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Bogus
Member
(03-29-2008, 12:36 AM)
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Caught this lovely little tidbit on the Newsarama forums: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthrea...27#post5338327 Not sure if it's been posted already, a search turned up zip.

See if you have sharp enough eyes to spot the subtle similarities between David Mack's work on the New Avengers #39 and Adam Hughes' Gen 13: Ordinary Heroes. Rehosted the images below.

[IMG]http://i28.************/1z4hhtt.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i30.************/29ebuw.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i32.************/dgghmh.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i29.************/volcp1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i26.************/2a5jcqr.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i26.************/5mwgw6.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i30.************/2d9r0jr.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i25.************/6sgboh.jpg[/IMG]

So Mack didn't admit he had traced until he was called on it. Now he's saying they're "homages" to Hughes' work.

What are your thoughts, GAF?
Last edited by Bogus; 03-29-2008 at 12:39 AM.
Spike Spiegel
the things I do for money
I'll never understand
the world is just a marble
in the palm of my hand
(03-29-2008, 12:39 AM)
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I think David Mack, Rob Liefeld and Greg Land should start a support group.
Mike Works
(03-29-2008, 12:44 AM)
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HOW THE FUCK IS THIS LEGAL?
AstroLad
Hail to the KING baby
(03-29-2008, 12:46 AM)
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:lol so blatant
spikydavid
Member
(03-29-2008, 12:48 AM)
That's a real shame - I've really like David Mack's work in the past (Kabuki, Daredevil: Wake-Up), and the boy has talent (unlike Liefield). I guess anyone can cut corners
fatigues_gasolini
Member
(03-29-2008, 12:49 AM)
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Is there a link where he is called out? This looks interesting.
BenjaminBirdie
(03-29-2008, 12:49 AM)
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Say what you will about Rob, he's at least drawing his own shit his own way.

This is just stunning in this day and age. How on Earth could he possibly believe he'd be able to get away with this when motherfuckers are caught at this seven times a week?

It's not like he's got a dozen books coming out a month.
Shockgamer
Banned
(03-29-2008, 12:53 AM)
Hunh.
Last edited by Shockgamer; 03-29-2008 at 12:58 AM.
Sapiens
Member
(03-29-2008, 12:56 AM)
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What a piece of shit.


It's also amazing how this tracer sucks all the life out of the original work.
BenjaminBirdie
(03-29-2008, 12:57 AM)
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And here's the cover to the issue that Marvel made him change after the controversy on THAT erupted.





That's real. No lie.
bengraven
will fuck homely black hookers in the name of progress and tolerance
(03-29-2008, 12:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by spikydavid

That's a real shame - I've really like David Mack's work in the past (Kabuki, Daredevil: Wake-Up), and the boy has talent (unlike Liefield). I guess anyone can cut corners

/thread

I love me some David Mack. Every anime fan should read Kabuki: Scarab.
Bogus
Member
(03-29-2008, 12:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by gamerecks

Is there a link where he is called out? This looks interesting.

I'm not sure. The thread linked in the OP has reprints of his response, though. He says he originally suggested the idea to Hughes and his girlfriend, who supposedly "got a kick" out of the idea. Hughes' girlfriend, however, denies Mack's story.

In the same issue, there's a trace of Alex Maleev's Daredevil. Mack was called out for this as well, and he played it off as an homage by virtue of the fact that Daredevil in New Avengers 39 is a skrull, not the real Daredevil. If that's the case, then what's his excuse for tracing Caitlin Farchild for Maya Lopez?

Here's his swipe of Maleev's Daredevil:

[IMG]http://i30.************/swbxvc.jpg[/IMG]
Last edited by Bogus; 03-29-2008 at 01:06 AM.
DarkJediKnight
(03-29-2008, 01:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by BenjaminBirdie

And here's the cover to the issue that Marvel made him change after the controversy on THAT erupted.





That's real. No lie.



I knew that Wolverine looked familiar!
Pachinko
Member
(03-29-2008, 01:12 AM)
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Liefelds art may be horrible in every respect but I gotta give the guy some credit for actually.. well drawing it. Greg land and david mack ... they aren't artists. Anyone can trace someone elses work, it's downright shameful and I don't get how marvel keeps paying them to trace. Sure , american comics these days keep very little of that original pencilwork but that's no excuse.
omg rite
Banned
(03-29-2008, 01:18 AM)
Wow.

I usually don't care if an artist traces here and there, but that's fucking all over the place.

I mean it doesn't change my opinion of the issue. It was awesome. And the art did look great (I think it was more the coloring).

But holy shit.
Dali
(03-29-2008, 01:19 AM)
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Man, that's just terrible.

And to the people defending Rob, I think there were examples of him doing the same thing in the last Rob Bash thread we had.
Narag
Member
(03-29-2008, 01:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dali

Man, that's just terrible.

And to the people defending Rob, I think there were examples of him doing the same thing in the last Rob Bash thread we had.


I think I remember that stuff. Helicarrier, right?
omg rite
Banned
(03-29-2008, 01:24 AM)

Originally Posted by Dali

Man, that's just terrible.

And to the people defending Rob, I think there were examples of him doing the same thing in the last Rob Bash thread we had.

To be totally fair, even if it's not right, I bet most comic artists have traced at least once or twice.

This is just ridiculous though.

Hughe's girlfriend is posting in that Newsarama thread too.

Oh, and another one.

"And we have Alan Davis joining in on the Mack Homage Bus."

rollingstart
Member
(03-29-2008, 01:26 AM)
Rob Liefeld cant be touched.
krypt0nian
Banned
(03-29-2008, 01:26 AM)
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Inexcusable.
Dali
(03-29-2008, 01:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by omg rite

To be totally fair, even if it's not right, I bet most comic artists have traced at least once or twice.

Yeah, I guess that's possible, but when people already think you're a no-talent hack you shouldn't give them any concrete evidence like in Liefeld's case.

Found the post.

Originally Posted by Rorschach

I'm sure he doesn't. You should e-mail him.

[IMG]http://i1.************/85ffpjq.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i11.************/8gdt153.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i13.************/7xo9lag.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i17.************/6le80bc.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i15.************/6lmdbwn.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i13.************/6z6hnb8.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i17.************/8ekfhmv.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i3.************/8eks29f.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i19.************/71h2aog.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i18.************/6p5tgqs.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i19.************/6siom50.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i12.************/850wuus.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i14.************/732x4p5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i19.************/8aphedi.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i18.************/6ycnoxv.jpg[/IMG]

Liefeld defense force. ><

Last edited by Dali; 03-29-2008 at 01:31 AM.
Narag
Member
(03-29-2008, 01:29 AM)
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I actually met Greg Land and he seemed like a really cool dude. Was he always a tracer? I liked his Nightwing =\
BenjaminBirdie
(03-29-2008, 01:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by krypt0nian

Inexcusable.

This really could be the worst and simultaneously most high profile case of swiping ever.

And in the same week a Frank Quitely book drops? What a dope. I mean it just shows that tracing is such a high level of artistic bullshit when you've got people who can turn out such amazing, imaginative, and clearly original work.
omg rite
Banned
(03-29-2008, 01:31 AM)

Originally Posted by Narag

I actually met Greg Land and he seemed like a really cool dude. Was he always a tracer? I liked his Nightwing =\

That's what sucks about Land. I really really like how is art looks, but he is a tracer.
bengraven
will fuck homely black hookers in the name of progress and tolerance
(03-29-2008, 01:33 AM)
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It's hard for me to see this: I've been a Mack fan for a long time.
Spike Spiegel
the things I do for money
I'll never understand
the world is just a marble
in the palm of my hand
(03-29-2008, 01:37 AM)
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The thing about Greg Land is, not only does he trace other artists' work, but he reuses his own reference material. A LOT. So sometimes it looks like he's tracing himself. :lol

[img]http://i31.************/117cyn8.gif[/img]

Waitaminute... he IS tracing himself! :O
Last edited by Spike Spiegel; 03-29-2008 at 01:42 AM.
Kipe
Member
(03-29-2008, 01:46 AM)
Alex Maleev's Daredevil and Empire State Building cover



David Mack's Daredevil and Empire State Building in the first panel



Here's Alex Maleev's reply to David Mack's copying

Originally Posted by Alex Maleev

Originally Posted by David Mack

Hey guys, thanks for the response, and I owe Jose Villarubia all the credit for his colors making my art look better here.

About the reference to Adam Hughes, yeah, I owe him credit here too.
When preparing for the look of this book, I wanted to really embrace the comic book look of things while keeping things looking realistic as well, and I'm a big fan of Adam's ability to do that, (one of the reasons I asked him to do a Kabuki cover for me, which is one of my favorites) and I was looking at a lot of his work, among others, as a kind of training wheels in considereing styles, and getting started on this issue. Particularly in that he also captured a Native American ethnicity so well.
As you know, I've usually painted echo to communicate that ethnicityl and I was exploring successful ways that can be communicated with line art as well.

This was one of the first pages that I drew in this issue, getting into the vibe for the series and you may be right that I referenced it too heavily. Sometimes when you are getting rolling on a project it takes a few pages to work the influences out of your system.

So props to Adam, you have to give credit where credit is due, and I hope this will be viewed as more of an homage and not be distracting to you in the context of the rest of the story.

Since you are spreading the credit, can I get some too?

Source

Originally Posted by David Mack

Originally Posted by Alex Maleev

Since you are spreading the credit, can I get some too?

Absolutely
When I was doing the second Echo story in between the Bendis/Maleev run, I tried to make it look like the Maleev DD to fit into the continuity.

In this story the images of DD has Iconic DD looks from Iconic DD artists for reasons based in this particular story. I'll comment more on it when the issue is out, so as not to spoils.

Source

Originally Posted by Alex Maleev

Originally Posted by David Mack

Absolutely
When I was doing the second Echo story in between the Bendis/Maleev run, I tried to make it look like the Maleev DD to fit into the continuity.

In this story the images of DD has Iconic DD looks from Iconic DD artists for reasons based in this particular story. I'll comment more on it when the issue is out, so as not to spoils.

I am looking forward to examining the issue closely and seeing the homage you paid to different DD artists. I am curious to see whose art you chose to use. From what I hear, you have outdone yourself!

Source
adamsappel
Member
(03-29-2008, 01:46 AM)
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Why? It's not like these guys can't draw (Liefeld can't; human anatomy escapes him). I can see aping the cool angle of another panel, or the basic pose of a character, but to actually trace it? Weak.
Askia47
Na na na na na na na na
Katamari Pubic Lice!
(03-29-2008, 01:46 AM)
A damn shame about Mack. Is Kabuki still going?
avatar299
Banned
(03-29-2008, 01:47 AM)
Does it really matter? An artists role is to tell a story visually along with the writer ability to convey a story by narrative. New Avenger 39 was a damn fine comic that told a good story, and to be honest i can't see myself denying that just because someone has way to much time on their hands.
omg rite
Banned
(03-29-2008, 01:52 AM)

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

The thing about Greg Land is, not only does he trace other artists' work, but he reuses his own reference material. A LOT. So sometimes it looks like he's tracing himself. :lol

[img]http://i31.************/117cyn8.gif[/img]

Waitaminute... he IS tracing himself! :O

That doesn't really bother me that much, to be honest. Tracing himself. Whatever.

But what Mack is doing/saying is horrible.
Dali
(03-29-2008, 01:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by avatar299

Does it really matter? An artists role is to tell a story visually along with the writer ability to convey a story by narrative. New Avenger 39 was a damn fine comic that told a good story, and to be honest i can't see myself denying that just because someone has way to much time on their hands.

Does it really matter? Yes and no. If you care about your integrity or having people doubt that your work is your own, then yes. If not, then no.
omg rite
Banned
(03-29-2008, 01:54 AM)

Originally Posted by avatar299

Does it really matter? An artists role is to tell a story visually along with the writer ability to convey a story by narrative. New Avenger 39 was a damn fine comic that told a good story, and to be honest i can't see myself denying that just because someone has way to much time on their hands.

I'm not denying this.

This sucks because it's going to take away from how good of a comic it was.

But this isn't right and should be publically acknowledged.
Kipe
Member
(03-29-2008, 01:58 AM)

Originally Posted by avatar299

Does it really matter? An artists role is to tell a story visually along with the writer ability to convey a story by narrative. New Avenger 39 was a damn fine comic that told a good story, and to be honest i can't see myself denying that just because someone has way to much time on their hands.

It matters to Adam Hughes and Alex Maleev to comment on it:

Originally Posted by Allison Sohn

As Adam's rep., if I posted to say he cares, will it make a difference to you or your arguement? Maleev posted much earlier in the thread, if I'm not mistaken, asking for an apology. It sounded like he cared.

Some artists work very hard to bring what they consider to be thier best work to the table. Other artists think "hey that looks good, I'll use that and save myself some time/effort/brain cels"... whatever. Its simply a matter of you get hired to do a job; and you do it. For some there is pride in your work and you do the best you can. For others, for whatever reason, you cut corners and you just get it done. Maybe it was a family emergency; maybe the artist got in over his head and couldn't do the job. Regardless, it shows a complete lack of respect to the artists that worked hard to hold up thier end of the deal and delivered the original art that was later appropriated, for whatever reason.

Alan Davis's Excaliber cover.

TheWolf
Banned
(03-29-2008, 02:01 AM)


lol
Lhadatt
Member
(03-29-2008, 02:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by avatar299

Does it really matter? An artists role is to tell a story visually along with the writer ability to convey a story by narrative. New Avenger 39 was a damn fine comic that told a good story, and to be honest i can't see myself denying that just because someone has way to much time on their hands.

Apply that same argument to anything else. Go, on, try it.

Animation: So it doesn't matter when animation footage is reused from different films, tv shows/episodes, or even in the same film? Yeah, it tells the story, but it's a cheap way out.
Scripts: Reusing bits of existing scripts would be like watching different parts of reruns sewn together.
Music: This is already done. Apparently, they justify it by calling it "sampling." Bah!
Literature: Try it here and you'll get smacked down for plagiarism.

I don't see why comic book art gets a free ride here. It's not paying homage to someone's art, it's stealing it.
Dabookerman
Member
(03-29-2008, 02:15 AM)
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If they had to trace, could they not photo someone or themselves in a pose and then trace over it?
SpiderJerusalem
Member
(03-29-2008, 02:21 AM)
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Damn
Pachinko
Member
(03-29-2008, 03:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by dabookerman

If they had to trace, could they not photo someone or themselves in a pose and then trace over it?


It's funny you mention this, there's a comic from wildstorm/DC out right now called EX machina that pretty much does JUST this thing, they take a picture of every single panel and lay it out with real people playing roles basically. Then the penciller traces overtop of that photograph adjusting figures and such as needed to make the characters look the right proportions , adding Mayor hundreds green face thingy , etc. By the time it's actually done it's somewhere between original artwork and rotoscoping. I'm pretty sure bryan hitch did this a few times for his double run on Ultimates but Ex Machina and Ultimates still look like actual original artwork whereas the stuff greg land does in particular looks like what it is- cut up photographs with emblems from various teams scattered about to make the drawing atleast vaguely resemble the character in question. Lands run on ultimate fantastic four was almost unreadable thanks to his "art".

This david mack guy seems to be doing something similar, he's likely traced the poses,perhaps even the whole thing to get an idea for how it looks and then gone back and altered it a little bit. I think it'd be interesting to see the pencil work for land and macks original stuff, the coloring and inking really do quite a bit to attempt to hide how blatant it is.

As for leifeild, I'd forgotten that he to did this a few times but it looks like a 50% trace job, like he copied most of the pictures then went back and leifeldized them a little , angry toothy mouths, squintier eyes, waspier waists and more duffle bags and pockets.
Flynn
"I am so fired..."
(03-29-2008, 03:21 AM)
Flynn's Avatar

Originally Posted by Mike Works

HOW THE FUCK IS THIS LEGAL?

Comics artist swipe all the time. It's a long, long tradition that comes from the days when they had to crank out multiple pages a day. Today's artists aren't worked half as hard, but who cares. If they assemble the page smartly and the comic reads who cares if they snagged the drawing from somebody else. Otherwise they'd be using photo reference. No skin off my nose either way.
FoneBone
Member
(03-29-2008, 04:07 AM)
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Greg Land and his porn tracings are still infinitely worse.
Raguel
Member
(03-29-2008, 04:43 AM)
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HAHAHA. Tsk tsk tsk, David Mack. He's a good artist in his own right, but god damn, that blatant tracing is inexcusable.
Blader
Member
(03-29-2008, 04:54 AM)
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What's even worse than the blatant plagiarism is the fact that Mack lied about. He claimed that he had gotten permission to use that woman's likeness for the New Avengers cover, when in actuality, she had never given her consent at all.
Mit
Junior Member
(03-29-2008, 05:10 AM)

Originally Posted by Bogus

[IMG]http://i28.************/1z4hhtt.jpg[/IMG]

Anyone else think the white stuff on her face looked like spooge?
bjork
(03-29-2008, 05:15 AM)
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I thought this was a fairly common practice?
YYZ
Junior Member
(03-29-2008, 05:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mit

Anyone else think the white stuff on her face looked like spooge?

it looks fucking retarded imo, yes that's what I thought at first too.
TAJ
Member
(03-29-2008, 05:27 AM)
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The most copypasta I ever saw in a comic book was in WildC.A.T.S. #2, but that was Jim Lee recycling his own work, and he apologized for it in the letters page of that issue or the next.
mightynine
Member
(03-29-2008, 06:25 AM)
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Such a random comic to swipe from. (And I own it.)
Flynn
"I am so fired..."
(03-29-2008, 06:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by bjork

I thought this was a fairly common practice?

It is. But people like playing "this matches this." It's another convenient outlet for pent up outrage.
v1cious
Banned
(03-29-2008, 06:45 AM)
man you have to be a real nerd to be able just look at a comic and notice these similarities.

LOL and David Mack actually tries to defend himself. this thread is legendary.
Last edited by v1cious; 03-29-2008 at 07:02 AM.

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