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broadwayrock
Member
(06-19-2007, 03:45 PM)
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Now banned in Ireland too:

http://www.ifco.ie/ifco/ifcoweb.nsf/...s&type=graphic
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 03:46 PM)

Originally Posted by broadwayrock

Now banned in Ireland too:

http://www.ifco.ie/ifco/ifcoweb.nsf/...s&type=graphic

:lol

this game is going to be ****ing amazing
Stop It
Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
(06-19-2007, 03:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by jipe

What I'm arguing is your claim that '[t]his is NOT the UK government censoring anything' because the BBFC is an independent organisation. I disagree with this, since the government has quite clearly decided that censorship for certain media could be beneficial, outsourcing the actual work to the BBFC.

If the government hadn't granted the BBFC this power, they obviously wouldn't be able to ban something like Manhunt, so I fail to see how this can be seen as anything but state-sponsored censorship.

Maybe I am taking this argument the wrong way, but when I think "Government" I think the current government, with its short term policies, media interests etc, and if the BBFC was influenced by this I would agree that this is censorship for populisms sake, but it isn't the BBFCs policies are not affected by government, they are self imposed, their mandate was given because of the respect garnered from the industry and governement, that respect was gained beacuase they generally got their ratings spot on.

Anyway, Manhunt 2 may or may not be socially unnacceptable, but i'll trust the BBFC because they have no reason to be sensationalist, and no reason to restrict its rating other than the game being truly OTT in some way or another.

http://www.ifco.ie/ifco/ifcoweb.nsf/...s&type=graphic
Also restricted from rating in Ireland, Not suprising, Rockstar have set out to rock the boat and may have deliberately went too far to get this reaction, free publicity after all.
Ranger X
Kohler: 1, Ranger X: 0

PS: Itoi > Kojima by a good green country mile
(06-19-2007, 03:48 PM)
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Wow now there will be alot of other country that will ban this game it seems.
I bet most will ban this game without really knowning what they are doing or banning exactly. What a retarded world.
pswii60
(06-19-2007, 03:48 PM)
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lol @ people slagging the BBFC for refusing to classify the game.

This is the FIRST time since 1997 that this has happened. Perhaps the game really does just go too far - I mean the first game was pushing the boundaries IMHO.
Frankfurter
Member
(06-19-2007, 03:49 PM)
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:lol Import it from Germany

Btw.: the game will be banned in Germany most likely, but it'll take a few weeks, so I think I'll be able to buy it.
deftangel
took a programming course
(06-19-2007, 03:50 PM)

Originally Posted by jipe

If a rating organisation hasn't been granted any special powers by the state, I wouldn't say it's state-sponsored (ie. they might want to ban something, but they wouldn't be able to call on the powers of the state to enforce such a ban).

True, I don't disagree with you. My point was only to say that other rating systems exist because they have the tacit approval of the state or states. So perhaps state sponsored isn't terribly accurate, but in order to exist, they would certainly have the support of their various governments who presumably don't want the nasty flak of performing said regulation themselves :)
Rocked
Member
(06-19-2007, 03:52 PM)
This kind of stuff gives amazing publicity though. Import sales of the PAL version will go through the roof. :lol

Couldn't they sell it in the adult DVD shops in Soho? :P

Would you pass a game for even an 18 rating if it involved a section where you have to go into a school and brutally kill children to progress to the next section? Don't think I would. Not saying that ManHunt 2 has this kind of bit, but maybe it has something equally distasteful.

I think I would. I'm of the belief that if films, art and other mediums are allowed to tackle controversial and distressing subjects, then games shouldn't be restricted either.
Visualante
Member
(06-19-2007, 03:53 PM)
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Hype -1
Ghost
Chili Con Carnage!
(06-19-2007, 03:54 PM)
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This game has always struck me as bordering the line even i think videogames should adhere to. You can argue that there have been plenty of films with similar themes as Manhunt or that censorship is bad but honestly I just think this is one game we could all do without, regardless of it's quality as an actual game.



Also, the BBFC hasnt banned anything, they have no power to do so, the reason Manhunt 2 wont be released is that retailers have independantly decided to not stock products the BBFC hasnt rated. It's their choice to do so. I'd imagine Manhunt 2 will still appear in some independant stores that decide to stock it.
Ranger X
Kohler: 1, Ranger X: 0

PS: Itoi > Kojima by a good green country mile
(06-19-2007, 03:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ghost

This game has always struck me as bordering the line even i think videogames should adhere to. You can argue that there have been plenty of films with similar themes as Manhunt or that censorship is bad but honestly I just think this is one game we could all do without, regardless of it's quality as an actual game.

Why?
If it is actually a good game what happens? All games are entertainment therefore we can do without any. Movies the same thing.
Hammer24
Banned
(06-19-2007, 03:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Frankfurter

Btw.: the game will be banned in Germany most likely, but it'll take a few weeks, so I think I'll be able to buy it.

How would this be possible? AFAIK a game canīt go on sale before it has been reviewed by the USK?
Segata Sanshiro
(06-19-2007, 03:58 PM)
They're definitely rattling the cage just for attention, and that pisses me off because some of Rockstar's games are exceptional enough to not need to, but the only reason cage-rattling bothers me is because it invites censorship for all games. I am extremely against any sort of independent body telling adults what they can and cannot handle. No one is hurt in the creation of a game, it should have the same protection as art.
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 03:58 PM)

Originally Posted by Ghost

This game has always struck me as bordering the line even i think videogames should adhere to. You can argue that there have been plenty of films with similar themes as Manhunt or that censorship is bad but honestly I just think this is one game we could all do without, regardless of it's quality as an actual game.

Why? Why isn't there room for all types of games in this industry? So you don't like ultra violent games? That's cool, there are many others to choose from.

The market should decide if Manhunt 2 is acceptable or not... not government watchdogs.

Some of the responses here are amazing. I once had the belief that when our generation gets older an into major positions of power that there would be a more open mind when it comes to technology and free speech issues. But shit we have a bunch of little Jack Thompsons running around on this very forum. :lol
speculawyer
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:00 PM)
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All these problems and no Jack Thompson involved.

Somewhere he is laughing. :-/
Setanta
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:00 PM)

Originally Posted by broadwayrock

Now banned in Ireland too:

http://www.ifco.ie/ifco/ifcoweb.nsf/...s&type=graphic


:(

That is 2 jurisdictions in Western Europe that usually are leniant towards such things putting an outright ban on it!

COMPLETELY rules out an English language PAL release with this news!! Horrible!

If I was an American or Canadian I would be optimistic of ever getting to play it, if going by reports that the ESRB are slightly more strict.
What are Rockstar/TTwo going to do now? A huge loss of money if you ask me, considering the Republic of Ireland, U.K (now banned) and more than likely Germany and Australia slapping a ban as well.
Stop It
Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
(06-19-2007, 04:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rocked

This kind of stuff gives amazing publicity though. Import sales of the PAL version will go through the roof. :lol

Couldn't they sell it in the adult DVD shops in Soho? :P



I think I would. I'm of the belief that if films, art and other mediums are allowed to tackle controversial and distressing subjects, then games shouldn't be restricted either.

I agree, but what if it was so gratuitous, so immoral, with no reflection of the damge your actions will have, nor any consequence to those actions, or in fact reward for it, what then?

Going into film, I remember when Scum was released, it was called to be banned also, due to it showing systematic abuse of children, as well as homosexual rape, however, it was an insightful and shocking insight into what Borstal really was like, and thus wasn't banned, if Manhunt 2 is seen to glorify violence in such a way as to be morally unacceptable, as well as not actually being an insight into anything more worthwhile than the warped mins of some people at Rockstar, surely that doesn't deserve release?
Ranger X
Kohler: 1, Ranger X: 0

PS: Itoi > Kojima by a good green country mile
(06-19-2007, 04:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Razoric

Why? Why isn't there room for all types of games in this industry? So you don't like ultra violent games? That's cool, there are many others to choose from.

The market should decide if Manhunt 2 is acceptable or not... not government watchdogs.

Some of the responses here are amazing. I once had the belief that when our generation gets older an into major positions of power that there would be a more open mind when it comes to technology and free speech issues. But shit we have a bunch of little Jack Thompsons running around on this very forum. :lol

He sounds like he's having prejudices. I remember his comments in GTA threads -- most of them sounding uneducated and judgmental.
Ghost
Chili Con Carnage!
(06-19-2007, 04:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ranger X

Why?
If it is actually a good game what happens? All games are entertainment therefore we can do without any. Movies the same thing.


It's just my personal opinion that nothing good can come for a game with such a dark motif, Im not saying it's going to create a wave of murderous kids or anything, I just think its a subset of gaming that raises a lot of questions about the industry and doesn't do anything gameplay or experience wise to jusitify the stick the rest of the industry has to put up with because of it.
jipe
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:05 PM)

Originally Posted by Ghost

Also, the BBFC hasnt banned anything, they have no power to do so, the reason Manhunt 2 wont be released is that retailers have independantly decided to not stock products the BBFC hasnt rated. It's their choice to do so. I'd imagine Manhunt 2 will still appear in some independant stores that decide to stock it.

Not true. Under the video recording act of 1984 'supplying or offering to supply an uncertificated video or game' is an offense carrying a maximum penalty of imprisonment for up to two years.

The BBFC has been given the job of classifying/certifying games and videos by the UK government, so retailers do have to obey their decisions.
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Ghost

It's just my personal opinion that nothing good can come for a game with such a dark motif, Im not saying it's going to create a wave of murderous kids or anything, I just think its a subset of gaming that raises a lot of questions about the industry and doesn't do anything gameplay or experience wise to jusitify the stick the rest of the industry has to put up with because of it.

Right so lets appease the Jack Thompsons of the world and ban anything they would take issue with.
Neo C.
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:06 PM)
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Why does UK hate freedom?
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Setanta

If I was an American or Canadian I would be optimistic of ever getting to play it, if going by reports that the ESRB are slightly more strict.

I'm not scared of the ESRB but of Nintendo and/or Walmart pulling the plug.
Stop It
Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
(06-19-2007, 04:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neo C.

Why does UK hate freedom?

Now, I don't mind a debate about the in/outs of the BBFC policy, as well as the pros/cons of censorship within the media with the some of the more intelligent people on this forum, but how do I argue with this? seriously, make a proper point or don't bother, debate is good, stupid comments like this, not so much.
ksamedi
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Setanta

:(

That is 2 jurisdictions in Western Europe that usually are leniant towards such things putting an outright ban on it!

COMPLETELY rules out an English language PAL release with this news!! Horrible!

If I was an American or Canadian I would be optimistic of ever getting to play it, if going by reports that the ESRB are slightly more strict.
What are Rockstar/TTwo going to do now? A huge loss of money if you ask me, considering the Republic of Ireland, U.K (now banned) and more than likely Germany and Australia slapping a ban as well.

The Benelux gets the English version. so does a lot of other countries in Europe.
Segata Sanshiro
(06-19-2007, 04:11 PM)
I'm confident NA will see its release. I can't recall an instance of a game being "Banned in Canada", or the US for that matter.
Natsume
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Neo C.

Why does UK hate freedom?

:lol Comeback when you have a clue
Segata Sanshiro
(06-19-2007, 04:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Neo C.

Why does UK hate freedom?

Son, they don't hate freedom. Look at all the fine work they've done in Iraq.
Ghost
Chili Con Carnage!
(06-19-2007, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Razoric

Right so lets appease the Jack Thompsons of the world and ban anything they would take issue with.


:lol, no. Let's just not make games that sell purely on shock value. Let's have some class and put some thought into what people will enjoy playing and not just 1up the most controversal thing we can think of and watch the money roll in.
Ninja Kn1ght
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by broadwayrock

Now banned in Ireland too:

http://www.ifco.ie/ifco/ifcoweb.nsf/...s&type=graphic

NOOOOO! :(
flipping_heck
changed his name from Satan to John.
PR purposes and all that.
(06-19-2007, 04:13 PM)
flipping heck!! PAL gamers like to get bent over all the time.. even though im not interested in Manhunt 2, this is another reason why a Wiiloader needs to come out ASAP
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:14 PM)

Originally Posted by Segata Sanshiro

I'm confident NA will see its release. I can't recall an instance of a game being "Banned in Canada", or the US for that matter.

It would never be 'banned' in the U.S. but there are ways to destroy it's release.

Specifically if you have big chains refusing to carry the game (Walmart, Target, etc) or even pressure on Nintendo to strip it's license from the game.
chase
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:15 PM)
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I can't believe people are supporting this.

Banning things is ok in order to avoid criticism in the press? What the hell?

I hope space flight starts advancing really fast, because there's no "undiscovered" lands left on Earth these days that I can sail to and I don't want to be around when these short-sighted neo-puritans actually enact all the changes they don't realize they stand for.
Segata Sanshiro
(06-19-2007, 04:16 PM)

Originally Posted by Razoric

It would never be 'banned' in the U.S. but there are ways to destroy it's release.

Specifically if you have big chains refusing to carry the game (Walmart, Target, etc) or even pressure on Nintendo to strip it's license from the game.

Well, it is possible to survive being dropped by Walmart. Maxim magazine seems to do alright. As for Nintendo stripping the license, I'm confident of two things: First, that Nintendo is in this thing to make cash dollars, and second, that they sufficiently learned their (financial) lesson from censoring Mortal Kombat.
Branduil
(06-19-2007, 04:16 PM)
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I'm willing to bet most of the people applauding this didn't play the first game.
plagiarize
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ghost

It's just my personal opinion that nothing good can come for a game with such a dark motif, Im not saying it's going to create a wave of murderous kids or anything, I just think its a subset of gaming that raises a lot of questions about the industry and doesn't do anything gameplay or experience wise to jusitify the stick the rest of the industry has to put up with because of it.

and i don't think anything good can come from censorship.

anyone who thinks banning effectively banning manhunt 2 will prevent further censorship in games is stupid.
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:17 PM)

Originally Posted by Ghost

:lol, no. Let's just not make games that sell purely on shock value. Let's have some class and put some thought into what people will enjoy playing and not just 1up the most controversal thing we can think of and watch the money roll in.

Becareful... one of these days a game you potentially are interested in could be dubbed pointless and 'classless' and be banned as well.

That's the thing about freedom of speech, you know it's working when you are the one that's offended.
Setanta
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:19 PM)

Originally Posted by Segata Sanshiro

I'm confident NA will see its release. I can't recall an instance of a game being "Banned in Canada", or the US for that matter.


If going by the clauses in Canada for games (although specific to 1 canadian province)- http://www.ofrb.gov.on.ca/english/page15.htm its a def no no. Lets hope not.
test_account
XP-39Cē
(06-19-2007, 04:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by deftangel

Both Postal's were passed uncut by the BBFC in the UK.

Ok tnx. I find that alittle wierd that Postal 2 went through eventho as mentioned earlier you dont have to be violent in the game to complete it. But still, alot of horrible things you can do in the game, like burn innocent people with gas and pee on the after, crazy stuff hehe O_o
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:21 PM)

Originally Posted by test_account

Ok tnx. I find that alittle wierd that Postal 2 went through eventho as mentioned earlier you dont have to be violent in the game to complete it. But still, alot of horrible things you can do in the game, like burn innocent people with gas and pee on the after, crazy stuff hehe O_o

From what I've seen on Manhunt 2, Postal 2 is far worse. Like you said, you could set 'innocent' people on fire and piss on them and there were racist undertones throughout the entire game.

I think Manhunt 2 is getting a lot of shit because of the Rockstar name.
Haunted
(06-19-2007, 04:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Setanta

:(

That is 2 jurisdictions in Western Europe that usually are leniant towards such things putting an outright ban on it!

COMPLETELY rules out an English language PAL release with this news!! Horrible!

afaik, PAL Wii versions adapt to your system's language, so you should do fine if you import the game from anywhere in PAL land. (Austria or Switzerland are safe bets).


Originally Posted by Branduil

I'm willing to bet most of the people applauding this didn't play the first game.

I think the game goes too far, but I'm not applauding this ban. I tried the first game on PC but got sick of it after the first two levels.
Parl
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:22 PM)
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Everybody run! UK is becoming a police state. Before we know it, police will have more powers to stop citizens and we'll all have ID cards.

Oh wait, this is just a bit of nannying. No ID cards for us. Phew!
AltogetherAndrews
Member
(06-19-2007, 04:24 PM)
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Some dude got arrested for distributing Postal in Sweden, I wonder if the same thing will happen to Manhunt 2? Oh well, they pushed the envelope and it broke. Not exactly unexpected.

Originally Posted by Razoric

From what I've seen on Manhunt 2, Postal 2 is far worse. Like you said, you could set 'innocent' people on fire and piss on them and there were racist undertones throughout the entire game.

I think Manhunt 2 is getting a lot of shit because of the Rockstar name.

It was all over-the-top comedy though. Piss and kill comedy without much funny, but comedy nonetheless.
Stop It
Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
(06-19-2007, 04:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Branduil

I'm willing to bet most of the people applauding this didn't play the first game.

I did, but only a bit (I have to admit my ownership of a PS2 didn't last very long), but I have played to completion all of the GTA games (From the top down to today), and regularly enjoy killing people in CS, and have done for years, I am not against violent games, and to be fair I havent seen the current build of Manhunt 2, so I cannot comment on the game directly, but I respect the BBFC enough to realise that if they deem a game too hot to rate, I'll respect that.

I'll be honest here, society has shown on multiple occasions that it cannot be trusted as a whole, if it could, there wouldn't be any laws at all, and people would self regulate, the fact that statute books round the world are so huge reflects the fact that we cannot be trusted just to do what we want, and the media is included within that, in my honest opinion, any game/film that cannot pass through the BBFC has no place in retailers or for general release full stop.
Branduil
(06-19-2007, 04:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stop It

I did, but only a bit (I have to admit my ownership of a PS2 didn't last very long), but I have played to completion all of the GTA games (From the top down to today), and regularly enjoy killing people in CS, and have done for years, I am not against violent games, and to be fair I havent seen the current build of Manhunt 2, so I cannot comment on the game directly, but I respect the BBFC enough to realise that if they deem a game too hot to rate, I'll respect that.

I'll be honest here, society has shown on multiple occasions that it cannot be trusted as a whole, if it could, there wouldn't be any laws at all, and people would self regulate, the fact that statute books round the world are so huge reflects the fact that we cannot be trusted just to do what we want, and the media is included within that, in my honest opinion, any game/film that cannot pass through the BBFC has no place in retailers or for general release full stop.

I find it somewhat scary you would place a fallible group of individuals on such a pedestal.
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:27 PM)

Originally Posted by AltogetherAndrews

Some dude got arrested for distributing Postal in Sweden, I wonder if the same thing will happen to Manhunt 2? Oh well, they pushed the envelope and it broke. Not exactly unexpected.



It was all over-the-top comedy though. Piss and kill comedy without much funny, but comedy nonetheless.

So Manhunt 2 should add a funny punch line to the crotch rip and everything would be ok? :lol
Segata Sanshiro
(06-19-2007, 04:28 PM)
Well, I certainly hope they get to work on banning all the movies that contain violence on this level. WE HAVE TO PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES.

edit: ban football as well.
Ranger X
Kohler: 1, Ranger X: 0

PS: Itoi > Kojima by a good green country mile
(06-19-2007, 04:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ghost

:lol, no. Let's just not make games that sell purely on shock value. Let's have some class and put some thought into what people will enjoy playing and not just 1up the most controversal thing we can think of and watch the money roll in.

So you know Manhunt2. You've played it. You undertand it's implications, the message it tells and you know about it's tasteless style of being "purely for shock".

I personally think this industry need games that push the envellope. We have to become more open minded to videogames if we want this medium to growth, sell more and becoming more respected. If movies would have stayed at the light comedy state of a Charlie Chaplin mute mini-film, movies wouldn't be the incredible production they are today. Don't read me as i would say "games need more violence", i'm just saying we shy before "different" content that what we are used to while Manhunt seems to tackle delicate stuff and i appreciate that. I would personally be surprised this game is tasteless.
loosus
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:32 PM)

Originally Posted by Stop It

I did, but only a bit (I have to admit my ownership of a PS2 didn't last very long), but I have played to completion all of the GTA games (From the top down to today), and regularly enjoy killing people in CS, and have done for years, I am not against violent games, and to be fair I havent seen the current build of Manhunt 2, so I cannot comment on the game directly, but I respect the BBFC enough to realise that if they deem a game too hot to rate, I'll respect that.

I'll be honest here, society has shown on multiple occasions that it cannot be trusted as a whole, if it could, there wouldn't be any laws at all, and people would self regulate, the fact that statute books round the world are so huge reflects the fact that we cannot be trusted just to do what we want, and the media is included within that, in my honest opinion, any game/film that cannot pass through the BBFC has no place in retailers or for general release full stop.

So basically, you want someone to think for you because you feel incapable of doing it yourself because society supposedly can't be trusted?
Razoric
Banned
(06-19-2007, 04:33 PM)

Originally Posted by Segata Sanshiro

Well, I certainly hope they get to work on banning all the movies that contain violence on this level. WE HAVE TO PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES.

edit: ban football as well.

That's the thing. Of all the things to ban, they ban something as culturally irrelevant as Manhunt 2... a game, if left alone, would be lucky to top 500k in sales worldwide.

Yet these high and mighty watchdogs have no problem letting mainstream graphic violence that reaches millions go right on through. But they care about the people right? :lol

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