Official LAIR thread

[forgeforsaken]

And here's an example of what I'm saying. He seems to be fine with the controls ... and ends up enjoying the game.

Note though that he is on mission four and IGN claims it's mission 5 where he really started to hate the game and the controls.

[Lord Error]

I can honestly say that 7.5 for graphics and 8 for sound is the most surprising thing in that review.
7.5 to me is something completely standard or average, like I dunno, a Tiger Woods game or something to that effect. Lair seemed to have pretty crazy graphics and sound at the very least.

I can say Motorstorm Sixaxis with Bike just pissed me off to no end.

Driving bikes with tilting in motorstorm sucks. But driving trucks and that other bigger vehicles that way is a whole other story and much better. This type of control can work and it can be fun. I kinda understand why F5 stuck with them they way they did. They wanted to force the player to learn to control this way and to have fun the way they wanted them to have fun, but I guess it either doesn't work for some people, or it doesn't work at all.

[Onix]

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/817/817117p1.html 4.9 FROM IGN He complains about sixaxis controls, and gave the graphics a 7.5. Its either hit or miss or all the review sites have thrashed it, and people with the retail copy makes it sound real nice. I will rent first. 8.0 Presentation From the opening movie to the dragon-flying-over-a-map chapter select screen, Lair has you engrossed in its medieval feel, which an interesting story and quality VO perpetuates. 7.5 Graphics It's the definition of a mixed bag. The FMVs look awesome; the in-game stuff looks great but chugs; and the custscenes using in-game assets look framey. 8.0 Sound There's a sweeping score that really captures the moment and some quality voice work, but there are moments when you'll be attacking a catapult and it seems like a sound effect is missing. 4.5 Gameplay A bus-like feel and Sixaxis controls kill this game. In wide-open areas, it's okay, but the moment you need precision, you realize you’re screwed -- you can't corner, target or fight well. 5.5 Lasting Appeal There are leaderboards to track, medals to earn and movies to unlock, but the frustrating control scheme will probably stop you from coming back for more. 4.9

WAIT ... WHAT!?!?!


I didn't even read the full review, nor look at the breakdown.


A 7.5 for graphics


Okay ... no matter what people want to say ... that dising the review means your grasping for straws ... whatever ... I'm sorry, but this review is SHIT if the graphics get a 7.5.

[rs7k]

More like the graphics are a mixed bag and 7.5 is appropriate.

The review makes Lair sound more terrible than it might be, but there's no denying most people who play it will walk away disappointed.

[JdFoX187]

I don't know what he talks about when it comes to the graphics. I've heard that they actually were able to tighten up the framerate.

[Psychotext]

I didn't even read the full review, nor look at the breakdown. A 7.5 for graphics

Read the review. It's obviously a pretty game but the graphics get marked down because of frame rate problems, texture pop and other issues.

[bounchfx]

WAIT ... WHAT!?!?! I didn't even read the full review, nor look at the breakdown. A 7.5 for graphics Okay ... no matter what people want to say ... that dising the review means your grasping for straws ... whatever ... I'm sorry, but this review is SHIT if the graphics get a 7.5.

the first stage? denial.

you wanted it to be good SO BAD so you'd have something to say to those .xbots'.

[Onix]

More like the graphics are a mixed bag and 7.5 is appropriate.

Bullshit. Even if it isn't entirely consistant, if it arguable contains at times some of the best graphics ever seen, and only has relatively minor flaws ... 7.5 is a joke.

The review makes Lair sound more terrible than it might be, but there's no denying most people who play it will walk away disappointed.

Bullshit part 2. Most reports from actual people with the game have been relatively positive.

[Onix]

the first stage? denial. you wanted it to be good SO BAD so you'd have something to say to those .xbots'.

I could care less about reviews ... and actually make my own decisions. I've enjoyed supposed 'crap' games on all systems, and similarly ... have disliked supposed 'amazing' games.



Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that 7.5 seems ridiculous for the graphics score. Similarly, and 8.0 for sound seems BS.

[KachoMakura]

Bullshit. Even if it isn't entirely consistant, if it arguable contains at times some of the best graphics ever seen, and only has relatively minor flaws ... 7.5 is a joke. Bullshit part 2. Most reports from actual people with the game have been relatively positive.

Wow.

[XHitoshuraX]

Bullshit. Even if it isn't entirely consistant, if it arguable contains at times some of the best graphics ever seen, and only has relatively minor flaws ... 7.5 is a joke. Bullshit part 2. Most reports from actual people with the game have been relatively positive.

Yeah Im on the second mission....the controls aren't "bad" per se, its just extremely difficult to lock onto anything. So you end up most of the time circling over the same enemy over and over....

[drohne]

Excuse me, let me choose my words better. They have to work. They have to do what you want them to. Metroid, Zelda, Cooking Mama, whatever: you can certainly point to issues here and there, but no more so than games that use traditional controls can have control issues here and there.

i think i preferred the stronger version. 'you shouldn't force motion controls if they don't work' -- well...yeah. but i'd like traditional controls to be an option whenever real objections can be raised against motion controls. i like that most ps3 games have given players the choice -- and i'd be more inclined to try lair if it had taken that tack.

maybe factor 5 will do a patch if the reviews keep killing them.

[Captain N]

okay so the back of the manual is filled with upcoming PS3 ADs

Uncharted - November 2007
Ratchet & Clank - October 2007
Warkhawk - out now
motorstorm - out now

where is the AD for Heavenly Sword...don't want to let people know it's out in a few weeks?

[dallow_bg]

Friends' impressions:

Ok, I just played a few levels and I hate to say it, but I'm kind of in agreement with IGN. Now I think the score is a bit too low, but all his complaints are spot on. The targeting SUCKS! I can't emphasize it enough. One of the levels I had to take out some catapults, and there were enemy dragons flying around. Problem was I could not lock onto the damn things. I kept locking onto the dragons, and everytime I did the camera would whip around disorienting me. The dragon fighting is fairly lame. Most of the time you have to line yourself up with the sixaxis, then ram into the side of the enemy dragon. It looks really stupid. The takedowns do look cool, but they're too short. It's more fun strafing ships than it is fighting dragons. Kind of sad... Damn shame too since everything else is so good. The non-fighting controls are great. It's easy to steer the dragon, and do all your aerial meanuvears. The game looks great, and the voice acting is excellent. Sucks because the game isn't even a good showpiece since the dragon fights look so damn lame.

[KTallguy]

Wow... I was going to pick this up but GS said they didn't have it in yet.

Finally someone has come up with a legitimate complaint about the controls. If the targeting is that bad, then I wonder how the devs played it...

I remember another game with bad targeting, AC4 :P I did enjoy that though.

IGN score is very scary though... ugh.

[TEH-CJ]

LAIR had soo much potential tho :(

why cant every dev be as talented as insomniac, Bungie, ND, etc etc.. :(

[Boeleni]

I just finished the Bridge level ("Crossing at Dawn") that the IGN review complained about on my first try. Not only that, but I really enjoyed it and it kept me on the edge of my seat!

Honestly I'm not having any trouble with the lock on at all. Get the target in front of you, press lock on. The cutscenes show you what your next target is so it's just a matter of getting the target in front of you and after that it's easy!

Maybe the reviewers are missing the tutorial? After you complete the Prologue mission it opens up "Darklands Traning" and there are 10 or so training exercises. After the combat tutorial you figure out that some dragons only take one fire blast to take out, while others will need some bumping or dragon fighting. It also teaches you about "rage mode" which is how you get to the Takedowns.

I found it helped alot to read the manual before I started playing - the Carnage chain system isn't really explained within the game itself but it basically shows you how you can take out groups of Dragons all at once without having to keep circling around after taking out one.

So far the only complaint I have is the sloppy transitions into cutscenes. I've been waiting a long time to play something other than an FPS or racing game, and this is doing the job just fine.

[Dante]

Game is not bad at all, Graphics are a mixed bag though. Some of the in game cutscenes are really poorly directed. The pre-rendered ones are fine albeit cheesy. So far through two levels I'd say it could end up being a 7.5 Some of the visuals are jaw-dropping......It's a really weird game the more i think about it.

[Tideas]

more user impression.

_______________________

Ok...played the first hour.....I'm at like the 5th stage or something..you're basically defending a bridge.

First things first...take that 4.9 IGN gave it and throw it out the window........secondly.....take the 9 it got from Play was it?....and throw that out the window.

After reading BSV mini review......I can honestly say...I agree a lot with him...but couldn't disagree more with others.

First things first...the graphics......most of it...damn right AWESOME!. When flying over the city everything looks amazing and truly feels like something out of LOTR. However other aspects just look ugly...ie shadows...they have a flicker to them that looks ridiculous...and some things look like they weren't AA at all.....but the biggest flaw is like BSV said....the framerate. it's not even 30fps...infact I swear at times it drops to the low teens.....but this seemed to only happen when fighting on the ground....while it the air.....I'd say it's around 20-25....game is definitly not smooth.....but overall..the graphics will please.

Storyline....yeah.....I'm with BSV.....they may aswell have not had one..well IMO so far...it jumps right in and you have no idea whats happening....and it seems it jumps from one thing to another.

Which brings me to gameplay.......it does the same thing....jumps from one thing to another.

Now I don't mind levels where you go from objective to objective......but not after like 10 seconds. you'll hear you general say..."Ok now take out those dragons"......and after you take out like 5...and seem to get in a rythmn......he then says "ok now take out those catapults"......and it also seems like every couple minutes there is an in game cutscene that interupts everything......so it always feels like you play for 2 min..watch 10 second cutscene...play for 3 min..repeat....I'm hoping this changes later.....not to mention that it's hard to tell exactly what to do....ie...on the level I stopped playing at.....you need to take some girl to a ledge)a in game cutscene shows this ledge) however.....this ledge is located on the bridge which is being atacked......so I fly down to the bridge(as i thought that was my objective)....but I can't land for some reason......and I start spraying fire everywhere...burning up red dudes......and then I get to to a certain point on the bridge and all of a sudden....in game cutscene...I drop this girl off onto the ledge......the dragon was holding this girl but you can't see her because of the camera angle.....oh and get this.....not only was I not doing the correct objective......those quards i was frying?..yup..good guys!!.....lol....but that could just as much be my error.

Ok...now controls...i REALLY like the flying controls..I don't know what BSV is talking about.....the only delay is when you're doing the quick evasive maneuvers like the 180..or the dash...actually just flying the dragon feels awesome....BUT...targeting is a bitch.....it autoaims for the most part..but locking on and trying to get in close for the kill can be a pain as you' can end up targeting a totally different target than you wanted..resulting in some crazy disorientation...not to mention the general guy will be like.."ok attack the ise dragon"...I take a coupple out..."ok now the guardian dragons".....ok the back to the rhinos on the bridge......and all of these things have different weaknesses that you need to remember from a BRIEF tutorial in which it tells you once how to do things(yes..I'l be busting out the manual)

And another complaint a lot of mags and sites had was the ground combat.....they complain about the camera....I've had ZERO camera issues so far...as you control it manually....the only complaint about the ground combat is that the frame rate drops a shitton when you start attacking a bunch of dudes.

I know most of this sounds bad..but really my number one complaint is pacing..as the game always seems to pull you out of the rythmn right wehn you're getting into it...with a dumb in game scene....and that the general is constantly changing objectives every 3 min or so...I mean..fuck dude....let me do whatever....which would add so much more since the battles are HUGE and there is so much going on......not being able to choose when you take out what, kind of takes you out of the moment(well you can do whatever you want...and ignore the general..but you'll likely fail the mission.

So again..a lot of this seems negative...but I'll say this...not one moment out of that hour was I bored. All i could think was....this shit is awesome....I'm flying a fucking dragon!!!! I'm setting things on fire....swating away dozens of soldiers at a time....eating them when i need health......raping other dragon riders on their own dragon(which i stil have no clue how I did that) I'm just going to say it.....so far the game is down right fun! Now this could change if the missions repeat themselves over and over again......and like BSV it'd be nice to be able to fly to different locations and be able to take in the whole city..instwad of jumping on your dragon and having some douche tell me what to do...lol.

So...final verdict on the first hour(I'll write a full review when I'm done the game) It made me realize how much better this game could have been if Factor 5 left out the Rogue Squadren mold and made the game more open world.
The story line isn't going to be anything special..and it's told terribly.........the gameplay jumps all over the place.......the graphics are both freakinf gorgeous and ugly at the same time......but holy shit has this game been fun so far....and I didn't want to stop..but I need to sleep.

Last words for the post(fuck this is long).....DEFINITLY not a 4.9(I can tell IGN focused too much on the technical flaws and concentrted too much on fussy control quirks and bad targeting system and let that get in the way of having fun) but it's not a 8 or 9 either. In the end......you still get that "Holy shit I'm flying a dragon and tearing shit up feeling....and that should be al that matters. Give it a rent if you'e not big on dragons.....but if you like dragons and that medievil flare.....i'd even go as far as say, buy this game....and don't let the technical shit bother you.

[Shrimpboat]

I noticed that the tutorial is not just flying through rings, there are like 10 different ones. After doing all of them at least once I was much better at flying and fighting. I then redid the first level and did much better. I wonder how many people are skipping the tutorials and thinkg the game sucks because they suck?

I finished the first three levels and the game isn't bad. It's a little rough at times, but the story is good and combat is more than just shooting fire balls, some of the take downs are wicked. I also liked swooping down and grabbing guys then throwing them in the wind.

It's a 7/10 so far.

[kaching]

an EB near me had copies tonight.

The game starts off very manic, in a rush to throw you right into the thick of it. You *do* have the option of taking more time with the tutorials but only the first one is mandatory. Skipping them is going to put you in at the deep end, acquainting yourself with the motion controls for flight and controls for other actions that have quite a bit of breadth to them. The game suddenly slows down around level 6/7 where I am now (powerlines at night), which probably would have made a better 1st level to start with.

Motion controls for flight are fine, targeting controls fine as well. What struggles is the camera in often very target-rich environments. It's the camera I'm fighting with, not the motion controls or the targeting.

Visuals have their moments, but lighting is still this game's biggest enemy. It's often too bright, too harsh and completely flares out fine detail in too many cases. It so bright that it makes many surfaces seem as if they are made of aluminum foil and contributes to a lot of shimmer in some scenes than would be present otherwise. When the lighting is reigned in, the detail on hand to behold is quite impressive. It doesn't look like the framerate really got anymore stable for the final release either, most notably when panning the camera around you.

I'd like to see more levels like the one I've left off on where you have a little more opportunity to appreciate what's going on.

[ParticleReality]

So for you guys that have done the tutorials and, well, learned how to play the fucking game pretty much agree that it's an AA game?

[Tideas]

So for you guys that have done the tutorials and, well, learned how to play the fucking game pretty much agree that it's an AA game?

it ain't a 4.9 game, it ain't a 8.9 game.

It's a 7.5 game. gamepro had it down pretty right (amazingly)

[dark10x]

You guys should just totally ignore this guy, too. After all, reviewers are stupid. And they all probably played an early build. And they're bad at games and don't know shit.

Kobun, while I have no doubt that this game is of low quality, in this particular instance, let's not forget the score IGN awarded to God Hand (a game loved by many including myself). Their scores are pretty off the wall at times.

[kaching]

So for you guys that have done the tutorials and, well, learned how to play the fucking game pretty much agree that it's an AA game?

No, it's not AA. But it's not a 5 or lower either. 7/10, so far.

[tanod]

I don't usually give any credence to IGN's opinion anyway but with the delay of Lair and all the impressions I've read, I think I'll just wait for Heavenly Sword which is a week away now and pick up Lair later when it's a bt cheaper.

I definitely still want to play it but being taken out of the experience repeatedly and not being able to have more freedom in the levels really can't account for how well the controls may work or how good it looks. It also sounds that the story isn't very well done either and that was another big point I was excited about. :(

[arcader]

after playing it more lastnight and this morning, and unlike IGN actually being good at games and understanding this doesnt use traditional FPS controls (LOL) I give this game a 7.8..

Good but not GREAT.

I am glad I bought it - and welcome it into my collection.

[Oni Jazar]

Can't they just patch in a way to cycle targets? That sounds like it would help a lot

[Diseased Yak]

after playing it more lastnight and this morning, and unlike IGN actually being good at games and understanding this doesnt use traditional FPS controls (LOL) I give this game a 7.8.. Good but not GREAT. I am glad I bought it - and welcome it into my collection.

Have you finished it yet? How long would you say the game is, give or take?

[kaching]

Can't they just patch in a way to cycle targets? That sounds like it would help a lot

I'm not sure how much that would help, since you can literally have a dozen or more targets to cycle through around you.

[KTallguy]

I'm not sure how much that would help, since you can literally have a dozen or more targets to cycle through around you.

You said the way to target is to use one of the sticks and put what you want to target in the middle of the screen, right?

Is that the 'trick'?

[kaching]

That's just the way it works, there's no real trick to it. It targets what's in your direct line of vision. So you choose the target by where you choose to aim your dragon.

[KTallguy]

That's just the way it works, there's no real trick to it. It targets what's in your direct line of vision. So you choose the target by where you choose to aim your dragon.

So is the camera bad because when you lock on it swings around wildly ? What's the main issue with the camera?

Also, how useful and intuitive is the rage mode?

[Merovingian]

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[Moderation Unlimited]

Most of the hate for this game comes from the mandatory sixaxis control scheme...

Can't Factor 5 put up a downloadable patch that adds other control variations. I mean that would take them probably all of maybe one week to do and would arguably make the game more playable and enjoyable in many reviewers' eyes....not that it's the greatest game but at least it might be considered average that way.

[Psychotext]

<deleted>

[Boeleni]

The first time I booted up the game I had my Driving Force Pro plugged in and the Six-Axis defaulted to player two. After I switched the Six-Axis back to player one the left analog stick controlled the dragon flying. I am playing the game with the Six-Axis controls because I like them, but I guess theoretically you could trick the game into letting you play with analog.

[kaching]

So is the camera bad because when you lock on it swings around wildly ? What's the main issue with the camera?

Camera problems stem from a few different issues. When you're in normal flight mode, the camera gives you a fairly wide range of view from above and behind your dragon but when you initiate some of the different attacks, the camera work gets looser and tries to pan around and zoom in to get better shot of the action. It can often be disorienting when it attempts to switch back to the normal flight camera position. For example, there's a standard attacked mapped to O which is basically a charge/lunge attack which always tries to go to a wide angle to show the kill shot - since it's part of your basic arsenal, you tend to use it a lot and so have to deal with the issue of reorienting yourself when the camera returns to normal.

Another issue is confined spaces - not many cameras handle them gracefully but Lair's camera is far from the best.

Target lock-on contributes a bit to the camera issues, but you'd expect the camera to swing around to follow a locked target to some extent so this is more in the user's control than the other issues.

Also, how useful and intuitive is the rage mode?

Rage vision you mean? I haven't used it much. I've not had the problem of picking out enemies against the environment

[Trevelyan]

I'm on missions 8 or 9, Out of the Ashes, and the game is becoming more enjoyable. THe spotlight mission was pretty tense and fun, and the Firestorm level was pretty thrilling as well. However, as I knew would be the case, the came is a lot more fun once you play the levels you've beaten over again, I'm not sure why, it just is.

Oh yeah, the best part about the game is that I can play most of it with just my right hand and be eating or drinking something with my left.

[Psychotext]

Oh yeah, the best part about the game is that I can play most of it with just my right hand and be ... with my left.

[AlphaSnake]

I'm surprised...but I actually like this game a bit.

[dark10x]

I'm surprised...but I actually like this game a bit.

Unless you've upgraded, you're not even using an HDTV, right? If you could see your targets in SD, it makes the complaints regarding that aspect seem silly.

[dallow_bg]

Was this mentioned?

If you use a controller that doesn't support SIXAXIS (like the Logitech controller), the game switches controls to the analog sticks.
So the support is there.

[.hacked]

Was this mentioned? If you use a controller that doesn't support SIXAXIS (like the Logitech controller), the game switches controls to the analog sticks. So the support is there.

really?

[Orobi]

Was this mentioned? If you use a controller that doesn't support SIXAXIS (like the Logitech controller), the game switches controls to the analog sticks. So the support is there.

WHAT? :O

[AlphaSnake]

Unless you've upgraded, you're not even using an HDTV, right? If you could see your targets in SD, it makes the complaints regarding that aspect seem silly.

Buuuuhh? I've had HD for almost a year now. You're confusing me with someone else.

[AlphaSnake]

Was this mentioned? If you use a controller that doesn't support SIXAXIS (like the Logitech controller), the game switches controls to the analog sticks. So the support is there.

HOLY CRAP! It's true. I just tried it with a USB PC pad...

[Orobi]

HOLY CRAP! It's true. I just tried it with a USB PC pad...

Someone tell this to IGN!
And EGM too. :P

[Aleman]

HOLY CRAP! It's true. I just tried it with a USB PC pad...

So if a USB PC pad works, would a wired 360 pad work?

[teepo]

does it make the game actually good?