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Kisaya
Member
(01-15-2012, 08:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

If you don't know, you are probably Hanafi lol. What is your cultural background?

My parents are from Yemen ;o To be honest I've never heard about madhabs until recently...
Ashes
Member
(01-15-2012, 08:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by kisaya

My parents are from Yemen ;o To be honest I've never heard about madhabs until recently...

I used to know a yemeni muslim. Shafi? but that's a blind guess. I don't know how old you are, but perhaps you are now old enough now to decide for your self.
OttomanScribe
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(01-15-2012, 08:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by kisaya

My parents are from Yemen ;o To be honest I've never heard about madhabs until recently...

Word? You're probably Shafi'i then. :)

Which means that while you lose wudu if you touch men and can't have vinegar without taking a dispensation, your married life will be less taxing (assuming you want to get married) as you can demand your husband pays for any domestic work you do. I think also your feet count as awrah. Of course there are a few more differences than that but I am not familiar with women's fiqh to say.

You probably follow the madhab of some of the greatest scholars of our community, including Imam Nawawi and Imam Al-Ghazzali, Imam Bukhari and Imam Tirmidhi, Ibn Kathir and Abu-Hasan al-Ashari, Saleh'Uddin al-Ayyubi and, our contemporary from Yemen; Habib Umar bin Hafiz. The Abbasids and Ayyubids, along with the Mamluk Sultanate were all Shafiyya.

Shafi'i madhab is awesome. Not to deride the other madhabs or my subcontinental brothers here :P
OttomanScribe
Member
(01-15-2012, 08:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Codeblue

I'd defintely appreciate some links to that if you have the time. The chemist in me can't resist.

The reason I'm interested is because the line is not drawn at ethanol. Alcohols by chemical definition encompass a huge range of compounds, so I'm mostly interested in seeing where the line is drawn.

Sure thing, when I get home after my night shift, I'll see what I can dig up.
Kisaya
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(01-15-2012, 09:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

Word? You're probably Shafi'i then. :)

Which means that while you lose wudu if you touch men and can't have vinegar without taking a dispensation, your married life will be less taxing (assuming you want to get married) as you can demand your husband pays for any domestic work you do. I think also your feet count as awrah. Of course there are a few more differences than that but I am not familiar with women's fiqh to say.

You probably follow the madhab of some of the greatest scholars of our community, including Imam Nawawi and Imam Al-Ghazzali, Imam Bukhari and Imam Tirmidhi, Ibn Kathir and Abu-Hasan al-Ashari, Saleh'Uddin al-Ayyubi and, our contemporary from Yemen; Habib Umar bin Hafiz. The Abbasids and Ayyubids, along with the Mamluk Sultanate were all Shafiyya.

Shafi'i madhab is awesome. Not to deride the other madhabs or my subcontinental brothers here :P

Oooh I see. The losing wudu if you touch a man sounds familiar, but then again my mom is really iffy regardless if I touch men XD I'll check with my parents just in case though. This is interesting though, definitely something I'm going to research more about :)
Last edited by Kisaya; 01-15-2012 at 09:06 AM.
OttomanScribe
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(01-15-2012, 09:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by kisaya

Oooh I see. The losing wudu if you touch a man sounds familiar, but then again my mom is really iffy regardless if I touch men XD I'll check with my parents just in case though. This is interesting though, definitely something I'm going to research more about :)

Haha.. Yeah it's more of an issue once you are married. If you want to find out more or have any specific questions, I have quite a few books of Shafi'i fiqh from which I could copy answers. Also SunniPath has a specific Shafi'i section. Probably the most prominent English speaking Shafi'i scholar I know of is Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller.
OttomanScribe
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(01-15-2012, 09:51 AM)
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Also something of note, there are some vinegars which are made through a process that does not turn them into wine. The ruling is not the same for them :)
Kisaya
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(01-15-2012, 08:33 PM)
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So I asked my dad and he gave me this long lecture about madhabs and such lol. He kept going on how we don't really rely on them as much and just focus on whatever the Quran and Sharia says. Eventually he said that we are Shafi'i XD because "it's the closest one that follows the teachings of the prophet."
OttomanScribe
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(01-16-2012, 02:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by kisaya

So I asked my dad and he gave me this long lecture about madhabs and such lol. He kept going on how we don't really rely on them as much and just focus on whatever the Quran and Sharia says. Eventually he said that we are Shafi'i XD because "it's the closest one that follows the teachings of the prophet."

The Qur'an and the 'Sharia'? :S

Yeah, that is a common attitude these days. Unfortunately. The thing about madhabs is that they each are a system of approach to Islamic law. In this sense, to pick and choose all the time is saying that one approach is logical one time (when you agree with the answer it gives you) but another approach is logical another time (when you agree with the answer it gives you on a different issue).

Just defending them. Most people don't think about these things or need to.
XtremeRampage
Junior Member
(01-16-2012, 05:13 AM)
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I have questions for Islam-GAF relating to Israel, I have previously heard lectures and discussion from many "advanced Muslims" regarding this subject but still unclear (mostly condemning the occupation of Palestine and so-on).

1. What are your thoughts about the existence of the state of Israel? Is it true that Islam forbid (haram) a Jewish state to exist? That the existence of it indicate the decline of Muslim world? I heard and read lots of Muslims (public discussion, online message board, television/videos) saying that the existence of Israel symbolize "the end of the world", and sometimes a lot of anti-Jewish messages were also thrown when the topic of Israel was brought up.

2. Is trading/buying and using Israeli made products forbidden for Muslim? I've heard that because currently Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, buying Israeli products will benefit and give them money "to continue killing Muslim Palestinians" and therefore forbidden (haram).

The reasons I asked these questions are because of what I saw some Muslim's perspective forbidding its existence and I also think the questions are not so much politic since it also affect people's daily life.
Kisaya
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(01-16-2012, 06:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

The Qur'an and the 'Sharia'? :S

Yeah, that is a common attitude these days. Unfortunately. The thing about madhabs is that they each are a system of approach to Islamic law. In this sense, to pick and choose all the time is saying that one approach is logical one time (when you agree with the answer it gives you) but another approach is logical another time (when you agree with the answer it gives you on a different issue).

Just defending them. Most people don't think about these things or need to.

Yeah I don't know what he meant by sharia DX He just brought it up while he was rambling. And yeah, I think he feels that they're good to have but feels that it isn't necessary to follow them so strictly.
Is it possible to follow more than one madhab based on whether you feel one approach is more logical than another?

Originally Posted by XtremeRampage

I have questions for Islam-GAF relating to Israel, I have previously heard lectures and discussion from many "advanced Muslims" regarding this subject but still unclear (mostly condemning the occupation of Palestine and so-on).

1. What are your thoughts about the existence of the state of Israel? Is it true that Islam forbid (haram) a Jewish state to exist? That the existence of it indicate the decline of Muslim world? I heard and read lots of Muslims (public discussion, online message board, television/videos) saying that the existence of Israel symbolize "the end of the world", and sometimes a lot of anti-Jewish messages were also thrown when the topic of Israel was brought up.

2. Is trading/buying and using Israeli made products forbidden for Muslim? I've heard that because currently Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, buying Israeli products will benefit and give them money "to continue killing Muslim Palestinians" and therefore forbidden (haram).

The reasons I asked these questions are because of what I saw some Muslim's perspective forbidding its existence and I also think the questions are not so much politic since it also affect people's daily life.

I can't really give you a clear answer, but as for me I'm all for coexistence in Israel ;x I'm not really fond of it being called a "Jewish state" nor a(n) "Arab/Muslim state."
When I went to visit Yemen they definitely do follow the Israeli boycott pretty strictly. They never referred it to being haram though ;p
Last edited by Kisaya; 01-16-2012 at 06:47 AM.
OttomanScribe
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(01-16-2012, 07:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by XtremeRampage

I have questions for Islam-GAF relating to Israel, I have previously heard lectures and discussion from many "advanced Muslims" regarding this subject but still unclear (mostly condemning the occupation of Palestine and so-on).

1. What are your thoughts about the existence of the state of Israel? Is it true that Islam forbid (haram) a Jewish state to exist? That the existence of it indicate the decline of Muslim world? I heard and read lots of Muslims (public discussion, online message board, television/videos) saying that the existence of Israel symbolize "the end of the world", and sometimes a lot of anti-Jewish messages were also thrown when the topic of Israel was brought up.

2. Is trading/buying and using Israeli made products forbidden for Muslim? I've heard that because currently Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, buying Israeli products will benefit and give them money "to continue killing Muslim Palestinians" and therefore forbidden (haram).

The reasons I asked these questions are because of what I saw some Muslim's perspective forbidding its existence and I also think the questions are not so much politic since it also affect people's daily life.

Functionally to describe a Jewish state as being 'haraam' is a very strange way to put it. There is certainly a popular Muslim objection to the state of Israel, due both to it entailing non-Muslim control of Al-Quds (Jerusalem) as well as the treatment of the Palestinians. I have heard people say that it is a sign of the end of days but they haven't really presented much concrete in support of this.

As to the other question I do think it is political, as those kind of questions aren't particularly the province of the Sha'riah.
OttomanScribe
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(01-16-2012, 07:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by kisaya

Yeah I don't know what he meant by sharia DX He just brought it up while he was rambling. And yeah, I think he feels that they're good to have but feels that it isn't necessary to follow them so strictly.
Is it possible to follow more than one madhab based on whether you feel one approach is more logical than another?

The different madhabs have different approaches to the law. Thus one cannot really pick and choose (though taking a dispensation from another madhab on a difficult issue is viewed by many as okay) on different issues, as then on is saying that one method is logical one time, and a different method is logical another time. Know what I mean?

Madhab is about method, not different rulings at the end of the day.
noobie
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(01-16-2012, 10:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by XtremeRampage

I have questions for Islam-GAF relating to Israel, I have previously heard lectures and discussion from many "advanced Muslims" regarding this subject but still unclear (mostly condemning the occupation of Palestine and so-on).

1. What are your thoughts about the existence of the state of Israel? Is it true that Islam forbid (haram) a Jewish state to exist? That the existence of it indicate the decline of Muslim world? I heard and read lots of Muslims (public discussion, online message board, television/videos) saying that the existence of Israel symbolize "the end of the world", and sometimes a lot of anti-Jewish messages were also thrown when the topic of Israel was brought up.

2. Is trading/buying and using Israeli made products forbidden for Muslim? I've heard that because currently Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, buying Israeli products will benefit and give them money "to continue killing Muslim Palestinians" and therefore forbidden (haram).

The reasons I asked these questions are because of what I saw some Muslim's perspective forbidding its existence and I also think the questions are not so much politic since it also affect people's daily life.

1. Its not haram, the issue is the way the Israeli State has been created and the killing of the Palestinians.
2. Refer to Answer 1. :) You already have answer if you leave the last part.
"Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, buying Israeli products will benefit and give them money "to continue killing Muslim Palestinians" and the"
noobie
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(01-16-2012, 10:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

The Qur'an and the 'Sharia'? :S

Yeah, that is a common attitude these days. Unfortunately. The thing about madhabs is that they each are a system of approach to Islamic law. In this sense, to pick and choose all the time is saying that one approach is logical one time (when you agree with the answer it gives you) but another approach is logical another time (when you agree with the answer it gives you on a different issue).

Just defending them. Most people don't think about these things or need to.

Althought in my humble opinion you have summed it pretty nicely. But i will just like to rephrase it how i feel . That these top class scholars just thought based on their reason and logic that certain approach is more rewarding (correct word in arabic would be "afzal" ) than the other way.
So that is the reason these madhabs came into existence.

I am not a scholar, so i will not be held responsible for these views if you dont find them right. :)
F#A#Oo
Banned
(01-16-2012, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

The different madhabs have different approaches to the law. Thus one cannot really pick and choose (though taking a dispensation from another madhab on a difficult issue is viewed by many as okay) on different issues, as then on is saying that one method is logical one time, and a different method is logical another time. Know what I mean?

Madhab is about method, not different rulings at the end of the day.

Hmm...as well known Shafi'i's become Hanafi during hajj with regards to touching women...otherwise one would have to do wudu every few minutes...

There is always an element of using logic and common sense. We are ordered to do so. Personally I feel madh'habs has brought a lot divisive and confusing elements to the deen...making something simple into something that complicates for no reason at all. Having studied the different madh'habs I really can't say one has a superior and more logical and faithful interpretation of fiqh.

I think the key thing is that people feel they need something binding just because the doctrine of Islam is binding...so they seek that same level of binding elsewhere...but really we're slowly making up ways to cause differences amongst us...

Soon enough we'll get to the predicted 73 divisions...
Zapages
Junior Member
(01-16-2012, 11:00 PM)
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I am one of those folks who want a simple wedding, but dang some of these wedding videos have some crazy production value...

Indonesian:-looks like a movie and has great production value: http://vimeo.com/34367816

Pakistani/Indian? American/British? -Muslim: http://vimeo.com/24181494

Pakistani/Indian? American/British?: http://vimeo.com/18982286

Courtesy of another Islamic board that I visit... Talking about how wedding movies are becoming more movie like. lol
Kisaya
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(01-17-2012, 07:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zapages

I am one of those folks who want a simple wedding, but dang some of these wedding videos have some crazy production value...

Indonesian:-looks like a movie and has great production value: http://vimeo.com/34367816

Pakistani/Indian? American/British? -Muslim: http://vimeo.com/24181494

Pakistani/Indian? American/British?: http://vimeo.com/18982286

Courtesy of another Islamic board that I visit... Talking about how wedding movies are becoming more movie like. lol

Aw I sorta want to do this... But I don't know, usually wedding videos are such a hassle from what I've seen =_=
OttomanScribe
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(01-17-2012, 11:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by noobie

Althought in my humble opinion you have summed it pretty nicely. But i will just like to rephrase it how i feel . That these top class scholars just thought based on their reason and logic that certain approach is more rewarding (correct word in arabic would be "afzal" ) than the other way.
So that is the reason these madhabs came into existence.

I am not a scholar, so i will not be held responsible for these views if you dont find them right. :)

I'd pay that. I don't think the madhabs deride each other, which could be implied by the 'more logical' comment. It is however important to note that each madhab represents a different approach to the law, they are distinct.

Hmm...as well known Shafi'i's become Hanafi during hajj with regards to touching women...otherwise one would have to do wudu every few minutes...

They don't really 'become Hanafi' lol. They take a rukhsa on that one issue.

There is always an element of using logic and common sense.

Surely this implies within it consistency? For example, using 'logic and common sense' would involve a methodology, rather than choosing from various pre-existing rulings regardless of the way they were reached.

Personally I feel madh'habs has brought a lot divisive and confusing elements to the deen...making something simple into something that complicates for no reason at all.

The madhabs have given us the deen, they are the way in which the Sha'riah reaches the vast majority of Muslims. What specifically do you mean by 'making something simple that complicates'? Surely a systematic approach to the law is part of the logic that you referred to previously?

What is the alternative? That every individual is their own Sheikh? Regardless of how ignorant?

Having studied the different madh'habs I really can't say one has a superior and more logical and faithful interpretation of fiqh.

Surely you can however see the logic in following one fairly exclusively, considering that each has a distinct approach? If one follows Hanbali fiqh, rejecting Qiyas almost entirely, then one cannot then turn around and act as though taking Hanafi rulings willy-nilly is okay, surely?

The other option is not clear to me.
OttomanScribe
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(01-17-2012, 11:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zapages

I am one of those folks who want a simple wedding, but dang some of these wedding videos have some crazy production value...

Indonesian:-looks like a movie and has great production value: http://vimeo.com/34367816

Pakistani/Indian? American/British? -Muslim: http://vimeo.com/24181494

Pakistani/Indian? American/British?: http://vimeo.com/18982286

Courtesy of another Islamic board that I visit... Talking about how wedding movies are becoming more movie like. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLV3bGnpU2Q

This is mine :)

Was really fun to do. Though some of the jokes are hard to get without knowing the story behind them.
F#A#Oo
Banned
(01-19-2012, 12:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

They don't really 'become Hanafi' lol. They take a rukhsa on that one issue.

lol I was quoting Bilal Philips in jest...he famously said that with regards to Shafi'i's during Hajj.

Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

Surely this implies within it consistency? For example, using 'logic and common sense' would involve a methodology, rather than choosing from various pre-existing rulings regardless of the way they were reached.

What I mean't is that it's not really realistic to expect a Shafi'i to keep to the ruling during Hajj...thus common sense and logic prevails when faced with the prospect of potentially having to do wudu every 5 minutes.

Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

The madhabs have given us the deen, they are the way in which the Sha'riah reaches the vast majority of Muslims. What specifically do you mean by 'making something simple that complicates'? Surely a systematic approach to the law is part of the logic that you referred to previously?

The deen already existed through Ali ibn Abu Talib, Umar bin al-Khattab, Abu Bakr as-Siddeeq, Zayd bin Thabit etc etc...these were the most prominent 'scholars' among the Sahabah from whom the masses of people sought fatwas...

What I mean by simple>complicated; is that the formalisation of schools complicated matters in terms of how we would synthetize information. Before one just asked out of necessity of specific issues...it was purely ask and you shall receive in transmission and specific in nature...

The introduction of school forced certain rulings upon people who may or may not have ever even needed certain rulings in their life time and narrowed the definitions and meanings to the issues. A hadith very often could entertain two or more meanings, thus one Imam would prefer one meaning and pass a ruling on it, while another would prefer another meaning and do the same.

Choosing a school therefore became a necessity and a burden for us the believer and students of knowledge to take recourse in one of these Imam's schools and Taqleed along with explicit texts regarding the problems and events that befall us. Recourse must be had with them specifically regarding all matters of fiqh and to that specific school alone. You pick one and stick with it till we return to Allah. For me that's complication...

Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

What is the alternative? That every individual is their own Sheikh? Regardless of how ignorant.

No ofcourse not...lol

Every human being is burdened with the moral responsibility to obey Allah, but not having attained the status of being able to know the Shari'ah, on his own, is necessarily required to get that knowledge from someone else therefore we must ask at that time about those things which one does not know until one has knowledge of them, just as Allah, Glory be to Him, has said, 'Then ask the people of Remembrance if you do not know.' (Holy Qur'an 16:43)

Originally Posted by OttomanScribe

Surely you can however see the logic in following one fairly exclusively, considering that each has a distinct approach? If one follows Hanbali fiqh, rejecting Qiyas almost entirely, then one cannot then turn around and act as though taking Hanafi rulings willy-nilly is okay, surely?

At this moment me personally...I'm not attached to any one school...my sheikhs are from different schools...one is Shafi'i (an alim) and the other is Hanafi...they both came to their school through teachings and family background rather than through choice...

I have taken alot of my practices from the Hanafi and Shafi'i...obviously because of my teachers and their influence on me...natural tranmission of knowledge etc etc.

Now you might say I'm just following my naf's at this point but I have always kept 2 ayat very close to my heart to remind me not to deviate...

Originally Posted by Qur'an 3:103

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

Originally Posted by Qur'an 6:159

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

So with those two in mind I don't see how schools are not divisive...I only call myself a muslim...I don't even refer to myself as sunni unless forced to...
Last edited by F#A#Oo; 01-19-2012 at 12:31 AM.
crazy monkey
holds a masters in liberal arts
(01-19-2012, 12:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by F#A#Oo



I only call myself a muslim...I don't even refer to myself as sunni unless forced to...

same with me.
Darackutny
Junior Member
(01-20-2012, 11:17 AM)
I haven't really studied fiqh enough to favour one a mathhab over the other. However, the simple fact that so many of the major hadithists were Shafi'ees does appeal to me.

When I was a teenager, I asked my dad what he was. He said he was a Shafi'ee, even though he probably doesn't know anything about Al-Shafi'ee or his views.

Strangely enough, most Shafi'ees that I have came across do not know more than the famous line:

شكوت إلى وكيع سوء حفظي - فأرشدني إلى ترك المعاصي

I'd butcher it if I attempted to translate that, so I'll just leave it at that.
Meus Renaissance
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(01-29-2012, 02:20 AM)
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"The call to prayer happens five times a day, and for the first week, it drives you crazy, and then it just gets into your spirit, and it's the most beautiful, beautiful thing," he told The Sun. “There are 4000 mosques in the city. Some are just stunning, and it really makes me think about becoming a Muslim." Neeson was raised in Northern Ireland as a devout Roman Catholic and was named after the local priest. "I was reared a Catholic, but I think every day we ask ourselves, not consciously, what are we doing on this planet? What's it all about? I'm constantly reading books on God or the absence of God and atheism," he said.
Instigator
Banned
(01-29-2012, 02:55 AM)
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Let's hope he has less... superficial reasons for converting.
effingvic
Member
(01-29-2012, 03:10 AM)
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i usually dont find muslim comics to be funny but this guy is pretty good. probably even funnier if youre arab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFZ01...eature=related

edit: okay watched all 3 parts, this dude actually had me laughing beginning to end :D
Last edited by effingvic; 01-29-2012 at 03:39 AM.
Ashes
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(01-31-2012, 02:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Instigator

Let's hope he has less... superficial reasons for converting.

He said that in an interview he was doing for a film.

Edit: But the internet says, he talks to The Sun. I swear I read it in a Metro Interview.

Edit: The internet is wrong. It was a sixty second Metro interview.

http://www.metro.co.uk/film/888531-l...ecome-an-actor
Last edited by Ashes; 01-31-2012 at 02:25 PM.
phosphor112
Banned
(02-03-2012, 03:54 PM)
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Just wanted to say Salam brothers. Didn't know there was a thread about this.

B)

Anyone know a place to get an awesome aqeeq(agate) ring? My old one no longer fits... and not I'd rather not travel all the way to Dearborn, MI to get one.
RustyNails
with arms wide open / under the sunlight / welcome to this place / i'll show you everythaaaang
(02-03-2012, 03:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jason Raize '75 - '04



"The call to prayer happens five times a day, and for the first week, it drives you crazy, and then it just gets into your spirit, and it's the most beautiful, beautiful thing," he told The Sun. “There are 4000 mosques in the city. Some are just stunning, and it really makes me think about becoming a Muslim." Neeson was raised in Northern Ireland as a devout Roman Catholic and was named after the local priest. "I was reared a Catholic, but I think every day we ask ourselves, not consciously, what are we doing on this planet? What's it all about? I'm constantly reading books on God or the absence of God and atheism," he said.

Wow. This will be the most high profile convert probably since....Cat Stevens.
Kad5
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(02-25-2012, 03:14 AM)
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Hey guys I decided to say that I have thought about my philosophies and I realized that for most of my time of living i've essentially been living as a muslim.

I'm of Iranian descent but my family was never religious. I started reading the Quran and I realized that the concept of God in Islam is in line with my philosophy on Everything. The Quran is an amazing book.

It is the most meta-textual text in existence. This book is the most amazing thing in History. Surely this book is beyond human creation!

I've decided that i'll only pay attention to the Quran though. I don't like the hadith. I feel my own judgment on using the Quran is better.
Last edited by Kad5; 02-25-2012 at 03:21 AM.
noobie
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(02-25-2012, 08:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

Hey guys I decided to say that I have thought about my philosophies and I realized that for most of my time of living i've essentially been living as a muslim.

I'm of Iranian descent but my family was never religious. I started reading the Quran and I realized that the concept of God in Islam is in line with my philosophy on Everything. The Quran is an amazing book.

It is the most meta-textual text in existence. This book is the most amazing thing in History. Surely this book is beyond human creation!

I've decided that i'll only pay attention to the Quran though. I don't like the hadith. I feel my own judgment on using the Quran is better.

Very true. The depth in Quran is simply amazing. I was listening to this lecture other day and i realised that we dont know that how important is each word in quran. Specially we the non-arabic speaking population..

This is a small lecture but very very beautiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4MdNZWuQEY

There are other lengthier discussion by him too.. But listen to them if you like his this lecture.. BTW he does not talk about hadith..
Kad5
Member
(02-28-2012, 05:44 AM)
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Islam is honestly just Monotheism at its core. It's sort of like panenetheism. It's exactly how I view God and it makes perfect sense. And the Quran is scientifically accurate too!

It is the most meta-textual text in existence yet people continue to ignore it!

I'm honestly confused why people don't get this book.

It's really cool.
Instigator
Banned
(02-28-2012, 06:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

And the Quran is scientifically accurate too!

Why do Muslims continually repeat not only this fallacy but insist on tying the Quran to forever changing knowledge?
Kad5
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(02-28-2012, 06:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Instigator

Why do Muslims continually repeat not only this fallacy but insist on tying the Quran to forever changing knowledge?

Because essentially i'm a panentheist and it describes what I think perfectly. And it does make references that are somewhat accurate with what we know about science.
mlbriggs
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(02-28-2012, 06:11 AM)

Originally Posted by Kad5

And the Quran is scientifically accurate too!

What?
Kad5
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(02-28-2012, 06:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by mlbriggs

What?

I don't mean it in a literal sense. It just suits what I think about how the physics of the universe work.
Sutton Dagger
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(02-28-2012, 06:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

Because essentially i'm a panentheist and it describes what I think perfectly. And it does make references that are somewhat accurate with what we know about science.

Could you please expand on this?
Instigator
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(02-28-2012, 06:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

Because essentially i'm a panentheist and it describes what I think perfectly. And it does make references that are somewhat accurate with what we know about science.

You think the Earth is flat or the universe came from smoke? Quran says so.
Kad5
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(02-28-2012, 06:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sutton Dagger

Could you please expand on this?

Well for starters it is scientifically accurate. It is a mathematically encoded book. Read here if you want to see what i'm talking about.

The way the book is written is genius too. It is the most meta-textual text in existence.

As for the science references:

I will use verses from the Quran to explain my point. I will make very little use of my own words.

[Quran 17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

I will say that there is a theme of the number 19 throughout the book. It is a mathematical code. Read the above website.


[Quran 7:54] Your Lord is the one God, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. ...


When we translate the term 'days' from semitic language it can refer to a long period of time. Not just a literal 24 hour day.


[Quran 20:4] A revelation from the Creator of the earth and the high heavens.

[Quran 41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."

[Quran 21:30] Do not the Unbelievers see that the Heavens and the Earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder?"


[Quran 1:1] Praise be to God, the Lord of the Worlds.

[Quran 25:59] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, in six days, then assumed all authority. The Most Gracious; ask about Him those who are well founded in knowledge.


[Quran 21:33] And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit.



[Quran 55:33] O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.

(That last verse refers to space exploration)


[39:21] Do you not see that God sends down from the sky water, then places it into underground wells, then produces with it plants of various colors, then they grow until they turn yellow, then He turns them into hay? This should be a reminder for those who possess intelligence.




[Quran 78:6-7] Did we not make the earth habitable? And the mountains stabilizers (of the earth)?



[Quran 21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?





(Keep in mind unbelievers is reffering to the pagan who choose to worship trees and statues and rocks instead of a universal Monist force.)



[20:53] He is the One who made the earth habitable for you, and paved in it roads for you. And He sends down from the sky water with which we produce many different kinds of plants.



[Quran 13:3]... And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. ..


[Quran 16:66] And in the livestock there is a lesson for you: we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers.


[Quran 96:2] He created man from an embryo.


Quran 23:14] Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is God, the best Creator.

[Quran 22:5] O people, if you have any doubt about resurrection, (remember that) we created you from dust, and subsequently from a tiny drop, which turns into a hanging (embryo), then it becomes a fetus that is given life or deemed lifeless. We thus clarify things for you. We settle in the wombs whatever we will for a predetermined period.


[Quran 32:9] He shaped him and blew into him from His spirit. And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.

[Quran 10:92] "Today, we will preserve your body, to set you up as a lesson for future generations." Unfortunately, many people are totally oblivious to Our signs.



(Notice how God refers to itself as a collective. It also refers to itself as We.)


[Quran 57:25] …….and We have sent down iron, in it is great strength.


(Referring to Iron crashing down on Earth from outer space debris.)

[Quran 34:3]...Not even the equivalent of an atom's weight is hidden from Him, be it in the heavens or the earth. Not even smaller than that, or larger (is hidden). All are in a profound record."


(There are things smaller than atoms.)


[Quran 55:7] He constructed the sky and established the law.



(Everything in space is in the right position for life to function. If the Earth were smaller the lack of gravity would most likely not let the Earth retain water.)


[Quran 55:5] The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.



[Quran 39:5] He created the heavens and the earth truthfully. He rolls the night over the day, and rolls the day over the night....



[Quran 79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.




[Quran 27:88] When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of God, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.



[Quran 6:73] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, truthfully. Whenever He says, "Be," it is. His word is the absolute truth. All sovereignty belongs to Him the day the horn is blown. Knower of all secrets and declarations, He is the Most Wise, the Cognizant.



[Quran 21:32] And we rendered the sky a guarded ceiling. Yet, they are totally oblivious to all the portents therein.


(O-Zone layer)


[Quran 24:43] Do you not realize that God drives the clouds, then gathers them together, then piles them on each other, then you see the rain coming out of them? He sends down from the sky loads of snow to cover whomever He wills, while diverting it from whomever He wills. The brightness of the snow almost blinds the eyes.



[Quran 35:9] God is the One who sends the winds to stir up clouds, then we drive them towards barren lands, and revive such lands after they were dead. Thus is the resurrection.




[Quran 79:31] From it, He produced its own water and pasture.


(Water trapped in the earth drawn out)


[Quran 30:2-3] Certainly, the Romans will be defeated. In the nearest land. After their defeat, they will rise again and win.



(Romans defeat Persians. Prediction comes true)


[Quran 21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?


[Quran 23:12] We created the human being from a certain kind of mud.



Evidence of God:

[Quran 16:17] Is One who creates like one who does not create? Would you now take heed?

[Quran 41:53] We will show them our proofs in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things?



[Quran 27:93] And say, "Praise be to God; He will show you His proofs, until you recognize them. Your Lord is never unaware of anything you do."



[Quran 10:101] Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.

[Quran 7:146] I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.




cont.
Kad5
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(02-28-2012, 06:45 AM)
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[Quran 6:25] Some of them listen to you, but we place veils on their heartsto prevent them from understanding, and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what kind of proof they see, they cannot believe. Thus, when they come to argue with you, the disbelievers say, "These are tales from the past."



[Quran 3:86] Why should God guide people who disbelieved after believing, and after witnessing that the messenger is truth, and after solid proofs have been given to them? God does not guide the wicked.






[Quran 40:13] He is the One who continuously shows you His proofs, and sends down to you from the sky provisions. Only those who totally submit will be able to take heed.


[Quran 87:10] The reverent will take heed.
[Quran 87:11] The wicked will avoid it.


[Quran 51:55] And remind, for the reminder benefits the believers.


[Quran 45:3]The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.



[Quran 30:20] Among His proofs is that He created you from dust, then you became reproducing humans.

[Quran 45:13] He committed in your service everything in the heavens and the earth; all from Him. These are proofs for people who reflect.


[Quran 30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.


[Quran 30:22] Among His proofs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors. In these, there are signs for the knowledgeable.




[Quran 30:23] Among His proofs is your sleeping during the night or the day, and your working in pursuit of His provisions. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who can hear.




[Quran 30:24] Among His proofs is that He shows you the lightning as a source of fear, as well as hope, then He sends down from the sky water to revive a land that has been dead. In these, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand.




[Quran 30:25] Among His proofs is that the heaven and the earth are standing at His disposal. Finally, when He calls you out of the earth, one call, you will immediately come out.





[Quran 42:29] Among His proofs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the creatures He spreads in them. He is able to summon them, when He wills.


[Quran 45:3] The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.
[Quran 45:4] Also in your creation, and the creation of all the animals, there are proofs for people who are certain.


[Quran 45:5] Also, the alternation of the night and the day, and the provisions that God sends down from the sky to revive dead lands, and the manipulation of the winds; all these are proofs for people who understand.


[Quran 10:67] He is the One who rendered the night for your rest, and rendered the day lighted. These are proofs for people who can hear.


[Quran 13:3] He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers. And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. The night overtakes the day. These are solid proofs for people who think.



[Quran 13:4] On earth, there are adjacent lots that produce orchards of grapes, crops, palm trees - dioecious and non-dioecious. Although they are irrigated with the same water, we prefer some of them over others in eating. These are solid proofs for people who understand.


[Quran 16:10] He sends down from the sky water for your drink, and to grow trees for your benefit.
[Quran 16:11] With it, He grows for you crops, olives, date palms, grapes, and all kinds of fruits. This is (sufficient) proof for people who think.
[Quran 16:12] And He commits, in your service, the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon. Also, the stars are committed by His command. These are (sufficient) proofs for people who understand.




[Quran 16:13] And (He created) for you on earth things of various colors. This is a (sufficient) proof for people who take heed.
[Quran 16:14] And He committed the sea to serve you; you eat from it tender meat, and extract jewelry which you wear. And you see the ships roaming it for your commercial benefits, as you seek His bounties, that you may be appreciative.


[Quran 16:15] And He placed stabilizers (mountains) on earth, lest it tumbles with you, as well as rivers and roads, that you may be guided.
[Quran 16:16] And landmarks, as well as the stars; to be used for navigation.
[Quran 16:17] Is One who creates like one who does not create? Would you now take heed?




[Quran 16:65] God sends down from the sky water to revive the land after it had died. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who hear.
[Quran 16:66] And in the livestock there is a lesson for you: we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers.
[Quran 16:67] And from the fruits of date palms and grapes you produce intoxicants, as well as good provisions. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who understand.


[Quran 16:68] And your Lord inspired the bee: build homes in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you.
[Quran 16:69] Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.



[Quran 16:79] Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except God. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.
[Quran 16:80] And God provided for you stationary homes where you can live. And He provided for you portable homes made of the hides of livestock, so you can use them when you travel, and when you settle down. And from their wools, furs, and hair, you make furnishings and luxuries for awhile.
[Quran 16:81] And God provided for you shade through things which He created, and provided for you shelters in the mountains, and provided for you garments that protect you from heat, and garments that protect when you fight in wars. He thus perfects His blessings upon you, that you may submit.




[Quran 20:53] He is the One who made the earth habitable for you, and paved in it roads for you. And He sends down from the sky water with which we produce many different kinds of plants.
[Quran 20:54] Eat and raise your livestock. These are sufficient proofs for those who possess intelligence.


[Quran 25:61] Most blessed is the One who placed constellations in the sky, and placed in it a lamp, and a shining moon.
[Quran 25:62] He is the One who designed the night and the day to alternate: a sufficient proof for those who wish to take heed, or to be appreciative.


[Quran 30:46] Among His proofs is that He sends the winds with good omen, to shower you with His mercy, and to allow the ships to run in the sea in accordance with His rules, and for you to seek His bounties (through commerce), that you may be appreciative.



[Quran 42:32] Among His proofs are the ships that sail the sea with sails like flags.
[Quran 42:33] If He willed, He could have stilled the winds, leaving them motionless on top of the water. These are proofs for those who are steadfast, appreciative.



[Quran 31:31] Do you not see that the ships roam the sea, carrying God's provisions, to show you some of His proofs? Indeed, these should be sufficient proofs for everyone who is steadfast, appreciative.


[Quran 41:39] Among His proofs is that you see the land still, then, as soon as we shower it with water, it vibrates with life. Surely, the One who revived it can revive the dead. He is Omnipotent.


[Quran 40:81] He thus shows you His proofs. Which of God's proofs can you deny?

[Quran 10:34] Say, "Can any of your idols initiate creation, then repeat it?" Say, "God initiates the creation, then repeats it." How could you deviate?
[Quran 10:35] Say, "Does any of your idols guide to the truth?" Say, "God guides to the truth. Is one who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or one who does not guide, and needs guidance for himself? What is wrong with your judgment?


[Quran 2:209] If you backslide, after the clear proofs have come to you, then know that God is Almighty, Most Wise.
[Quran 2:210] Are they waiting until God Himself comes to them in dense clouds, together with the angels? When this happens, the whole matter will be terminated, and to God everything will be returned.



[Quran 109:1] Say, "O you disbelievers.
[Quran 109:2] "I do not worship what you worship.
[Quran 109:3] "Nor do you worship what I worship.
[Quran 109:4] "Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
[Quran 109:5] "Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
[Quran 109:6] "To you is your Way, and to me mine."
noobie
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(02-28-2012, 06:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Instigator

You think the Earth is flat or the universe came from smoke? Quran says so.

Have you read the arabic and that also the classical arabic.
Translating anything from one language to another will cause some modification.. no matter how careful you are.

There is a simple word "Barkat" we use in urdu.. i have not found any equivalent english word for it in english.. and there are tons of words like that..and when u put them together and make sentence the meanings are bound to change..
Laughing Banana
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(02-28-2012, 07:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Instigator

You think the Earth is flat or the universe came from smoke? Quran says so.

What verse?
Sayah
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(02-28-2012, 07:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by Laughing Banana

What verse?

Probably referencing to this. It's put out of context as the link explains. It's referring to earth as in the ground where roads can be built, etc........not referring to the actual planet as a whole. Plus, there's the following verse as well.

"And we have made the earth egg shaped". The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 79, Verse 30

Whereas here, it's talking about the actual shape.

Edit: There's also supposedly support for evolution. Check from slide 5 onwards.
Last edited by Sayah; 02-28-2012 at 07:34 AM.
Kad5
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(02-28-2012, 08:27 AM)
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I was hoping to see a rebuttal against the verses I posted.


I guess not. This was sort of a test for me to see how infallible the Quran is. But either way I appreciate the message it provides on my outlook in life.
F#A#Oo
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(02-28-2012, 12:27 PM)
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Masha'Allah Kad5...
Ashes
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(02-28-2012, 12:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

I was hoping to see a rebuttal against the verses I posted.


I guess not. This was sort of a test for me to see how infallible the Quran is. But either way I appreciate the message it provides on my outlook in life.

Wall of texts usually get the fewest readers.
Kad5
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(02-28-2012, 07:29 PM)
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You know guys. I thought it would be a good idea to maybe make a Monotheism thread.....

Something for other monotheist faiths to post in and discuss maybe? Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism for example.

Or something along those lines it doesn't have to be strictly monotheism.
Instigator
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(02-28-2012, 08:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sayah

Probably referencing to this. It's put out of context as the link explains. It's referring to earth as in the ground where roads can be built, etc........not referring to the actual planet as a whole. Plus, there's the following verse as well.

"And we have made the earth egg shaped". The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 79, Verse 30

Whereas here, it's talking about the actual shape.

Edit: There's also supposedly support for evolution. Check from slide 5 onwards.

It's funny, my two-year-old can tell a sphere and an egg apart, yet some people in this thread can not. Earth is not like an (ostrich) egg.

Moreover, the verse where the shape in question is mentionned is even disputed among many Muslims, arguing that it obviously refers to the earth around the ostrich ness being flattened, to make it suitable (which is the whole point of the other verses).

Instead of practicing linguistic gymnastics and grasping at laughably conterted arguments, you could argue most of that stuff as metaphorical and shouldn't be taken literally. Yet some Muslims can't resist making the Quran look "miraculous" any which way they get away with.
Pollux
formerly zmoney
(02-28-2012, 10:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kad5

You know guys. I thought it would be a good idea to maybe make a Monotheism thread.....

Something for other monotheist faiths to post in and discuss maybe? Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism for example.

Or something along those lines it doesn't have to be strictly monotheism.

As a Catholic I support this idea.
Kad5
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(02-29-2012, 03:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Instigator

It's funny, my two-year-old can tell a sphere and an egg apart, yet some people in this thread can not. Earth is not like an (ostrich) egg.

Moreover, the verse where the shape in question is mentionned is even disputed among many Muslims, arguing that it obviously refers to the earth around the ostrich ness being flattened, to make it suitable (which is the whole point of the other verses).

Instead of practicing linguistic gymnastics and grasping at laughably conterted arguments, you could argue most of that stuff as metaphorical and shouldn't be taken literally. Yet some Muslims can't resist making the Quran look "miraculous" any which way they get away with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblate_spheroid


The shape of the Earth is actually a spheroid. Not a perfect sphere. The egg description is somewhat accurate.


Also, you should look up the linguistic structure of semitic languages as well to understand the translation process of the Quran as I have.

Semitic languages are very interesting. A single word can have multiple different meanings and descriptions that , while similar in nature, can be conveyed in entirely different ways.

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