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Kafel
Banned
(06-19-2007, 01:40 PM)
Kafel's Avatar
Now the kids will be even more violent.
Yagharek
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:41 PM)
Oh **** off.

Australian PAL Wii owner here. UK import was my #1 hope. There's sweet bugger all chance of NZ getting it since they usually get the UK games (and dont even start on the odds of Australia getting it). :(
noizbot
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:41 PM)
Isn't it nice when governments decide for us what we can and cannot do in the privacy of our own homes?

I know most people here are educated enough to understand why this is bad, regardless of whether or not you like the game. Anyone that says this is okay is a bigger danger than Manhunt will ever be.

Yeah, I live in the US so this doesn't apply to me. Yet.
Cosmonaut X
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deacan

Damn you Nintendo and your family friendly image of all the family playing the Wii on the couch.

Yeah, it's Nintendo’s fault & not anything to do with the fact that Manhunt 2 appears to be a hyperviolent game where the player is asked to stalk & murder NPCs in incredibly gruesome ways.

Moan at the BBFC for refusing to certify it, or moan at Rockstar/Take2 for producing a game with content so extreme that the BBFC have seen fit to refuse certification. Don’t moan at Nintendo - or Sony - for this one.
Ramenman
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:42 PM)

Originally Posted by Deacan

Damn you Nintendo and your family friendly image of all the family playing the Wii on the couch.

It's all Nintendo's fault !! They even got the PS2 version censored only to piss off Sony ! :P
Destructo Spin
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:44 PM)
ARGH

This news makes me want to kill something. If only there were some sort of game I could get killing instructions from... Curse this cycle!


Though I must be honest, I think the bbfc has a fair point. Whilst I do not condone censorship of this nature, especially when it concerns the choices of those who are 18 or above, their actual reasoning is quite fair.

I mean, manhunt was fun, but it was also pretty f***ing horrible, oppresive, bleak and ruthlessly violent. There are similar games that draw flack from the press (...gta) but these games don't center soley around the violent killing of different people.

Of course, having said all this, most people are intelligent enough to simply look at it as a piece of removed entertainment. A piece of mindless violence to excercie some demons before going back to doing whatever.

If you're old enough to vote, you should be old enough to decide which videogames you wish to purchase.
titiklabingapat
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:44 PM)
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So third parties really don't sell on Nintendo systems after all.
Rezbit
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by RandomVince

Oh **** off.

Australian PAL Wii owner here. UK import was my #1 hope. There's sweet bugger all chance of NZ getting it since they usually get the UK games (and dont even start on the odds of Australia getting it). :(

No waggle-stranglings for us :(. This could actually be problematic for Rockstar, because there will be a massive chunk of the gaming community that will never see this, and hence the sales of this game could be a lot crapper than they normally would. Then we'll hear "Mature games don't sell on Nintendo lols!"
MadFuzzy
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:46 PM)

Originally Posted by NekoFever

Games don't even have to have a BBFC rating though, do they? A lot of them do because it's illegal to sell, for example, an 18-rated game to an under-18 and so it covers them for that eventuality (they took steps to prevent the sale to minors so it was the store that broke the law), but there's legally nothing to stop them just slapping the mandatory but legally unenforced PEGI rating on there.

The fact that it would be breaking UK law would stop them. The BBFC rating basically superceeds the PEGI one in the UK from a legal perspective (it is legally enforceable) and retailers could be taken to court and fined (or store owners jailed) if they stock the PEGI version from mainland Europe.
Stop It
Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
(06-19-2007, 01:47 PM)
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To every person in this thread saying the BBFC is somesort of government agency: Shut up and read this

And if you cannot be bothered:

Originally Posted by BBFC Website

The British Board of Film Classification is an independent, non-governmental body, which has classified cinema films since it was set up in 1912, and videos since the passing of the Video Recordings Act in 1984.

This is NOT the UK government censoring anything, this is the BBFC deeming it unsuitable, theres a huge difference, now our government probably wont overturn it, as it usually respects the BBFC in these sorts of matters, but to say this is some sort of government censorship plot is stupid.

Also, this is not the end of the matter, like in Germany, and Japan with similar violent games, Rockstar are permitted to submit a toned down version to get it past the BBFC, and trust me, the BBFC are usually quite liberal, this game must really push the envelope, and as much as I am an advocate of freedom of media, Rockstar may have just pushed past the borders of reasonable acceptability.
Maztorre
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Kinan

Thats the only game I'm glad that its banned in Germany, so UK board decision pleases me immensely. **** the freedom of choice, if society is not conscious enough to protect itself from clearly asocial messages of this game (by choosing not to buy such a game at all), at least an attempt of protection should be made by governments.

Who decides if society is able to "protect" itself from a videogame? You?

If you don't like it you can stick your head back in the sand. The game is no more questionable or asocial than plenty of fiction from other media.
Yagharek
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:49 PM)

Originally Posted by Rezbit

No waggle-stranglings for us :(. This could actually be problematic for Rockstar, because there will be a massive chunk of the gaming community that will never see this, and hence the sales of this game could be a lot crapper than they normally would. Then we'll hear "Mature games don't sell on Nintendo lols!"

Well it could even put the chances of a PAL port at zero. Germany, UK, Australia will most likely now not be getting the game. I guess the US version will have a spanish language option (???) so maybe the only hope for English speaking PAL Wii owners is if Rockstar release it in mainland EU with an English language option.

I guess to maximise chances of that happening, all EU Wii owners need to go out and buy Godfather, Driver and Scarface ASAP. Multiple copies too please. :D
m14
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:51 PM)
This is a massive blow for the Wii.
test_account
XP-39C˛
(06-19-2007, 01:51 PM)
test_account's Avatar

Originally Posted by noizbot

Isn't it nice when governments decide for us what we can and cannot do in the privacy of our own homes?

What does Manhunt (or any game for that sake) have to do with what we can and cannot do in our own homes?
SovanJedi
provides useful feedback
(06-19-2007, 01:51 PM)
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No doubt related to the incident which occured in the UK around the original Manhunt:

Originally Posted by That popular site with all the smarts

In the UK, the game was linked to the murder of Stefan Pakeerah, 14, by his friend Warren Leblanc, 17. Giselle Pakeerah, the victim's mother, claimed[9] that Leblanc had been 'obsessed' with the game after the former pleaded guilty in court. During the subsequent media circus, the game was removed from sale by some vendors, such as the UK and international branches of GAME and Dixons, leading to "significantly increased" demand[10] both from retailers and on internet auction sites. The police denied any such link between the game and the murder however,[11] citing drug-related robbery as the motive. The presiding judge also placed sole responsibility with Leblanc in his summing up after awarding him a life sentence.[12] GAME have since returned Manhunt to their shelves, after it transpired that the murderer did not even own or ever play the game. It was apparently the victim who owned a copy of Manhunt, even though he was under 18.[13]

The last part is bolded for added WHATDOG moment.
DrXym
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Setanta

Other European version would be Ireland. Identical releases to the UK ones, same distributors etc. i.e 'Nintendo UK and Ireland' andd so forth.

Irish Ebay users will make a bit of money.

That depends if Ireland approves the game. Stores may not stock it for fear of the controversy or may have difficulties stocking it due to the lack of rating in the UK.

Let's not forget that all the flap about Bully meant most Irish stores put up parental warnings and requested photo IDs of anyone who wanted to buy it. This for a game which is a mild 15 and pales by comparison to most 15+ titles.
MadFuzzy
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Stop It

Also, this is not the end of the matter, like in Germany, and Japan with similar violent games, Rockstar are permitted to submit a toned down version to get it past the BBFC, and trust me, the BBFC are usually quite liberal, this game must really push the envelope, and as much as I am an advocate of freedom of media, Rockstar may have just pushed past the borders of reasonable acceptability.

It frankly wouldn't surprise me if they had already produced a cut version of the title internally, but submitted the standard "full violence" version first to test the water at the BBFC and get some cheap publicity if it was rejected, which is what happened. A couple of grand for being refused an age rating is worth a hell of a lot more to them in terms of PR than it passing with less fuss.

What are the bets that they'll be appealing and submitting an edited version in the next few weeks that will pass at 18?
Salazar
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:53 PM)
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I would ordinarily argue in terms of the raw principle of the matter, but it is difficult to get worked up in favour of the availability of Manhunt 2. I get the "It doesn't matter what the game is or whether or not you like/would buy it" thing, but if folks are empowered to restrict games, and are going to retain that power and feel obliged to exercise it every so often, then regulatory chest-beating over squalid gumph like Manhunt 2 is relatively easy to swallow.
fresquito
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:54 PM)
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Yet another prove of why mankind is evolving thanks to free thinking...
loosus
Banned
(06-19-2007, 01:54 PM)
Not really surprising. That UK has been heading down this road for a while. The fact that the UK's freaking prime minister stepped in to comment on the Resistance crap is evidence of that.
Setanta
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:54 PM)

Originally Posted by RandomVince

Well it could even put the chances of a PAL port at zero. Germany, UK, Australia will most likely now not be getting the game. I guess the US version will have a spanish language option (???) so maybe the only hope for English speaking PAL Wii owners is if Rockstar release it in mainland EU with an English language option.

I guess to maximise chances of that happening, all EU Wii owners need to go out and buy Godfather, Driver and Scarface ASAP. Multiple copies too please. :D

Ermm....I'll say this again: Ireland.
Stop It
Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
(06-19-2007, 01:55 PM)
Stop It's Avatar

Originally Posted by MadFuzzy

It frankly wouldn't surprise me if they had already produced a cut version of the title internally, but submitted the standard "full violence" version first to test the water at the BBFC and get some cheap publicity if it was rejected, which is what happened. A couple of grand for being refused an age rating is worth a hell of a lot more to them in terms of PR than it passing with less fuss.

What are the bets that they'll be appealing and submitting an edited version in the next few weeks that will pass at 18?

1 to 1, it will happen, Rockstar will not neglect the UK market by doing so, they also knew that the BBFCs reaction usually defines where the rest of Europe will go in regards to game classification also, so it was a wise choice to start with them, now they know they have pushed it too far, and will submit a not so OTT version within a month, Manhunt 2 WILL be released here in the UK, just not the version originally submitted.
JDSN
Banned
(06-19-2007, 01:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by m14

This is a massive blow for the Wii.

Yep, Nintendo had a good run.
noizbot
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:56 PM)

Originally Posted by test_account

What does Manhunt (or any game for that sake) have to do with what we can and cannot do in our own homes?

Err.. it has to do with whether we can play them or not.......
Jokeropia
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:57 PM)

Originally Posted by test_account

What does Manhunt (or any game for that sake) have to do with what we can and cannot do in our own homes?

The fact that the BBFC is trying to stop people from playing it?
Polari
(06-19-2007, 01:57 PM)
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Pretty much guaranteed banned in New Zealand, then. Unlike in Australia, here having a copy, let alone selling one, will get you arrested. :(
Yagharek
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:57 PM)

Originally Posted by Setanta

Ermm....I'll say this again: Ireland.

Yeah I saw that. :)

I seriously doubt the game will even get a PAL port now though.
MrPing1000
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Setanta

Ermm....I'll say this again: Ireland.

Don't know of any game websites that'll ship up north do u? Not gonna do a day trip to Dublin just to buy a game :D
loosus
Banned
(06-19-2007, 01:58 PM)

Originally Posted by Polari

Pretty much guaranteed banned in New Zealand, then. Unlike in Australia, here having a copy, let alone selling one, will get you arrested. :(

Are you serious? What kinda commie countries are you guys living in?!
zallaaa
Member
(06-19-2007, 01:58 PM)

A four-member panel

I hope a four-member panel refused to classify even Hostel and Hostel part II, either way that would be a little paradoxical in my opinion....
however, It's about time people stop to denigrate/censor videogames, let the consumer decides what to buy and what not freely!
Polari
(06-19-2007, 01:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by loosus

Are you serious? What kinda commie countries are you guys living in?!

I am. Ridiculous, isn't it?
deftangel
took a programming course
(06-19-2007, 02:01 PM)

Originally Posted by NekoFever

Games don't even have to have a BBFC rating though, do they? A lot of them do because it's illegal to sell, for example, an 18-rated game to an under-18 and so it covers them for that eventuality (they took steps to prevent the sale to minors so it was the store that broke the law), but there's legally nothing to stop them just slapping the mandatory but legally unenforced PEGI rating on there. It just leaves them vulnerable to the tabloid shitstorm.

*enjoys imported Wii and modded PS2*

Under the Video Recordings Act (1984) some games do. Games are normally exempt from the Act and can carry just a PEGI rating unless they contain content that might cause them to lose exemption. Such content includes,

* Gross acts of violence towards humans or animals,
* Horrific behaviour or incidents
* Human sexual activity
* Criminal behaviour

If a game is deemed to have lose exemption under the Act, then it requires a BBFC rating to be released in the UK. It is highly unlikely that Manhunt 2 could ever be considered exempt, hence releasing it without a formal classification could lead to prosecution of retailers or the publisher.
MattyH
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:04 PM)
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This is just Wrong Wrong Wrong.
the uk is turning into a nanny state im 18 and i feel now that i can make my own decisions on what i watch and play
Bleeders
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:04 PM)
Anyone actually ready WHY the BBFC rejected Manhunt 2?

“In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible. Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing.

“There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game.

“Although the difference should not be exaggerated the fact of the game’s unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer, together with the different overall narrative context, contribute towards differentiating this submission from the original Manhunt game.

I thought the first one was shit anyway, but I digress, I think the BBFC pre-empted a shit-storm with the likes of the Daily Mail picking up on this "Murder Sim" and decided not to grant it classification.
MadFuzzy
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Stop It

1 to 1, it will happen, Rockstar will not neglect the UK market by doing so, they also knew that the BBFCs reaction usually defines where the rest of Europe will go in regards to game classification also, so it was a wise choice to start with them, now they know they have pushed it too far, and will submit a not so OTT version within a month, Manhunt 2 WILL be released here in the UK, just not the version originally submitted.

They're probably just playing the BBFC in the same way that Eli Roth and Rob Zombie play the MPAA to get their movies passed at R rather than NC-17.
JonathanEx
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:07 PM)
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ELSPA just released a statement. Very short, basically going "shows we have a good rating system!"

MANHUNT 2

PAUL JACKSON - DIRECTOR GENERAL, ELSPA

"A decision from the BBFC such as this demonstrates that we have a games ratings system in the UK that is effective. It shows it works and works well. Any decision the BBFC takes, it takes on the basis of its remit to rate on screen entertainment.

"The games industry is a creative phenomenon that produces all kinds of games across all kinds of genres that appeal to all kinds of people across the country, young and old, male and female. The important thing to know is that all games are rated according to age suitability, with over 70 per cent of games being available to all ages over three years."

M3wThr33
Banned
(06-19-2007, 02:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Bleeders

Anyone actually ready WHY the BBFC rejected Manhunt 2?

Uhh. I just read what you posted. I'm sure it's EXACTLY what EVERY SINGLE person thought.
loosus
Banned
(06-19-2007, 02:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Bleeders

Anyone actually ready WHY the BBFC rejected Manhunt 2?

So they basically get to legislate how much violence (and "alternatives") that a game must have now?

I can't wait until they start legislating difficulty of games, too. "Mario Galaxy is clearly too difficult and would cause headache and hassle for citizens. We are suspending this game until more 1-UPs are added. By the way, tighten up the graphics on Level 5!"
No.1
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:09 PM)
Take Two or Rockstar still have the opportunity to appeal the decision made, though I'm not exactly sure how successful they will be on such a game. Shame too.

It was a no-brainer that the title would be refused in Australia, but I'm honestly surprised that this game wasn't considered in the UK. Boo-urns!
Gaminglegend
Banned
(06-19-2007, 02:11 PM)
Great. Now the chance of it coming to Australia is zero :(
Android18a
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by deftangel

Under the Video Recordings Act (1984) some games do. Games are normally exempt from the Act and can carry just a PEGI rating unless they contain content that might cause them to lose exemption. Such content includes,

* Gross acts of violence towards humans or animals,
* Horrific behaviour or incidents
* Human sexual activity
* Criminal behaviour

*Stomping on turtles (murder)
*Digestion of mushrooms and other wild flora encouraged (drugs)
*He's Italian (ish), which says a lot here :-p (filth)
*Stealing coins, tearing down flags, busting into castles (theft, criminal damage, illegal entry)

Super Mario should be an 18.
Bleeders
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:12 PM)

Originally Posted by loosus

So they basically get to legislate how much violence (and "alternatives") that a game must have now?

I can't wait until they start legislating difficulty of games, too. "Mario Galaxy is clearly too difficult and would cause headache and hassle for citizens. We are suspending this game until more 1-UPs are added. By the way, tighten up the graphics on Level 5!"

Welcome to United Kingdom, 2007.

Big Brother is watching you... telling you what to do... what you can and can't play etc.
test_account
XP-39C˛
(06-19-2007, 02:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by noizbot

Err.. it has to do with whether we can play them or not.......

But in that case, shouldnt anything be allowed as long as you do it in the privacy in your home? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i doubt you get jail or a fine if you play Manhunt in a country where its banned, its just not allowed to be sold there.
ksamedi
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by RandomVince

Well it could even put the chances of a PAL port at zero. Germany, UK, Australia will most likely now not be getting the game. I guess the US version will have a spanish language option (???) so maybe the only hope for English speaking PAL Wii owners is if Rockstar release it in mainland EU with an English language option.

I guess to maximise chances of that happening, all EU Wii owners need to go out and buy Godfather, Driver and Scarface ASAP. Multiple copies too please. :D

The PAL port is probably already done, its releasing in a couple of weeks here. UKers just have to import from Holland or something.
plagiarize
Banned
(06-19-2007, 02:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by MadFuzzy

They're probably just playing the BBFC in the same way that Eli Roth and Rob Zombie play the MPAA to get their movies passed at R rather than NC-17.

that thought has crossed my mind.

in the past directors would often submit a version of their film that was more violent than they intended the final version to be, so they could appear to 'tone it down'... or insert an easily removed scene that was much more violent than the rest of the film, so that nothing else in the film seemed so bad, and that that scene could be removed without harming it.

there is nothing to stop Rockstar submitting a version with certain cuts made to it, and more to the point, the BBFC will have supplied them with everything they'd need to remove and change to come in with a rating.

as a horror fan who grew up in the UK, i have to say that the BBFC is much more liberal than they used to be, and there's a number of instances i can think of where the US version of a game was cut and the UK one wasn't.

the only difference in this case between the US and UK systems is that a game which falls under the BBFC's rating system cannot be sold without a rating. in america the ratings system on films and video games is optional as 'unrated' DVDs show. in the UK it isn't. Manhunt 2 will either be cut to get an 18 or not released at all. doing anything else would be breaking the law (as is selling an 18 rated game to a minor).

given how liberal the BBFC has been lately, and given the games that they've released uncut with an 18 rating in the past (such as Postal 2), this all leaves me wondering exactly how violent Manhunt 2 is.
JonathanEx
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bleeders

Welcome to United Kingdom, 2007.

Big Brother is watching you... telling you what to do... what you can and can't play etc.

It's day 27 in the Big Brother house and BBFC have stopped the other housemates from playing Manhunt 2?


yes i know what you mean, but i can't pass up the opportunity for a cheap joke
plagiarize
Banned
(06-19-2007, 02:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by test_account

But in that case, shouldnt anything be allowed as long as you do it in the privacy in your home? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i doubt you get jail or a fine if you play Manhunt in a country where its banned, its just not allowed to be sold there.

it may be illegal to import it. i know that customs occasionally seize films banned from england, though that might just be for certain porn movies.
radioheadrule83
Banned
(06-19-2007, 02:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bleeders

Welcome to United Kingdom, 2007.

Big Brother is watching you... telling you what to do... what you can and can't play etc.

Originally Posted by Stop It

To every person in this thread saying the BBFC is somesort of government agency: Shut up and read this

.
TheDrowningMan
Member
(06-19-2007, 02:18 PM)
Well, as the BBFC are pretty liberal these days (generally more so than their US counterparts, this must be horrible.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that maybe this game is exactly what Jack Thompson thinks GTA is: A brutal murder simulator with no point other than to shock and disgust. It certainly seems that way from every preview out there.

So while I don't want this ban, I can see the point, given that it'll invariably be played by as many kids as adults.
Branduil
(06-19-2007, 02:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stop It

Also, this is not the end of the matter, like in Germany, and Japan with similar violent games, Rockstar are permitted to submit a toned down version to get it past the BBFC, and trust me, the BBFC are usually quite liberal, this game must really push the envelope, and as much as I am an advocate of freedom of media, Rockstar may have just pushed past the borders of reasonable acceptability.

Aren't you the guy who said people should be prosecuted for racist remarks?

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