwards. that isn't just a rumble affect.

No, you're right. But the point is that it takes the code itself to output that signal which feels like rumble in the controller or FF in a wheel. Why would they put in feedback that only worked on wheels?

edit:
The point isn't whether or not an FF wheel would be legal, but that there is little reason to put the code in for a niche device. Then again, perhaps they could partner with the peripheral companies for this reason...

[Gek54]

I was under impression that the patent was just over 2 spinning motors making feedback in a game controller and that didn't affect a) having other forms of feedback b) having feedback at all

DFP only uses one motor and still it was licensed by immersion.

[Xamdou]

So force feedback with 1 or 2 motors in any shape or form is licensed by Immersion meaning Sony or any 3rd party cannot make any force feedback devices/rumble for the PS3 unless Sony caves in and settle the dispute with Immersion?

[JCBossman]

I'm pretty certain that NO heptatic(feedback) response of ANY type is allowed.Franklin Computer tried(and Lost) a similar deal, they Reversed Engineered and copied the Apple 2, saying they wern't selling "software" with it so Ok, No dice.

[Scottlarock]

you got to be kidding. Is this real? sony just pay up, you lost!

[Tellaerin]

I'm pretty certain that NO heptatic(feedback) response of ANY type is allowed.Franklin Computer tried(and Lost) a similar deal, they Reversed Engineered and copied the Apple 2, saying they wern't selling "software" with it so Ok, No dice.

Totally different case. What you're suggesting with Immersion and Sony would be more like a printer manufacturer demanding that a computer company stop providing software support for any printers that could be attached to their systems, because some of those printers might be translating the data sent by the computer into print using that printer company's technology.

[Crab Shaker]

Hi Gek.

[R3Z]

:lol How pathetic if true.

These decisions sony have made might save them money, but they detriment the consumer and we certainly dont see any savings.

Totally different case. What you're suggesting with Immersion and Sony would be more like a printer manufacturer demanding that a computer company stop providing software support for any printers that could be attached to their systems, because some of those printers might be translating the data sent by the computer into print using that printer company's technology.

I think to get the rumble to work they would need to use immersions sdk or their code which is a no no.

[Tellaerin]

I think to get the rumble to work they would need to use immersions sdk or their code which is a no no.

Heh, I don't think they'd have to use either of those. We're hardly talking about videocard drivers here - you could code FF support from scratch without looking at a single line of Immersion's code. I think it's more a question of whether or not they feel it's worth the effort under the circumstances. *shrug*

[BlueTsunami]

Immersion needs to die

[Scottlarock]

does anyone with the GTHD demo can verify this? I remember in past threads that FF didn't have anything to do with rumble or immersion.

[Zaptruder]

riiiight. I'll pretend I know what you're talking about while pointing out that it still requires the same output (feedback signal) from the game. Since the PS3 doesn't do rumble, why would the games put out that signal? For steering wheel feedback? Not happening.

You're a moron.

rumble is non-directional. There's a light rumble and heavy rumble and maybe even very heavy (spinning the light motor, heavy motor or both motors), or gradients between them...

but force feedback has to generate force on the belts as well as in a directional manner (pull left or right). The gradients as well as range for force feedback is also likely much greater than rumble.

Force feedback doesn't use the same code as rumble, so you should stop putting your foot in your mouth you dumb arrogant prick.

[Scottlarock]

Immersion needs to die

or sony needs to pay up.

[BlueTsunami]

or sony needs to pay up.

Doesn't seem like thats going to happen unfortunately

[JCBossman]

But you CAN"T just write your "OWN CODE" it's the idea that is worth something.Otherwise people could "Write" books like Harry Potter, change the name to something else and do so with other proper names.The simple fact is SONY as the GATEKEEPER is REQUIRED to make sure NO software, has ANY FF or Rumble. I guess if Sony said, "This system is wide open" like a PC there would be No one to sue.But then they would make ZERO off Thrid party software.s

[Ashodin]

You're a moron. rumble is non-directional. There's a light rumble and heavy rumble and maybe even very heavy (spinning the light motor, heavy motor or both motors), or gradients between them... but force feedback has to generate force on the belts as well as in a directional manner (pull left or right). The gradients as well as range for force feedback is also likely much greater than rumble. Force feedback doesn't use the same code as rumble, so you should stop putting your foot in your mouth you dumb arrogant prick.

FOR THE THOUSANDS IN ATTENDANCE

AND THE MILLIONS WATCHING AROUND THE WORLD

LLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEET'S GET READY TO RUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[kiUNiT]

You're a moron. rumble is non-directional. There's a light rumble and heavy rumble and maybe even very heavy (spinning the light motor, heavy motor or both motors), or gradients between them... but force feedback has to generate force on the belts as well as in a directional manner (pull left or right). The gradients as well as range for force feedback is also likely much greater than rumble. Force feedback doesn't use the same code as rumble, so you should stop putting your foot in your mouth you dumb arrogant prick.

WTF with the personal insults? point your anger at Sony or Immersion for filing a patent. He was pointing out that Immersion patented the use of game code to exert a physical reaction from an ingame action, not a patent for rumble hence the name of their company Immersion Corperation not Rumblerock.

this is from the front page of their website:

Overview

Immersion TouchSense® technology can transform any gaming experience into a more thrilling and realistic encounter by letting the player Feel the Game™ through their sense of touch. If you’re not taking advantage of Immersion products and technology for computer and console gaming platforms; arcade and simulation products; and casino and mobile gaming, you’re probably not giving users the best gaming experience possible. Let Immersion work with you to add a whole new dimension to your products.

We can also apply our expertise to help you design touch-enabled devices and touch effects into your products quickly and inexpensively. Our solutions include turn-key engineering, authoring tools, application programming interfaces, and the wide use of industry standards.



http://www.immersion.com/gaming/

[Tellaerin]

But you CAN"T just write your "OWN CODE" it's the idea that is worth something.Otherwise people could "Write" books like Harry Potter, change the name to something else and do so with other proper name.

Except that AFAIK, Immersion doesn't hold exclusive rights to the concept of rumble, merely the hardware used to implement the actual vibration. They can't say 'no software on your platform can output a signal that would make a controller rumble if it had FF hardware built into it,' especially since there's no guarantee that such a controller would even use Immersion's technology.

And no, you can't just rename a Harry Potter novel and say it's your work. But you can write your own fantasy novel about teen wizards - J.K. Rowling doesn't have a lock on the rights to the concept of the young adult fantasy novel, just a specific implementation thereof.

The simple fact is SONY as the GATEKEEPER is REQUIRED to make sure NO software, has ANY FF or Rumble. I guess if Sony said, "This system is wide open" like a PC there would be No one to sue.But then they would make ZERO off Thrid party software.

Stop shouting, JC. As far as I can see, you're wrong. Until I hear from someone better versed in US patent law than I am, I'm going to continue to think you're wrong, because what you're saying here really isn't making a whole lot of sense.

[Kapsama]

Can't Sony license Nintendo's rumble tech? Please...

[kiUNiT]

Someone owes JC and panther an apology, I dug a little deeper and it seems they do hold said patents for force feedback and most of the wheels that support it.






Console Gaming

The cornering forces of your stock car as it rounds corner three at Daytona. The impact of barreling into a pine tree at 40 miles per hour on your snowboard. The pounding of your heart as you infiltrate enemy lines. Gaming and force feedback technology are a natural fit. That's why Immersion TouchSense® technology works with game systems like the Sony PlayStation and PlayStation 2, the Nintendo Gamecube, and the Microsoft Xbox and Xbox 360. We work with video game console system makers, video game developers, and video game controller manufacturers to give gamers a more realistic and entertaining experience.

Learn about Immersion's next-generation vibration technology for next-generation gaming consoles.


From rumble vibrations to full force feedback, Immersion TouchSense technology can transform any game into a multisensory experience.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Feel The Game™" with Immersion-Licensed Console Products



Immersion Licensee Selected Console Hardware Products



Microsoft
www.microsoft.com Xbox Video Game System
Xbox Controller S




Logitech
www.logitech.com Driving Force Pro
Speed Force
NASCAR Racing Wheel
Cordless Action Controller for PlayStation 2
Extreme Action Controller
Thunderpad Controller for Xbox
Cordless Precision Controller for Xbox
NetPlay Controller




MadCatz
www.madcatz.com PS2 Dual Force 2 Controller
PS2 900 MHz Wireless Dual Force 2 Controller
PSX Dual Force Controller
PSX/PS2 DUAL Force Pro Controller
PSX Hand-Held Racing Wheel
PSX/PS2 MC2 Racing Wheel
Xbox Control Pad Pro
Xbox Control Pad
Xbox MC2 Racing Wheel
Gamecube Cubicon
Gamecube Control Pad Pro
N64 Analog Steering Wheel




Saitek
www.saitek.com PX3500 PlayStation Pad
PX4500 PlayStation Pad
PX5000 PlayStation Pad
Adrenalin Xbox Pad
Adrenalin Xbox Wheel
Adrenalin Xbox Joystick




Intec
www.inteclink.com
Lazer Wireless Controller
Mini Wireless Controller
Cyber Shock 2 Controller
Pro Mini 2
Turbo Shock 2 Controller
Cyber Pad 2 Controller
G-Force 2 Controller
Wireless Mini Smack Down Controller
Smack Down Controller
Wireless Racing Wheels
Xtreme FX Racing Wheel
Pro Mini 2 Racing Wheel




Nyko
www.nyko.com Air Flo EX for PlayStation2
Air Flo XL for PlayStation2
Air Flo EX for Xbox
Air Flo Wireless for Xbox




Joytech
www.joytech.co.uk Neo S Advanced Controller
Wireless Neo S Advanced Controller
Advanced Controller
Wireless Analog Controller
Advanced Analog Controller
Williams F1 Team Racing Wheel




Griffin / Datel
www.joytech.co.uk PS2 2.4GHz Wireless Controller
Dual Analog Chrome Controller
PlayStation 2 Wireless Controller
Advanced Controller for Xbox




Gemini / Philips Electronics
www.gemini-usa.com Recoil Pad
PS2 Freak Fleshy
PS2 Freak Beserker
PS2 Mini SpongeBob Pad
Xbox Freak Alien




Hip Interactive PS2 2.4 GHz Wireless Controller
PS2 Double Shock Controller
PS2 Hip Controller
PS2 Compact Controller
XB-Comm Wireless Controller
Xbox Compact Controller
Xbox GamePlayer Controller
Blockbuster HG
Xbox 2.4 GHz Wireless Controller
Cube 2.4 GHz Wireless Controller
Cube GamePlayer Controller




Radica
www.radicagames.com Gamester Phoenix
Gamester Wireless Phoenix
Gamester FPS Master
Gamester Race Pac
PS2 Lotus Dual Force Wheel
Xbox Compact Pro Pad




Thrustmaster
www.thrustmaster.com




SpectraVideo



http://www.immersion.com/gaming/vide...ms/console.php



PC Gaming Peripherals
The cornering forces of your stock car as it rounds corner three at Daytona. The impact of barreling into a pine tree at 40 miles per hour on your snowboard. The pounding of your heart as you infiltrate enemy lines. Gaming and force feedback technology are a natural fit. That's why Immersion TouchSense® technology works with PCs running Microsoft Windows and Apple MacOS, surrounding players with the sense of touch. We work with operating system makers, game developers, and game controller manufacturers to give gamers a more realistic and entertaining experience.


From rumble vibrations to full force feedback, Immersion TouchSense technology can transform any game into a multisensory experience.




"Feel The Game™" with Immersion-Licensed PC Gaming Products



Immersion Licensee Selected PC Hardware Products



Logitech
www.logitech.com Force 3D
Formula Force GP
NASCAR Racing Wheel
MOMO Racing
Cordless RumblePad 2
RumblePad 2 Vibration Feedback Gamepad




Microsoft
www.microsoft.com
SideWinder Force Feedback 2
SideWinder Force Feedback Pro
SideWinder Force Feedback Wheel (products discontinued)




Saitek
www.saitek.com Cyborg evo Force
Cyborg 3D Rumble Stick
R440 Force Feedback Wheel
P2500 Rumble Force Pad




Thrustmaster
www.thrustmaster.com Top Gun Fox 2 Pro Shock Joystick
Top Gun AfterBurner Force Feedback Joystick F1 Force Feedback Racing Wheel
Ferrari Force Feedback Wheel
Force Feedback GT
360 Modena Force Feedback Wheel
ThrustMaster FireStorm Dual Power Game Pad
Thrustmaster Upad 360 Modena Force




Gemini / Philips Electronics
www.gemini-usa.com
PC Axis Pad FX
PC Game Wheel
PC Recoil-Box




Hip Interactive Universal Racing Wheel




ACT Labs



http://www.immersion.com/gaming/vide...s_gamepads.php

[PantherLotus]

You're a moron. rumble is non-directional. There's a light rumble and heavy rumble and maybe even very heavy (spinning the light motor, heavy motor or both motors), or gradients between them... but force feedback has to generate force on the belts as well as in a directional manner (pull left or right). The gradients as well as range for force feedback is also likely much greater than rumble. Force feedback doesn't use the same code as rumble, so you should stop putting your foot in your mouth you dumb arrogant prick.

Completely uncalled for. I've been given week bans for much much less.

[Brosa]

Doesn't seem like thats going to happen unfortunately

Sony are paying 1.37% of their PS2 business in license fee quarterly since 2005 to Immersion. However Immersion seems to be wanting 5%...

Thornbob.com keeps track of the case: http://www.thornbob.com/index.html

[Scottlarock]

Someone owes JC and others an apology, I dug a little deeper and it seems they do hold said patents for force feedback and most of the wheels that support it. Console Gaming The cornering forces of your stock car as it rounds corner three at Daytona. The impact of barreling into a pine tree at 40 miles per hour on your snowboard. The pounding of your heart as you infiltrate enemy lines. Gaming and force feedback technology are a natural fit. That's why Immersion TouchSense® technology works with game systems like the Sony PlayStation and PlayStation 2, the Nintendo Gamecube, and the Microsoft Xbox and Xbox 360. We work with video game console system makers, video game developers, and video game controller manufacturers to give gamers a more realistic and entertaining experience. Learn about Immersion's next-generation vibration technology for next-generation gaming consoles. From rumble vibrations to full force feedback, Immersion TouchSense technology can transform any game into a multisensory experience. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Feel The Game™" with Immersion-Licensed Console Products Immersion Licensee Selected Console Hardware Products Microsoft www.microsoft.com Xbox Video Game System Xbox Controller S Logitech www.logitech.com Driving Force Pro Speed Force NASCAR Racing Wheel Cordless Action Controller for PlayStation 2 Extreme Action Controller Thunderpad Controller for Xbox Cordless Precision Controller for Xbox NetPlay Controller MadCatz www.madcatz.com PS2 Dual Force 2 Controller PS2 900 MHz Wireless Dual Force 2 Controller PSX Dual Force Controller PSX/PS2 DUAL Force Pro Controller PSX Hand-Held Racing Wheel PSX/PS2 MC2 Racing Wheel Xbox Control Pad Pro Xbox Control Pad Xbox MC2 Racing Wheel Gamecube Cubicon Gamecube Control Pad Pro N64 Analog Steering Wheel Saitek www.saitek.com PX3500 PlayStation Pad PX4500 PlayStation Pad PX5000 PlayStation Pad Adrenalin Xbox Pad Adrenalin Xbox Wheel Adrenalin Xbox Joystick Intec www.inteclink.com Lazer Wireless Controller Mini Wireless Controller Cyber Shock 2 Controller Pro Mini 2 Turbo Shock 2 Controller Cyber Pad 2 Controller G-Force 2 Controller Wireless Mini Smack Down Controller Smack Down Controller Wireless Racing Wheels Xtreme FX Racing Wheel Pro Mini 2 Racing Wheel Nyko www.nyko.com Air Flo EX for PlayStation2 Air Flo XL for PlayStation2 Air Flo EX for Xbox Air Flo Wireless for Xbox Joytech www.joytech.co.uk Neo S Advanced Controller Wireless Neo S Advanced Controller Advanced Controller Wireless Analog Controller Advanced Analog Controller Williams F1 Team Racing Wheel Griffin / Datel www.joytech.co.uk PS2 2.4GHz Wireless Controller Dual Analog Chrome Controller PlayStation 2 Wireless Controller Advanced Controller for Xbox Gemini / Philips Electronics www.gemini-usa.com Recoil Pad PS2 Freak Fleshy PS2 Freak Beserker PS2 Mini SpongeBob Pad Xbox Freak Alien Hip Interactive PS2 2.4 GHz Wireless Controller PS2 Double Shock Controller PS2 Hip Controller PS2 Compact Controller XB-Comm Wireless Controller Xbox Compact Controller Xbox GamePlayer Controller Blockbuster HG Xbox 2.4 GHz Wireless Controller Cube 2.4 GHz Wireless Controller Cube GamePlayer Controller Radica www.radicagames.com Gamester Phoenix Gamester Wireless Phoenix Gamester FPS Master Gamester Race Pac PS2 Lotus Dual Force Wheel Xbox Compact Pro Pad Thrustmaster www.thrustmaster.com SpectraVideo http://www.immersion.com/gaming/vide...ms/console.php PC Gaming Peripherals The cornering forces of your stock car as it rounds corner three at Daytona. The impact of barreling into a pine tree at 40 miles per hour on your snowboard. The pounding of your heart as you infiltrate enemy lines. Gaming and force feedback technology are a natural fit. That's why Immersion TouchSense® technology works with PCs running Microsoft Windows and Apple MacOS, surrounding players with the sense of touch. We work with operating system makers, game developers, and game controller manufacturers to give gamers a more realistic and entertaining experience. From rumble vibrations to full force feedback, Immersion TouchSense technology can transform any game into a multisensory experience. "Feel The Game™" with Immersion-Licensed PC Gaming Products Immersion Licensee Selected PC Hardware Products Logitech www.logitech.com Force 3D Formula Force GP NASCAR Racing Wheel MOMO Racing Cordless RumblePad 2 RumblePad 2 Vibration Feedback Gamepad Microsoft www.microsoft.com SideWinder Force Feedback 2 SideWinder Force Feedback Pro SideWinder Force Feedback Wheel (products discontinued) Saitek www.saitek.com Cyborg evo Force Cyborg 3D Rumble Stick R440 Force Feedback Wheel P2500 Rumble Force Pad Thrustmaster www.thrustmaster.com Top Gun Fox 2 Pro Shock Joystick Top Gun AfterBurner Force Feedback Joystick F1 Force Feedback Racing Wheel Ferrari Force Feedback Wheel Force Feedback GT 360 Modena Force Feedback Wheel ThrustMaster FireStorm Dual Power Game Pad Thrustmaster Upad 360 Modena Force Gemini / Philips Electronics www.gemini-usa.com PC Axis Pad FX PC Game Wheel PC Recoil-Box Hip Interactive Universal Racing Wheel ACT Labs http://www.immersion.com/gaming/vide...s_gamepads.php

madcatz? but not sony? lol, sony, this is hurting you, hell charge 2 bucks more per racing game, but get over it and pay.

[Tellaerin]

Someone owes JC and others an apology, I dug a little deeper and it seems they do hold said patents for force feedback and most of the wheels that support it.

I'm not certain who 'someone' is, but if that was intended for me, nothing you posted addresses the points I raised.

[Mefisutoferesu]

As far as my understanding goes this is false. The patent in dispute was something along the lines of rumble through a game controller, while FF devices function under a different methodolgy. To be honest, my memory is pretty fuzzy and I don't remember the patent all too well (sorry), but I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to this case. As for immersion being on the FF wheel, that's a red herring remember the dispute is specific to a patent not all work with immersion products and so forth. They could deny Sony in this case, because of the troubles with the lawsuit, but Immersion isn't exactly rolling in the money and business is business is business. 'Course, Sony could potentially go through logitech as the vender for the FF wheels as well, since they're licensed and ready to go... dunno the details of how license is set up though, so maybe not.

P.S. Anyone have a link to the patent in dispute again? Best to double check, since my memory's so fuzzy. Thanks is advance.

[Scottlarock]

As far as my understanding goes this is false. The patent in dispute was something along the lines of rumble through a game controller, while FF devices function under a different methodolgy. To be honest, my memory is pretty fuzzy and I don't remember the patent all too well (sorry), but I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to this case. As for immersion being on the FF wheel, that's a red herring remember the dispute is specific to a patent not all work with immersion products and so forth. They could deny Sony in this case, because of the troubles with the lawsuit, but Immersion isn't exactly rolling in the money and business is business is business. 'Course, Sony could potentially go through logitech as the vender for the FF wheels as well, since they're licensed and ready to go... dunno the details of how license is set up though, so maybe not. P.S. Anyone have a link to the patent in dispute again? Best to double check, since my memory's so fuzzy. Thanks is advance.

this is the same I thought, if this is somehow true.... its a big blow to sony. but i remember the two does not connect.

[tehama]

There's not gonna be any rumble or force feedback at all. At the SCEA preview tour a couple weeks ago, I asked what was up with rumble or force feedback in F1 and Motorstorm. Specifically since the options screen in F1 let you choose which of the PS2 wheels you had plugged in for your controls. The PR reps mentioned that although some of the earlier demoes back in the day had feedback code enabled to run on the PS2 wheels, none of that is currently in the game and the titles will not ship with it.

[inpHilltr8r]

Hey look, it's still going: http://fedcir.gov/calendar.html

**Panel J+: Monday, January 8, 2007, 3:00 P.M., Courtroom 203 2006-1354 IMMERSION CORP V SONY COMPUTER [argued]