Startropics, Mother/Earthbound, and Legend of Stafy: Why not, Nintendo?

[ethelred]

But it is now. And now is what we're talking about. Yes, I know DS has a large audience, so does VC. That's irrelevant. The release window for market acceptance of these games is over. We won't get them.

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense to me that you're excusing Nintendo now by pointing to something Nintendo did just a short while in the past. Current bad acts aren't erased by prior bad acts.

"It's okay that neither Nintendo nor Atlus will release Mother 3 now, because Nintendo cockblocked Atlus a couple of years ago." Nintendo is still the central party at fault -- it's not the market that is the root of the problem, it isn't the ravages of time. It's still Nintendo.

[Teknoman]

They are wrong. No one from Contact worked on Mother 3. I went through Mobygames and found only one name is common between the credits for Contact and the Mother games, Junichi Akama. He was a writer for Contact and a debugger for EB so I doubt both credits even refer to the same person. Further, that quote says Dr. Andonuts has a cameo in the game, which is also untrue. The only time what they wrote was even barely plausible was when Contact was first announced and the professor was the only known image from the game, but now it is known to be entirely false. What they wrote is probably what they wanted to be true, when people hoped Contact would be a substitute for Mother.

Well someone needs to get in on that and fix it at Starmen. Thats just misleading people.

[Kusagari]

NIS is low-budget and generally won't do anything other than their own stuff. There are exceptions, but I think this amounts to owners of the company being close friends with owners of the other companies they're working with - meetings over lunch, etc. Atlus could have done this 3 years ago, but not now. The market wouldn't take it. I will say this again. < 1% of the user base will buy these games. It's not profitable, and that's what matters at the end of the day. I'm sure Nintendo would do it if they thought they could profit, but they have people dedicated to analyzing costs and determining if an action taken by the corporation is viable for the company's bottom line. Sorry, the hardcore won't win this one. Find your ROMs, pick your battles.

Nintendo probably said that exact same thing about Fire Emblem and yet they now see fit to release every game here. Earthbound bombed back in 1995 before RPGs were even mainstream. All they had to do was plaster Ness on the Mother 1 and 2 package and the game would have most likely sold as well as any Fire Emblem here. Smash Bros did wonders for FE, why wouldn't it do it for Earthbound/Mother with Ness and now Lucas in the game?

[Dubble]

All three game frachises in question are for babies. If you can't see past that, take off your fanboy slash nostalgia goggles.

This argument doesn't really hold water because the same thing could most certainly be said for Kirby and could probably be argued for Mario and Pokemon. And yet they continue to succeed - Kirby especially.

Startropics was pretty much a watered down Zelda clone in a modern day setting. Stafy is "the new Kirby" apparently. And Mother/Earthbound was always in its own little world and was moreso a victim of terrible timing and gamers not really being used to the concept of RPG's being mainstream than anything else.

Not everything has to be hardcore guns and sex and violence and maturity for it to be profitable or successful. Kirby's success proved that a LOT of it is all in how you market it.

[Teknoman]

Not to mention how much ass Lucas and Ness kick in Brawl.

[Lhadatt]

ethelred: "Excusing Nintendo" makes it sound like you think Nintendo owes you something. They don't.

Nintendo probably said that exact same thing about Fire Emblem and yet they now see fit to release every game here. Earthbound bombed back in 1995 before RPGs were even mainstream. All they had to do was plaster Ness on the Mother 1 and 2 package and the game would have most likely sold as well as any Fire Emblem here. Smash Bros did wonders for FE, why wouldn't it do it for Earthbound/Mother with Ness and now Lucas in the game?

Fire Emblem had flagship Gamecube and Wii versions to get people into the series. Earthbound does not.

If there's a Wii Mother game, you'll probably see the series appear here because they'll have the production cycle in gear to spend a bit more money and time on getting the previous games cleaned up legally (see music reason earlier in thread) and ported to VC or DS. The Wii version would probably receive a marketing push along with the previous games. I seriously doubt you'll see the series here otherwise.

[MoxManiac]

Nintendo probably said that exact same thing about Fire Emblem and yet they now see fit to release every game here. Earthbound bombed back in 1995 before RPGs were even mainstream. All they had to do was plaster Ness on the Mother 1 and 2 package and the game would have most likely sold as well as any Fire Emblem here. Smash Bros did wonders for FE, why wouldn't it do it for Earthbound/Mother with Ness and now Lucas in the game?

Actually, I think Fire Emblem's more serious tone had something to do with it. Nintendo was a lot more conservative back then.

I read somewhere that FE actually has sold better in NA then in Japan recently. Not sure if that's true.

[Stumpokapow]

ethelred: "Excusing Nintendo" makes it sound like you think Nintendo owes you something. They don't.

They do if they want his money.

[MoogPaul]

I found more information on the copyright infringements currently found in Earthbound which is preventing it's release on the VC from starmen.net

The Hippie Battle music (http://youtube.com/watch?v=H79NcVKBKqc) is apparently too similar with a Chuck Berry song.
The Sky Runner theme (http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2Bsl7P6h0c) borrows heavily from an intro of a The Who song.

These two songs will almost positively need to be removed/replaced. There are a few other songs where the state of them is unsure.
At a certain point in the game, the enemy named Dali's Clock shows up. moonside This name is copyrighted by the Salvador Dalí estate and will have to undergo a change as well.

[charlequin]

ethelred: "Excusing Nintendo" makes it sound like you think Nintendo owes you something. They don't.

It's not so much a matter of "owing" as simple factual extrapolation. Who's to blame for Mother 3 not coming out in the US, or Earthbound not releasing on VC? That would be Nintendo of America. They hold the responsibility for that decision, so presumably if (like myself) you are a fan of all things good and great and therefore wish to give Nintendo money to play these games, any ire you might hold is best directed at them.

Fire Emblem had flagship Gamecube and Wii versions to get people into the series. Earthbound does not.

That's kind of a silly claim given that NOA built up the Fire Emblem series in the US using GBA entries for two years before releasing the GameCube title.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

i don't really understand the "why don't they resurrect x IP?" rhetoric

sure, some suggestions are legit. but like with kid icarus for example. what is it that needs to be modernized? a lot of its progeny already has been translated into 3D and implemented with contemporary game mechanics. plus the game is like 20 years old and there've been no real successors, nothing to really connect the dots on what it could evolve to.

[ethelred]

ethelred: "Excusing Nintendo" makes it sound like you think Nintendo owes you something. They don't.

Your post was making excuses for Nintendo. Your post was exculpating them from their own bad acts, as if the company was somehow a hapless victim to external forces like timing and the market. The simple truth is that Nintendo and Nintendo alone is the reason these games aren't here, the reason they're not on the VC, the reason the compilations came over and the reason they're even being stripped out of Japanese packages that are released in the US. Nintendo deserves every bit of blame and criticism for that.

Fire Emblem had flagship Gamecube and Wii versions to get people into the series. Earthbound does not.

You know how dumb this is? Nintendo has thrived on their handheld games. It's been the pillar that's held the company up for many years. You're arguing that Mother couldn't have been successful on the GBA, a platform that saw almost two million sales for Golden Sun? Plenty of GBA games killed in sales -- and, in point of fact, Fire Emblem sold twice as much on the GBA as it has on the GameCube and Wii.

I think I just sunk your flagship.

[the_zombie_luke]

A new StarTropics would be amazing. The island setting was interesting and so was everything else. They don't need to keep the tile jumping if they go to 3D, just something like it. Even a remake would be pretty sweet. The evil alien that abducted your uncle(what was his name? Xerxes or something) would look awesome in 3D and if they expanded the yo-yo combat it would be a great game. They don't even need motion controls either, if the yo-yo controlled like the diskarmor in Rygar it would be so fun.

[jarrod]

Who's to blame for Mother 3 not coming out in the US,

HAL, for bungling the N64 release. ;)

NOA's recent aversion to Mother is pretty dumb though, especially with the growing fan interest and the way Fire Emlem and Wars have thrived. I dunno with NOA, it's always one step forward, two steps back. :/

[SailorDaravon]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but on the last (?) Retronauts Parish was saying he thought a possible reason we haven't seen Earthbound is that the translation and/or scenario isn't owned by Nintendo, it's owned by Itoi (?). I remember hearing this way back when people were questioning why we weren't getting the GBA compilation, but hadn't heard about it for years until that podcast last week. If I recall correctly, the original release was already ESRB rated, so I don't think that fee would apply again. But ultimately the costs of having to re-translate the game and remove the two songs combined with the relatively small number of people who would buy the game probably make it low priority for them. And that's assuming it's NOT an issue with the scenario, in which case they'd have to pay Itoi whatever he wants as a fee, assuming he's not even interested. There HAS to be something to some of this, given it's already ESRB rated. If the only issue was the removal of those two songs I don't see why they wouldn't have already done it by now. Nintendo DOES like money people, I somehow don't think they're out to get all the Mother fans personally.

Given all that I don't think a VC release is likely in the near future, but I do think it was dumb of Nintendo to not release the GBA compilation or Mother 3 here given pretty solid RPG sales on the system. A DS compilation would make too much sense for Nintendo to do.

Aside from all that, Star Tropics is a good call, but that probably goes back to it having no presence in Japan.

[Grecco]

Plus I mean, they removed the Mother 2 demo from the American version of Smash Bros. Brawl. I mean, a game they actually have IN ENGLISH ALREADY they removed the demo of, in exactly the type of game that would help promote the franchise in America. I think that proves there's no "exaggerating" their stance. Nintendo doesn't like gamer people.

I thought the problem here was Nintendo has a rights issue with US version of Earthbound. Or the Text anyways i think thats what they said on retronauts?

[Conrad Link]

Yeah it was either some behind the scenes problem as to why Earthbound was removed or they just took it out not to get peoples hopes up. :P

Like: "Aw man, we're never doing anything with this franchise but if we put it in Brawl we'll get nothing but ZOMG ITS ON THE WAY SURELY hopes and comments to deal with."

[phalestine]

Just NoA, NoE, and NoJ

no such thing as NoJ bud.

[DevelopmentArrested]

i wanna play earthbound

[Kulock]

Someone found a list of dropped Brawl music? Where would that be, by chance?

EDIT: That story about the Beatles is also a load of crap. The motif references in Earthbound's soundtrack are minimal; the only one I think someone would pick out at a casual listen is the end-area music, which is really just sampling "La Marseillaise." This is just another way of saying, "oh, Nintendo really wants to bring the game out, but those BAD PEOPLE ARE STOPPING THEM!"

And they would still keep including Mother 2 in the Japanese release if this were true? Maybe the copyright laws would be more forgiving there about it, but this is Nintendo, I doubt they'd take a chance on it.

Either way, even with potential issues with certain songs or an enemy name, are you saying they couldn't pick a 2-3 minute segment out of a lengthy RPG where none of these things occur? On the other hand, perhaps they were afraid that if the timer for the trials was hacked (as it eventually will be), people could play the full game and still encounter them. Still, a day with a hex editor and I'm sure they could've at least just duplicated non-offending content over the offending content, especially when the full game isn't meant to be played through anyway.

[RurouniZel]

Trust me folks, it's not like NoA is blind to the fact that almost every time they get interviewed about bringing old IPs back, Mother is always on top of the list. The problem with a series like Mother is when the rights for various parts of the game belong to other people (read: Itoi) it can get pretty sticky if they want some atrocious fee or insane conditions.

To use an anime as an example: When Funimation announced it was bringing Kodomo no Omocha to America (something anime fans had been clamoring for maybe 12 years or so... like Mother as it were...) they were immensely excited. However a few months before the release, they found out that the company that they bought the rights to the show from did NOT own the rights to the opening song. In a very unusual case, the singer held the rights to his own song, and wanted an astronomical amount of money for it. As a result, when they released the show in America, they had to remove the song altogether. This doesn't seem bad in and of itself at first, but if you watch the show in Japanese, the song literally fills the first 7 or so episodes and there's even a cameo from the singer himself. What happens, due to rights, is they had to botch the audio here, so these bits are played in complete silence while the subtitles keep rolling. Fans were very upset, and while some people were very understanding of Funimation's predicament, many others thought they were just making excuses.

This could be a very similar situation, and perhaps NoA does not want to speak about it because it would seem like they were making excuses. In addition, NoA saying things about Itoi could hurt his relationship with NoJ, and I don't think they want that. NoJ could be telling NoA to keep it's damn mouth shut on the topic for that very reason.

Do I know any of this for fact? No, it's speculation. But seeing everything that's happened, interviews, and rights related points has led me to believe there's more to this issue than Nintendo "hating gamers"

[ruby_onix]

Trust me folks, it's not like NoA is blind to the fact that almost every time they get interviewed about bringing old IPs back, Mother is always on top of the list. The problem with a series like Mother is when the rights for various parts of the game belong to other people (read: Itoi) it can get pretty sticky if they want some atrocious fee or insane conditions.

Nintendo was happy to pay Dr. Kawashima $22 million to release Brain Age.

[Choke on the Magic]

If they make Startropics for Wii. I'll actually buy one.

[Xeke]

I was under the impression that Stafy is a childs game?

[phalestine]

Nintendo was happy to pay Dr. Kawashima $22 million to release Brain Age.

I thought he didn't get paid at all? and that his family was upset with him over that.

[Wizpig]

yeah startropics Wii would be fun actually.

Yo-yo the enemies to death... with your actual hands movements!

[RurouniZel]

Nintendo was happy to pay Dr. Kawashima $22 million to release Brain Age.

And look at the numbers for Brain Age. I highly doubt a Mother game would make even 5% of that profit I'm sad to say...

[Shiggy]

I thought he didn't get paid at all? and that his family was upset with him over that.

He didn't, but his institute (?).

[Stumpokapow]

I thought he didn't get paid at all? and that his family was upset with him over that.

His university was paid, and it's his choice.

[RurouniZel]

I thought he didn't get paid at all? and that his family was upset with him over that.

He was paid an initial fee for his likeness; what he didn't except was the huge amount of money he was supposed to get in royalties.

[ruby_onix]

I thought he didn't get paid at all? and that his family was upset with him over that.

Nah, Nintendo paid him, it was just that he donated his cut of the money to the University he worked for (which was already getting a massive cut).

[ethelred]

I was under the impression that Stafy is a childs game?

Well, yeah. It's a Nintendo game.

[MercuryLS]

It's a damn shame that Rhythm Tengoku never came out here. I'd buy a DS for a sequel.

[Rancid Mildew]

It's times like these that make me infinitely grateful for fan translators. I can't wait for Starmen.net to complete their version. Their work so far seems top notch.

I also think people need to give Nintendo a little room to breathe. The fact that they are enthusiastic about translating and establishing Fire Emblem and Advance Wars in western markets, both niche and fairly text heavy games that would probably sell in the same range as hypothetical Mother translations, is enough circumstantial proof that there are some pretty significant roadblocks in my opinion.

[Xeke]

Well, yeah. It's a Nintendo game.

Well I guess it's better than dungeon crawlers.

[ethelred]

Well I guess it's better than dungeon crawlers.

For children, sure.

It's times like these that make me infinitely grateful for fan translators. I can't wait for Starmen.net to complete their version. Their work so far seems top notch. I also think people need to give Nintendo a little room to breathe. The fact that they are enthusiastic about translating and establishing Fire Emblem and Advance Wars in western markets, both niche and fairly text heavy games that would probably sell in the same range as hypothetical Mother translations, is enough circumstantial proof that there are some pretty significant roadblocks in my opinion.

I don't think they deserve any slack, though. I mean, both Fire Emblem and Advance Wars -- both of those series sell way more in the US than they do in Japan now. Golden Sun sold a lot more in the US than in Japan. There's a market for this stuff here, especially when you factor in the already preexisting (rabid) Mother fanbase.

I think if your own company is making very high quality games, there needs to be a really good reason if you're choosing (over and over and over again) not to release those games in all the available markets when there is a demand for them in various places. They're doing a real disservice to their own fans and to the consumers who've bought their platforms.

You look at most Japanese companies, and they're releasing the vast majority of their well received products in the US, even the more niche games. The ones that don't (like Scamco) get an enormous amount of flak for that, and I don't see why Nintendo should be any different. They're basically on the same level.

[duckroll]

There might actually be a logical reason. These are all games which Nintendo does not have full creative control over. They're actually non-Nintendo ideas, and are bankrolled by Nintendo of Japan. Maybe Nintendo doesn't want to actively make something that is not 100% theirs, successful?

[ruby_onix]

And look at the numbers for Brain Age. I highly doubt a Mother game would make even 5% of that profit I'm sad to say...

That's the point. Startropics/Earthbound/Starfy/Kid Icarus would almost certainly earn profit, but if they don't earn Brain Age-level profits, Nintendo hates them with all their guts.

Itoi wants a 1% cut of the profits? What absurdity! That would be almost $5000!

Dr. Kawashima wants a 1% cut (which he'll then give to charity)? Someone write him a check for $22 million.

They don't care about the amount. They care that Mother isn't Brain Age. $5,000 becomes an excuse where $22,000,000 wasn't.

I also think people need to give Nintendo a little room to breathe. The fact that they are enthusiastic about translating and establishing Fire Emblem and Advance Wars in western markets, both niche and fairly text heavy games that would probably sell in the same range as hypothetical Mother translations, is enough circumstantial proof that there are some pretty significant roadblocks in my opinion.

I have no evidence, but I thought I had heard that Fire Emblem and the Wars series have been selling even better in America than they did in Japan. And these were the two series that people once described as "niche" and tried to justify Nintendo's refusal to give them a chance by saying there was no way Nintendo could earn a profit on them.

Nintendo CAN earn a profit on niche games. Just not big ones (big enough to make some people drool though). And there's always a chance that the game will explode into the kind of superhit Nintendo demands. So why doesn't Nintendo take more chances? It's completely illogical. I think it's because Nintendo feels that games don't "become" hits. Nintendo has to "make" them hits. And Nintendo is currently too busy trying to turn WiiFit or whatever into the next big thing, so they have no time for that thing you want. But rest assured, if/when they do eventually get around to your idea, it will earn money for Nintendo (which in the end, is all we really care about, right).

[Chairman Yang]

I'm glad Nintendo isn't releasing a translated Mother 3 (although I still think they're dumb and evil for not doing so). Now, with the fan translation, we can get a version that won't be castrated.

[duckroll]

I'm glad Nintendo isn't releasing a translated Mother 3 (although I still think they're dumb and evil for not doing so). Now, with the fan translation, we can get a version that won't be castrated.

Yeah, and we don't even have to pay for this one too! WOO HOOO!

[charlequin]

And they would still keep including Mother 2 in the Japanese release if this were true?

The source on this is apparently an NoA internal source, which leads me to believe that the problem is less "there is a copyright problem with material in Earthbound" and more "a team of lawyers employed by NoA picked out some pretty unlikely problems and asked for them to be changed."

Trust me folks, it's not like NoA is blind to the fact that almost every time they get interviewed about bringing old IPs back, Mother is always on top of the list. The problem with a series like Mother is when the rights for various parts of the game belong to other people (read: Itoi) it can get pretty sticky if they want some atrocious fee or insane conditions.

I honestly doubt that Itoi's rights over Earthbound extend to anything like him having a say in localization. Many times when a first-party publishes a game developed by an outside developer, said developer retains the copyright and trademarks on the material in the game, but the publication agreement generally includes the upfront inclusion of all localization approval and other such matters that are required to publish a game effectively. As with the TOSE interview about Stafy above, it's unlikely that the localization decisions were in anyone's hands but Nintendo's.

There's also no reason to believe that Itoi would object to a localization (he designed the Mr. Saturn font for the US Earthbound himself) or would try to hold up such a project for any reason (his relationship to Nintendo is historically quite good, which explains his working with them to develop the Mother series.)

[JonathanEx]

I asked Satoru Iwata if they had any plans to bring Stafy over to other countries, and whose responsibility it was:

"I'll do it! I'm doing it!"




...he never said anything like that.

[charlequin]

You look at most Japanese companies, and they're releasing the vast majority of their well received products in the US, even the more niche games.

Exactly. This isn't 1997 anymore; thanks to the Internet gamers have far more understanding of what titles are being released elsewhere in the world, and thanks to the hard-working efforts of many American publishers (including Nintendo, whose Treehouse branch have done nothing short of stupendous jobs with the FE and AW series) a market exists in the US for niche properties, especially RPG and strategy titles from Japan.

Nintendo CAN earn a profit on niche games.

Absolutely. And they can certainly earn a profit on a VC release of Earthbound, a game that's already completed and translated.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

What about this series?

[Wizpig]

What about this series?

Gimme! I said GIMME!
I want it :(

[jarrod]

Well, yeah. It's a Nintendo game.

Also a Nintendo game: Ogre Battle 64. :P

[Crushed]

(Ctrl+F "solar striker")

:(

[ethelred]

Also a Nintendo game: Ogre Battle 64. :P

Not at all. As you well know, Nintendo never owned the rights to Ogre Battle; it was never their IP. It was strictly and entirely owned by Quest. Quest could've published the game themselves, but went with Nintendo for superior distribution. It's the same deal as Chunsoft and Sega/Nintendo over Shiren.

TOSE says that they only co-own Stafy with Nintendo.

[The Experiment]

Personally, I think there is a high up executive (Vice President or higher) that has no faith in the Mother series and therefore, tries to kill it at every opportunity.

[ruby_onix]

Personally, I think there is a high up executive (Vice President or higher) that has no faith in the Mother series and therefore, tries to kill it at every opportunity.

That wouldn't be a faith issue (as there were at least two recent avenues that required no faith at all), it would be a hatred one.