[Axalon]

this all looks so confusing to me. I should try learning an easy language like english.

Joke post?

English is one of the most complex, hacked together, confusing ass languages in existence. The language wouldn't have ballooned to it's current usage if the British Empire hadn't grown to be so HUEG.

[Imm0rt4l]

tagged

[ukiraros]

Thank you very much for making this thread.

I will start looking at this on Monday.

[suffah]

I thought this thread was going to be your typical learn Japanese thread, I'm very grateful it's not.

HEISIG IS KEY.

Those of you that want a more textbook style approach should check out Kanji in Context. I think it's the perfect compliment after you finish Remembering the Kanji I.

Also, grab some raw manga and read read read.

Tae Kim is great, but after you are ready for a more immersive environment, I really recommend this. I'm going through it now and it's pretty awesome.

[tnw]

This is probably only relevant to intermediate level people who want to prepare for 1 kyuu JLPT but some books I recommend are:

Kanji & Kana (ISBN 0-8048-2077-5) A Book of all the Joyo Kanji that will be on the 1 kyuu test. Has on/kun yomi for all characters, multiple definitions, and sample scentences for every entry, as well as stroke order. I used this book to just memorize every joyo kanji when I started studying 2 kyuu way back when.

The Japanese Language Proficiency Test 1st Grade (ISBN 4-87138-197-8) A great grammar book (I actually really found the ones posted in the OP to not be helpful) This book is all in Japanese

Japanese Language Proficiency Test:Test Content Specifications (ISBN 4-89358-281-x)

Pretty much goes over everything that is on the every single level of the JLPT tests, including a huge vocabularly list. This book is all in Japanese.

[RevenantKioku]

It's nice that you can write them and understand their meaning in English, but I don't see how that really helps your Japanese. It's absolutely criminal, in my opinion, that that book doesn't teach the Japanese readings. If you just want to know what individual Kanji mean and how to write them, then it may be okay, but that looks like it is a terrible book for learning Japanese. Like you said, you can write a bunch of them and understand their individual meanings, but you can't read a lot of them. What I did when I first learned Kanji was pick up a bunch of Kanji "drill" books that actual Japanese school children use. Of course there is no English in them, so you might need to use a dictionary with the book, but they tell you the stroke order, readings, meanings, examples, usage, etc...

Reread what I said. It's not criminal because you'll want to learn how to write the kanji anyway. You do realize that I can write 2042 kanji, right? I know 2042 kanji writings. That is no small task and that is no small feat.
THE BOOK DOES NOT TEACH YOU JAPANESE!
But that is okay. The book does exactly what it advertises on front. Teaches you "How to Remember the Kanji." Now I remember 2042 kanji. And the readings are being picked up real quick. If you can spend two minutes writing out a kanji and can remember it 6 months later more power to you. I can spend 2 minutes with Heisig's method, write it once and I've been at 90% remembering how to write them now 6 months later. I'm actually able to write more than that now because when I encounter new kanji, I use the same methodology and the kanji stick in my head very clearly now.
I have to stress how much that learning readings now is a breeze.
I have to ask, sine you did it the kids way, do you remember every single reading, every single meaning, every simple example of usage in that book you did?

What did you basically do? You learned to write and read at the same time. So you learned both. Heisig's idea is divide and conquer.

Learn to write then learn to read. No one is saying once you finish book 1 you'll be able to read Japanese. But you can systematically get down how to remember the kanji. That's something indeed.
If you were able to get kanji down by writing them over and over and just drilling them into your head, that's great. I'm glad you had the time to do it. I didn't, and in 3 months, 2000 kanji. And now, I stress again, the readings are just easily getting into my head because I don't have to worry about "how do I write that?"

[Economan]

Joke post? English is one of the most complex, hacked together, confusing ass languages in existence. The language wouldn't have ballooned to it's current usage if the British Empire hadn't grown to be so HUEG.

I always hear people say this. But why? What makes English so complicated to know?

[tnw]

you know 2000 plus readings, but you don't know the reading for 'teinei'? >_>

anyway, I would say writing is probably the least important skill to learn. It's important to know basic stroke order and learn character radicals and whatever, but I never handwrite anything, that's what my computer and cell phone are for. Writing isn't even tested on the JLPT.

I do strongly recommend getting one of those renshuu cho that the elementary school kids use for writing practice though, but it's probably the last proprity.

[RevenantKioku]

you know 2000 plus readings, but you don't know the reading for 'teinei'? >_> anyway, I would say writing is probably the least important skill to learn. It's important to know basic stroke order and learn character radicals and whatever, but I never handwrite anything, that's what my computer and cell phone are for. Writing isn't even tested on the JLPT. I do strongly recommend getting one of those renshuu cho that the elementary school kids use for writing practice though, but it's probably the last proprity.

I know 2000 plus writings. I know from other context that 丁 has a "ちょう” reading, but I forgot in this case that it's てい.

You may not use writing much, but it never hurts and it's really easy to get down with this method.
The point is, I don't care if you got kanji down by spending hundreds of hours memorizing things. I spent three months doing this methodology, have 2000 kanji in my head that I know how to write very well and readings are starting to stick.
I'm not expecting the veterans to like or endorse this method. But if you're starting out, I honestly recommend you read that PDF I linked and give Heisig an honest chance. My Japanese is all the better for it and I wish I knew about it years ago.

[Blackace]

The Japanese Language Proficiency Test 1st Grade (ISBN 4-87138-197-8) A great grammar book (I actually really found the ones posted in the OP to not be helpful) This book is all in Japanese

Can I asked when you used the other grammar books? Because until I found them I have a hell of a time understanding the difference between some of the finer grammar points. Even for stuff I have known for a few years. My level is not quite as refined as yours, so I just wondered when you tried to use them. I think people doing 3 kyu and 2 kyu can get a lot out of those books.

[RevenantKioku]

Let me put Heisig's method this way. It's kinda hard to relate to languages that use the roman alphabet since there are only 26 characters, but stay with me.

Let's say you don't know how to pronounce the word or the meaning of the word "faux." But as you've studied English, you already got down the 26 letters. You only have to spend time learning how to say the word and what it means. You don't have to spend time going "Oh shit, what is that fourth letter, I've never seen that before! Now I've got to drill writing it 100 times!!" Now imagine doing that for 2000 kanji.

Granted, there are more than the Jouyou kanji, but getting them down doesn't hurt, and the method is extendable to Kanji outside of the book.

[tnw]

I think I bought those books in 2003 or so? I bought the Kana and Kanji book in like 2001 or 2002 I think.

Oh sorry you mean those books in the OP. Yeah, I remember using them to study for 2 kyuu. I was studying with a group of about 6 other people who were also preparing for 2 kyuu at the time. It was kind of hit or miss I guess.

But you're probably right, they would be a good place to start.

Man I was just looking though those books of kanji and grammar. I've forgotten quite a few things :lol

[Oichi]

you know 2000 plus readings, but you don't know the reading for 'teinei'? >_>

Not to be a dick, but stop coming off as a dick.

RK: Good job on this thread, it'll probably help a lot of people who are studying right now. I'd say for advanced learners, I'd recommend this book for grammar purposes. I tend to stay away from online resources not because I dislike them, but I have a tendency to look up words online (even if it's just for confirmation) than if I'm reading a book. :lol Reading from a book at least forces me to try to read the word instead of just going to Jim Breen and looking it up.

[J. M. Romeo]

Realistically, how many actual work hours (or months, assuming an average of 5 hours a week of study) can one take to achieve a decent (being 'decent" able to understand a regular magazine or a tv show, or having a normal conversation) level in Japanese? I would like to learn it and plan it out starting this year when I finish college and probably keep studying it for a year or two by myself.

[Zefah]

Reread what I said. It's not criminal because you'll want to learn how to write the kanji anyway. You do realize that I can write 2042 kanji, right? I know 2042 kanji writings. That is no small task and that is no small feat. THE BOOK DOES NOT TEACH YOU JAPANESE! But that is okay. The book does exactly what it advertises on front. Teaches you "How to Remember the Kanji." Now I remember 2042 kanji. And the readings are being picked up real quick. If you can spend two minutes writing out a kanji and can remember it 6 months later more power to you. I can spend 2 minutes with Heisig's method, write it once and I've been at 90% remembering how to write them now 6 months later. I'm actually able to write more than that now because when I encounter new kanji, I use the same methodology and the kanji stick in my head very clearly now. I have to stress how much that learning readings now is a breeze. I have to ask, sine you did it the kids way, do you remember every single reading, every single meaning, every simple example of usage in that book you did? What did you basically do? You learned to write and read at the same time. So you learned both. Heisig's idea is divide and conquer. Learn to write then learn to read. No one is saying once you finish book 1 you'll be able to read Japanese. But you can systematically get down how to remember the kanji. That's something indeed. If you were able to get kanji down by writing them over and over and just drilling them into your head, that's great. I'm glad you had the time to do it. I didn't, and in 3 months, 2000 kanji. And now, I stress again, the readings are just easily getting into my head because I don't have to worry about "how do I write that?"

If it works for you, that's fine, but I still disagree that it is an effective method. To echo TNW's post, hand-writing is not very important in this day and age. It's infinitely more important to be able to know how to read the Kanji. If you know how to read it then you will also be able to write it via a computer / cellphone or other electronic device, which is where you will be doing the majority of your Japanese writing. If you only know how to write the Kanji then you will be limited to hand-writing only.

I used the Kanji drill books and learned the writing, reading and meaning of each 1945 characters that are part of the standard kanji set in a couple of months. To reinforce this learning I did a lot of reading. I now know how to read easily over 3000 Kanji. Sure nowadays I often forget exactly how to write some Kanji and I have to consult an electronic dictionary, a cellphone, a computer, or any other electronic device when I want to hand-write the character, but I wouldn't even be able to do this if I didn't know how to read it.

I just don't see how learning how to write a Kanji and learning its meaning (in English) will help you improve your Japanese ability. If it works for you then that is fine, but I remain skeptical.

[Zefah]

Realistically, how many actual work hours (or months, assuming an average of 5 hours a week of study) can one take to achieve a decent (being 'decent" able to understand a regular magazine or a tv show, or having a normal conversation) level in Japanese? I would like to learn it and plan it out starting this year when I finish college and probably keep studying it for a year or two by myself.

With 5 hours of study a week and no actual use of the language you will probably never get good at it no matter how long you try. The most important part of learning a language is immersion. Studying words and grammar can only get you so far without context. You need to watch Japanese TV and movies, listen to Japanese music, talk to actual Japanese people in Japanese, read books and magazines in Japanese, etc... if you want to get good at the language. Having a set 5 hours of "study" a week will probably get you nowhere without any actual practical application.

[J. M. Romeo]

With 5 hours of study a week and no actual use of the language you will probably never get good at it no matter how long you try. The most important part of learning a language is immersion. Studying words and grammar can only get you so far without context. You need to watch Japanese TV and movies, listen to Japanese music, talk to actual Japanese people in Japanese, read books and magazines in Japanese, etc... if you want to get good at the language. Having a set 5 hours of "study" a week will probably get you nowhere without any actual practical application.

Well, I was assuming that japanese TV, movies, podcasts and music were a given. And searching "penpals" or actual people to practice the language too. But I thought that those things shouldn't be attempted until you get some of the grammar basics and all.
No estimation then on how long can it take with decent resources? (such as the ones mentioned by you)

[tnw]

Just trying to tone RK down a bit, not trying to be a dick.

It is important to learn stroke order and radicals and things like that. I said that. So in a way, what he's suggesting might be a good thing to do in the beginning. It's not very important to know how to write in the end though. That's all I'm trying to say.

I did have a job interview recently where they made me fill out all of these forms in a bare room with only pencil and paper. It was total hell. Luckily I had printed out my personal statement (shiboudoukisho) before hand, and just copied it onto the sheet. But those circumstances are rare (it's the ONLY job interview where they've made me do something like that)

3000, kanji, eh? I've really let my language ability plateau/gently decline :lol

While living in the country of the language you're studying is helpful, it's probably not possible for you right now. Just try and do as much as you can to get the language down. That's all you can really ask of yourself.

[RevenantKioku]

I just don't see how learning how to write a Kanji and learning its meaning (in English) will help you improve your Japanese ability. If it works for you then that is fine, but I remain skeptical.

Part one of a two step process, my friend. I'm doing nothing entirely different from you, but just in a different order. I didn't stop after doing Heisig's book and say "Okay that's it, done learning!" Now, instead of doing 2000 kanji of "let's learn how to write and read at the same time!" I did 2000 "let's learn how to write" and now I'm doing "let's learn how to read!"

Back in kindergarten when you were taught the alphabet, and were drilling them, did you get taught every single possible sound that a letter could have? No, because you learned that through context. But you still went over and learned how to recognize every single letter.

I know this method derivates from what the Japanese children do, but we're not Japanese children!

And if handwriting were so "unimportant" why are the kids I'm teaching spending all this time learning how to write characters? :D I'm not saying that the old fashioned method doesn't work, it obviously does. If you have the time that Japanese school children do, more power to you. I'm just putting this out there as a great method that works, skeptics be damned.

[Blackace]

If it works for you, that's fine, but I still disagree that it is an effective method. To echo TNW's post, hand-writing is not very important in this day and age.

Actually, I would have to disagree that it isn't important to learning. While I don't agree fully with the method that RK is pimping (it is working for him and his results are much better than a lot of people's I have seen) writing is VERY important to remember kanji. I can't stress that enough, because once you get past the beginner phase and start getting into complex kanji, knowing the radicals and how to write them is important for researching and just asking someone how to write or read something.

[Askia47]

Great thread, But I think All beginners should begin with Genki. Learning The Kanji is very important, but they should also learn basic grammar and vocab along with the kanji.

[Blackace]

Great thread, But I think All beginners should begin with Genki. Learning The Kanji is very important, but they should also learn basic grammar and vocab along with the kanji.

Japan Times makes some good books. If you have no agenda (like taking the Japanese test) then this is a good as place to start as any

[BudokaiMR2]

Yeah I have heard good things about the Hesig books, but I think RK is oversimplifying things a bit.

I have talked to just as many people who said it did jack shit for them. I have pretty much given up on writing kanji. It's pretty almost useless today and if you don't keep at it with constant practice(which doesn't happen in everyday life in Japan) then you will just forget things slowly. I already know pretty much all of the important radicals and such so I'm not worried about that. I just suck at handwriting.

My reading is getting better and better by just exposing myself to material in Japanese. It's still tough and I am thinking about getting a newspaper subscription and going through a bit every day with my dictionary.

It's disappointing that I can barely pull meanings from articles after 4 years of study, but then I just remind myself that almost none of my ESL students in college could read something like the NY times.

[Zefah]

Actually, I would have to disagree that it isn't important to learning. While I don't agree fully with the method that RK is pimping (it is working for him and his results are much better than a lot of people's I have seen) writing is VERY important to remember kanji. I can't stress that enough, because once you get past the beginner phase and start getting into complex kanji, knowing the radicals and how to write them is important for researching and just asking someone how to write or read something.

I definitely think writing is important. If you don't write the Kanji you will probably not learn how to recognize the radicals. Without learning how many strokes a certain Kanji and its radical have then it will be extremely difficult to look up a Kanji you don't recognize in a dictionary. I didn't mean to downplay the importance of learning how to write Kanji, but it because actual hand-writing is used so little these days, it is much more important to know how to read Kanji so you can actually write them with a word processor.

I can write Kanji just fine, but just like most Japanese people who learned Kanji through school, sometimes it can be hard to remember how to write a certain Kanji even though you would instantly recognize it if you saw it.

[Zefah]

Part one of a two step process, my friend. I'm doing nothing entirely different from you, but just in a different order. I didn't stop after doing Heisig's book and say "Okay that's it, done learning!" Now, instead of doing 2000 kanji of "let's learn how to write and read at the same time!" I did 2000 "let's learn how to write" and now I'm doing "let's learn how to read!" Back in kindergarten when you were taught the alphabet, and were drilling them, did you get taught every single possible sound that a letter could have? No, because you learned that through context. But you still went over and learned how to recognize every single letter. I know this method derivates from what the Japanese children do, but we're not Japanese children! And if handwriting were so "unimportant" why are the kids I'm teaching spending all this time learning how to write characters? :D I'm not saying that the old fashioned method doesn't work, it obviously does. If you have the time that Japanese school children do, more power to you. I'm just putting this out there as a great method that works, skeptics be damned.

Of course we aren't Japanese children, but it is my opinion that if you really want to learn how to write and speak natural Japanese then you should do your best to learn the language as close as possible to how children learn it (at an accelerated pace of course).

[Blackace]

Yeah I have heard good things about the Hesig books, but I think RK is oversimplifying things a bit. I have talked to just as many people who said it did jack shit for them. I have pretty much given up on writing kanji. It's pretty almost useless today and if you don't keep at it with constant practice(which doesn't happen in everyday life in Japan) then you will just forget things slowly. My reading is getting better and better by just exposing myself to material in Japanese. It's still tough and I am thinking about getting a newspaper subscription and going through a bit every day with my dictionary. It's disappointing that I can barely pull meanings from articles after 4 years of study, but then I just remind myself that almost none of my ESL students in college could read something like the NY times.

actually, most of my ESL college students could read the NY times, if they wanted to that is. But don't feel bad, most high school students who are born here and have been living and breathing Japanese can't read a newspaper. Being able to read a newspaper is like the benchmark for being close to fluent.

[BudokaiMR2]

I can write Kanji just fine, but just like most Japanese people who learned Kanji through school, sometimes it can be hard to remember how to write a certain Kanji even though you would instantly recognize it if you saw it.

Yeah I get really annoyed at that because it pretty much happens every time. It all just gets jumbled up in my head when I try to remember. But if I have one glance I can write it perfectly fine.

[RevenantKioku]

Of course we aren't Japanese children, but it is my opinion that if you really want to learn how to write and speak natural Japanese then you should do your best to learn the language as close as possible to how children learn it (at an accelerated pace of course).

And this is very accelerated. :D
It's really nothing different from what you're saying. It's divide and conquer. Write, then read. I don't know why people act like it is a waste of time.
Quick question for you. Why is it so easy for people with Chinese-language knowledge to get into Japanese?

Yeah I get really annoyed at that because it pretty much happens every time. It all just gets jumbled up in my head when I try to remember. But if I have one glance I can write it perfectly fine.

This is another benefit of Heisig method. It gets rid of that jumbling. A lot of it is gone for me.

[BudokaiMR2]

actually, most of my ESL college students could read the NY times, if they wanted to that is. But don't feel bad, most high school students who are born here and have been living and breathing Japanese can't read a newspaper. Being able to read a newspaper is like the benchmark for being close to fluent.

Ah well I was usually teaching the lower two levels instead of the higher ones. Mainly just because I had been there for a while and the lower levels are the hardest to teach. But even then I would have students with 5-6 years of study.

[Blackace]

I definitely think writing is important. If you don't write the Kanji you will probably not learn how to recognize the radicals. Without learning how many strokes a certain Kanji and its radical have then it will be extremely difficult to look up a Kanji you don't recognize in a dictionary. I didn't mean to downplay the importance of learning how to write Kanji, but it because actual hand-writing is used so little these days, it is much more important to know how to read Kanji so you can actually write them with a word processor. I can write Kanji just fine, but just like most Japanese people who learned Kanji through school, sometimes it can be hard to remember how to write a certain Kanji even though you would instantly recognize it if you saw it.

Yeah I understand that. But that is the problem, to learn kanji properly there is no way around writing. I use Japanese kids textbooks, from 1st grade up. Tells you how to write and read them and you learn them in the order that the kids would learn them. Of course there are a lot I knew from college and just learning on my own but this did wonders for my reading and writing as well as my general understanding of what radicals mean and how they affect a way a kanji is pronouced

[May16]

I kept the text books from my Japanese classes in college for later review, and am thankful I did. The romanization in them is goofy, but eh, it works, and these are a good source of a lot of conversation scenarios and stuff:

(Japanese: The Spoken Language by Noda & Harz Jordan. There are 3 volumes, I think.)
Big reason I plug these too is that they're pretty readily available and cheap on like, eBay and Half.com and stuff. Normally they're about 30 bones, but back when I got mine, I got 'em for about half that, used.

When I was first starting, I used the "Pimsleur Basic Japanese" tapes, which helped a lot, because I learn best by hearing things and repeating them.

Thanks for this thread, btw. *Bookmarks for future reference*

[tnw]

I'll say it again, when you are practicing kanji, it's important to have one of those renshu cho (or a notebook failing that) to practice writing the character. That's important. I did that even for studying for 1 kyu.

But it's the least important skill.

JSL is kind of the gold standard texbook for classroom japanese. I used that when I started taking classes. the romaji is bizarre and they use it for far too long, but they are very thorough about explaning everything.

situreisimasu. tyotto tigau to omoimasu >_>

[J. M. Romeo]

Ah well I was usually teaching the lower two levels instead of the higher ones. Mainly just because I had been there for a while and the lower levels are the hardest to teach. But even then I would have students with 5-6 years of study.

That's what I was looking for. An approximate number of years of study. I know that you're talking about Japanese people learning English, but I guess that I'm looking up to 4 or 5 years of study in order to being able to add to my resume "intermediate level of Japanese".

[BudokaiMR2]

And this is very accelerated. :D It's really nothing different from what you're saying. It's divide and conquer. Write, then read. I don't know why people act like it is a waste of time. Quick question for you. Why is it so easy for people with Chinese-language knowledge to get into Japanese? This is another benefit of Heisig method. It gets rid of that jumbling. A lot of it is gone for me.

Yeah you have me piqued a bit since I can already read fine. I don't have an actual number but I am around 800-1000. I just don't know if it is worth the effort at this point. That and I am just not sure if the method would work for me.

For some reason I always thought the books were more expensive. I might do some more research and maybe get mayu to get me one for valentines or something. heh.

[sprsk]

tyotto tigau

*slap*

I'm interested in this Hesig stuff, but to be honest, I'd rather just learn the readings. I've tried Kumon kanji drill workbooks, but I find myself going through them rather quickly and not retaining anything. The most effective for me has just been reading things in the shizen and just learning what they mean.

[Zefah]

And this is very accelerated. :D It's really nothing different from what you're saying. It's divide and conquer. Write, then read. I don't know why people act like it is a waste of time. Quick question for you. Why is it so easy for people with Chinese-language knowledge to get into Japanese? This is another benefit of Heisig method. It gets rid of that jumbling. A lot of it is gone for me.

It's quite a bit different for a Chinese person. A lot of the compound words they use are also used in the Japanese language so they go in with a huge vocabulary from the start. It's a bit different from just knowing the meaning if individual characters.

Also, the pronunciation of a lot of characters in mandarin chinese can be very close to the Japanese Onyomi of a Kanji so it is a lot easier for them to remember. Besides, most Chinese people I know can read Japanese just fine, but are terrible at speaking or writing it. I'm sure there are plenty of Chinese that speak great Japanese, but most of the ones I have met in my experience in Japan were really awful at the language.

I do see your point, though. If you learn how to read all of the Kanji that you currently know how to write, and still somehow manage to never forget how to write all of those Kanji, then you will be better off than most Japanese people.

[tnw]

To add to what zefah said.

Outside of the chinese characters, Japanese is an incredibly simple language. Memorizing kanji is probably the only really difficult part of the language.

While grammatically dissimilar, Chinese and Japanese don't conjugate adn they don't have plurals or articles, so it's easy in that way as well.

My high school Chinese was actually somewhat useful when I went back to studying Japanese. But, as an english speaker studying a romance language might have to, you have to vigilant about not being lazy and assuming that a word in one language will be the same in another. One simple example is the kanji 'teki' (like 'keizai-teki) makes a noun into an adverb in Japanese (-ly) whereas in Chinese it's pronounced 'de' it's used as possesive ('s).

I learned it in Chinese first actually, and when we got to the 'teki' grammar point in my int. Japanese class I was like wtf? :lol

A lot of times I find you can read something in Mandarin if you know Japanese, but you don't know what it means at all. A simple word da jia, has the characters for 'big ' and 'house', but in mandarin it means 'everyone' (like minna san in Japanese)

Oh, and for those of you with facebook, they have nice 'word of the day' applications. They have one for japanese, and I use the german and chinese ones.

[rollingstart]

Joke post? English is one of the most complex, hacked together, confusing ass languages in existence. The language wouldn't have ballooned to it's current usage if the British Empire hadn't grown to be so HUEG.

no, it would be semi-easy for me.

i'm already pretty fluent in american.

[Aruarian Reflection]

I'll say it again, when you are practicing kanji, it's important to have one of those renshu cho (or a notebook failing that) to practice writing the character. That's important. I did that even for studying for 1 kyu. But it's the least important skill. JSL is kind of the gold standard texbook for classroom japanese. I used that when I started taking classes. the romaji is bizarre and they use it for far too long, but they are very thorough about explaning everything. situreisimasu. tyotto tigau to omoimasu >_>

I like JSL because, yeah, I like how it's structured and does a great job covering grammar. JWL is a required companion to learn the ganas and kanji along with the grammar and vocab in JSL.

I actually came into this thread to ask about that. Besides JSL/JWL, are there any recommended "textbook" series that can take a student from beginner to, say, upper intermediate? I'm looking at the Dictionary of Basic Grammars and the Kanji books, and while they definitely serve their purpose, they don't have that kind of textbook structure that I like. They're more useful as references imo. I already use JSL/JWL, I'm wondering if there's anything else that people can recommend.

[RevenantKioku]

It's quite a bit different for a Chinese person. A lot of the compound words they use are also used in the Japanese language so they go in with a huge vocabulary from the start. It's a bit different from just knowing the meaning if individual characters.

A bit different, yes. But imagine having just one of those advantages. Knowing an English word and having an associated kanji to it. It is HUGE. I was trying to explain gravy to someone, but didn't know the word for flour. I wrote out 粉, they said "Oh! Kona!" and I learned a new word to put to my kanji. :D Sure that's a silly example but it's happened to me many more times. (I learned 偶数 and 奇数 while teaching a class because of some lesson I was doing.)

Let me quote the excerpt from Heisig that sold me on his idea.

One has only to look at the progress of non-Japanese raised with kanji to see the logic of the approach. When Chinese adult students come to the study of Japanese, they already know what the kanji mean and how to write them. They have only to learn how to read them. The progress they make in com- parison with their Western counterparts is usually attributed to their being “Oriental.” In fact, Chinese grammar and pronunciation have about as much to do with Japanese as English does. It is their knowledge of the meaning and writing of the kanji that gives the Chinese the decisive edge. My idea was sim- ply to learn from this common experience and give the kanji an English read- ing. Having learned to write the kanji in this way—which, I repeat, is the most logical and rational part of the study of Japanese—one is in a much better position to concentrate on the often irrational and unprincipled problem of learning to pronounce them.

His method basically works on breaking them down. The first 15 kanji he teaches you are fairly simple. Then he builds more kanji with the previous kanji. And some more basic stroke combinations that show up and then continuously build.

I do see your point, though. If you learn how to read all of the Kanji that you currently know how to write, and still somehow manage to never forget how to write all of those Kanji, then you will be better off than most Japanese people.

Although it's pretty embarrassing for Japanese people when you write a kanji, they go "That's not right." they look it up and then whoops, I was right. :D

What I'm surprised most people aren't talking about is the AJATT guy. He proposes learning Japanese without ever using a textbook, outside of the first Heisig book.

While grammatically dissimilar, Chinese and Japanese don't conjugate adn they don't have plurals or articles, so it's easy in that way as well.

I'm bad with grammar terms, but 食べる　ー＞　食べさせられる isn't conjugation? Granted, it's pretty simple.
Oh and plurals is nothing compared to the nightmare of counters. ><;

[tnw]

I like JSL because, yeah, I like how it's structured and does a great job covering grammar. JWL is a required companion to learn the ganas and kanji along with the grammar and vocab in JSL. I actually came into this thread to ask about that. Besides JSL/JWL, are there any recommended "textbook" series that can take a student from beginner to, say, upper intermediate? I'm looking at the Dictionary of Basic Grammars and the Kanji books, and while they definitely serve their purpose, they don't have that kind of textbook structure that I like. They're more useful as references imo. I already use JSL/JWL, I'm wondering if there's anything else that people can recommend.

well, that's what being intermediate is all about. You don't need textbook style instruction anymore. You already know how to study, you just need resources.

I know a lot of places use the textbook Intermediate Japanese after the two JSL books. I think it's a Japan Times book, but I don't remember. I used it many moons ago.

And about conjugation, I meant 'be' very conjugation. And if we're considering your example to be conjugation, it's very simple and very consistant. I mean there are different ways of going to past tense, etc, but it's very consistant. My main problem with German for example is article genders (Japanese has no genders), and how there's no clear cut rule to them. It's like kanji; suck it up and memorize. :/

And counters are hard I guess, but you can always just say 'hitotsu' or '-ko'. You can count your chopsticks with 'zen' if you want to, but no one will know the difference if you use a generic counter.

[sprsk]

I learned Japanese 90% without a textbook using the Japanese-all-the-time method. Mind you, I had no idea this guy had his website before the other day.

[RevenantKioku]

Yeah you have me piqued a bit since I can already read fine. I don't have an actual number but I am around 800-1000. I just don't know if it is worth the effort at this point. That and I am just not sure if the method would work for me. For some reason I always thought the books were more expensive. I might do some more research and maybe get mayu to get me one for valentines or something. heh.

I have a buddy who passed 1級 and even he is falling in love with using Heisig. He said a similar thing "I can read them, but I can't pull them out of my head when I need them."

I learned Japanese 90% without a textbook using the Japanese-all-the-time method. Mind you, I had no idea this guy had his website before the other day.

Yeah, it's kinda common sense but when you get slapped in the face with it, it kinda becomes more of a "Why aren't I doing this in Japanese instead?" Consulting J-J dictionaries was a big one for me. I'm slowly getting better but I surely am.

The basic is important though. You need lots and lots of Japanese input if you're ever going to get good at Japanese.

The sentence method of reviewing (and SRS in general) was a big boost for me.

[Blackace]

I'm bad with grammar terms, but 食べる　ー＞　食べさせられる isn't conjugation? Granted, it's pretty simple. Oh and plurals is nothing compared to the nightmare of counters. ><;

actually the counters are not as much of a nightmare as English and it non-countable/countable nouns. But it does suck trying to figure out what is the counter for computers..

[Blackace]

Yeah, it's kinda common sense but when you get slapped in the face with it, it kinda becomes more of a "Why aren't I doing this in Japanese instead?" Consulting J-J dictionaries was a big one for me. I'm slowly getting better but I surely am.

I would suggest to anyone to pick up a elementry school J-J dictionary! But I admit I use a J-E when I am cramming. I don't have the time to do otherwise. I work waaaaaaay too much

[tnw]

actually the counters are not as much of a nightmare as English and it non-countable/countable nouns. But it does suck trying to figure out what is the counter for computers..

this is true. while you sit there wondering if something is flat/thin or round/long, Japanese people are wondeirng 'is it a whole object by itself? can I cut it up?' etc.

The best option is using a J-J (koujien) for getting subtle meanings of words. J-E dictionaries, even ALC, don't have very good explanations of what you're trying to look up.

[Juice]

I'm not that into the Heisig method, but I used to be a roughly JLPT-2.5 level speaker/reader/writer, and I've not used Japanese in about a year.

But thanks for Anki!! That's an extremely effective software flash card app. It's nice that it has the following to provide me with additional decks as well. Very neat.

[Aruarian Reflection]

well, that's what being intermediate is all about. You don't need textbook style instruction anymore. You already know how to study, you just need resources. I know a lot of places use the textbook Intermediate Japanese after the two JSL books. I think it's a Japan Times book, but I don't remember. I used it many moons ago.

Hrm, I guess so. I'm ordering the grammar books as we speak :D. Doing a little more reading on the Kanji books before I order those, but I do need a lot of help with Kanji. I went to Chinese school when I was younger and had very poor memory retention.

[Blackace]

The best option is using a J-J (koujien) for getting subtle meanings of words. J-E dictionaries, even ALC, don't have very good explanations of what you're trying to look up.

When I had the time it was great. Nothing eats up your time like looking up another word while looking up a word :lol

but it does wonders for your Japanese. I just work 3 jobs and it kills me

[Axalon]

I always hear people say this. But why? What makes English so complicated to know?

I know English as my first language, so this isn't bitterness, but what makes it hard is that sentences like this are possible:

I had a ball with my ball at the ball.
I'll wring his neck for stealing my ring.
The rock was thrown at the throne.

Not to mention verb structure is all over the place. Conjugation is somewhat simple (with there only being a singular and plural form for each tense), though there are so many different rules for doing it (due to the fact that English has a messy history involving taking chunks out of Gaelic, German, French, and Greek and somehow meshing it all together), that it doesn't really seem to follow a strict, logical pattern.

With that said, languages aren't difficult, so long as you're exposed. While that all-Japanese-all-the-time guy may be slightly insane (yes, let's just throw out EVERYTHING not Japanese and replace it with Japanese substitutes for immersion), but he does have the point that language is absorbed through experiencing it in the world around you, not by regularly memorizing chunks of it.