• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

Victrix
*beard*
(09-12-2007, 08:26 PM)
Victrix's Avatar
With a tiny handful of notable exceptions (Ikaruga ~6 years old), R-Type Final (~4 years old) and Gradius 5 (~3 years old), not many major or recognizable shooters make their way over here. The few that do (often hampered by poor ports or ugly translations) often go unnoticed.

Now, unfortunately, a lot of really cool shooters are arcade only. While getting into arcade games is cheaper than you might think, it's still a bit more of a pain than most people are willing to go through.

It is possible to play a good number of these via emulation, at least the older ones, and a few did receive console ports of varying quality. Most pre-2000 shooters can be played via emulation.

A fair number shooters are still being ported to consoles in Japan, and can easily (and not excessively expensively) be imported. I ordered quite a few online from US importers without paying any sort of heinous price premium - though they tend to go out of stock, you can still find them with a bit of searching.

A lot of Naomi games are ported to the Dreamcast, yes, that zany system that just won't die in the deluded hearts of gamers lives on, courtesey of random arcade ports.

There are several other companies producing and releasing shooters in the arcades in japan, and a fair number of those do receive home ports - all you need to do is know they exist, then import them.

I apologize for the cruddy screenshot quality and the ultra-bad youtube videos, it's hard to find good screenshots of these, since there aren't very many good US fansites for shooters

The shmups forum has lots of shooter talk on the latest releases, it's a good place to go for information, and they have some phenomenal systems faqs for various shooters.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=5

It's easy to discount shooters as being simplistic, but it isn't until you start examining the mechanics at work that you begin to realize just how complicated some of the more recent games are. This is especially true if you're playing for a 1 credit clear, or working on a real high score - mashing continue and beating the game in 15 minutes is rather missing the point entirely.

Some of these games have some really elegant and interesting scoring mechanics that encourage or force you to play a certain way to be really successful. Some are more lenient than others, allowing room for your individual playstyle and skill. Most are not even remotely apparent when you're diving in with no prior knowledge - yes, you really do need a manual for a shooter.

Here's a link to the ESP Galuda faq, since I think it's one of Cave's more newbie-friendly manic shooters. The other would be Mushi, since it can be played in modes that feel considerably less manic than the others presented here:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=134


======================================================

Cave
One of the forerunners of the manic shooter genre, beginning with DonPachi, formed from the remnants of Toaplan, the company that did some cool older games like Batsugan.
http://www.cave.co.jp/
http://www.world-of-arcades.net/Cave/cave.htm



DoDonPachi - released in 1997, a sequel to DonPachi, and a very cool game. One of the earliest truly manic shooters, with buckets of bullets being thrown at you, and an unforgiving chaining system.

There was actually a direct sequel to DDP, other than DaiOuJou, but it was developed by a Taiwanese company and was not, as far as I know, especially good (DDP II)

DDP allowed you to choose from a variety of fighters (fast and front focused, slow and spread focused, or fucking weird), and then farther allowed you to choose to focus your power on either your spread shot or your beam shot. The spread generally made the levels easier, and a stronger beam generally made bosses easier.

DDP also had absurdly cool bombs, allowing you to either drop a normal screen clearing bomb that would do dick all to a boss (except save your ass), or to use a bomb while firing your beam, which would supercharge the beam (ideal for raping bosses).

Naturally, high scoring involved using no bombs, chaining enemies perfectly, and not dying - oh, and you could only access the real last boss by looping the game, and it would only loop if you kicked enough ass the first time. Right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6xUTX7u1Qg

======================================================

The sequel to DDP, DoDonPachi DaiOuJou (2002 - DDPDOJ), was murderously unforgiving. With practice, I was able to get to the last boss in DDP after a few weeks on one credit. DOJ locked me down hard on the third stage boss.

DOJ was notable for having an absurdly awesome 'Hyper' mode, allowing you to unload with monstrous beams of energy or screen clearing wide shot. Unfortunately using it increased the difficulty, so while it was fun to use, the only real way to utilize the Hyper system without making the game even more impossibly difficult was to chain from Hyper to Hyper, which is even harder than chaining successfully in DDP. Fun game, but too hard for my tastes.

Much like DDP, you could choose a fast or slow ship, but then you could pick a 'doll' (ie, jlolibot), customizing the ship for spread/laser, or both, but at the cost of maximum bomb stock.




Hyper mode, shots showing hori mode on the ps2 version (it supports tate as well)


DOJ also had (at the time) one of the most insane true last bosses ever, the source of many a confused comment from a youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w06PacV5FRY

DOJ also has a seriously kickass soundtrack, proper nerds in the audience might recognize the name Hitoshi Sakimoto (who also did songs for Battle Garegga, and a few others)

DOJ is available on the PS2, you can import it and play it with any ps2 capable of running japanese games.

======================================================

ESP Rade (1998), and it's sequel ESP Galuda (2003) (which then received a sequel of its own, ESP Galuda 2 (2005))

Rade was notable for it's 'human' characters and enemies, rather than entirely ships. Otherwise, its significant gameplay mechanics were a bomb 'energy meter' that could be used for short bursts of invulnerability, or charged to blast bosses. The scoring system encouraged killing enemies point blank, quite fun.

It was also possible to set the order of the first several stages (something very common in Psikyo shooters), providing some variation for the beginning of the game (handy, when you spend so much time replaying the early stages of most shooters). Depending on the order, the difficulty of the stages and bosses would change.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s3gljIB8Ho

======================================================

ESP Galuda (2003) is a) available on the PS2 and b) one of the most forgiving manic shooters out there, making it a highly recommended title if you'd just like to check out one game on the list.

It has a couple of nifty systems. For one, under certain circumstances, if you get hit, it essentially auto-bombs, making it considerably more forgiving than most other manic shooters.

In addition, it's core gameplay mechanic involves transforming (and transgendering, but whatever), a process that slows down the action onscreen, giving you more time to dodge. This is actually tied intimitely to the scoring system, as certain enemies will actually pump out more bullets (despite them moving more slowly) while in slowdown, and killing them while in slowdown transforms bullets into golde.

While not transformed, killing 'popcorn' (small, weak) enemies gives you green crystals, used to sustain the slowdown transform mode.

Another game with great music, and quite a bit of fun.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aaA7hLXGCs

======================================================

Mushihimesama (2004) in addition to being a mouthful, is a bit of a departure for Cave. It has a unique mode select that allows you to choose the overall pacing and intensity of the game. On one end, it feels rather more like Raiden - very fast bullets, lots of nasty stuff aimed at you, but generally less giant fields of slow moving pain (the slow burn manic style, especially noticable in Galuda where you can slow down huge patterns). On the other, it feels like the enemies are simply pouring buckets of bullets down on your head.

This time around, you get to fly around as a magical bug princess, yay! (whut) fighting off hordes of evil bugs (whut). Rather than the ship/character select typical in Cave's other games, this time there are a variety of shot and option types that can be picked up while playing, each with different spread patterns and usage.

Mushi is available on the PS2



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU5jzrsR9Uc

Note this video is not representative of the game as a whole, you can play it on much more relaxed settings, this is just show-off material.


======================================================

Ibara (2005) is one of Cave's more recent games, and is unique for several reasons. First, it is very, very similar in feel to Battle Garegga, a popular shooter from the company Raizing, who also did several other pretty cool shooters (Armed Police Batrider et al).

Garegga was unique for its incredibly vicious rank system. Almost everything you could do in the game actually made it harder - including firing your weapons! Dying would lower your rank, so playing the game well was this insane mix of high scoring techniques to rack up extra lives, suiciding to lower rank, and repeating through to the end. Needless to say, without an understanding of the rank system at work here, playing it 'normally' just felt like an exercise in frustration as the enemies and bosses got ever more difficult.

So then - Ibara is a strange item, as it is a product of Cave, but largely designed by the Raizing team, so it looks like some of Cave's more recent work, but plays and feels a lot like a spiritual sequel to Battle Garegga. This is not to my personal tastes, but it is unique. Like DOJ, Galuda, and Mushi, it is available on the PS2.

Oh, also nipples/panty shots. Whut.





======================================================

Since Ibara, Cave has done a sequel to Mushi, Galuda 2, the Ibara sequel Pink Sweets (notable for even more panty shots).

This year, there's Muchi Muchi Pork, which I don't even know how to describe. I found a brief article on a banned site, just google for it. It involves pigs and a lard meter.

and Tenshi No Juusha

which I have no clue about

======================================================


When I started this post, my intent was to go over a bunch of companies, and show just how many companies are actively making shooters, and how many have home ports that can be imported - but I quickly realized that just covering Cave would take me hours (which it did, and this is skin deep coverage).

Cave's older games are probably best played emulated (specifically DDP and Rade, though I believe DDP has a PS and Saturn port, I don't think either is great)

Dodonpachi Daioujou, ESP Galuda, Mushihimesama, and Ibara can all be imported for the PS2. DOJ and Galuda came out from Arika, and Taito published Mushi and Ibara.

I don't know if their more recent games will receive ports soon, and I completely skipped Ketsui (a really cool, arcade only helicopter shooter with constantly scrolling backgrounds and a funky lock-on laser weapon, with a scoring system that feels a bit like Rade's in play)

It's easy to throw a bunch of screenshots and some crappy youtube videos out to make a post about shooters, it is damned hard to describe exactly why shooters are so completely fucking awesome.

Until you've had the rush of your first 1cc clear of a seriously badass shooter, it's a hard thing to communicate. It's also really hard to get into them 'cold', where you're either new, or the last shooter you played was some godawful home port of a 15 year old arcade game. I'd be happy to answer any questions, as I'm able to - I know there are a few hardcore shooter fans in the GAF crowd, some much more knowledable than me about the genre.

My interest and enjoyment comes from two types of shooters - the really thickly atmospheric horizontal shooters (of which Cave has done precisely none, and which I haven't covered here at all), some of which aren't nearly as hard as the rougher games (R-Type Final is a decent example of this, I'd even go as far back as something like Axelay to describe what I'm talking about).

The second, and the one that got me back into shooters hard some years ago is the incredibly brutal manic shooter. From the first few seconds of playing DDP and raping a screenful of enemies with that uber laser, I was hooked. Dodging a screen full of bullets is a real rush as well, a feeling I don't get from very many other games at all (high level fps competition is all that comes to mind).

I can think of a lot of reasons this genre isn't very popular in the states, but I can't think of any good reasons that a gaming community as well educated and hip to obscure games as GAF seems so oblivious to it.

It does take a bit of work to keep on top of games that aren't coming out here, and then a bit of cash to actually import them, but if you find your preferred niche in the shooter genre, you can have a lot of fun.

Cave's excessively manic offerings are only one style of shooter, there are others, including horizontal games, ripoffs of popular shooters, and others, more atmospheric horizontal games, games focused more or less on scoring, on hard stages, or hard bosses, on custom routes through levels, on strange systems, or just outright weirdness. Some have more forgiving shield systems or mechanics that outright let you play with bullets - Takumi's excellent Mars Matrix and Gigawing series was entirely focused on messing with giant loads of bullets with no fear.

They aren't all incredibly difficult, though it does take some skill to become proficient, you can play and enjoy a wide range of shooters without needing some of the absurd technique demonstrated in some of the exhibition videos I posted (every boss in every shooter is not DOJ's true last boss).

And please, no more UN Squadron #1 lists, it hurts me.
Souther
Banned
(09-12-2007, 08:27 PM)
Souther's Avatar
Great job on the thread. Shooters own.
Munin
Member
(09-12-2007, 08:32 PM)
You lose for not mentioning Dangun Feveron; most underrated Cave game ever.
sixteen-bit
Member
(09-12-2007, 08:32 PM)
Awesome thread.

Extra Props for no Progear.
Vangellis
Member
(09-12-2007, 08:33 PM)
Progear and Dangun Feveron are missing
Chromax
Member
(09-12-2007, 08:35 PM)
Chromax's Avatar
Yes they're awesome, their games and Touhou's game = all the shootemup I need! :D
djtiesto
is beloved, despite what anyone might say
(09-12-2007, 08:40 PM)
djtiesto's Avatar
Great post, and yeah I agree - everybody should check out what's been going on in the shooter genre since it fell out of favor in the US in the late 90's. And yeah, I'd second the recommendation of ESPGaluda... it's my personal favorite shmup, and I think the kakusei mode is genius for people who are newcomers to bullet-dodging (and an interesting gameplay concept on top of that!). Wasn't a big fan of Ibara, although I thought the graphics were some of the best yet. And it's a total shame that people were screwed out of home ports of Ketsui (I don't count the DS game), ESPGaluda 2, Muchi Muchi Pork, Mushihime-sama Futari, Guwange, ESP RaDe, Dangun Feveron and Progear.

Some other Cave games you haven't mentioned, that are all playable on MAME:

Dangun Feveron - disco themed shooter, with a great soundtrack and a retro-future aesthetic, where you are collecting dancing people in glowing balls to raise score. Very fast moving, not everyone's cup of tea.

Guwange - an ancient Japanese aesthetic, has unique scrolling (portions of the stage move from left to right, while your character is always oriented facing north).

Progear - absolutely beautiful, brightly-colored graphics, a collab between Cave and Capcom (did Capcom just publish or did they have some hand in the graphics)? Horizontal shmup, has a sort of steampunk setting.
Geezer
Broken water pistol loaded with piss
(09-12-2007, 08:41 PM)
Ketsui>All other shooters bar Guwange.
LuCkymoON
Banned
(09-12-2007, 08:43 PM)
LuCkymoON's Avatar
Does anyone know if Viper Phase I was ever released on a home console? I know its not a Cave shooter but its my fav shooter ever.:D
Cromulent_Word
Capybara Games

Also, a genuinely nice human being
(09-12-2007, 08:44 PM)
Cromulent_Word's Avatar
A++ would read again.
Vangellis
Member
(09-12-2007, 08:44 PM)

Originally Posted by _dementia

Awesome thread.

Extra Props for no Progear.

Just curious what didnt you like about Progear? Its not my favorite cave shooter, but the steampunk art style is pretty damn good. It does feel different since its the only side scrolling cave shooter made.
meppi
Member
(09-12-2007, 08:47 PM)
meppi's Avatar

Originally Posted by Victrix

Cave's older games are probably best played emulated (specifically DDP and Rade, though I believe DDP has a PS and Saturn port, I don't think either is great)

Just wondering, have you played either the Saturn or PSone version of DDP?

As I find it very peculiar that you slate these particular conversions as being not that great.
Especially the PSone game that was programmed by SPS, who did an absolutely astounding job with the conversion as compared to the few small mistakes Atlus made with the Saturn game.
Victrix
*beard*
(09-12-2007, 08:47 PM)
Victrix's Avatar

Originally Posted by Geezer

Ketsui>All other shooters bar Guwange.

I really, really like Ketsui and Guwange. Friend has a Ketsui board, which is quite a treat - I was bummed about the lack of a port.

However, I didn't want to list all of Cave's games, or only ones that were either arcade only, or emulation only, or very old. Part of the point was to show that a) they're still being made and b) you, yes you, Joe GAF Reader can purchase them right now on the internets and play them for the funz
XHitoshuraX
Banned
(09-12-2007, 08:48 PM)
wait...why the hell did you say Cruddy?


Great Thread btw
Victrix
*beard*
(09-12-2007, 08:48 PM)
Victrix's Avatar

Originally Posted by meppi

Just wondering, have you played either the Saturn or PSone version of DDP?

As I find it very peculiar that you slate these particular conversions as being not that great.
Especially the PSone game that was programmed by SPS, who did an absolutely astounding job with the conversion as compared to the few small mistakes Atlus made with the Saturn game.

Both - I dunno, I just found that the experience was better emulated. Though there were a lot of damn fine Saturn arcade ports, I didn't want to do another 'omg look shooter nostalgia' thread. There are good NEW and recent games being made, and they largely go ignored outside a very small subset of gamers (the subset currently jumping in the thread with glee, we'll see if we can get some fresh fish)
jarrod
Banned
(09-12-2007, 08:50 PM)
What happened with Ketsui DS, is Arika still doing it?
Geezer
Broken water pistol loaded with piss
(09-12-2007, 09:01 PM)

Originally Posted by Victrix

I really, really like Ketsui and Guwange. Friend has a Ketsui board, which is quite a treat - I was bummed about the lack of a port.

Gotcha, I recently sold my Ketsui as need the cash and it goes for a pretty insane amount these days!
A bunch of guys at Shmups are making an effort to get it dumped and emulated, so hopefully everyone will be able to enjoy it soon:D

With regards to games in this thread, I implore anyone with any interest in shooters and an import capable PS2 to pick up Espgaluda. It is IMO the best shooter available on a console, very accessible, great graphics+music and loads of replay value. Furthermore, Arika did a damn fine job on the port, it's arcade perfect plus it has arrange modes and a superplay so it's very good value for money.
meppi
Member
(09-12-2007, 09:02 PM)
meppi's Avatar
Fair enough. I have to admit that my dislike for emulators might play a part. ;)

You're right about newer shmups being overlooked quite a bit in comparison to the more classic ones. But then again I feel that the shmup world of today seems to only have a very limited pallet compared to say 10 years ago.

Even though I love the new shmups in this thread, and I can't wait to finally try out Under Defeat on the DreamCast, I personally would gladly trade some of these in to get more games in the veign as Dragon Blaze, Kyukyo Tiger and Layer Section to name only a few.
Geezer
Broken water pistol loaded with piss
(09-12-2007, 09:02 PM)

Originally Posted by jarrod

What happened with Ketsui DS, is Arika still doing it?

Yes it's still coming. It's a boss rush game not a full port though. It should still be fun though:D
Victrix
*beard*
(09-12-2007, 09:02 PM)
Victrix's Avatar

Originally Posted by jarrod

What happened with Ketsui DS, is Arika still doing it?

Still coming out I think, not sure who's doing it. Bizarro modified boss-rush game of some sort?

Not exactly what I'm looking for, can't play a proper shooter on a handheld screen.

Come to think of it, aspect ratio in general is a pita for shooters and shooter ports. Since a lot of verts wind up oddly squashed when they get ported, it fucks with the gameplay (or at least your perception of it).

Rotating a tv is too much of a pain, so you either have to suffer with the squashed view, or have an extra display device of some sort that can rotate more easily.

Bonus cleaner DOJ ownage video
http://bigcore.rsdio.com/zakk/stuff/flv/

Incidently, though I didn't mention it explicitly, the Dreamcast is a *great* system for stocking up on a bunch of ports, Gunbird 2, Zero Gunner 2, Mars Matrix, Gigawing 1 & 2, Bangai-O, Ikaruga of course, and a whole fuckton of more recent Naomi ports.

As for potential ports/new games on new systems, I dimly recall hearing about some more recent games coming to the Wii. I don't remember offhand of any announcements for the 360. I'm not sure one way or another where shooter ports will end up in the future, I'm hopeful that it'll continue to be possible to import various shooters from Japan without too much hassle (I'm not quite delusional enough to believe we'll be seeing a surge in US releases any time soon, not unless a major resurgence in popularity occurs somehow)
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
(09-12-2007, 09:04 PM)
Awesome thread.

Everyone should at least play Dodonpachi and Espgaluda before they die. Everyone.


PS1 Dodonpachi in vertical mode on PSP = pocket heaven in your pocket.
Victrix
*beard*
(09-13-2007, 01:47 AM)
Victrix's Avatar

Originally Posted by meppi

You're right about newer shmups being overlooked quite a bit in comparison to the more classic ones. But then again I feel that the shmup world of today seems to only have a very limited pallet compared to say 10 years ago.

Even though I love the new shmups in this thread, and I can't wait to finally try out Under Defeat on the DreamCast, I personally would gladly trade some of these in to get more games in the veign as Dragon Blaze, Kyukyo Tiger and Layer Section to name only a few.

It's entirely possible that there are more 'relaxed' shooters being released directly on the home consoles in Japan, I just don't know what they are, if anything. I'd assume that in general, news of them would leak back. I do rather miss games of that nature, I can only assume they simply aren't profitable even there, or at least some would still be developed.

As far as Dragon Blaze, afaik, Psikyo is completely gone :( I think their last game was Zero Gunner 2 (which can be imported for the DC). Taito was bought by Square, I don't know if they've done any recent shooters at all. I don't have the faintest clue about Kyukyo.

It's not all gloom and doom though, there are others still making various shooters. Even poking around on wiki can reveal a decent list of them. Milestone, born from the ashes of Compile has done several Dreamcast games, ported to GC (and Wii?) Chaos Field, Radilgy, Karous (this year, on Dreamcast! http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-...-70-1s2a.html). Fucking bizarre mechanics in all of their games. Chaos Field feels like a weird mix of Silvergun, Ikaruga, and something else. Radilgy and Karous are just straight up strange.

*boggle* ok I missed that, Chaos Field http://www.o3games.net/o3/?page_id=32 did come out for the GC here from O3. Some poking around, it sounds like Radilgy was going to come out as Radio Allergy on the GC here but got canned, so maybe on the Wii along with Karous? Dunno.

I don't *think* Irem is still doing shooters, but if we're unbelievably lucky, we might get R-Type Tactics. Ok well, lucky for me, since I love both shooters and srpgs :P

Raizing/8ing seems to do only anime bleach/naruto stuff now, but their shooter dude went to Cave, and that's where Ibara/Pink Sweets came from I think, so yay for that.

Giga Wing Generations from Takumi did get a PS2 port in 2005, and poking around on their homepage shows a few more recent puzzle games, which seems to be the norm for a lot of shooter companies - they do puzzle games, then occasionally release a shooter.

More post 2000 DC gaming, Border Down and Under Defeat from G.Rev, though most gaffers probably know them best for Senko No Ronde (Wartech lawl), a dreadfully misunderstood game that is only fun when played against another human, yet (afaik?) got reviewed as a single player game?

Annnd, Trigger Heart Excelica, from the guys who did Shienryu (sp) some time ago, which came out for, yes, the DC, last year.

Hmm who else... XII Stag, Trizeal, and the upcoming Exzeal from Triangle Service. Big blech from me for XII Stag and Trizeal, but yet another developer.

Phew. There's probably more, that's just a bunch from memory and poking around in my collection and online.

I really can't think of any more sedate console style shooters, I think Thunderforce 6 had an incomplete ghetto release as Broken Thunder (indeed)

I'm mean, so I'm not talking about Raiden 3. Supposedly there's a 360 live version of Raiden 4 in dev? not sure.

Anyhow, dinner time, more later.
rollingstart
Member
(09-13-2007, 01:48 AM)
this thread is awesome.
leroy hacker
Member
(09-13-2007, 02:02 AM)

Originally Posted by Victrix

Raizing/8ing seems to do only anime bleach/naruto stuff now, but their shooter dude went to Cave, and that's where Ibara/Pink Sweets came from I think, so yay for that.

I'm pretty sure there were at least two groups at Raizing making shooting games in parallel. Yogawa led development of some, but I think the rest of the people, who had worked on the Aleste games or come from Toaplan, are still at 8ing or nowhere. Also, I don't think any of the Compile founders(in particular, the staff of Zanac) ever went into any of the Compile spinoffs however, except for Aiky and Compile Heart, which don't make shooters.

Taito was bought by Square, I don't know if they've done any recent shooters at all.

G. Rev was formed from former Taito developers.


There's a lot of information about the modern shmup landscape in this Edge interview from 2 years ago with G. Rev, Milestone, and Triangle Service:
http://www.edge-online.co.uk/archive...small_guns.php

My understanding of some shooter genealogies:

............Milestone
............/
Compile----->Aiky--->Compile Heart
.............\
............Raizing->8ing
............/.../....\
Yogawa..../.......\
............./...........\
..........Toaplan - > Cave
............\
...........Takumi


Taito
.....\
....G. Rev

(I needed to add all these periods to get it formatted correctly for some reason.
Last edited by leroy hacker; 09-13-2007 at 02:27 AM.
ezekial45
I have assigned to you one day for each year its punishment will last.
(09-13-2007, 02:04 AM)
ezekial45's Avatar
I think this is a good to ask. Does anyone remember the vertical shooter where you could grab objects and toss them back at the enemies? I remember seeing the a video of it awhile, but i forgot the name.
Victrix
*beard*
(09-13-2007, 02:08 AM)
Victrix's Avatar

Originally Posted by ezekial45

I think this is a good to ask. Does anyone remember the vertical shooter where you could grab objects and toss them back at the enemies? I remember seeing the a video of it awhile, but i forgot the name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DA8b8dDI2M

Trigger Heart Exelica?
adversesolutions
Member
(09-30-2008, 08:40 AM)
adversesolutions's Avatar
Hey Victrix, awesome thread that I think deserves to be resurrected. I've taken the liberty of doing some write-ups on some of the games you did not include. I don't know a lot about Espgaluda 2 and Pink Sweets, so their descriptions are a bit lacking, and I didn't include Muchi Muchi Pork, a very fun and interesting shooter in a similar vein as Ibara. So there's still plenty to write up. I hope the information that I have here is correct and welcome any clarifications.

I've included information about some of CAVE's black labels, which are updated versions of the original game with revisions to the system/design.

Ketsui (2003)

Ketsui was a game that came out quite soon after Dodonpachi Daioujou, and since both had a strong military aesthetic and featured brutal difficulty, was overlooked for awhile. However, that has thankfully changed and Ketsui has proven to be an incredible game that many players consider to be one of CAVE's best.

The scoring system here is based around proximity to the enemy, as well as alternating between shot and laser for popcorn and stronger enemies. In other words, you want to get as close as you can to the popcorn enemies (which die in a hit or so) and kill them. Doing so will give you a chip with a value of 1 to 5, 5 being the highest. You then have a certain time window within to kill the next bigger enemy with your laser and if you can do it before the timer runs out you will be rewarded with a bunch of chips which in turn boost your score. So the game involves a lot of strafing along weak enemies and then lasering stronger ones, giving it a very dynamic feel.

It is certainly one of CAVE's tougher shooters and not recommended for beginners. A more in-depth review here:
http://insomnia.ac/reviews/custom/ketsui/

Great playthrough here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcBJUBc-3qY

Ketsui is getting ported to the XBOX360 and will probably be out by the end of the year. Look for more info at TGS.  Placeholder page at 5pb, the company making the port:
http://5pb.jp/games/div2/xb360/

A boss rush version of Ketsui will also be coming to DS this October 23rd with what promises to include an incredible superplay DVD of the arcade version.

See here for the Japanese page:
http://www.arika.co.jp/product/ketsui_hp/







----------

Espgaluda 2 (2005)

The sequel to the original Espgaluda improves on much of the original and adds new flavor to the 'kakusei' mode. Haven't played this one too much so will leave this to Insomnia's review here: http://insomnia.ac/reviews/custom/es...aii/review.php







----------

Ibara Black Label (2006)

A fresh update of the original Ibara which adds bullet grazing, the multiplier-based XTC system and lets your ship pull in items which you had to go fetch in the original Ibara. All this adds up to a much more deliberate and complex game than the original while having a certain resemblance to the original Ibara's arrange mode, available on the PS2 version.

It's a shame that the PS2 version of Ibara is such a poor port. Really, Black Label seems to be the best and most interesting version of the game but also the rarest. Hard to find even in Japanese arcades but highly regarded.

EOJ's in-depth review of the game can be read here: http://www.cave-stg.com/reviews/ikbl.html







----------

Pink Sweets (2006)

Another game by programmer Shinobu Yagawa, well-known for creating Battle Garegga and Ibara, this is in fact the sequel to Ibara. The game had several glitches which unfortunately led it to a dismal showing in the arcade, and little information is available in English about it. I will defer again to Insomnia's review here:
http://insomnia.ac/reviews/custom/pinksweets/review.php







----------

Mushihimesama Futari (2006) & Mushihimesama Futari Black Label (2007)

Both of these games are two of CAVE's highest quality works and really show off the SH-3 technology. Sequels to the original Mushihimesama, this time you can choose between Reco, the red-haired girl and Palm, a blonde boy in their quest to take down Queen Larsa.

Scoring here differs a bit between the original Futari and Black Label. You have a stage counter and an overall counter at all times, which act as multipliers for your score and climb as you collect gems. These gems are generated when you destroy enemies. To get large ones which are worth more points, you will need to (in the original game) destroy enemies with shot when your 100 digit is between 1 and 4 and with laser when it's between 5-9. Black Label similarly requires you to alternate between shot and laser but this time you have to alternate everytime your stage counter hits a new multiple of 300, i.e. 600, 900, 1200 etc.

So yeah, a lot of alternating shots, along with a Ketsui-esque proximity system which increases the multiplier and produces gems close up against the enemy. Both these systems combine to encourage a high-risk, no-mistake play which is very engaging.

We may see a port of this game at some point.

Video replay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRnVJ2naQqg





-------------

Deathsmiles (2007)

Deathsmiles is CAVE's first horizontal shooter since the days of Progear, and is a very worthy game in its own right although you'll have to get past the lolicon design.

You can select from up to four witches with different shot types, and you can shoot both left and right. Enemies will come from either side of the screen as you scroll along and they need to be killed with certain shot types in order to harvest the most point items from them.

I've only just started playing the game, so I don't understand it thoroughly yet. But basically you have a counter in the bottom left which goes up to 1000 as you kill enemies. Once that's maxed you can go into power-up mode which allows you to pass through enemies although bullets will still hit you. In this mode, you will be able to jack up your "plus value" which is a counter which appears in front of your character as you take out enemies. This value acts as a multiplier and boosts your score.

Deathsmiles is getting an XBOX360 port set for Spring 2009. This port is being done by CAVE, so it will probably be of higher quality than the Ketsui X and Dodonpachi Daioujou Black Label ports. http://www.cave.co.jp/gameonline/Xbo...les/index.html

Great replay here, where you can see the counter/plus value dynamic in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0OcebFafnA





----------

Deathsmiles Mega Black Label (October 2008)

This is an update to Deathsmiles coming out next month which features more bullets, an extra character (Sakyura) and a new stage. (Photo credit to Zap)



-------------

Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu (2008)

The final installment of the Dodonpachi series (at least according to its programmer, Tsuneki Ikeda), Daifukkatsu changes the dynamic quite a bit from Daioujou. This time you can pick from three crafts including the classic green helicopter (which was added in a board update) and from Power and Bomb mode. Both modes will rely very heavily on bullet cancelling which the player can do by chaining enemies and then going into hyper mode. However, in Power mode you will not start off with any bombs and will have to weave your way through the dense bullet fields with the benefit of boost mode, which gives you a fat laser and wider shot that helps you cancel bullet swarms. Bomb mode will start you off with several bombs and give you more when you die. Additionally, in version 1.5 up, bomb mode has auto-bomb, so if you are hit you will release a bomb instead of dying. While this sounds nice, it has been very controversial in arcades because you wind up waiting forever for even the most noobish player to die as he goes through the game.

For this reason, although Daifukkatsu has added a lot of interesting elements to it and features a hidden boss route in the first loop and a hidden version of the second loop, player reaction to the game has been a bit mixed since it takes so long to actually play the damn thing. Still, to the extent that I've played it, it is very well put together and as rewarding as any other CAVE game (in power mode, that is).

Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_AP3C3-UCE





-------------

And lastly, if you found any of the above interesting, know that we are getting four CAVE ports in the next six months: Ketsui DS, Ketsui X and Dodonpachi Daioujou Black Label for 360 and Deathsmiles for 360. If you don't have access to the games themselves you can at least pick up these ports and find out what people dig about them. Make sure you have a quality stick though!

Anyone playing CAVE shooters should have a look at the cave-stg.com forums, which is a good resource for information.
Last edited by adversesolutions; 04-08-2012 at 08:29 AM.
A Black Falcon
Member
(09-30-2008, 09:04 AM)
A Black Falcon's Avatar

Originally Posted by Victrix

Both - I dunno, I just found that the experience was better emulated. Though there were a lot of damn fine Saturn arcade ports, I didn't want to do another 'omg look shooter nostalgia' thread. There are good NEW and recent games being made, and they largely go ignored outside a very small subset of gamers (the subset currently jumping in the thread with glee, we'll see if we can get some fresh fish)

Not exactly likely, considering that a lot of the games you mentioned either require Japanese consoles or arcade cabinets and very expensive arcade PCBs to play.

In the West, only hardcore fans with money will ever play such games. Not that Cave cares at all, obviously.
HK-47
Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
(09-30-2008, 09:06 AM)
HK-47's Avatar
Go play Mars Matrix
adversesolutions
Member
(09-30-2008, 09:34 AM)
adversesolutions's Avatar

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Not exactly likely, considering that a lot of the games you mentioned either require Japanese consoles or arcade cabinets and very expensive arcade PCBs to play.

In the West, only hardcore fans with money will ever play such games. Not that Cave cares at all, obviously.

Just FYI there are at least four arcades that I know of in North America which have CAVE games running:

Southern California

Denjin Arcade
Arcade Infinity

Texas

Arcade UFO

and apparently an arcade in Toronto has some? But yeah you're right for the most part.
Moor-Angol
Banned
(09-30-2008, 09:47 AM)
Great thread indeed !

but please Progear no Arashi must be here
Tain
Member
(09-30-2008, 09:59 AM)
Tain's Avatar
Don't know how I missed this thread back in 07. Great posts, Victrix and adversesolutions.

It's worth mentioning that the single credit clear mindset touched on in this thread isn't just limited to shooters. I'd go as far to say that nearly every single worthwhile arcade game that isn't directly competitive isn't worth playing if you're not going to bother with trying for a single credit clear. Platformers, light gun games, you name it.
Last edited by Tain; 09-30-2008 at 10:04 AM.
Vorador
Banned
(09-30-2008, 10:20 AM)
Vorador's Avatar

Originally Posted by Chromax

Yes they're awesome, their games and Touhou's game = all the shootemup I need! :D

QFGJ

Altough i have to say ThunderForce VI is giving me the puppy eyes now :lol
Last edited by Vorador; 09-30-2008 at 10:28 AM.
Llyranor
Member
(09-30-2008, 03:29 PM)
Llyranor's Avatar
Dear Cave,

Get your 360 ports localized.

Thanks,
A shmup fan
sixteen-bit
Member
(09-30-2008, 03:38 PM)
adversesolutions, you should really clarify that Ketsui DS isn't an arcade port.
A Black Falcon
Member
(09-30-2008, 08:07 PM)
A Black Falcon's Avatar

Originally Posted by adversesolutions

Just FYI there are at least four arcades that I know of in North America which have CAVE games running:

Southern California

Denjin Arcade
Arcade Infinity

Texas

Arcade UFO

and apparently an arcade in Toronto has some? But yeah you're right for the most part.

I think that the fact that this thread got so few posts the first time helps prove my point... only a very tiny number of people in the West can play any of Cave's games from the past five or six years, and while that's quite unfortunate, neither Cave nor any of the companies that release minor import titles here seem to have any interest in changing that, sadly.

They should, but for whatever reason, they don't. :(

Originally Posted by _dementia

adversesolutions, you should really clarify that Ketsui DS isn't an arcade port.


Yeah. To be more specific, it's a $60 boss rush.

Worth it? Only to diehard Cave fans, I bet...
The End
Member
(09-30-2008, 08:16 PM)
The End's Avatar
Dear Cave,

Please be reasonable as to what you're willing to license your 360 ports for NA/EU release.

Or, possibly, you know, could you simply not region-protect them?

Thanks,

All 5 Shmup fans that are left outside of japan
Victrix
*beard*
(09-30-2008, 08:20 PM)
Victrix's Avatar

Originally Posted by The End

Or, possibly, you know, could you simply not region-protect them?

This

And you rock adverse, that's the way to do thread necromancy

For anyone not in the know, there's talk of 360 ports... and talk of region locking :(

It's a damn shame this stuff will probably never see the light of day as XBLA downloads.
Tain
Member
(09-30-2008, 09:51 PM)
Tain's Avatar
Deathsmiles absolutely should not be an XBLA download, but the older games? Yeah.

The region locking is annoying, but not unexpected. Pretty usual business-minded behavior to keep yourself open to a licensing deal rather than not.

Eh, it's about time to get a Japanese 360, I think. I just gotta find a way to sell off my US one.
adversesolutions
Member
(10-01-2008, 03:27 AM)
adversesolutions's Avatar

Originally Posted by Victrix

This

And you rock adverse, that's the way to do thread necromancy

For anyone not in the know, there's talk of 360 ports... and talk of region locking :(

It's a damn shame this stuff will probably never see the light of day as XBLA downloads.

Not to promote unreasonable hopes but when I talked to the port director for Ketsui X and DDP DOJ at the CAVE festival this summer, he said that they were considering making the games region-free. There is also a Deathsmiles development blog which stated that they don't plan to make the game region free, but could change that.

So, there may be a chance. The publishers would be crazy not to make the damn games region free, but really these people make quite a few bad business decisions so...
Quixzlizx
Member
(10-01-2008, 04:11 AM)
Quixzlizx's Avatar
I rail often about the possibility of region-locked 360 shmups. I'm hoping that the ps3 will eventually get some, not due to console war, but because I know I'll be able to import them. I wonder how much a Japanese 360 is :(
kazuo
Member
(10-01-2008, 09:03 AM)
kazuo's Avatar

Originally Posted by Quixzlizx

I rail often about the possibility of region-locked 360 shmups. I'm hoping that the ps3 will eventually get some, not due to console war, but because I know I'll be able to import them. I wonder how much a Japanese 360 is :(

Around $289 for an Arcade version from NCS, which is the only reliable domestic (USA) shop I've found that has them in stock.

I'm thinking about picking one up but holding out in the slim hope that maybe Death Smiles will be region-free... although I do want Rock Band Japan and I know that will be region-locked (stupid EA).

I'll probably buy one by the end of the week. Good thread, BTW. Needs more Pink Sweets (also probably worth mentioning they released a bugfixed pcb of sweets) and Progear!
A Black Falcon
Member
(10-01-2008, 07:18 PM)
A Black Falcon's Avatar

Originally Posted by The End

Dear Cave,

Please be reasonable as to what you're willing to license your 360 ports for NA/EU release.

Or, possibly, you know, could you simply not region-protect them?

Thanks,

All 5 Shmup fans that are left outside of japan

If only they'd do one of these things... :(
sixteen-bit
Member
(10-01-2008, 07:35 PM)

Originally Posted by kazuo

I'm thinking about picking one up but holding out in the slim hope that maybe Death Smiles will be region-free...

Cave confirmed territorial lockout on Deathsmiles.

http://www.siliconera.com/2008/09/23...o-bother-cave/
manzo
Member
(10-01-2008, 07:43 PM)
manzo's Avatar
Guys,

Can we please stop the region talk? We all know that none of these games will ever be region free, so can we put the region free talk to rest?

Let's just enjoy the fact (and praise the lawd) that we're actually getting home ports of these creations of god and sex.

Myself, I bit the bullet and bought a JP 360 for these games. You can buy 4 Xbox 360s and the games with the price of one Death Smiles board, so it's not an impossible task to import one Arcade model for these games.

You can find NTSC-J 360 consoles at Renchi, YesAsia, Play-Asia and NCSX.
Jason
Toronto Maple Laughs
Goon Squad 2010
(10-01-2008, 07:47 PM)
I'll probably bite the bullet on a JPN Arcade early next year. Is there a list of region free games anywhere?
Mr Jared
Member
(10-01-2008, 07:51 PM)
Mr Jared's Avatar
This thread is not complete without the ultimate Cave tribute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbts2qTrbAg
manzo
Member
(10-01-2008, 07:53 PM)
manzo's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jason

I'll probably bite the bullet on a JPN Arcade early next year. Is there a list of region free games anywhere?

Play-Asia has a good region free list, but it's not perfect.

Also, Wikia has a small list: http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/Region_Free_Xbox_360_Games
jon bones
Banned
(10-01-2008, 08:05 PM)
jon bones's Avatar
Fantastic OP! I like shooters a lot but I'm not buying another 360 just so I can play imports... hopefully one finds its way to XBLA.
adversesolutions
Member
(10-02-2008, 02:42 AM)
adversesolutions's Avatar
Posted this on shmups as well, but I'll post it here too. I think that if enough people email this guy, it's possible that they would go ahead and make the game region free.

If you want CAVE ports region-free, you should email this guy and let him know:

blog360@mail.cave.co.jp

His name is Mr. Asada, and he's the port director for Deathsmiles.

The Deathsmiles port has its own blog, and the latest post has the following Q&A:

http://cave-game.cocolog-nifty.com/b...post-c9c2.html

Q Will the game be region-free?

A: Right now we are only considering a Japanese (Asia) release.
...However, we haven't decided this for sure yet, and when we do we will let you know.

That to me indicates that they're considering it. I also bugged the port director for Ketsui X and DDP DOJ Black Label at the Cave Matsuri to make the games region free and he said they were considering it.

I have the feeling they might not be able to announce that the game is region free? There have been for instance a variety of 360 games that were region free but this was never advertised. I suppose MS has its clutches on initiatives that break with its region-coding.

But I think we should let CAVE know what we want. So email Mr. Asada in Japanese if you can, and in your native language if you can't to give him a sense of CAVE's overseas fanbase. I wouldn't be surprised if it had an effect.


Thread Tools