http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11658700&postcount=6urk said:
you nailed it better than me.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Installing game every Act (MGS4). Is this a good trend of game loading?
- Thread starter gconsole
- Start date
you nailed it better than me.
They should have made it so you install the act once, and then never have to worry about installing the act again, or install the whole game upon startup... it was really frustrating, because my brother played the game in tandem with me, and he would usually be a chapter behind (
)... so every time I wanted to play, I'd have to install my current chapter, or he would have to install his.
And what's up with installing downloaded demos/games off PSN? That's so stupid.
but the bastard played the game all last night while I was out and he beat it 
And what's up with installing downloaded demos/games off PSN? That's so stupid.
It loads faster than the traditional DVD-based games since it's installed on HDD even after you turn off the console. In 360/PS2 days you had to see a loading screen each time you reset a game. Also it kills popups seen in HDD-caching games such as Uncharted.
I don't see why some are whining about this, zapping thru each act in 1 session is highly unlikely unless you are a super hardcore who enjoys speedrunning everyday.
I don't see why some are whining about this, zapping thru each act in 1 session is highly unlikely unless you are a super hardcore who enjoys speedrunning everyday.
The loading was an annoyance. I doubt it will become something that becomes common. I'm not sure why the game was built in such a way as to necessitate this system of continuous installs, or if it was just a dumb decision on KP's part to disallow one big install. Playing through the game again, its disappointing to have to still wait through the installs each act. Why were they not simply stored on my hard drive? I have the space. Its nice that they seem to have tried to keep down the space the game takes up as much as possible for those who want that, but I do not.
And given the installs, the loading between zones was also unexpected. Maybe its the way they're presented, but they really break up the game, especially during more hectic moments.
And given the installs, the loading between zones was also unexpected. Maybe its the way they're presented, but they really break up the game, especially during more hectic moments.
oh I believe youFirewire said:
I suppose there are a couple ways Konami could have hidden the loads.
There are some long ass cutscenes in this game, the next act could load during them. Or perhaps during the mission briefing. If you hit a button to skip these then it could bring you to the installing screen.
Oblivion installs during the opening intro. It is seamless and works great.
There are some long ass cutscenes in this game, the next act could load during them. Or perhaps during the mission briefing. If you hit a button to skip these then it could bring you to the installing screen.
Oblivion installs during the opening intro. It is seamless and works great.
brain_stew
Member
That honestly sounds like the worst possible solution to this "problem". If it was any other game it'd have been a major issue and would have had points docked in reviews, if it works as you say it does.
This. The PS3 has plenty capable of large, detailed levels with minimal loading and no installing. Kojima Productions should have dedicated more resources to this area.
Moray said:
This. The PS3 has plenty capable of large, detailed levels with minimal loading and no installing. Kojima Productions should have dedicated more resources to this area.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
Mrbob said:
This would be logical, that's why they didn't do it.
brain_stew
Member
Shins said:
No, no, no, my comment was in reply to the OP. I didn't quote anyone's post, hence it was in reply to the original question. I agree a system like Oblivion is a much better idea.
Tiduz said:
Then store them as video, and stream them from the disc, a 50GB Bluray gives more than enough space to do this if no other solution is possible.
I can't believe people are actually making this out to be a big deal. Do the same people that complain about these 2 minute installs also comlpain everytime they have to wait while connecting to a server when playing online? Everytime I play CS/TF2 it takes longer than 2 minutes to load the game, connect to a server, and then for a round to start. This whole discussion is such nonsense.
PC games have had long install times and load times for quite some time so the MGS4 stuff doesn't bother me in the least. Even Half Life 2 has loading in the middle of levels (though more or less significant depending on your hardware). This happens even if you're not running off the disk. This is nothing new.
My problem with the MGS4 installs is that it happens between each act every time you play it. If the initial install and the installs between acts on your first run through were the only times they had to be done for every play through, I'd be fine with it, but that's not how it works. When you play the game from start to finish your second run through, the between act installs are there again and that's pretty lame. For example:
Lets say I want to show a friend a sequence from act 3 and then another from act 4 loading up separate save files. To do this, the game has to do two separate installs even though I've already installed them from my first run through. That's irritating to me. I wish there was a way to do a full install and just keep it on my HDD as that would make this complaint moot. Alas, I had no idea Sony had restrictions on the amount of data a game can install on the HDD. That changes things considerably.
I just wish we had the option of a full install for the whole game so on my second, third and fourth run, I wouldn't have to install anything else.
My problem with the MGS4 installs is that it happens between each act every time you play it. If the initial install and the installs between acts on your first run through were the only times they had to be done for every play through, I'd be fine with it, but that's not how it works. When you play the game from start to finish your second run through, the between act installs are there again and that's pretty lame. For example:
Lets say I want to show a friend a sequence from act 3 and then another from act 4 loading up separate save files. To do this, the game has to do two separate installs even though I've already installed them from my first run through. That's irritating to me. I wish there was a way to do a full install and just keep it on my HDD as that would make this complaint moot. Alas, I had no idea Sony had restrictions on the amount of data a game can install on the HDD. That changes things considerably.
I just wish we had the option of a full install for the whole game so on my second, third and fourth run, I wouldn't have to install anything else.
I'm not sure how they could win on this one. Without any install, we've no idea how the game would have turned out. With a full install of all acts, we'd have the usual whine patrol complaining about running out of hd space.
I didn't mind this method at all, but luckily my brother prefers to watch me play MGS than play it himself.
I didn't mind this method at all, but luckily my brother prefers to watch me play MGS than play it himself.
What I wonder is what people would hope for as an alternative. I think we can safely say that given the importance of this game to its creator, all options were explored, and this was the best one. Whatever other way it could have been done would probably have made you wait even longer.
BobTheFork
Member
I don't think some people are being objective about this. There is going to be a wait for games like this, end of story. The question is how do you want that wait? A 23 minute 10 gig install? A 5 gig rolling install with minimal loading (vary minimal in MGS4: 3-4 seconds), or a 5 gig with no Act loading and longer loading screens.
No matter which of these three it would be, people would be bitching about 'install time too long', 'install size too big', or 'scene-to-scene loading too long'. As we stand in console gaming, there is no perfect solution and I think some people are trying to argue this against some Utopian scenario.
Personally I think they found the best possible solution they could. They do the largest install first, and only once. The largest install time after that is 3 minutes (then 2, then 1). The loading from scene to scene is only a few second and it keeps the game play moving.The only place where the MGS4 fails is if for some reason (which I have) needed to load different saves on different acts.
Lastly I'll point out that at this time, MGS4 is the only console game of this size, and the only to have this strange kind of install, so I wouldn't call it a trend just yet.
I got a 20 gig unit, but I spent the 'saved' 100 bucks on a 100 gig HDD. At this point, its cheap enough that I think 20 gig owners should look to upgrade. How many of us are there any way?
No matter which of these three it would be, people would be bitching about 'install time too long', 'install size too big', or 'scene-to-scene loading too long'. As we stand in console gaming, there is no perfect solution and I think some people are trying to argue this against some Utopian scenario.
Personally I think they found the best possible solution they could. They do the largest install first, and only once. The largest install time after that is 3 minutes (then 2, then 1). The loading from scene to scene is only a few second and it keeps the game play moving.The only place where the MGS4 fails is if for some reason (which I have) needed to load different saves on different acts.
Lastly I'll point out that at this time, MGS4 is the only console game of this size, and the only to have this strange kind of install, so I wouldn't call it a trend just yet.
I got a 20 gig unit, but I spent the 'saved' 100 bucks on a 100 gig HDD. At this point, its cheap enough that I think 20 gig owners should look to upgrade. How many of us are there any way?
Goldrusher
Member
Costanza said:
Thanks for timing. Definitely didn't feel like 3 minutes at all, only about a minute going from the XMB to playing.Brashnir said:
They could not have simply installed the full game, unfortunately. The data that is installed requires over 11gb and Sony does not allow any game to install more than 5gb total. They should have found a way to handle the data without installing ALL of that, however.
Also, one last thing. I really don't want to make this an east/west thing but lets face it, Japanese developers are struggling big time with the 360 and PS3. Top tier teams who would have some of the most polished products last gen (Ninja Gaiden, MGS2, MGS3) are now struggling with how to handle technical data with these new systems. It really does seem they have fallen behind the curve when it comes to the techincal aspect of making games, so I think this is the best we can expect until they get up to speed. Even Capcom has their issues. Dead Rising on 360 is awesome, but it has a massive amount of loading in it as well. Streaming doesn't seem to be a strong suit of japanese development right now.
Monocle
Member
The idea of installations for console games makes me uncomfortable, though not owning a PS3 myself I can't say how much they would actually bother me. However, I can pretty much guarantee that I'd find MGS4's multiple installations very disagreeable. It seems to me that loading periods of moderate length would be preferable to sitting through an installation every time I wanted to play a different chapter of the game.
Haunted One said:
This generation is pushing towards that, definitely. I keep imagining next generation being Sony and Microsoft offering you the shell of a console for $200 and saying, "Go ahead, fill it with whatever you want." PC gaming isn't dead like others suggest; it was simply so far ahead on the evolutionary scale that the rest are trying desperately to catch up with it.
And personally, it sort of pisses me off. Consoles are great because they're convenient; the moment they cease being convenient, then what's the fucking point of differentiating them from PCs at all?
I think a lot of people are bringing up "disk swapping" as some kind of counterpoint when it really seems to be more of a streaming issue. Seems like the streaming engine needs some work-- i'd love it if Naughty Dog could take a look at it before the Substance/Subsistence rerelease.
But has anyone actually determined that it would be eliminated by disk swapping? Seems like a lot of fanboy hot air on that one.
The same is true of Kojipro.
But has anyone actually determined that it would be eliminated by disk swapping? Seems like a lot of fanboy hot air on that one.
McDragon said:
The same is true of Kojipro.
stuminus3
Member
I laughed a while back at how I used to play games on my old 48k Sinclair ZX Spectrum. You'd get games where you'd finish a level, and have to press "play" on the tape to load the next one. Oh, what crazy times we lived in, how far we've come, I thought.
Then this happened.
Yeah, it's no good at all. I don't care for the reasons for it. I just want to play.
Then this happened.
Yeah, it's no good at all. I don't care for the reasons for it. I just want to play.
I played the game marathon style, though from 12am Thurs - 5am Thurs, then 11am Thurs - 5am Fri. I enjoyed the installs because my furious eye strain got to rest for a minute or 2.
Playing through the game several times after the first, they are pretty quick. I wish you could choose to keep all of them on there so they didnt have to re install every time you play.
Playing through the game several times after the first, they are pretty quick. I wish you could choose to keep all of them on there so they didnt have to re install every time you play.
I didn't see it as an issue in till I started hoping between acts to look at different portions of the game... Then it became an infuriating nightmare which pretty much stops you from playing this way.
I'd prefer one big install, although I imagine it would be quite a heafty size. Ideal world however, no install, no load times, but we're far of from that.
I'd prefer one big install, although I imagine it would be quite a heafty size. Ideal world however, no install, no load times, but we're far of from that.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
samratty said:
5 years ago I had a Gamecube, and most (of my) games didn't have loading times.
10 years ago I had an N64 with no loading times.
Yes we're far from the times of no install and no loading times...
McDragon said:
I don't know what MGS4's budget was, but I'm pretty sure a lot of it was not spent on this sort of tech-- things like military and locale research, the rumored $4 million opening, voice talent, developing the online game, etc. MGS4 is a much bigger production than Dead Rising ever hoped to be.
With regards to time, the complaint seems to be more of a tech complaint here ("Japanese developers can't stream lolz!"). They're not going to learn how to write a new streaming engine in the middle of a three year huge project.
But I would like it if Naughty Dog, who has unquestionably the best streaming engine on console, would look at the code
traveler said:
no way dude. didn't you read the post by people with MGS avatars? this is a good thing. because.....well, because the game is great! or because it gives you time to do other stuff like take a piss. never mind the fact that you may not have to piss....try anyway! and your scenario makes this install system seem like it could be bad somehow. so it's obviously not true and you made it up to discredit MGS4. did i miss anything? oh yeah, it's better than switching discs because i like Metal Gear.
srsly, some of y'all are beyond crazy with your love for a game franchise. this install method is retarded as fuck from the standpoint of any gamer. or should be. i know fanboism can cloud ones mind but to defend this shit? really? :lol saying, "i like the game so it didn't bother me" isn't really answering the question of the thread starter. would you like to see this practice going forward? if so then you're absolutely fucking crazy and i hope your opinion never becomes law for games.
and no i haven't played all the way through and yes i think it's the best game of the gen already.
Len Dontree
Animator. Respect knuckles.
oneHeero said:
Gotcha, "change the diapers" is the new "go make a sandwich." I'll keep that in mind!
The per-act installs are annoying (and as pointed out, any other game with "Now Loading" in its place would be crucified here), but I would like to have seen them eliminate mid-level loading and have each act be a seamless level a la Halo. Sure, the load times are pretty quick but I would've hoped that installing each act could cut down on the partitioning of the worlds into little sections (especially for the on-rails parts, wtf).
Having to install shit on the PS3 in general is my biggest pet peeve though...When I've downloaded a demo (precious few that there are) or update and then have to sit through an installation to boot, during which you can't navigate to anything else, I have to wonder why it's set up that way. I guess I could always spoon-feed my kid some Doxidan in hopes that a soiled diaper will provide me with a distraction.
The Faceless Master
Member
well, replacing a HDD is easy enough, when it comes to the average NeoGAF user, but when we're talking about the average person that uses composite cables on their HDTV, it's a whole new ballgame.BobTheFork said:
and when the first few games with 5GB HDD installs appeared, people said the same thing about it not being a trend...
