[Tiktaalik]

Buy your media and risk having it confiscated by a DRM-server shutdown. Take it for free and keep it forever?

This BoingBoing post talks about Walmart's music store, which is now shutting down and unless consumers are tech savvy, they'll lose the ability to play the music they've bought. Even if they are savvy, what they have to do to save their music that they've paid for is a huge pain anyway.

Hey suckers! Did you buy DRM music from Wal*Mart instead of downloading MP3s for free from the P2P networks? Well, they're repaying your honesty by taking away your music. Unless you go through a bunch of hoops (that you may never find out about, if you've changed email addresses or if you're not a very technical person), your music will no longer be playable after October 9th. But don't worry, this will never ever happen to all those other DRM companies -- unlike little fly-by-night mom-and-pop operations like Wal*Mart, the DRM companies are rock-ribbed veterans of commerce and industry, sure to be here for a thousand years. So go on buying your Audible books, your iTunes DRM songs, your Zune media, your EA games... None of these companies will ever disappear, nor will the third-party DRM suppliers they use. They are as solid and permanent as Commodore, Atari, the Soviet Union, the American credit system and the Roman Empire. Boy, the entertainment industry sure makes a good case for ripping them off, huh? Buy your media and risk having it confiscated by a DRM-server shutdown. Take it for free and keep it forever.

Why does this matter and why is it posted in the games forum? Well the games industry is currently massively moving toward downloadable content, and while this movement is 100% necessary and has had a huge positive impact on gamers, providing us with games such as Braid and Castle Crashers which would not otherwise been financially viable, there has been little thought toward the long term implications of this.

Wii owners that have had their systems bricked will attest to the fact that it can be a huge pain and inconvenience to get their games they've downloaded back, and you really have to wonder how long will Microsoft and Sony support their respective networks and games. Will there be some future where it is literally impossible to play Braid or CastleCrashers or PixelJunk Monsters?

Thanks to console rom dumpers nearly the entirety of gaming history is available to us. With a little searching for example, you can easily find and download the entire Famicom disk system library (it's about 10MB worth of data) which is genuinely a smart thing to do, considering that the hardware itself is notoriously failure prone. Hold your replies for a minute, we're not talking about piracy, at this point I'm just talking about basic historical preservation.

So I'm wondering, how about our new era of downloadable games. As the above article shows one could easily see a future where XBL is simply turned off. Will gamers resort to buying used Xbox 360 harddrives in the hope that there is a Castle Crashers on there?

We've already seen games disappear. Metal Gear Solid 3's online component was turned off by Konami after a very short time, and while it's been replaced by the similar MGS4 online, the fact exists that you can now never play MGS3 online ever again. With online PC games hackers have frequently created ways to host their own servers and so online games will be able to exist long after their companies stopped supporting them, but online console games? I'm not sure.

All of this discussion I think supports the idea that between all of these companies diving into the online space there needs to be some discussion about long term support. Perhaps the ESA needs to organize some historical support group that collects the code of online games. It's a pretty far fetched idea, though unless hackers start getting interested in hacking PSN and XBL and start putting backups of those games on the net, I don't know what other ways future folks will have of playing games from this era.

[permutated]

Anything is possible, regardless I only buy console games now since SPORE was a complete waste of time and money.

EDIT: I'm happy to report that DRM stripping is showing up for both platforms on things like iTunes files, so even if something were to happen, we'd have ways of retrieving the data.

[PacoDG]

I have had these fears from the beginning when getting XBLA games first on my 360, finding that after I put my hard drive on my brothers 360, I would have to log into the network to get the games to work.

Then I started thinking of Nintendo Wii VC games, though I have only took the plunge on one a while ago, I think of all those gaffers who say they have overfilled the space given and are now basically in Nintendo's hands as far as ensuring that they will be able to download their games they got again.

I know Microsoft fixed their DRM problem a little bit (where now when I put my hard drive on another 360, then back on mine, it recognizes it is my 360), but how long will this support last?

They are turning buying into renting (in a way) and it sucks because convenience of downloads rules.

[PacoDG]

All of this discussion I think supports the idea that between all of these companies diving into the online space there needs to be some discussion about long term support. Perhaps the ESA needs to organize some historical support group that collects the code of online games. It's a pretty far fetched idea, though unless hackers start getting interested in hacking PSN and XBL and start putting backups of those games on the net, I don't know what other ways future folks will have of playing games from this era.

I just re-read the whole article and this part sticks out now. Because them having discussions I don't think will happen as soon as someone with a good legal head can come up and force the companies to outline some rules on DRM, length of time the rules would apply, as well as some kind of awareness that people are leasing things and not actually buying them.

[Oldschoolgamer]

They are as solid and permanent as Commodore, Atari, the Soviet Union, the American credit system and the Roman Empire.

Ahem. It is a scary thought and a risk you run every time you load up on Microsoft points and the like. I would hope that you would be able to play stuff you downloaded as long as you like on whichever system, and if not, allow you to download them to your PC if the "system" shuts down. I buy a lot of shit on Steam, so my mind is at ease (somewhat) knowing that I will be able to play my stuff for as long as I can(even though it is yet to be seen. Thank god).

Sucks about the people that bought the music from walmart. Another case of drm hurting legitimate customers.

[Spasm]

There ought to be legislation that says, if you're turning off your servers permanently, you must release the server code into the public domain. Also, clients should be patched to allow custom master server addresses.

[ZombieSupaStar]

There ought to be legislation that says, if you're turning off your servers permanently, you must release the server code into the public domain. Also, clients should be patched to allow custom master server addresses.

i think eventually they probably will, i mean isnt it basically theft if you agree to merchant terms of ownership and then they yank away what they gave you? (unless of course in the EULA it says "when we turn it off, your fucked LOLOLOLOLOL"....paraphrased of course).

[Nikorasu]

The case of wal-mart isn't the first time this has happened. I believe it was Yahoo's service that went down a while back and left people who didn't know how to strip DRM with no way to listen to their music.
Even without DRM the nature of technology means there will never be a 100% guaranteed way to run old games on modern hardware. Consoles die, as do PC components. PC technology evolves and eventually becomes incompatible with older operating systems (has anyone tried getting DOS to run on a modern usb motherboard? i'm actually genuinely curious if this is possible). The only way is through user created emulators and hacks, and those are never guaranteed either. No matter what, if you want to play 15-20 year old games, you're going to have to do some work.
Regarding DRM, its the same thing, a time delayed limitation, only much more volatile and unnecessary. The argument has been made, but I don't think their can be a middle ground on this. As long as companies use DRM they will justify it by employing increasingly complex schemes that put us right back where we started.

[Warm Machine]

Before they finally shut down the drm servers they should release code that strips out the DRM.

[Ranger X]

Welcome to "you're not really owning what you buy lol" digital era.

Enjoy your stay.

Each time i see a thread like this it reminds myself how like 5-10 years ago i was waiting for it to happen.

[loosus]

In terms of 100% digital media, what the hell DO you do?

On the one hand, you don't want people copying your shit left and right. Sometimes, this is a point I don't think the hippie-age GAF hive mind is able to grasp.

On the other hand, you don't want the extreme inconveniences and the scenarios that the OP describes to happen, either.

So, publishers could release games with no DRM and trust that consumers will not do anything illegal -- which has already been shown not to be possible.

Or, publishers can put even the slightest DRM in place and risk the scenario of the OP.

So, which is it?

I think the best solution at this time, honestly, is physical media rather than digital.

[stressboy]

One bright shining example of why I never want physical media to go away.

[Lostconfused]

Its all fun and games until you realize the world might end tomorrow, and its tomorrow if you are lucky and not in the next hour. So you know, get ready for the coming apocalypse and all that.

[loosus]

Its all fun and games until you realize the world might end tomorrow, and its tomorrow if you are lucky and not in the next hour. So you know, get ready for the coming apocalypse and all that.

what

[DarienA]

I think Wal Mart deserves a little more credit than just leaving ppl swinging.... I don't know how Yahoo handled it but I received this email from Wal Mart:

Important Information About Your Digital Music Purchases We hope you are enjoying the increased music quality/bitrate and the improved usability of Walmart's MP3 music downloads. We began offering MP3s in August 2007 and have offered only DRM (digital rights management) -free MP3s since February 2008. As the final stage of our transition to a full DRM-free MP3 download store, Walmart will be shutting down our digital rights management system that supports protected songs and albums purchased from our site. If you have purchased protected WMA music files from our site prior to Feb 2008, we strongly recommend that you back up your songs by burning them to a recordable audio CD. By backing up your songs, you will be able to access them from any personal computer. This change does not impact songs or albums purchased after Feb 2008, as those are DRM-free. Beginning October 9, we will no longer be able to assist with digital rights management issues for protected WMA files purchased from Walmart.com. If you do not back up your files before this date, you will no longer be able to transfer your songs to other computers or access your songs after changing or reinstalling your operating system or in the event of a system crash. Your music and video collections will still play on the originally authorized computer. Thank you for using Walmart.com for music downloads. We are working hard to make our store better than ever and easier to use.

[Barkley's Justice]

this is a huge concern of mine, for sure. but let's say in 10 years i want to play castle crashers and there is just no conceivable legal way to do so on the xbox 1080, i'm fairly certain more "subterranean" means will be available. it sucks in one regard to have to go that route, but i wouldnt feel bad about it if i was a previous 360 owner of the title, to be honest.

and if companies want to continue to roll on the DRM train, well, they have to understand there is a reaction to every action, etc etc. not trying to be the bad guy but shit...

[Baryn]

Someone needs to figure out a way to backup and play digitally distributed games off disk.

I would love a PSN or XBLA emulator, and all I need to do is transfer my downloads to my PC. Then they are truly mine.

[Sgt. Killjoy]

One bright shining example of why I never want physical media to go away.

exactly. PSP games could end up like this eventually too.

[Cosmonaut X]

Then I started thinking of Nintendo Wii VC games, though I have only took the plunge on one a while ago, I think of all those gaffers who say they have overfilled the space given and are now basically in Nintendo's hands as far as ensuring that they will be able to download their games they got again.

Well, while recognising that there are issues with Nintendo's service, it is entirely possible - and simple - for gamers to back up their VC games, WiiWare and Channels to SD and then to HDD. I've got all of my downloads stored on my HDD as well as SD and if Nintendo did ever turn off their Shop servers I could quite easily copy them over and play them again.

Of course, the major issue with Nintendo's service is that the downloads are tied to your console. Whereas I can play any of my Wii disc games on any Wii, I can't do the same for my digital titles. Nintendo seem to be fairly helpful when it comes to transferring titles from failed systems, but you're once again in their hands when it comes to whether you can actually use your legit downloads if/when your system dies.

[Oldschoolgamer]

In terms of 100% digital media, what the hell DO you do? On the one hand, you don't want people copying your shit left and right. Sometimes, this is a point I don't think the hippie-age GAF hive mind is able to grasp. On the other hand, you don't want the extreme inconveniences and the scenarios that the OP describes to happen, either. So, publishers could release games with no DRM and trust that consumers will not do anything illegal -- which has already been shown not to be possible. Or, publishers can put even the slightest DRM in place and risk the scenario of the OP. So, which is it? I think the best solution at this time, honestly, is physical media rather than digital.

>.<

If a pirate is going to pirate something, they will do so even with the drm. Movies are easy as hell to pirate and I'm sure every college student has friends that could get them stuff for free, yet, some still buy the actual disc? Why? They are legitimate customers. The only time a legitimate customer will stop purchasing a product of yours, is if they find out elsewhere is providing a better product than you are. In this case, the pirates seem to be putting out shit that devs should have been doing a long ass time ago. Why treat your customers like criminals?

I think Wal Mart deserves a little more credit than just leaving ppl swinging.... I don't know how Yahoo handled it but I received this email from Wal Mart:

You can do the same thing with itunes, and it messes with the quality of the sound, iirc.

[CTLance]

One bright shining example of why I never want physical media to go away.

...and then we get nice DRM like Spores' securom that stopy you from playing unless you establish an internet connection or phone a hotline once. I look forward to five years from now when all those hotlines, servers and authentification algorithms have gone the way of the dodo. You have the disc, but it's pretty much worthless unless you're willing to circumvent its anti piracy measures.

You can do the same thing with itunes, and it messes with the quality of the sound, iirc.

It only does that if you decide to rip that CD and encode the songs with a lossy codec. Trying to encode a file with a lossy codec that was at one time already compressed with a lossy codec results in a severe loss of quality.

That's why if you truly value your sound you go with lossless codecs, like FLAC, Apple lossless, or Microsoft lossless audio (amongst others). While MP3s are nice and small and everything.... they're lossy. Buy a CD and you get better audio quality. True, you and me both probably won't ever hear the difference between a 256kbit MP3 and a highquality Audio CD, but hey.... it's a matter of principle. Why pay good money for an inferior product?

[Guled]

The thing with digital media is that somehow there there will be a way to play it even 50 years from now. You can't say the same for physical media

[A Black Falcon]

There ought to be legislation that says, if you're turning off your servers permanently, you must release the server code into the public domain. Also, clients should be patched to allow custom master server addresses.

I agree... and this has actually happened before, for some PC games. Sometimes it's not that people managed to hack the games and figure out how to make a server, but that the company actually released the information to at least a select group of community members (interested in running a server), who then got the game back online...

For instance, that's exactly what happened with NetStorm after ActiVision shut down the official servers.

But yes, this is a very good point. Digital-access-only games are very, very suspect, long-term... how do you know you'll be able to access it in the future, like you do with a physical media game? You don't, plain and simple. And many games have had their online servers turned off with no solutions offered to fix the problem.

[CTLance]

The thing with digital media is that somehow there there will be a way to play it even 50 years from now. You can't say the same for physical media

Eh? I'd say the chance of my CD collection suddenly being infected by aluminium-eating funghi is about as high as the chance of a large-scale meteorite slaying my dog in my front yard in front of my very eyes. Pressed CDs/DVDs (NOT their respective recordable cousins, mind you!) are quite sturdy and will last for a long time.

I'd go as far as to bet that all my optical media will still work when their respective DRM servers are taken offline.

I have much less faith in harddrives. Moving parts are always bad indicators for longevity.

[A Black Falcon]

Eh? I'd say the chance of my CD collection suddenly being infected by aluminium-eating funghi is about as high as the chance of a large-scale meteorite slaying my dog in my front yard in front of my very eyes. Pressed CDs/DVDs (NOT their respective recordable cousins, mind you!) are quite sturdy and will last for a long time. I'd go as far as to bet that all my optical media will still work when their respective DRM servers are taken offline. I have much less faith in harddrives. Moving parts are always bad indicators for longevity.

Yeah... anything solid-state is definitely the most reliable.

[Guled]

Eh? I'd say the chance of my CD collection suddenly being infected by aluminium-eating funghi is about as high as the chance of a large-scale meteorite slaying my dog in my front yard in front of my very eyes. Pressed CDs/DVDs (NOT their respective recordable cousins, mind you!) are quite sturdy and will last for a long time. I'd go as far as to bet that all my optical media will still work when their respective DRM servers are taken offline. I have much less faith in harddrives. Moving parts are always bad indicators for longevity.

but data on your harddrive is stored somewhere else and you will be able to access it. Something happens to your DVD then thats it. Let me say this, would you want something important to you that you want to keep for a long time pressed on a disk, or uploaded online?

[loosus]

The only time a legitimate customer will stop purchasing a product of yours, is if they find out elsewhere is providing a better product than you are.

Hey, get in the fucking real world first and THEN come back and post. You know that's not fucking true.

[Oldschoolgamer]

Hey, get in the fucking real world first and THEN come back and post. You know that's not fucking true.

What's not true about that sentence you quoted?

[MrHicks]

the day physical media gets completely replaced by "download buying" is the day i quit gaming alltogether

hardcopies or bust

[Monsterland]

The case of wal-mart isn't the first time this has happened. I believe it was Yahoo's service that went down a while back and left people who didn't know how to strip DRM with no way to listen to their music.

A similiar thing happened with google video.

This is why I won't ever buy multiplayer games on any of the current consoles. When any of these corporations decide they've had enough. They can flick a switch and shut down all of your games. What are you going to do about it, create an internet petition? good luck with that.

[wmat]

You guys bought all that shit, now deal with it.

The only DRM-related stuff I have is Steam games and the Spore Creature Creator. And I regret fully having contributed to this dumb scheme.

Bottom line: Don't buy DRM-infested games.

[Guled]

You guys bought all that shit, now deal with it. The only DRM-related stuff I have is Steam games and the Spore Creature Creator. And I regret fully having contributed to this dumb scheme. Bottom line: Don't buy DRM-infested games.

Steam has awesome DRM

[wmat]

Steam has awesome DRM

Compared to what's out there, yes. On an absolute binary scale, FALSE

You know, they have DRM, that's the problem, no matter how good it is.

[Guled]

Compared to what's out there, yes. On a binary scale, FALSE

has it ever messed with your gaming experience?

[wmat]

has it ever messed with your gaming experience?

We're talking about what's going to happen in 10 years or so if I want to play HL2E1, starting with a blank installation of WinXP on a computer from today.

I'm happy with what Steam is doing for me now. That doesn't change that there is a big issue lurking, waiting to fuck up my games.

I can still play Bubble Bobble on a C64 if I can find one that still works and the diskette still does its job.

Why am I explaining this? It's an obvious issue, and it always has been.

I bought my Steam games in the full conscience I would have to say goodbye to them at some point in time. And that sucks.

[Dizzy]

I'd like to know how it's going to affect my XBLA games. Most importantly will those be available on the next xbox? I would guess that they would have to be but you never know...

The problem is that they're tied to one console. You can swap them between HDD after HDD if you're worried about them breaking, but they can only ever work on one console and we all know how reliable the 360 hardware is.

So lets say that some of these XBLA aren't on he next xbox, will Microsoft keep them up as downloads on the 360 marketplace forever? I just can't see that happening. They'd have to shut it down at some point. Then you've lost all your games as soon as the console breaks. The responsible thing to do would be to strip away the DRM as soon as those servers shut down but I don't have much faith in those large corporations doing the right thing.

Same thing for PSN.

As for Wii...don't even get me started on that. I got an extended warranty from the store I bought it at......then I got home and realized how stupid that was it was cheap so I'm not really bothered, but if I took it there I'd get a new console but then wouldn't be able to send in Wii to get the VC games put onto the new console. This is why I've stopped buying VC games. I've bought 3 points cards and that's it. If the Wii broke outside of Nintendo's waranty I'd lose £45 worth of games but I guess it's better than paying £180 or however much it will be for a new console.

[Guled]

We're talking about what's going to happen in 10 years or so if I want to play HL2E1, starting with a blank installation of WinXP on a computer from today. I'm happy with what Steam is doing for me now. That doesn't change that there is a big issue lurking, waiting to fuck up my games. I can still play Bubble Bobble on a C64 if I can find one that still works and the diskette still does its job. Why am I explaining this? It's an obvious issue, and it always has been. I bought my Steam games in the full conscience I would have to say goodbye to them at some point in time. And that sucks.

well most people would not have the disc version of game 10 years after they buy it. Also, I don't think Valve will be gone 10 years from now, they have been around for 12 years and are they are still growing.

[MrHicks]

well most people would not have the disc version of game 10 years after they buy it.

people threw away all their psx games?

[wmat]

well most people would not have the disc version of game 10 years after they buy it. Also, I don't think Valve will be gone 10 years from now, they have been around for 12 years and are they are still growing.

Atari 1990 vs Atari 2000. That's all I'm saying.

I still have the diskettes for Kings Quest IV and for Space Quest III hiding somewhere. And multiple other games for computers that technically should be extinct in about 5 years because the chips will die for good and they aren't manufactured anymore.

[epmode]

We're talking about what's going to happen in 10 years or so if I want to play HL2E1, starting with a blank installation of WinXP on a computer from today.

Valve execs have mentioned in several interviews that if/when Steam dies, they will release unlock keys to remove the DRM so that the games can be played even without authentication servers.

Valve is about the only company I trust with a statement like that.

[Dot50Cal]

We're talking about what's going to happen in 10 years or so if I want to play HL2E1, starting with a blank installation of WinXP on a computer from today. I'm happy with what Steam is doing for me now. That doesn't change that there is a big issue lurking, waiting to fuck up my games. I can still play Bubble Bobble on a C64 if I can find one that still works and the diskette still does its job. Why am I explaining this? It's an obvious issue, and it always has been. I bought my Steam games in the full conscience I would have to say goodbye to them at some point in time. And that sucks.

Valve has said if they ever go under they'll release a patch to Steam that'll let you play your games without authorization.

[Guled]

I said most people, they ethier lose, sell, ruin, or trade them away

[wmat]

Valve has said if they ever go under they'll release a patch to Steam that'll let you play your games without authorization.

You'll still need Steam then. What if that is not existent anymore as well?

I still have GFA Basic text adventure games from 1987, problem is the appropriate interpreter doesn't exist anymore.

And how am I supposed to get the games? Will they ship me the discs when they go under? Hmmm.

[MrHicks]

Valve execs have mentioned in several interviews that if/when Steam dies, they will release unlock keys to remove the DRM so that the games can be played even without authentication servers. Valve is about the only company I trust with a statement like that.

then you still have to burn the game on an ugly unofficial disc and box
your game looks more like a pirated version like that its just stupid

and if you don't burn your game before you computer goes bust you just lost your game completely

[Ikuu]

then you still have to burn the game on an ugly unofficial disc and box your game looks more like a pirated version like that its just stupid and if you don't burn your game before you computer goes bust you just lost your game completely

Oh no, I won't have some boxart I'll never look at anyway.

[Spasm]

This isn't just about DRM, but online-only games as well.

One bright shining example of why I never want physical media to go away.

So what good is that Warhawk disc when Sony pulls the plug on the servers?

[MrHicks]

Oh no, I won't have some boxart I'll never look at anyway.

i care about having a nice disc/manuel/box combo
something to put onto your closet as part of your collection

i don't want my game collection to be some code in cyberspace guarded and managed by a third party

i'll never buy anything dlc just because of those factors

[sankt-Antonio]

i care about having a nice disc/manuel/box combo something to put onto your closet as part of your collection i don't want my game collection to be some code in cyberspace guarded and managed by a third party

.

[shuri]

If the games companies dont come up with something if they suddenly close, the underground will or already came up with a solution.

Stop being such dramatic manbabies.

[RocketDarkness]

i care about having a nice disc/manuel/box combo something to put onto your closet as part of your collection i don't want my game collection to be some code in cyberspace guarded and managed by a third party i'll never buy anything dlc just because of those factors

This is the reason why I almost never buy used unless everything is available, in nice condition, and isn't an extra $5 for a shiny new copy. It's also why I'm willing to pay the original price for new copies of old games.

Short of me throwing them away, I'll probably still have my entire collection of games intact for decades to come.

EDIT: Though I am willing to buy DLC, depending on the circumstances.