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OttomanScribe
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(05-17-2012, 09:22 AM)
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Kad 5, hasn't this dance already happened? This discussion?
Kad5
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(05-17-2012, 09:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

Kad 5, hasn't this dance already happened? This discussion?

If it has I don't recall. My apologies.

I guess at some point I will say I will try and learn how to pray. The Quran doesn't actually specify a particular WAY to pray i'm pretty sure. Most people go by tradition. My uncle is a Shi'a and prays in the according way.

Does it matter how I choose to pray?
OttomanScribe
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(05-17-2012, 09:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

If it has I don't recall. My apologies.

I guess at some point I will say I will try and learn how to pray. The Quran doesn't actually specify a particular WAY to pray i'm pretty sure. Most people go by tradition. My uncle is a Shi'a and prays in the according way.

Does it matter how I choose to pray?

The Qur'an says how to pray when it commands you to take the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) as your example. The way that you do this is to look at what the scholars say on such matters, as the Qur'an commands you to 'Ask those who know'. If you reject hadith, then you have no way of understanding the law, or contextualising the Qur'ran. You have the boat but no rudder, a cart but no horse.
ZiZ
that ain't rice
it's bits of Semtex
(05-17-2012, 10:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by RustyNails

Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(

the fact that you still care about that is a good sign. you're a good guy rusty, you might not know me, but we run in the same circles. Like OttomanScribe said it'll help if you hang out with people who will have a better influence on you, and I'm not talking about religious people, just people who wouldn't skip their prayers. I know that you're very talented and that your talents and hobbies might not be viewed very positively in our community, but don't let your relationship with your community influence your relationship with god.

also, you've probably heard this before but I find that sometimes people (me included) tend to forget that prayer is worship and not a habit or custom.

may god help the both of us.
Instigator
Banned
(05-17-2012, 10:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by RustyNails

Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(

And that is bad because...?

Why follow rules and rituals that have no meaning or relevance for you? For family? Just force of habit? Have courage, stand up for yourself and be your own man.
crazy monkey
holds a masters in liberal arts
(05-17-2012, 12:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by RustyNails

Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(

Brother I am very busy as well. Find the time. If it is in your heart you will. I take time off from meetings and such for 10 minutes to pray. Make intention in your heart insha alah. Fazr and isha you can easily make it. Read the pocket quran before you go to sleep even few lines or pages. you never miss jumma man. I drive take time off and come back and I work extra hour so that I can go there. I understand not everyone can do that. But keep the iman in your mind. Insha allah it will be not that hard. you will time once you decide it.
RustyNails
with arms wide open / under the sunlight / welcome to this place / i'll show you everythaaaang
(05-17-2012, 04:13 PM)
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Thanks for the replies guys. I will def try to incorporate prayers and Quran very soon onwards. My company of colleagues is pretty much non-Muslim, and sometimes I'm traveling to really small towns/locales with 0 Muslim population. But these days I'm glad to be traveling to Dearborn, Mich.

Instigator: I don't feel that performing prayers/reading Quran is a ritual for namesake. I truly feel that these articles of faith bring peace and stability in my life. I'm simply slipping away into wordly affairs, something that was warned to us strongly in both Quran and Hadiths. Some people in Muslim societies invented rituals: like visiting graves every friday without fail or celebrating Miraj and whatnot. Those I'm especially not to keen on following. There's a huge difference.
Azih
Member
(05-17-2012, 04:25 PM)

Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

The Qur'an says how to pray when it commands you to take the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) as your example. The way that you do this is to look at what the scholars say on such matters, as the Qur'an commands you to 'Ask those who know'.

What verses are these?
Azih
Member
(05-17-2012, 04:31 PM)

Originally Posted by Instigator

And that is bad because...?

Praying regularly is similar to say meditating daily. It's a way to reaffirm what is important in a systematic way and the only way to not lose touch with it in any case (just like everything else that matters, exercise, keeping in contact with people etc., you gotta do it consistently).
Last edited by Azih; 05-17-2012 at 04:34 PM.
Instigator
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(05-17-2012, 07:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Azih

Praying regularly is similar to say meditating daily. It's a way to reaffirm what is important in a systematic way and the only way to not lose touch with it in any case (just like everything else that matters, exercise, keeping in contact with people etc., you gotta do it consistently).

Yes if he feels it's pointless then his priorities have changed. He's just in denial about it.
Kad5
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(05-17-2012, 07:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

The Qur'an says how to pray when it commands you to take the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) as your example. The way that you do this is to look at what the scholars say on such matters, as the Qur'an commands you to 'Ask those who know'. If you reject hadith, then you have no way of understanding the law, or contextualising the Qur'ran. You have the boat but no rudder, a cart but no horse.

Where in the quran does it ask those who know?

I thought the quran was all you needed since its a perfect book?

[Quran 6:38] ..We did not leave anything out of this book..
Last edited by Kad5; 05-17-2012 at 07:28 PM.
Ashes
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(05-17-2012, 08:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

Where in the quran does it ask those who know?

I thought the quran was all you needed since its a perfect book?

[Quran 6:38] ..We did not leave anything out of this book..

Its not as clear as that. Iirc, that passage is talking about birds, and that they have communities, and then this single line comes in, and then moves on. And thus there are a few different interpretations. From 'not neglecting' to calling it, the book, a register among other things.

Regardless, I doubt whether any book is of its self. If one is intelligent enough to read a book, then he has intelligence enough to know that he has learnt reading from a different book.
OttomanScribe
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(05-18-2012, 03:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

Where in the quran does it ask those who know?

I thought the quran was all you needed since its a perfect book?

[Quran 6:38] ..We did not leave anything out of this book..

You need many things, the perfection of the book does not detract from that. You need the tools to understand it to start with. You need the context, you need sound Arabic, you need sound mind, you need the understanding of the one who conveyed the Message itself to you.

The Qur'an sets out the role of Messengers and Prophets (alayhis salaam) as teachers as well as conveyors of revelation. That is why there are Prophets at all. Clearly if all that was intended was a static book, then there would be no function for either. This is an illogical position, and contradicted by the Qur'an.

The Qur'an says:

2:129
"O our Sustainer! Raise up from the midst of our offspring
106an apostle from amongthemselves, who shall convey unto them Thy messages, and impart unto them revelation as well as wisdom, and cause them to grow in purity: for, verily, Thou alone art almighty, trulywise!"

(which shows that Allah does not confine the teaching of knowledge to revelation)
2:237-9
BE EVER mindful of prayers, and of praying in the most excellent way;
and stand beforeGod in devout obedience.
But if you are in danger, [pray] walking or riding;
andwhen you are again secure, bear God in mind - since it is He who taught you what you did not previously know.

(which shows that God taught people how to pray, something taught not through the Qur'an, but to Mohammed sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam and then to the people by God)

2:151
Even as We have sent unto you an apostle from among yourselves to convey unto you Our messages, and to cause you to grow in purity, and to impart unto you revelation and wisdom,
and to teach you that which you knew not:

(again, showing that the role of Prophethood is not merely dumb conveyance)

3:31-1
Say [O Prophet]: "If you love God, follow me, [and] God will love you and forgive you your sins; for God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace."
Say: "Pay heed unto God and the Apostle."

(this verse occurs in an exhortation to beware of the day of judgement, and is not a temporary command)




3:132-5
And pay heed unto God and the Apostle, so that you might be graced with mercy. And vie with one another to attain to your Sustainer's forgiveness and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for the God-conscious who spend [inHis way] in time of plenty and in time of hardship, and hold in check their anger, and pardon their fellow-men because God loves the doers of good; and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have [otherwise] sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever [wrong] they may have done.

(again, we see the two sources presented, if the Qur'an is all you need, why is the Qur'an telling you to pay heed to something else???)

3:164
Indeed, God bestowed a favour upon the believers when he raised up in their midst an apostlefrom among themselves, to convey His messages unto them, and to cause them to grow in purity, and to impart unto them the divine writ as well as wisdom - whereas before that theywere indeed, most obviously, lost in error

(I can go all day, the amount of verses that point to the Prophets being transmitters not merely of revelation but also of hikma, are everywhere, if the Qur'an is all the wisdom that exists, then why does it refer to hikma other than itself?)
Helscream
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(05-18-2012, 04:26 AM)
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Ok, serious question here.

I was reading that Allah has three daughter's.

al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat

Is there any mention of this in your venerated Qur'an? If so, then who did Allah procreate with to begat his three daughters.
Glasswork
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(05-18-2012, 04:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by Helscream

Ok, serious question here.

I was reading that Allah has three daughter's.

al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat

Is there any mention of this in your venerated Qur'an? If so, then who did Allah procreate with to begat his three daughters.

Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat were the three daughters of Allah in pre-Islamic Arab mythology, they have nothing to do with Islam, aside from the controversial 'Satanic Verses'.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
(05-18-2012, 04:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by Instigator

Yes if he feels it's pointless then his priorities have changed. He's just in denial about it.

At no point in his confession I saw he thought all of those "islamic" things as pointless. Are you sure you're not projecting your viewpoints to his?
magash
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(05-18-2012, 04:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by Helscream

Ok, serious question here.

I was reading that Allah has three daughter's.

al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat

Is there any mention of this in your venerated Qur'an? If so, then who did Allah procreate with to begat his three daughters.

This is 100% false in Islam. We believe that such actions (procreation, be-getting children) is beneath Allah.


"
1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One.

2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."


The above Surah (chapter) perfectly explains Islam's view on the notion of "Allah having a child/ be-getting a child".
Sutton Dagger
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(05-18-2012, 04:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vivalaraza

I don't understand.

If God commands any Muslim to do something, they must do it. So if God commands any Muslim today to sacrifice his son, he should do so.

Originally Posted by Vivalaraza

I think alot of devout Muslims would.

You have to think about what the spiritual experience would be here. If God physically sent an Angel to a Muslim and told him of God's will...that spiritual moment alone would be incredible for a Muslim. It would just solidify their strength of belief to the absolute max. I'm not saying it would be easy for them to go and slaughter their son, but after a confirmation of your belief like that, I think it isn't crazy.

If this command was written in the Qur'an or something similar...I guess you'd just have a lot less Muslims in the world.

The fact that no one questioned these statements is horrifying to me...
Ashes
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(05-18-2012, 06:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

The fact that no one questioned these statements is horrifying to me...

Depends if the God x=truth.

god X here changed the knife, and the sacrifice was never a sacrifice but a test.* Repeat experiment and the consequences will always be the same.

Of course if God z, says sacrifice your son, and a son is sacrificed, then that is different.



*Of course this is a story about a god and his messenger.
Last edited by Ashes; 05-18-2012 at 07:02 AM.
AB12
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(05-18-2012, 07:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

The fact that no one questioned these statements is horrifying to me...

Why?...
Kad5
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(05-18-2012, 07:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

You need many things, the perfection of the book does not detract from that. You need the tools to understand it to start with. You need the context, you need sound Arabic, you need sound mind, you need the understanding of the one who conveyed the Message itself to you.

The Qur'an sets out the role of Messengers and Prophets (alayhis salaam) as teachers as well as conveyors of revelation. That is why there are Prophets at all. Clearly if all that was intended was a static book, then there would be no function for either. This is an illogical position, and contradicted by the Qur'an.

The Qur'an says:

2:129
"O our Sustainer! Raise up from the midst of our offspring
106an apostle from amongthemselves, who shall convey unto them Thy messages, and impart unto them revelation as well as wisdom, and cause them to grow in purity: for, verily, Thou alone art almighty, trulywise!"

(which shows that Allah does not confine the teaching of knowledge to revelation)
2:237-9
BE EVER mindful of prayers, and of praying in the most excellent way;
and stand beforeGod in devout obedience.
But if you are in danger, [pray] walking or riding;
andwhen you are again secure, bear God in mind - since it is He who taught you what you did not previously know.

(which shows that God taught people how to pray, something taught not through the Qur'an, but to Mohammed sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam and then to the people by God)

2:151
Even as We have sent unto you an apostle from among yourselves to convey unto you Our messages, and to cause you to grow in purity, and to impart unto you revelation and wisdom,
and to teach you that which you knew not:

(again, showing that the role of Prophethood is not merely dumb conveyance)

3:31-1
Say [O Prophet]: "If you love God, follow me, [and] God will love you and forgive you your sins; for God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace."
Say: "Pay heed unto God and the Apostle."

(this verse occurs in an exhortation to beware of the day of judgement, and is not a temporary command)




3:132-5
And pay heed unto God and the Apostle, so that you might be graced with mercy. And vie with one another to attain to your Sustainer's forgiveness and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for the God-conscious who spend [inHis way] in time of plenty and in time of hardship, and hold in check their anger, and pardon their fellow-men because God loves the doers of good; and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have [otherwise] sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever [wrong] they may have done.

(again, we see the two sources presented, if the Qur'an is all you need, why is the Qur'an telling you to pay heed to something else???)

3:164
Indeed, God bestowed a favour upon the believers when he raised up in their midst an apostlefrom among themselves, to convey His messages unto them, and to cause them to grow in purity, and to impart unto them the divine writ as well as wisdom - whereas before that theywere indeed, most obviously, lost in error

(I can go all day, the amount of verses that point to the Prophets being transmitters not merely of revelation but also of hikma, are everywhere, if the Qur'an is all the wisdom that exists, then why does it refer to hikma other than itself?)

I understand but the hadith aren't written by prophets. The Prophets are transmitters.

I will say that I probably wouldn't ignore hadith completely. I'd attempt to attain knowledge from them but the Quran is the most important book to me more than any other. It is a well known issue of the possibility of fabricated hadith that have been corrupted over time.
Last edited by Kad5; 05-18-2012 at 07:38 AM.
Sutton Dagger
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(05-18-2012, 08:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes1396

Depends if the God x=truth.

god X here changed the knife, and the sacrifice was never a sacrifice but a test.* Repeat experiment and the consequences will always be the same.

Of course if God z, says sacrifice your son, and a son is sacrificed, then that is different.



*Of course this is a story about a god and his messenger.

The outcome in this particular case is irrelevant to the broader context of adhering to apparent messages from God and carrying them out. How would one determine the validity of the source giving this type of command?

If you had a 'feeling' that God wanted you to sacrifice your son/mother/wife/whatever would you do it? Or would it take an audible command? How about a vision? In what context could killing a loved one ever be explained away as a commandment from God?
Tizoc
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(05-18-2012, 09:00 AM)
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Silly question, but will there be a Ramadhan thread?
...and refresh my memory is it allowed to do a 'Jamaa Taqseer' for prayers during Ramadhan? Say I'm visiting a neighbouring country during Ramadhan, I am allowed to 'merge' my prayers, can I merge at least the Afternoon+Sunset prayers?
For that matter, can I merge Sunset+Evening prayers during Ramadhan? If so how would I go about praying 'Taraweeh'?
Kad5
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(05-18-2012, 09:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

The outcome in this particular case is irrelevant to the broader context of adhering to apparent messages from God and carrying them out. How would one determine the validity of the source giving this type of command?

If you had a 'feeling' that God wanted you to sacrifice your son/mother/wife/whatever would you do it? Or would it take an audible command? How about a vision? In what context could killing a loved one ever be explained away as a commandment from God?

Well God wouldn't command something illogical. The story involving Abraham and his son was a test showing Abraham and his son's devotion to God.

Obviously at the end of the story God tells Abraham to not kill his son because he passed the test.

Also, you have to understand some of the background. Abraham was already a prophet of God for decades before this event so Abraham already had what he perceived as a definite connection with God.
Sutton Dagger
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(05-18-2012, 09:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

Well God wouldn't command something illogical. The story involving Abraham and his son was a test showing Abraham and his son's devotion to God.

Obviously at the end of the story God tells Abraham to not kill his son because he passed the test.

Also, you have to understand some of the background. Abraham was already a prophet of God for decades before this event so Abraham already had what he perceived as a definite connection with God.

As I said, this is all irrelevant in the broader context of following God's apparent commands. His perception of a connection to his God is precisely the issue here. The very idea that one would sacrifice a loved one based on feelings/perceived visions is utterly horrifying, thankfully the people who have performed such acts face the appropriate consequences.

Would you ever commit murder under the pretext of a command from 'God'?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
(05-18-2012, 09:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tizoc

Silly question, but will there be a Ramadhan thread?
...and refresh my memory is it allowed to do a 'Jamaa Taqseer' for prayers during Ramadhan?

I see no reason why it is forbidden, so long as the circumstances really require you to perform Jama prayers.

Say I'm visiting a neighbouring country during Ramadhan, I am allowed to 'merge' my prayers, can I merge at least the Afternoon+Sunset prayers?
For that matter, can I merge Sunset+Evening prayers during Ramadhan? If so how would I go about praying 'Taraweeh'?

As far as I am aware, the only ones allowed to be merged is Dzuhur/Ashar and Maghrib/Isya. If by chance, for example, you are unable to perform Ashar and Maghrib--like for example you are in the middle of traveling, just perform them as soon as you are able.

And the limit for Taraweeh is the same as Isya--which is to say, covers an entire night before the morning prayers or Subuh so you should have plenty of time if you want to do it (remember, it is not compulsory to do it although highly recommended.)
Ashes
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(05-18-2012, 01:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

The outcome in this particular case is irrelevant to the broader context of adhering to apparent messages from God and carrying them out. How would one determine the validity of the source giving this type of command?

If you had a 'feeling' that God wanted you to sacrifice your son/mother/wife/whatever would you do it? Or would it take an audible command? How about a vision? In what context could killing a loved one ever be explained away as a commandment from God?

so you dismiss the outcome, and set a different context. Did I not highlight the plausibility of this new context using God Z?

There are gods where human sacrifices were given to, children even. The Abrahamic god was not one of them.

Eid al-Adha is the celebration of the story.

Eid al-Adha' (Arabic: عيد الأضحى‎ Īd al-Aḍḥ, IPA:[ʕiːd al ʔadˁˈħaː], "feast of sacrifice") or "Festival of Sacrifice" or "Greater Eid" is an important religious holiday celebrated by Muslims worldwide to commemorate the willingness of Abraham (Ibrahim) to sacrifice his son Ishmael (Isma'il) as an act of obedience to God, before God intervened to provide him with a sheep to sacrifice instead.[1]

Muslims, who have the means to do so, sacrifice an animal in light of the story. They keep 1/3; give 1/3 to friends and relatives, and donate the rest to the poor.

I think it is a very a grave sin, if you believe, even one drop of the blood goes to Allah.
Last edited by Ashes; 05-18-2012 at 01:34 PM.
Ashes
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(05-18-2012, 01:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

As I said, this is all irrelevant in the broader context of following God's apparent commands. His perception of a connection to his God is precisely the issue here. The very idea that one would sacrifice a loved one based on feelings/perceived visions is utterly horrifying, thankfully the people who have performed such acts face the appropriate consequences.

Would you ever commit murder under the pretext of a command from 'God'?

That's the very point though. The point is that it is an extraordinary example of putting God X first. No Ordinary person would do this.

The person in the story is a prophet, and he knows god x to be true. And even he has a lot of trouble with the request. He asks his son and so forth. Etc, etc. And this is in the time where idolitary was the norm.

This is a rigged test, where the outcome is always the same - no harm comes to the child.

You want them to ponder what would happen if the child was to die, then the point of the story changes to a different one one.


Theoretically, it'd be one, where they said: Look, god asked him for his son as a sacrifice, and he did it.

Wait, a sec, he actually killed his son?

Yes. The point was to see if he would do it, and he did.

If the point was to merely test him, why did the child die? Isn't this an actual child sacrifice to god, like those given to the pagan gods?

Yes.

-----

Of course it turned out, that God X was only testing him, and this wasn't a child sacrifice. If you're still asking about the child sacrifice, you're asking about a different god, God Z.
Last edited by Ashes; 05-18-2012 at 02:07 PM.
Sutton Dagger
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(05-18-2012, 02:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes1396

so you dismiss the outcome, and set a different context. Did I not highlight the plausibility of this new context using God Z?

There are gods where human sacrifices were given to, children even. The Abrahamic god was not one of them.

Eid al-Adha is the celebration of the story.



Muslims, who have the means to do so, sacrifice an animal in light of the story. They keep 1/3; give 1/3 to friends and relatives, and donate the rest to the poor.

I think it is a very a grave sin, if you believe, even one drop of the blood goes to Allah.

Originally Posted by Ashes1396

That's the very point though. The point is that it is an extraordinary example of putting God X first. No Ordinary person would do this.

The person in the story is a prophet, and he knows god x to be true. And even he has a lot of trouble with the request. He asks his son and so forth. Etc, etc. And this is in the time where idolitary was the norm.

This is a rigged test, where the outcome is always the same - no harm comes to the child.

You want them to ponder what would happen if the child was to die, then the point of the story changes to a different one one.


Theoretically, it'd be one, where they said: Look, god asked him for his son as a sacrifice, and he did it.

Wait, a sec, he actually killed his son?

Yes. The point was to see if he would do it, and he did.

If the point was to merely test him, why did the child die? Isn't this an actual child sacrifice to god, like those given to the pagan gods?

Yes.

I'm aware that the story symbolizes the difference between human sacrifice for pagan traditions to the animal sacrifice of monotheism, but again the 'test' simply highlights the thought process of someone who is so sure of their beliefs that they are willing to kill for them. This isn't a hypothetical either, it happens and the original response I made was calling out someone who agreed they would kill if 'commanded' by Allah.
Ashes
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(05-18-2012, 02:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

I'm aware that the story symbolizes the difference between human sacrifice for pagan traditions to the animal sacrifice of monotheism, but again the 'test' simply highlights the thought process of someone who is so sure of their beliefs that they are willing to kill for them. This isn't a hypothetical either, it happens and the original response I made was calling out someone who agreed they would kill if 'commanded' by Allah.

I see. I wouldn't kill for the body politic.

Would one kill for their country? Many do on a daily basis.

But to explore the question of what this story is. You said, the test 'simply' highlights the thought process of someone who is so sure of their beliefs, they are willing to kill for them.

It isn't though. Belief, I mean. The presumption is that God x is truth. God x knows what is what. This a god worth trusting as it turns out.

You can't explore it as a 'belief', because the outcome depends on the god's intervention. If we had a dream that god Z spoke to us, it would be but a dream, we aren't the prophet, and the god Z, isn't god God X, and the child would die. The experiment becomes fundamentally different.

In this way, perhaps it is more akin to say a Milgram experiment where the test isn't real, nobody actually died on the other side. Though, in that case, it says something about individuals taking orders.

I suppose if someone is saying they will kill for god, they might equate that as being the right thing to do. And the justification for the killing, then is based on the righteousness of the task, rather than a statement of belief.

There is also the factor of mental illness. If one is talking to god, and god is answering back, they aren't Muslim (Muhammed was the last prophet), they are mentally ill. < At least, it ought to be, from a Muslim perspective.
Raist
Banned
(05-18-2012, 02:43 PM)

Originally Posted by Ashes1396

I see. I wouldn't kill for the body politic.

Would one kill for their country? Many do on a daily basis.

But to explore the question of what this story is. You said, the test 'simply' highlights the thought process of someone who is so sure of their beliefs, they are willing to kill for them.

It isn't though. Belief, I mean. The presumption is that God x is truth. God x knows what is what. This a god worth trusting as it turns out.

You can't explore it as a 'belief', because the outcome depends on the god's intervention. If we had a dream that god Z spoke to us, it would be but a dream, we aren't the prophet, and the god Z, isn't god God X, and the child would die. The experiment becomes fundamentally different.

In this way, perhaps it is more akin to say a Milgram experiment where the test isn't real, nobody actually died on the other side. Though, in that case, it says something about individuals taking orders.

I suppose if someone is saying they will kill for god, they might equate that as being the right thing to do. And the justification for the killing, then is based on the righteousness of the task, rather than a statement of belief.

There is also the factor of mental illness. If one is talking to god, and god is answering back, they aren't Muslim (Muhammed was the last prophet), they are mentally ill. < At least, it ought to be, from a Muslim perspective.

You're dancing around the argument while the question is pretty simple.
If tomorrow your god asks you to kill your child to prove your faith, would you do it.
There was such an answer to this question, which is why Sutton got horrified.

As far as I'm concerned, the only possible answer is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO129-RfhVE
And I don't even have kids and don't plan of having one anytime soon.
Azih
Member
(05-18-2012, 02:48 PM)

Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

(I can go all day, the amount of verses that point to the Prophets being transmitters not merely of revelation but also of hikma, are everywhere,

I would never disagree with the suggestion that the prophets were role models and guides for their people when they were leading them.

But they are not leading us now. We do not have the hikma of the prophet we have the opinions of those who came after him the BEST of whom were struggling to guess what his hikma would have been while they were plenty who were putting their words into his mouth to justify their own opinions or for their own benefit. Good lord, the hadith came through some of the most tumultuous and unsettled times of early Islamic history. A history that saw the third Caliph die in a revolt against his rule, the fourth Caliph, the nephew of the prophet, engaging in a full on civil war with the family of the third Caliph and the last wife of the prophet and then being assassinated by a RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST who thought the fourth Caliph was not following the hikma of the prophet closely enough (where were the hadith during all of this?) and the aftermath of the assassination included the family of one of the grandsons of the prophet being massacred and the fourth Caliph being regularly cursed by Imams during prayers in order to solidify the claims of the new born Ummayyad dynasty.

The Prophet guided his people when he was alive, the history of what happened after his death shows that sadly that guidance ended at that point.

Edit:

If tomorrow your god asks you to kill your child to prove your faith, would you do it.

Well if God asked me to kill my son, then that would make me a prophet (one who God talks to directly) and it's pretty standard Islamic belief that The Prophet Muhammad was the last of the Prophets. So the situation wouldn't really arise at all in most Islamic schools of thought.
Last edited by Azih; 05-18-2012 at 02:52 PM.
Ashes
Member
(05-18-2012, 02:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

You're dancing around the argument while the question is pretty simple.
If tomorrow your god asks you to kill your child to prove your faith, would you do it.
There was such an answer to this question, which is why Sutton got horrified.

As far as I'm concerned, the only possible answer is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO129-RfhVE
And I don't even have kids and don't plan of having one anytime soon.

And yet I'm willing to return and explore the source, again and again, rather than stoutly propose an ultimatum. And I doubt I have said anything that isn't simple.
Last edited by Ashes; 05-18-2012 at 02:53 PM.
Sutton Dagger
Member
(05-18-2012, 03:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Azih


Edit: Well if God asked me to kill my son, then that would make me a prophet (one who God talks to directly) and it's pretty standard Islamic belief that The Prophet Muhammad was the last of the Prophets. So the situation wouldn't really arise at all in most Islamic schools of thought.

So I was correct in calling out the poster who made the claim that they would kill their child, in two respects no less. First for being morally bankrupt and second for being theologically ignorant. I'm wondering why there were questions raised about my refutation of his statements?
Ashes
Member
(05-18-2012, 03:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

So I was correct in calling out the poster who made the claim that they would kill their child, in two respects no less. First for being morally bankrupt and second for being theologically ignorant. I'm wondering why there were questions raised about my refutation of his statements?

I didn't see your refutation. I was setting the context.

Never mind. I'll just be repeating my self. And we're agreeing more than disagreeing anyhow.
Sutton Dagger
Member
(05-18-2012, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes1396

I see. I wouldn't kill for the body politic.

Would one kill for their country? Many do on a daily basis.

But to explore the question of what this story is. You said, the test 'simply' highlights the thought process of someone who is so sure of their beliefs, they are willing to kill for them.

It isn't though. Belief, I mean. The presumption is that God x is truth. God x knows what is what. This a god worth trusting as it turns out.

You can't explore it as a 'belief', because the outcome depends on the god's intervention. If we had a dream that god Z spoke to us, it would be but a dream, we aren't the prophet, and the god Z, isn't god God X, and the child would die. The experiment becomes fundamentally different.

In this way, perhaps it is more akin to say a Milgram experiment where the test isn't real, nobody actually died on the other side. Though, in that case, it says something about individuals taking orders.

I suppose if someone is saying they will kill for god, they might equate that as being the right thing to do. And the justification for the killing, then is based on the righteousness of the task, rather than a statement of belief.

There is also the factor of mental illness. If one is talking to god, and god is answering back, they aren't Muslim (Muhammed was the last prophet), they are mentally ill. < At least, it ought to be, from a Muslim perspective.

Is your description not belief? They have made a presumption that God x is true, would they being doing this killing if they didn't believe it to be true? I would hope that someone who talks to God and hears an audible command would interpret that as a sign of mental illness, the poster I was responding to was fairly blatant about the course of action he would take though.
Ashes
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(05-18-2012, 03:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger


Is your description not belief? They have made a presumption that God x is true, would they being doing this killing if they didn't believe it to be true? I would hope that someone who talks to God and hears an audible command would interpret that as a sign of mental illness, the poster I was responding to was fairly blatant about the course of action he would take though.

huh? I thought I dealt with that? In the very next paragraph as well.

Instead of going fifty rounds, I thought I'd summarise essays to fill out possible arguments, in as few posts as possible.

Could you please clarify the point?
Sutton Dagger
Member
(05-18-2012, 03:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes1396

huh? I thought I dealt with that? In the very next paragraph as well.

Instead of going fifty rounds, I thought I'd summarise essays to fill out possible arguments, in as few posts as possible.

Could you please clarify the point?

The whole point was based around the comment made earlier that a faithful muslim would follow any command given by Allah, including killing ones own children. I called him out on both the ridiculousness of adhering to the perceived command and how he is determining the validity of the command. Other posters were then surprised/confused that I was questioning his statements. You then clarified that the very act of receiving the command would exclude your God from having given it, as one who receives direct commands is considered a prophet, and that can't be given your theology. Was I not right in questioning that posters claims?
phosphor112
Banned
(05-18-2012, 03:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Laughing Banana

I see no reason why it is forbidden, so long as the circumstances really require you to perform Jama prayers.



As far as I am aware, the only ones allowed to be merged is Dzuhur/Ashar and Maghrib/Isya. If by chance, for example, you are unable to perform Ashar and Maghrib--like for example you are in the middle of traveling, just perform them as soon as you are able.

And the limit for Taraweeh is the same as Isya--which is to say, covers an entire night before the morning prayers or Subuh so you should have plenty of time if you want to do it (remember, it is not compulsory to do it although highly recommended.)

Word, it depends how long the stay is or if the traveling is actually happening. I'm pretty sure (99%) that according to both Sunni and Shia rule that you CAN'T fast if you are traveling long distances (77km / ~48miles) and if your stay is shorter than 14 days. If the trip isn't mandatory, then it's better to fast during the month.
Ashes
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(05-18-2012, 03:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

The whole point was based around the comment made earlier that a faithful muslim would follow any command given by Allah, including killing ones own children. I called him out on both the ridiculousness of adhering to the perceived command and how he is determining the validity of the command. Other posters were then surprised/confused that I was questioning his statements. You then clarified that the very act of receiving the command would exclude your God from having given it, as one who receives direct commands is considered a prophet, and that can't be given your theology. Was I not right in questioning that posters claims?

I see now. Fair enough.

He was espousing the sacrificial story for rhetorical effect.

I may not agree, with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it.

I doubt Voltaire stepped up to the plate, but the meaning was clear, provocative, and powerful.

Muslims put God on a pedestal above all things. I dealt with the literal act, the inherent consequences/motivations in the post mentioned as well.

Edit: the question I would ask viva in your position is, his reaction to an news article, say today, or yesterday, where a man killed his son, cause he believed god told him so. And then a second article, where the child died.

I don't even think the Saudi government would excuse the man.
Last edited by Ashes; 05-18-2012 at 03:55 PM.
Pollux
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(05-18-2012, 03:54 PM)
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OttomanScribe, where you tryin to say that in order to understand the Quran someone MUST have a good understand of Arabic? That the Quran in another language doesn't convey the message "as it was meant to be conveyed"?
phosphor112
Banned
(05-18-2012, 04:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by zmoney

OttomanScribe, where you tryin to say that in order to understand the Quran someone MUST have a good understand of Arabic? That the Quran in another language doesn't convey the message "as it was meant to be conveyed"?

Translations never give the full meaning of the scripts. Just as it does for the Bible. It's the reason why there are so many translations. People try to come up with the "most true" message. Arabic is a very specific yet broad (much larger vocabulary) language than English ever will.

Also, you can't understand the Quran without the Prophet. It's not one or the other, the Prophet not only "revealed" the Quran to us, but he helped us understand it as well.
Meus Renaissance
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(05-18-2012, 04:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by zmoney

OttomanScribe, where you tryin to say that in order to understand the Quran someone MUST have a good understand of Arabic? That the Quran in another language doesn't convey the message "as it was meant to be conveyed"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz5BWFIUomw

"Take for example, Surah al-Fatiha..it's just 29 words in Arabic but anywhere between 65 to 72 words in translation. It seems the more you add, the more that seems to go missing...the Quran was meant to be heard, not read"
Last edited by Meus Renaissance; 05-18-2012 at 04:11 PM.
RustyNails
with arms wide open / under the sunlight / welcome to this place / i'll show you everythaaaang
(05-20-2012, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by zmoney

OttomanScribe, where you tryin to say that in order to understand the Quran someone MUST have a good understand of Arabic? That the Quran in another language doesn't convey the message "as it was meant to be conveyed"?

I guess pretty much every Muslim believes this. Besides losing the closest meaning of the words through translation, if you listen to the Quran for example, there's a poetic, rhyming quality to it in Arabic which is also lost.
OttomanScribe
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(05-22-2012, 10:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

I understand but the hadith aren't written by prophets. The Prophets are transmitters.

They are clearly more than transmitters, the Qur'an exhalts them as sources of knowledge independant to revelation and commands the believers to look to them for the resolution of disputes.


I will say that I probably wouldn't ignore hadith completely. I'd attempt to attain knowledge from them but the Quran is the most important book to me more than any other. It is a well known issue of the possibility of fabricated hadith that have been corrupted over time.

There are Hadith with the same level of transmission as the Qur'an, do you accept these as being as reliable as the Qur'an? If you accept Allah's garauntee of the sanctity of the Qur'an, why do you not accept his similar garauntee of the guard of its meaning (its meaning being conveyed through the Messenger of God sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

You do realise the implications of your belief don't you?

OttomanScribe, where you tryin to say that in order to understand the Quran someone MUST have a good understand of Arabic? That the Quran in another language doesn't convey the message "as it was meant to be conveyed"?

It depends what you mean by understand. The truth in the Qur'an can be conveyed in any language, however the miracle of the Qur'an and the Qur'an as a basis for law or theology is something that requires Arabic.


I would never disagree with the suggestion that the prophets were role models and guides for their people when they were leading them.

What gives you the impression that Allah's command was a temporary one? Where in the Qur'an does it say that the hikma and leadership of the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) somehow expired?

But they are not leading us now. We do not have the hikma of the prophet we have the opinions of those who came after him the BEST of whom were struggling to guess what his hikma would have been while they were plenty who were putting their words into his mouth to justify their own opinions or for their own benefit. Good lord, the hadith came through some of the most tumultuous and unsettled times of early Islamic history. A history that saw the third Caliph die in a revolt against his rule, the fourth Caliph, the nephew of the prophet, engaging in a full on civil war with the family of the third Caliph and the last wife of the prophet and then being assassinated by a RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST who thought the fourth Caliph was not following the hikma of the prophet closely enough (where were the hadith during all of this?) and the aftermath of the assassination included the family of one of the grandsons of the prophet being massacred and the fourth Caliph being regularly cursed by Imams during prayers in order to solidify the claims of the new born Ummayyad dynasty.

What makes you think that a reference to political turmoil undermines the integrity of anything? Some of the greatest times of conflict were the greatest for the creation and preservation of accounts.

The Prophet guided his people when he was alive, the history of what happened after his death shows that sadly that guidance ended at that point.

The conflict amongst the early Muslim community was something of their conflicting ijtihad, and isn't related to a loss of guidance. If people truly believe that the Qur'an is a perfect book, then why on earth would it include a bunch of obsolete references?

Sutton Dagger.

I think we need more counterfactuals.
Tizoc
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(07-10-2012, 06:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Laughing Banana

I see no reason why it is forbidden, so long as the circumstances really require you to perform Jama prayers.



As far as I am aware, the only ones allowed to be merged is Dzuhur/Ashar and Maghrib/Isya. If by chance, for example, you are unable to perform Ashar and Maghrib--like for example you are in the middle of traveling, just perform them as soon as you are able.

And the limit for Taraweeh is the same as Isya--which is to say, covers an entire night before the morning prayers or Subuh so you should have plenty of time if you want to do it (remember, it is not compulsory to do it although highly recommended.)

Sorry for the late reply but thanks for clearing it up. So in case of the Evening prayer, I could pray it at say 1 AM and it'd be OK?

Also, I've been wondering about something, but please do excuse my wording as I'm trying to write this as best and comprehensible as I can.
I understand that consuming alcohol is taboo, however from what I've understood what is bad for one's health, state of mind and body is taboo, and anything that doesn't harm one is 'halal'.
As such, would using alcoholic drinks such as wine etc. for the purpose of cooking, is it allowed?
cousins
Member
(07-10-2012, 06:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tizoc

Sorry for the late reply but thanks for clearing it up. So in case of the Evening prayer, I could pray it at say 1 AM and it'd be OK?

Also, I've been wondering about something, but please do excuse my wording as I'm trying to write this as best and comprehensible as I can.
I understand that consuming alcohol is taboo, however from what I've understood what is bad for one's health, state of mind and body is taboo, and anything that doesn't harm one is 'halal'.
As such, would using alcoholic drinks such as wine etc. for the purpose of cooking, is it allowed?

You cook off the alcohol when using wine, I'm not muslim, but I'm not sure why this would be a problem.
phosphor112
Banned
(07-10-2012, 07:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tizoc

Sorry for the late reply but thanks for clearing it up. So in case of the Evening prayer, I could pray it at say 1 AM and it'd be OK?

It should be done before "midnight" not 12am, but the literal middle of the night.
Anyway, after midnight prayer there is Qiyaam al-Layl (the night prayer). It's not mandatory, but it's highly recommended. The time for that prayer is from "midnight" (which is usually when the night is darkest) until just before dawn.

At dawn, morning prayer starts... until sunrise.

Also, I've been wondering about something, but please do excuse my wording as I'm trying to write this as best and comprehensible as I can.
I understand that consuming alcohol is taboo, however from what I've understood what is bad for one's health, state of mind and body is taboo, and anything that doesn't harm one is 'halal'.
As such, would using alcoholic drinks such as wine etc. for the purpose of cooking, is it allowed?

According to majority of scholars, any intentional consumption, purchasing, or handling of alcohol is not only taboo, but strictly not allowed. This pretty much covers your situation. The existence of the alcohol in your presence is forbidden.

If you don't know that something was cooked with wine etc. You're fine. Playing dumb doesn't count though lol. As cousins stated above, alcohol doesn't completely break down while cooking. Vinegar is allowed because it goes through a full chemical change. Something "Haram" becomes "Halal."

This "change" can be included in things like gelatin. It often comes from pig (or non-halal animal marrow) but SOME scholars say because it goes through a chemical change (it being cooked), completely changing the compound, it becomes Halal. Not all scholars agree though.

Sorry if I rambled on too much.

EDIT: Added more info.
Last edited by phosphor112; 07-10-2012 at 07:06 AM.
Kad5
Member
(07-10-2012, 07:13 AM)
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I was talking to this girl about the stoning of the woman in Afghanistan and she unfortunately said that Islam is to blame for abuses of women in these societies. I tried to explain to her that it was culture combined with radicalized war mentality but she chose to simply say "lets agree to disagree".

Such shame....

In other news i've come to the conclusion that the idea of devotion to God is supposed to stop conflicts ideally.

Instead of worshipping an ideology or immaterial things the focus is on a universal concept that everything can relate to.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
(07-10-2012, 07:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

In other news i've come to the conclusion that the idea of devotion to God is supposed to stop conflicts ideally.

Instead of worshipping an ideology or immaterial things the focus is on a universal concept that everything can relate to.

Non-muslim here.

IMO there have been societies that tried to build peace amongst differing understandings of the world, bringing their differing perspectives on God together so that they could co-exist.

The prophet decried this as idolotry. He smashed the idols in the kaaba that had been brought together to unify people.

Islam is one of the least universalist religions on earth. It demands exclusivity. Its the reason why it's the only religion to forge divisions in places like India, which was usually accommodating to all differing manners of religion.

I'm not even trying to be critical of Islam, per se, but I am saying that the idea of "Allah is a universal concept for everyone" is itself an exclusivist concept that not everyone will be able to get on board with.
Last edited by BocoDragon; 07-10-2012 at 07:24 AM.

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