Smash Bros. Brawl using Havok Physics after all?

Zeed · (08-25-2007, 09:52 PM)

All credit goes to Gribbix:

Originally Posted by Gribbix:

Remember that rumor a few months ago in EGM that said SSBB uses Havok physics? A lot of people refused to believe it, but it turns out that it's true. Take a look at Havok's upcoming games page:

http://www.havok.com/content/blogcategory/37/78/

Compelling evidence. I know that the reason people doubted that SSBB would use Havok was because it was known for its own unique physics engine. What difference might this inclusion make?

GDGF · (08-25-2007, 09:54 PM)

Figured as much.

usea · (08-25-2007, 09:54 PM)

I'm willing to bet that it will just apply to items and objects and lifeless characters (stamina mode) etc. Not necessarily trajectories and distances of normal combat. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Duderz · (08-25-2007, 09:55 PM)

EGM redeemed.

Hope the inclusion of a new physics engine doesn't makje the game too different from Melee. I'm not familiar with Havok, though, but I've played plenty of games using it.

Jiggy · (08-25-2007, 09:58 PM)

*looks at Havok Physics page*
Well... that's not particularly informative about what this engine actually involves. Oh well. I'll assume Sakurai knows what he's doing.

GamerSoul · (08-25-2007, 10:02 PM)

Well, we know so far that SSBB is gonna have a lot more interaction between characters, items like boxes, and the stages.

Zeed · (08-25-2007, 10:03 PM)

Out of curiosity, the page only says that those games will be using Havok products, not necessarily Havok Physics. EGM aside, is it possible that they're using one of the other Havok tools? There's a lot on that list besides physics that I can see being incorporated:

http://www.havok.com/content/view/72/57/

Haunted · (08-25-2007, 10:06 PM)

I wouldn't be surprised if havok would be used for some of the items/objects - didn't we have a screen in the barrel/crates update where a crate began to slide down a slope because a character jumped on it? I'd guess that might be something where havok is used - surely not for any of the characters, though. :p

ElFly · (08-25-2007, 10:11 PM)

Originally Posted by Zeed:

Out of curiosity, the page only says that those games will be using Havok products, not necessarily Havok Physics. EGM aside, is it possible that they're using one of the other Havok tools? There's a lot on that list besides physics that I can see being incorporated:

http://www.havok.com/content/view/72/57/

Good point.

From checking that list, the other thing that Brawl could be using, is Havok Animation, that does inverse kinematics mainly.

Not that we would notice if they used that one

XSX · (08-25-2007, 10:13 PM)

Would this effect projectiles? It would be cool to (if snake has one) bounce a grenade off a wall and stuff like that.

papercut · (08-25-2007, 10:15 PM)

The game looks like its going to play differently from Melee judging by the videos. The characters seem more floaty, so I wouldn't be surprised if the game was using a different physics engine.

Jiggy · (08-25-2007, 10:18 PM)

Originally Posted by papercut:

The game looks like its going to play differently from Melee judging by the videos. The characters seem more floaty, so I wouldn't be surprised if the game was using a different physics engine.

It looks more like a halfway point between Melee and the original Smash to me. Not sure they would need new resources for that sort of thing, but maybe they would. I'm not exactly knowledgeable here. >_>

badcrumble · (08-25-2007, 10:19 PM)

I can't wait to see Mario's body go limp and slump to the floor, then go flying offscreen when someone taps it by accident.

PkunkFury · (08-25-2007, 10:21 PM)

Originally Posted by Jiggy37:

It looks more like a halfway point between Melee and the original Smash to me.

I hope so, I prefered Smash to Melee anyway. And yeah, when we saw that you could ride crates was when i started thinking the havoc thing may be real. certainly could make for some intresting levels, items and such

Zeed · (08-25-2007, 10:24 PM)

Originally Posted by badcrumble:

I can't wait to see Mario's body go limp and slump to the floor, then go flying offscreen when someone taps it by accident.

Wait a minute, Havok is notorious for that, isn't it? It just so happens that that's how Smash works in the first place - you can only kill someone by sending them flying offscreen! Match made in heaven!

Kafel · (08-25-2007, 10:24 PM)

Looks like Havok did a wholesaler price for Nintendo.

*can't wait to see how Disaster evolved*

smarties00 · (08-25-2007, 10:28 PM)

The site Disaster Day of Crisis is using the technology as well..

Haunted · (08-25-2007, 10:30 PM)

Originally Posted by badcrumble:

I can't wait to see Mario's body go limp and slump to the floor, then go flying offscreen when someone taps it by accident.

yoopoo · (08-25-2007, 10:33 PM)

Haha Guitar Hero 3 too.

Firestorm · (08-25-2007, 10:38 PM)

Originally Posted by usea:

I'm willing to bet that it will just apply to items and objects and lifeless characters (stamina mode) etc. Not necessarily trajectories and distances of normal combat. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I'm hoping this is true.

SSB's physics engine is what makes it SSB.

jarrod · (08-25-2007, 10:45 PM)

Nintendo, SEGA, Capcom and Square Enix internal teams have now all used Havok for major projects...I think that's more big AAA JP studios than even Renderware or UE3 snagged for tools.

Thraktor · (08-25-2007, 10:46 PM)

I thought this was officially announced months ago? It's been on the Havok website for a good while, at least.

Dr.Hadji · 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by usea:

I'm willing to bet that it will just apply to items and objects and lifeless characters (stamina mode) etc. Not necessarily trajectories and distances of normal combat. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The "physics" in Smash go through various levels throughout its development. What you guys like to call "original Smash physics" is most likely a place hold system until more complex interactions are implemented. Early videos of Melee still featured that original SSB system (sticky hits, "auto" combos, ect.) but as the game progressed that old system was dumped.

Looking at the Brawl videos from E3 06 to the newest at E3 07, the same seems to be happening. The newest video in particular has some interesting interactions. Some of which seems to look like actual trajectories to the characters when they're hit. Havok physics or not, at the very least, things like explosions have a different affect on the characters.

Personally, I welcome the addition of such simple physics. Placing things with that physical context would be much preferable to the system we have now.

Odrion · (08-25-2007, 11:24 PM)

Originally Posted by yoopoo:

Haha Guitar Hero 3 too.

WHAT?!

Dies Iræ · (08-25-2007, 11:29 PM)

This is one of the few games where Havok's ridiculous ragdoll will be a welcome addition.

Prime crotch · (08-25-2007, 11:38 PM)

eh
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183974

Leezard · (08-25-2007, 11:48 PM)

Banana Peel + Havok ftw?

I Push Fat Kids · (08-25-2007, 11:49 PM)

Interesting...

pn18 · (08-25-2007, 11:49 PM)

SSBB also needs euphoria:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ae3fgj2x1aI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3bKphYfUk-M

papercut · (08-26-2007, 12:03 AM)

Originally Posted by pn18:

SSBB also needs euphoria:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ae3fgj2x1aI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3bKphYfUk-M

Smash DOES NOT need physics this complicated. Having set trajectories for various actions and (mostly) fixed event outcomes keeps the gameplay from becoming too random.

XSX · (08-26-2007, 12:12 AM)

Originally Posted by papercut:

Smash DOES NOT need physics this complicated. Having set trajectories for various actions and (mostly) fixed event outcomes keeps the gameplay from becoming too random.

This thread is starting to de-rail.

Zeed · (08-26-2007, 12:15 AM)

Originally Posted by XSX:

This thread is starting to de-rail.

It wasn't until you came and said it was.

Originally Posted by Dies Iræ:

This is one of the few games where Havok's ridiculous ragdoll will be a welcome addition.

That was one of the points I was making earlier on. But reading up on Havok, it seems to be a mostly 3D engine for FPS and such - has it ever been applied to a 2D (or rather 2.5D) game before?

ShockingAlberto · (08-26-2007, 12:20 AM)

It seems like it will be used as a framework for things like the rolling boxes.

The videos don't show the physics being that different from Melee at all.

Suburban Cowboy · (08-26-2007, 12:39 AM)

some of you are forgetting SSBMelee had some fucked up physics. Some times you would be smashed off the side of a level, and all of a sudden your trajectory changed and you shot down. Other times you would skid across the map unintentionally

Elfforkusu · (08-26-2007, 12:52 AM)

Havok is a library. You can do a lot with a library. If SSBB is using it, the upshot will be that they'll be able to do exactly what they want to without having to reinvent the wheel as they go. I seriously doubt they'd have to change anything to accomidate the engine.

I mean, it's not like you just plop in a few function calls and call it done.

Firestorm · (08-26-2007, 12:54 AM)

Originally Posted by Suburban Cowboy:

some of you are forgetting SSBMelee had some fucked up physics. Some times you would be smashed off the side of a level, and all of a sudden your trajectory changed and you shot down. Other times you would skid across the map unintentionally

Skidding unintentionally (well, unexplainably) is something that I've never seen happen. The trajectory thing is only something I've seen with Marth's counter but I remember Dr. Hadji saying it happens in other circumstances too.

ninj4junpei · (08-26-2007, 01:23 AM)

Originally Posted by yoopoo:

Haha Guitar Hero 3 too.

I'm more suprised by Disney Princess : Enchanted Journey.

drohne · (08-26-2007, 01:25 AM)

you know what this means, kids -- you might finally get a good peek up peach's skirt, see if she has or has not 'got it'

pn18 · (08-26-2007, 01:28 AM)

Originally Posted by papercut:

Smash DOES NOT need physics this complicated. Having set trajectories for various actions and (mostly) fixed event outcomes keeps the gameplay from becoming too random.

you don't get what euphoria is, right?

papercut · (08-26-2007, 01:46 AM)

Originally Posted by pn18:

you don't get what euphoria is, right?

I'm just making a general observation.

Jiggy · (08-26-2007, 01:58 AM)

Originally Posted by drohne:

you know what this means, kids -- you might finally get a good peek up peach's skirt, see if she has or has not 'got it'

You could already do that in SSBM.
Though I guess it depends on one's definition of "good."

Darkpen · (08-26-2007, 02:08 AM)

Originally Posted by Jiggy37:

You could already do that in SSBM.
Though I guess it depends on one's definition of "good."

You could do that with Peach and Zelda.

Zeed · (08-26-2007, 02:09 AM)

Originally Posted by Darkpen:

You could do that with Peach and Zelda.

Zelda? Really? I never knew that.

Dr.Hadji · (08-26-2007, 04:11 AM)

Originally Posted by Firestorm:

Skidding unintentionally (well, unexplainably) is something that I've never seen happen. The trajectory thing is only something I've seen with Marth's counter but I remember Dr. Hadji saying it happens in other circumstances too.

Yup. From vertical smashes there's a very small chance that you can bounce off an "invisible wall" and come straight back down. There's also a small chance that you can just STOP.

I think I have a youtube video of Falco getting smashed from behind, but then he takes the momentum and turns it into an attack to hit a jigglypuff. I'll see if I can find it. This kind of momentum based transfer is probably the rarest example I can think of.

Besides those trajectory quirks in Melee, there's a lot of other kinds of interactions that we take for granted. Like.... when you throw an item straight up at an opponent, why do they fly horizontally and out. Shouldn't they fly straight up. It's the same with bombs and explosions. Why when you are hit in the head by a blast do you fly up and out. Shouldn't you be crushed downward.

This new, more natural type of interaction is already present in the 15 second video. I'll see what I can do about getting some clear pictures.

Nuclear Muffin · (08-26-2007, 10:04 AM)

Humm, this is very unusual for Nintendo I don't think they've ever usual any outside middleware ever (Except for Musx from Factor 5)

If they are using Havok, then it'll probably only be for certain things like projectiles and crumbling floors and such.