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Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(08-10-2017, 03:39 AM)
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I ran into this in the Artifact thread, I'm surprised there wasn't a thread about it already since this is old news.

Originally Posted by Sam Nordmark

Valve and Blizzard sued developers Lilith and uCool over a pair of games, Dota Legends and Heroes Charge, that they claimed infringed upon the Dota intellectual property. UCool isn't bothering to argue that the games aren't derivative (Dota is used in one game's title, after all). Instead, it's turning the lawsuit on its head, countering with a claim that Valve and Blizzard's copyrights aren't legitimate in the first place, according to a report in Ars Technica.

https://dotesports.com/dota-2/valve-...hip-dota-14753

But what's really fascinating is Judge Breyer's summary.

It is interesting, for me at least, to see modding history filtered through the lens of the copyright court system, giving us such paragraphs as:

The various video games at issue in this copyright case take players to fantastical worlds populated by elves, demons, and at least one elf-demon. The earliest of these games, Plaintiff Blizzard Entertainment’s “Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos,” lets them build their own fantastical worlds populated by custom characters. Playing off the word modification, players call this process “modding” and their modding creations “mods.”

uCool counters that DotA Allstars is a collective work because Guinsoo and Icefrog—and Meian and Madcow before them—took the most popular DotA heroes and
arranged them into a new game. See MPSJ at 17. But by that logic Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Walt Disney Studios 2015) would be a collective work because it arranged the most popular Star Wars heroes, settings, and one-liners into a new movie. The same might be said of Love Actually (Universal Pictures 2003), given its all-star cast and web of different storylines. But Castaway (20th Century Fox 2000), with its solitary protagonist and even more solitary plot, would presumably be a unitary work.

Worth a read if you like seeing video game culture intersect with real life.

Btw this is DotA Legends:

And Heroes Charge

You might've seen their advertisements.
capitalCORN
Member
(08-10-2017, 03:49 AM)
Well, that's one way to deflect a legal ramming. From both Blizzard and Valve no less.
Drkirby
Corporate Apologist
(08-10-2017, 04:00 AM)
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I wrote a more in depth analysis of this case a while back. The tldr is that there is two things under debate. One, did Eul make his version public domain or not. Two, are a sizable number of Dota Heroes public domain, and which ones?

Valve has proper ownership over everything created from the Guinsoo days and beyond, and all the art assists of Dota 2. But they may not have ownership over Eul's stuff (Which they bought), and some of the heroes made between Eul and Guinsoo.

uCool is in violation of Valve's and Blizzard's copyrights no matter what, but they are trying to minimize what they would have to pay out.
poppedcollar69
Member
(08-10-2017, 04:01 AM)
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I hope DotA becomes public domain so I can develop my own fork that will make the game not trash
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(08-10-2017, 04:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Drkirby

I wrote a more in depth analysis of this case a while back. The tldr is that there is two things under debate. One, did Eul make his version public domain or not. Two, are a sizable number of Dota Heroes public domain, and which ones?

Valve has proper ownership over everything created from the Guinsoo days and beyond, and all the art assists of Dota 2. But they may not have ownership over Eul's stuff (Which they bought), and some of the heroes made between Eul and Guinsoo.

uCool is in violation of Valve's and Blizzard's copyrights no matter what, but they are trying to minimize what they would have to pay out.

Link?
Candescence
Banned
(08-10-2017, 04:14 AM)
Wow, that looks like your typical chinese ripoff, and it looks like it flagrantly violates Blizzard's general intellectual monopolies in any case. uCool can't win, but they're trying to stem the bleeding.
Drkirby
Corporate Apologist
(08-10-2017, 04:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Haly

Link?

I'm on my Phone at TI, so I don't think I would be able to find it now. It was a more in depth summery of that court document in the OP. Its a bit of a long read, but its good stuff.

Pages 20-21 talk about Eul potential public domaining dota, which is going to jury. Pages 18-19 talk about the ownership of heroes made in versions not by Eul/Guinsoo/Icefrog. The part about heroes means that Valve may not have the legal right to protect them, but you would individually challenge each character (Which if you didn't make the character, likely isn't worth the legal costs)
poppedcollar69
Member
(08-10-2017, 04:45 AM)
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I'm taking a look at that court document, pretty interesting

And now we officially know icefrog's identity!
Syf
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(08-10-2017, 04:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by Drkirby

Pages 20-21 talk about Eul potential public domaining dota, which is going to jury.

Do you think there's much chance of that actually happening?

Had no idea such a potentially big decision is on its way to jury.
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(08-10-2017, 04:56 AM)
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If they do indeed go through the game with a fine toothed comb, Lina "The Slayer" would be one of the obvious examples of non-ownership by Valve. Perhaps it falls under derivative work or satire?

I don't know what Lina is called in DotA Legend/Heroes Charge, though.
RS4-
Member
(08-10-2017, 04:59 AM)
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I can only hope these UCool clowns go completely bankrupt. Fuck them.
Renekton
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(08-10-2017, 05:14 AM)
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Isn't it wrong for Valve to own a supposed public property like DOTA in the first place?
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(08-10-2017, 05:16 AM)
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Its "publicness" is under question now as an unintended side effect of this suit.
Duxxy3
Member
(08-10-2017, 05:19 AM)
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I always thought Valve taking the DOTA name was really sketchy in the first place.
Qvoth
Member
(08-10-2017, 05:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by poppedcollar69

I'm taking a look at that court document, pretty interesting

And now we officially know icefrog's identity!

oh shit, is it abdul ismail?
EDIT: IT'S TRUE, ICEFROG IS HIM
Last edited by Qvoth; 08-10-2017 at 05:38 AM.
Abilidebob
Member
(08-10-2017, 05:50 AM)

Originally Posted by poppedcollar69

I'm taking a look at that court document, pretty interesting

And now we officially know icefrog's identity!

Huh, I've heard that he was "Abdul Ismail" for quite some time, so it was the truth huh.
Amibguous Cad
Member
(08-10-2017, 06:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Haly

Its "publicness" is under question now as an unintended side effect of this suit.

Talking about the justice of the situation, not what our copyright system actually eventually spits out. Any copyright regime that makes a game developed by hundreds of amateurs over the course of a decade with many, many competing versions pinging off of each other, stealing ideas, and evolving in concert, not a part of the public domain is one that has been entirely captured by the media producers it is supposed to regulate.

Anyway, the best part of that court document for me was that the Warcraft III EULA didn't give Blizzard the rights to all the IP made in their mod tools - but it DID prevent people from selling things created using those tools. Which would have been incredibly amusing - Blizzard being prevented from buying the IP produced using their own tools because of their own draconian EULA, quite an own-goal.

Unfortunately, apparently the Chinese developers did not advance this argument, and since it wasn't advanced at summary judgement, they've waived it. Apparently the court even asked for clarification hoping to expand on this point and got bupkis. Very unfortunate.
Hylian7
Member
(08-10-2017, 06:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Haly

If they do indeed go through the game with a fine toothed comb, Lina "The Slayer" would be one of the obvious examples of non-ownership by Valve. Perhaps it falls under derivative work or satire?

I don't know what Lina is called in DotA Legend/Heroes Charge, though.

I don't think she is actually referred to as "The Slayer" anywhere in the Dota 2 or supplementing lore. She's just "Lina".

I'm honestly surprised Brewmaster hasn't had any lawsuit over him. He's not a panda anymore, but most of his kit is lifted directly from the Pandaren Brewmaster unit from WC3. If I remember correctly the WC3 one had Breathe Fire instead of Thunder Clap.
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(08-10-2017, 06:24 AM)
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I went to check if they nixxed that but nope, still "the Slayer".

Remembrance
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(08-10-2017, 06:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Amibguous Cad

Talking about the justice of the situation, not what our copyright system actually eventually spits out. Any copyright regime that makes a game developed by hundreds of amateurs over the course of a decade with many, many competing versions pinging off of each other, stealing ideas, and evolving in concert, not a part of the public domain is one that has been entirely captured by the media producers it is supposed to regulate.

The copyright regime was also created from a tradition of amateurs turning around and selling their creations for their own profit. In other media altogether, the fight for "justice" has always been over the artist deserving to be paid something rather than nothing.

If everyone could take Dota without paying a cent in this case, there would be injustice in other cases where media companies have actually taken the works of amateurs without paying a cent.

Hell, if that were the case with Dota and Valve that would probably be exactly how the Dota story would be spun.
Hylian7
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(08-10-2017, 07:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Haly

I went to check if they nixxed that but nope, still "the Slayer".

Goddamn, I didn't realize it. I'm surprised that wasn't changed during the sweep of Windranger, Outworld Devourer, Necrophos, Io, Wraith King, etc.
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(08-10-2017, 07:10 AM)
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It will probably be changed at the end of this suit. I can't think of any other ones that immediately come to mind but Lina is el classico "rip off from something else".
waxinlyrical
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(08-10-2017, 07:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by Haly

It will probably be changed at the end of this suit. I can't think of any other ones that immediately come to mind but Lina is el classico "rip off from something else".

I imagine they only changed Windrunner etc because Blizzard is a more credible legal threat than Kanzaka Hajime (Slayers author) or Wizards of the Coast (Leshrac was from Magic)

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