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Kintaro
Worships the porcelain goddess
(11-30-2007, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Peru

You don't. You can't. You won't. Not if you have any resemblance of integrity left in you.

Right, so you go on, do your own thing and keep on truckin' because you love it. But you come to an understanding that just because you have the freedom to say it, doesn't mean people will hire you or care for how you say it.

Anyways, straying off topic.
DenogginizerOS
BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
(11-30-2007, 06:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Richardfun

I'm reserving judgement as are you, but you must admit that there are quite a few 'coincidences' in this whole story. Of course, being completely unbiased isn't possible and I am inclined to choose Jeff's side until more info comes out. But perhaps that's just because I've developed a new, vile hatred for corporate America after following the whole WGA Hollywood strike :lol

In journalism, the moment you report coincidences as fact, you are lost. As a reader, the moment you accept reported coincidences as fact, you become a sheep. I don't doubt there are many layers to this story and we may never know the whole truth. But I doubt Eidos likes people thinking they were involved in Jeff's firing. And I doubt Gamespot likes people thinking they fired their EIC over a review. Something about all of this tells me there is a lot more to this story than the coincidences that have been reported.
Talka
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by taconinja

In effect, they deprived a man of his livelihood because he didn't cooperate.

Eidos didn't. Gamespot and CNET did.

Eidos pushing an advertising client to fire a reviewer is a pretty big accusation, and nobody has any proof of that yet.
jacobs34
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Talka

Eidos didn't. Gamespot and CNET did.

Eidos pushing an advertising client to fire a reviewer is a pretty big accusation, and nobody has any proof of that yet.

In time good chap, in time.
tino
Banned
(11-30-2007, 06:35 PM)
tino's Avatar
This thread is fucking long.

All I want to say is
1) I consider video game art, at least some of them are, so fuck you Rogert Ebert.

2) I hold video game journalism as high a standard as other fine art/music/movie reviews.

It's one thing a car magazine or a camera magazine run 10 page ad and then give the car/camera of the year to said advertiser, its entirely different thing a video game magazine suck dick of the major game publisher. And if you think video game mag are just product reviews, fuck you.

3) Maybe in another country, but I hold higher standard for the United States. I immigrated from another country when I was in high school. The States is now my country and I will do what I can (ban/unsubscribe/etc) to discourage said sleazy behavior.
Talka
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by jacobs34

In time good chap, in time.

Or maybe some genius at Eidos realized it doesn't make any sense to advertise shitty games on a website that reviews games. Especially since, as K&L showed them, bad games get bad scores which means bad coverage at these sites. So somebody put 1 and 1 together realized that the advertising money should be put elsewhere.

Who knows? The only people who we know to have done something objectionable so far is Gamespot and CNET. They have a responsibility to their readers and subscribers. Eidos doesn't have a responsibility to throw money at Gamespot.
No6
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:36 PM)

Originally Posted by i_am_not_jon_ames

I think my question here is why gaming sites like the one in question (and many others) are so much more beholden to gaming advertisers than film and tv sites as far as reviews go. Can't they just forgo any gaming advertisement and just support themselves with the other 400 billion products and brands that are looking to reach the M18-34 demo?

Because they get endless taunting by their target demo with they get McGriddled. It's a no-win situation for them.
gray_fox224
Junior Member
(11-30-2007, 06:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by tino

This thread is fucking long.

All I want to say is
1) I consider video game art, at least some of them are, so fuck you Rogert Ebert.

2) I hold video game journalism as high a standard as other fine art/music/movie reviews.

It's one thing a car magazine or a camera magazine run 10 page ad and then give the car/camera of the year to said advertiser, its entirely different thing a video game magazine suck dick of the major game publisher. And if you think video game mag are just product reviews, fuck you.

3) Maybe in another country, but I hold higher standard for the United States. I immigrated from another country when I was in high school. The States is now my country and I will do what I can (ban/unsubscribe/etc) to discourage said sleazy behavior.



Good man.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by PepsimanVsJoe

He was working there for over a decade. Usually incompetent employees don't last 10 years.

But sometimes people become cynical and jaded after ten years of work, and their work suffers because of it. Or sometimes someone gets promoted, and can't handle the new job.

I mean, I don't read Gamespot do I dunno how it has been running since he took over. But isn't it possible that he has been less-than-fantastic at his job?
Opus Angelorum
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Talka

They have a responsibility to their readers and subscribers.

If that is to be held true, then we should expect official statements from them very soon.

If no party is willing to comment, then that makes them all equally liable.
CrushDance
This sh!t needs to stop?
(11-30-2007, 06:40 PM)

Originally Posted by DenogginizerOS

Why isn't Gerstmann talking? What gamer would not lift him to the heavens if he revealed that he was fired for violating some payola policy? He could start his own website and he would have legions following him for doing this and he would become a trusted reviewer at a height no one has ever achieved.

On the other hand, if he was fired for other reasons, and people who work at Gamespot or Eidos lose jobs as a result of this rumor, and he does nothing to clear it up, then he is doing a huge disservice to the industry he covered for 11 years.

Come on Jeff. Speak up.

It would be a dangerous move because he might get slapped for leaking inside information about the on goings of the company. Not to mention he might have been offered a nice severance package etc.

he most likely will start his own site or join another down the road. Just not now.
gray_fox224
Junior Member
(11-30-2007, 06:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by CrushDance

It would be a dangerous move because he might get slapped for leaking inside information about the on goings of the company. Not to mention he might have been offered a nice severance package etc.

he most likely will start his own site or join another down the road. Just not now.


Yeah, it's all tied with severance pay and being a long-time employee.
Alex
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by MiamiWesker

And you are wrong.

Agreed, was probably about a point too high.
Danj
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by X26

Maybe the whole situation is like The Office (UK). Jeff is kinda out there in his way of doing his job, higher ups hate him for it, fire him unfairly and he sues (and wins).

Now Jeff needs to show up at the GS offices constantly unannounced and it would be perfect

Unfortunately, in the United States they do not enjoy the kind of employee protection laws that we have over here in the UK. So I seriously doubt he has any legal recourse, they can probably fire him for any reason they like without giving any notice whatsoever.
squicken
our defensive line is somewhat competent!
(11-30-2007, 06:44 PM)
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What so insidious about all this is how far does it go? I know I used C*ET when researching my HDTV purchases. And I've referred lots of people to the site as well. So are all those TV reviews I read bought and paid for?
Richardfun
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:47 PM)

Originally Posted by DenogginizerOS

In journalism, the moment you report coincidences as fact, you are lost. As a reader, the moment you accept reported coincidences as fact, you become a sheep. I don't doubt there are many layers to this story and we may never know the whole truth. But I doubt Eidos likes people thinking they were involved in Jeff's firing. And I doubt Gamespot likes people thinking they fired their EIC over a review. Something about all of this tells me there is a lot more to this story than the coincidences that have been reported.

I agree that it seems very strange for Eidos to make a move like this, because people running that company can't be complete morons, even though they release crappy games. That is why I am not unequivocally saying they are evil incarnate together with CNet, and Jeff is a poor martyr, deserving our unmitigated compassion and concern. I am just saying, that where there is smoke, there is usually fire. And yeah, perhaps we won't get the whole story ever, no matter how long we wait, but if you have alot of coincidences joined together, the statistical likelihood of them all being mere coincidences becomes smaller and smaller.
FlyinJ
Douchebag. Yes, me.
(11-30-2007, 06:47 PM)

Originally Posted by squicken

What so insidious about all this is how far does it go? I know I used C*ET when researching my HDTV purchases. And I've referred lots of people to the site as well. So are all those TV reviews I read bought and paid for?

It does raise the question, doesn't it?
castle007
Banned
(11-30-2007, 06:48 PM)
so **** and ***** is banned now? :D
nightowl
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:48 PM)
A good read from former Gamespot employee Rich Gallop (on his gamespot blog) on the situation:

http://www.bannedsiteyoucanguess.com/users/Richie-G/

Jeff Gamespot indeed.
Justin Bailey
------ ------
(11-30-2007, 06:49 PM)

Originally Posted by squicken

What so insidious about all this is how far does it go? I know I used C*ET when researching my HDTV purchases. And I've referred lots of people to the site as well. So are all those TV reviews I read bought and paid for?

That's the thing. There's no way that I can ever take a review on a CNET site seriously anymore. There's always going to be that question in the back of my mind.

And honestly I bet the answer is "yes" a lot more than we think.
bodyofanamerican
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by No6

Because they get endless taunting by their target demo with they get McGriddled. It's a no-win situation for them.

Yup, and it makes my brain cry.

Editor crushes Eidos game in video review, kowtow to Eidos, fire said editor, get killed by your audience.

Accept an "Axe Body Spray" or WWE PPV skin for your home page, make the same amount of money, don't fire anyone, still get killed by fanboys for McGriddling.

I'd always take the second choice, and I don't see why CNet didn't and most other sites don't follow suit.
PepsimanVsJoe
(11-30-2007, 06:50 PM)
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Oh and if this was just a matter of incompetence the timing doesn't really make any sense. Low review of a heavily advertised game + video review pulled + advertising pulled from site + reviewer/EIC getting fired = ????
Granted there are no facts to back this up in either direction but the timing is ill at best. People have every right to be suspicious given this current situation.

Originally Posted by Kbsmoker

fixed

Completely forgot that one. My mistake.
Last edited by PepsimanVsJoe; 11-30-2007 at 06:56 PM.
USC-fan
Banned
(11-30-2007, 06:54 PM)

Originally Posted by PepsimanVsJoe

Oh and if this was just a matter of incompetence the timing doesn't really make any sense. Low review of a heavily advertised game + advertising pulled from site + video review pulled + reviewer/EIC getting fired = ????
Granted there are no facts to back this up in either direction but the timing is ill at best. People have every right to be suspicious given this current situation.

fixed
nightowl
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:56 PM)
This was posted on 1up forums by Sam Kennedy. I thought this was very informative on the situation:

Jeff's been overseeing GameSpot's reviews for over a decade, and publisher complaints (of which there have been many -- I would know, I worked there years ago) never affected policy.

October 27th, the guy who launched such fine publications as Stuff and Maxim takes over GameSpot.

You figure it out.

(this link was also provided in the post : http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071025/20071025006333.html)

MiamiWesker
(11-30-2007, 06:56 PM)
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1up Sam Kennedy:

http://boards.1up.com/zd/board/messa...sage.id=488045

Jeff's been overseeing GameSpot's reviews for over a decade, and publisher complaints (of which there have been many -- I would know, I worked there years ago) never affected policy.

October 27th, the guy who launched such fine publications as Stuff and Maxim takes over GameSpot.

You figure it out.


EDIT: Beaten.
stuminus3
Never buying another games console. Ever.
(11-30-2007, 06:57 PM)
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Facts are irrelevant. If Cnet and Eidos would like to sell their product, it is their responsibility to make sure the consumer trusts them. As a consumer, I should not have to deal with the element of doubt. It doesn't matter what the truth is. You live and die by perception.
Graphics Horse
graphics horse
graphics horse
does whatever a
graphics horse does
(11-30-2007, 06:58 PM)
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Whether or not Eidos asked for him to be fired, it was still 100% C*NTS decision. I could ask for any random media editor to be fired tomorrow on the threat of withdrawing my readership, but it wouldn't mean I was to blame if they actually went ahead and did it.
taconinja
Member
(11-30-2007, 06:59 PM)
If there is a non-disclosure agreement, it binds both parties. For those expecting an official statement from Gamespot it would break the NDA and Gerstmann could freely tell his side without repercussions. Of course for Eidos, speaking would be PR suicide since no one is likely to believe them anyways.
Whoompthereitis
Stop the criticism of
child rapists
THEOCRACY NOW
(11-30-2007, 06:59 PM)

A good read from former Gamespot employee Rich Gallop (on his gamespot blog) on the situation:

http://www.bannedsiteyoucanguess.com/users/Richie-G/

Jeff Gamespot indeed.

This link doesn't work. Would you be willing to summarize what Gallop said in his blog?

EDIT: I'm such an idiot. Just read the URL! :D
PepsimanVsJoe
(11-30-2007, 07:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by taconinja

If there is a non-disclosure agreement, it binds both parties. For those expecting an official statement from Gamespot it would break the NDA and Gerstmann could freely tell his side without repercussions. Of course for Eidos, speaking would be PR suicide since no one is likely to believe them anyways.

At this rate it looks like we'll never know. Though is it possible for a third-party to blow the whistle?(provided they have sufficient facts to back this up)
probune
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Whoompthereitis

This link doesn't work. Would you be willing to summarize what Gallop said in his blog?

Of course the site doesn't work... it says "banned site you can guess" in the address.
nightowl
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:01 PM)

Originally Posted by Whoompthereitis

This link doesn't work. Would you be willing to summarize what Gallop said in his blog?

I'm honestly not sure I'd do it justice, plus he has some pics as well.

http://www.gamespotX.com/users/Richie-G/ and remove the X

Hope that helps.
Christine
(11-30-2007, 07:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Whoompthereitis

This link doesn't work. Would you be willing to summarize what Gallop said in his blog?

Replace "bannedsiteyoucanguess" with the obvious answer to fix the link.
Pewp
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Whoompthereitis

This link doesn't work. Would you be willing to summarize what Gallop said in his blog?

Jeff GameSpot Once upon a time, I heard Jeff Gerstmann introduce himself as "Jeff GameSpot." A simple slip of the tongue that occurred off-camera, yet will forever be preserved in my mind as a symbol of the man's love and dedication to this web site, his co-workers, and the trusting audience we shared.


We will probably never learn all of the facts that led to the "why" of his departure, but the timing of the "how" is egregious enough to warrant such an amazing uproar. Right after the big review push is over, just before the warm and fuzzy holiday break, and with no chance for a friendly send-off episode or two. It all feels mean, and sad.


Part of me wishes I was still there, but I'm positive there are plenty of my friends saying the things I would like to be saying in those inevitable managerial explanation sessions. Jeff will be fine, yet I sympathize greatly with those left with the difficult choice of "kicking" (following one's moral compass out the door) or "sticking" (paying that San Francisco rent in a tough economy).


That said, I can speak from personal experience that there is no better time for a gaming fan to be unemployed, and if anybody wants to join me for some therapeutic Call of Duty, I'll see you online.

-Rich
Goreomedy
Console Market Analyst
(11-30-2007, 07:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Whoompthereitis

This link doesn't work. Would you be willing to summarize what Gallop said in his blog?

Originally Posted by Rich

Once upon a time, I heard Jeff Gerstmann introduce himself as "Jeff GameSpot." A simple slip of the tongue that occurred off-camera, yet will forever be preserved in my mind as a symbol of the man's love and dedication to this web site, his co-workers, and the trusting audience we shared.

We will probably never learn all of the facts that led to the "why" of his departure, but the timing of the "how" is egregious enough to warrant such an amazing uproar. Right after the big review push is over, just before the warm and fuzzy holiday break, and with no chance for a friendly send-off episode or two. It all feels mean, and sad.

Part of me wishes I was still there, but I'm positive there are plenty of my friends saying the things I would like to be saying in those inevitable managerial explanation sessions. Jeff will be fine, yet I sympathize greatly with those left with the difficult choice of "kicking" (following one's moral compass out the door) or "sticking" (paying that San Francisco rent in a tough economy).

That said, I can speak from personal experience that there is no better time for a gaming fan to be unemployed, and if anybody wants to join me for some therapeutic Call of Duty, I'll see you online.

-Rich

Here.
TekunoRobby
Junior Tag of Excellence
(11-30-2007, 07:03 PM)
I hope other unnamed media outlets have progressed far enough in their talks with Jeff.
SpotAnime
Junior Member
(11-30-2007, 07:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Danj

Unfortunately, in the United States they do not enjoy the kind of employee protection laws that we have over here in the UK. So I seriously doubt he has any legal recourse, they can probably fire him for any reason they like without giving any notice whatsoever.

You can't fire someone here in the US without reason. If job performance is the issue, an employer must build a case to terminate an employee. If indeed Jeff was let go because of this, CNET had to been able to prove declining performance and an inability to demonstrate improved performance (usually handled by forcing an employee to achieve certain milestones or metrics during a probationary period as defined by management). Basically, he had to have a history, however recent, of problems with management for them to have fired him. Probably those previous discussions regarding his "tone" built a case over time his reviews did not meet the editorial standards of the organization. The **** & ***** review was probably the last bit management needed to fire him without fear of legal repercussions. And the reason you haven't heard his story is probably due to some severance agreement he received, which means CNET's case against him wasn't 100% bulletproof.

People question the time between the **** & ***** review was posted and his firing, but it takes time to build and prove a case for termination, and negotiations for a severance (read: settlement to protect CNET from future legal action against them).
StopMakingSense
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by SpotAnime

You can't fire someone here in the US without reason.

If you live in an at-will to work state, like California, you sure as hell can.

They can fire you for any reason, and you can leave for any reason.
Last edited by StopMakingSense; 11-30-2007 at 07:08 PM.
cilonen
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Graphics Horse

Whether or not Eidos asked for him to be fired, it was still 100% C*NTS decision. I could ask for any random media editor to be fired tomorrow on the threat of withdrawing my readership, but it wouldn't mean I was to blame if they actually went ahead and did it.

I can't add anything that hasn;t already been said, but I did want to say that that's the best and most appropriate bastardisation of that site/media conglomerate's name I've seen so far!

If i ever need to refer to C*NT I'll be using it. The C*NTS.
CrushDance
This sh!t needs to stop?
(11-30-2007, 07:08 PM)

crispy4001 wrote:
Update:

This is what I came here to say.

I worked on the K&L ads personally, and I had a front-row seat to the whole debacle.

The ads were originally supposed to point to the GS review page, as they sometimes do. When the review came out, Eidos was understandably upset, and yes -- they did threaten to pull the whole campaign -- but they eventually simmered down and kept the campaign. They had us change the clickthrough URL from the GS review to the official site, but other than that little changed.

The ads went up and the Eidos brouhaha was settled over two weeks ago. Jeff got fired yesterday. Furthermore, I'd heard a few people tell that he'd already been skating on thin ice for "unprofessional reviews and review practices." I don't know much about that, though, so I can't say one way or the other.

My gut tells me that he got canned for larger reasons. Maybe the Eidos debacle was part of it -- I don't know. But I sincerely doubt that Eidos made Gamespot fire him. CNET doesn't kowtow to its advertisers, and I've more than once seen the higher-ups turn away big advertising dollars for the sake of the company's integrity.

I think the whole thing is likely a combination of factors, the biggest being poor timing. Gerst gets canned just two weeks after the K&L incident, so people blame it on that (especially when backed by PA, the gaming journalism equivalent to The Daily Show).

It'll be interesting to see how everything pans out, but I'm definitely gonna keep an open mind about it for now.

http://www.forumopolis.com/showpost....0&postcount=52

.
StopMakingSense
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by CrushDance

.

Its a good thing marketing management keeps their designers so well informed about things that aren't any of their business.
cilonen
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by StopMakingSense

Its a good thing marketing management keeps their designers so well informed about things that aren't any of their business.

When senior managers get canned where I work, the bosses always make sure the guys writing the copy ads know first, and if at all possible, ahead of time. :lol
PepsimanVsJoe
(11-30-2007, 07:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by StopMakingSense

Its a good thing marketing management keeps their designers so well informed about things that aren't any of their business.

Yeah that definitely doesn't look right. I'd like to hear more about these "unprofessional reviews and review practices" though.
Opus Angelorum
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by cilonen

When senior managers get canned where I work, the bosses always make sure the guys writing the copy ads know first, and if at all possible, ahead of time.

:lol
Justin Bailey
------ ------
(11-30-2007, 07:15 PM)

Originally Posted by StopMakingSense

Its a good thing marketing management keeps their designers so well informed about things that aren't any of their business.

And even if "it was just a part of it," it was still a fucking part of it. Objectively reviewing a game without considering the corporate sponsors should never be a part of getting fired. Period.
LordAndrew
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:16 PM)

Originally Posted by Talka

Eidos didn't. Gamespot and CNET did.

Eidos pushing an advertising client to fire a reviewer is a pretty big accusation, and nobody has any proof of that yet.

Claiming that GameSpot fired Jeff is a pretty big accusation too, considering that he possesses the highest position within GameSpot. He would have to fire himself. I blame CNET, but not GameSpot.
StopMakingSense
Member
(11-30-2007, 07:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Justin Bailey

And even if "it was just a part of it," it was still a fucking part of it. Objectively reviewing a game without considering the corporate sponsors should never be a part of getting fired. Period.

I'm referring to the 'I worked on the ads' guy.
SpotAnime
Junior Member
(11-30-2007, 07:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by StopMakingSense

If you live in an at-will to work state, like California, you sure as hell can.

They can fire you for any reason, and you can leave for any reason.

But CA also recognizes Public Policy, Implied-Contract and Covenant of Good Faith and Fair Dealing exceptions, so it's even more difficult to fire without reason in the state of California.

In the state I work, we don't recognize these exceptions and it's still a bitch to get someone fired.
minus_273
Banned
(11-30-2007, 07:17 PM)

Originally Posted by Danj

Unfortunately, in the United States they do not enjoy the kind of employee protection laws that we have over here in the UK. So I seriously doubt he has any legal recourse, they can probably fire him for any reason they like without giving any notice whatsoever.


yup its called at will employment. you can leave or be asked to leave at any time.

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