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AndyD
aka andydumi
(12-16-2008, 03:42 AM)
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Suit: Microsoft knew Xbox could damage discs

A document unsealed in a lawsuit last week suggests that Microsoft employees knew before putting the Xbox 360 on the market in November 2005 that the video game console could damage game discs.

Several ongoing lawsuits charge that the Xbox 360 is defectively designed because tilting or swiveling the video game console can scratch game discs playing inside.

Plaintiffs in a July 2007 case filed in U.S. District Court in Seattle are seeking class-action status on behalf of all those who purchased Xbox 360s.

Most of the declarations in the court case are sealed, but a newly unsealed motion (read it here) seeking class status quotes from the sealed declarations of Microsoft employees.

The motion says that Microsoft knew that when the Xbox 360 was reoriented with a disc playing inside, the disc could be damaged.

It quotes Hiroo Umeno, a Microsoft program manager, who said in a declaration, "This is ... information that we as a team, optical disc drive team, knew about. When we first discovered the problem in September or October (2005), when we got a first report of disc movement, we knew this is what's causing the problem."

After the Xbox 360 launch, according to the motion, Microsoft sent a team of engineers to stores across the country "to investigate complaints that the Xbox 360 was routinely scratching discs during demonstrations."

Microsoft determined that if the console was tilted, discs inside became "unchucked" and collided with the drive's optical pickup unit, leading to deep circular gouges on the discs.

Because of the complaints, Microsoft considered three possibilities to fix the problem, but rejected all of them.

One solution would have increased the magnetic field of the disc holder, but it was dismissed because it could have interfered with the disc opening and closing mechanism. Another solution -- slowing the speed at which the disc was rotated -- was rejected because it could have increased the time required for a game to load. A third solution, installing small bumpers, was too expensive. It would have cost between $35 million and $75 million.

Eventually, Microsoft did institute an Xbox 360 disc replacement program that sends out new discs to customers if their discs are damaged for any reason. The program only applies to Microsoft titles and costs $20 per disc.

A warning was also included in the product manual, telling customers to "remove discs before moving the console or tilting it between the horizontal and vertical positions."

But, according to the motion, Microsoft employees deemed in an internal e-mail that the warning was insufficient.

A warning label was also affixed to the Xbox 360's disc drive.

More than 55,000 customers have complained about broken discs as of April 30, according to a Microsoft employee quoted in the motion.

Plaintiffs in the case also include a statement from an engineering consultant who says that other electronics makers, including Sony and Nintendo, almost always incorporate the possibility that a console could be moved while a disc is rotating inside in the designs of their products. Read his declaration here.

A Microsoft spokeswoman said Friday the company would not comment on pending litigation.

The Xbox 360 has been hampered by hardware glitches. In July 2007, Microsoft took a $1 billion pretax charge to extend the Xbox 360 warranty to three years from the purchase date for cases where hardware failures are accompanied by a red flashing in the "ring of light" around the console's power button.

At VentureBeat, Dean Takahashi has detailed how Microsoft prior to the launch of the Xbox 360 knew that the console could fail but went ahead with the release anyway so that it could get its console quickly to market.

Posted by Joseph Tartakoff at December 14, 2008 5:45 p.m.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/m...asp?source=rss

Via Engadget.

Might these suits actually have some solid foundations?
Hootie
I may be a racist, but
at least I'm not black.
(12-16-2008, 03:43 AM)
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A fucking myth? Most of my games have been scratched to the point where I have to load the game 3-4 times to work, only to get a DRE minutes later.
Tobor
Look!
A crack addict with a tag!
(12-16-2008, 03:43 AM)
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I guess it's true in some cases, but 2 years and 3 machines later, I've never had a scratched disk.
jobber
Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
(12-16-2008, 03:44 AM)
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My 1st replacement 360 destroyed my copy of MLB2K8 in less than a day. Looked like a cat was fighting with it.
itxaka
Defeatist
(12-16-2008, 03:44 AM)
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My first xbox scratched discs. My second one has already leave a mark on one of them, nothing bad thought. So yes, I can believe this claims.

My fucking dead rising microsoft, do you hear me! It's has this kind of middle ring on it, like it's from factory or something :_(


EDIT: OH! "reoriented" being the keyword in this. Fucking common sense please, I thought this was about the problems from the first units scratching disc while stationary _
Adamant
Banned
(12-16-2008, 03:47 AM)
I've had 5 different 360s counting my backup unit, never a single disk scratch.

I think some people might be mistaking natural marks on the DVDs that can look like a ring of scratches, but that's just the way it's pressed.

Obviously it at least happens sometimes.
shuri
Banned
(12-16-2008, 03:47 AM)
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What is this. Moving a cd-based console can cause scratches. NO REALLY?!?!?!?!?!??!?
RSTEIN
Comics, serious business!
(12-16-2008, 03:47 AM)
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I don't think it's a myth... know lots and lots of people with scratched discs. I've gone through three 360s but never had a scratched disc.
FLEABttn
Banned
(12-16-2008, 03:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by AndyD

Might these suits actually have some solid foundations?

Mine has scratched 2 of my games.

I haven't bought any new 360 games or even played my 360 for a year now. Guess why.
PepsimanVsJoe
(12-16-2008, 03:49 AM)
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I've had two 360s die on me but no scratched discs. *shrug*
Odious Tea
Member
(12-16-2008, 03:50 AM)

Originally Posted by shuri

What is this. Moving a cd-based console can cause scratches. NO REALLY?!?!?!?!?!??!?

Yeah. Doesn't it only scratch games if you move the 360 while the disc is in and the console is on?
TJ Spyke
Member
(12-16-2008, 03:51 AM)
My Xbox 360 (manufactured in June 2008) has never scratched any of my discs.
FLEABttn
Banned
(12-16-2008, 03:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by R Squared

Yeah. Doesn't it only scratch games if you move the 360 while the disc is in and the console is on?

Nope.
Adamant
Banned
(12-16-2008, 03:52 AM)
I just thought of something. For those who have gotten scratched 360 disks, besides moving your console while a disk is spinning which we all know is bad : Did you ever press the eject button on the 360 while in a game (disk is spun up), I always go to the dashboard before ejecting a disk, I usually also leave no disk in the tray when turning the system off.

Not saying it's always your fault, but I wonder if this might be a factor.
dfyb
Banned
(12-16-2008, 03:53 AM)
it was never a myth... it was just fanboys trying to act like things never happened.
Psychotext
Member
(12-16-2008, 03:53 AM)
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I was under the impression that this got proved a long time ago when it was found that drives were missing the spacing pads (which stop discs getting scratched).
Keyser Soze
Member
(12-16-2008, 03:54 AM)
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PepsimanVsJoe
(12-16-2008, 03:55 AM)
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Now that I think about it the only time I've dealt with scratched discs is after a particular game pushes me to the edge and I key the crap out of it before snapping it in half.
LakeEarth
Member
(12-16-2008, 03:55 AM)
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Its true, it has happened to me twice.
bigdaddygamebot
(12-16-2008, 03:57 AM)
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I'm on number five as far as replacements go. Never had a scratched disc.

Then again, I'm not a fuckin' tool that moves my console WHILE a disc is being played. It's frightening that some of these geniuses are out there breeding. I guess when GTA IV gets scratched while your twelve year old is playing it, and you had to move the Xbox 360 because someone knocked over the jar of poison that's next to the baby's crib which is sitting underneath the Xbox 360...

...things break.
dfyb
Banned
(12-16-2008, 03:57 AM)

Originally Posted by Psychotext

I was under the impression that this got proved a long time ago when it was found that drives were missing the spacing pads (which stop discs getting scratched).

this proved why 360 was designed poorly to allow scratches with movement. most other devices, even disc drives in PCs, use padding to keep the disc safe even with movement. but some 360's scratch discs even when staying still -- the reading lense literally drives itself into the disc. there's two seperate problems -- one effecting all 360's (move your 360 at all, expect your disc to be gone) and one effecting some ( some 360 units will eat your disc regardless).
Kibbles
Member
(12-16-2008, 03:57 AM)
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Don't move your Xbox 360 while it's on with a disc in it. Common fuckin sense.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
(12-16-2008, 03:58 AM)
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I eventually got rid of my 360 because of this. Once I set the system up, I never moved it in fear of the RROD. Then I started getting disc read errors, particularly on BO4 and GoW. I noticed very tiny smudges on the disc apparently from the lens touching it. The thing is, I never moved the console. It was completely 100% stationary. I know the main cause of scratched discs are moving the system while a disc is in it, but I think it's possible Microsoft might know about this as well. I've never been more careful with a console only to have it break on me anyway.
AndyD
aka andydumi
(12-16-2008, 04:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by R Squared

Yeah. Doesn't it only scratch games if you move the 360 while the disc is in and the console is on?

No. Sometimes it does it for no reason. There's no rhyme or reason or pattern that people figured out, simply because sometimes you don't know when it happened.
Rash
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:02 AM)
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My friend's copy of COD4 was damaged beyond usability by his X360.
comrade
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by AndyD

No. Sometimes it does it for no reason. There's no rhyme or reason or pattern that people figured out, simply because sometimes you don't know when it happened.

Yeah. One of my replacements was scratching discs. The console never moved from the entertainment center but sure enough my games were starting to develop a deep groove around the discs. Replaced it with another 360 and the problem stopped.
Mindlog
(12-16-2008, 04:07 AM)
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The female orgasm. That's the myth.
ILOVEASIANS
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:10 AM)
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I have personal experience with this. My first 360 destroyed two copies of Double Agent and one copy of Gears of War thanks to scratching. Finally called to have them fix it, only to have them claim I was moving my 360 while it was running, which I wasn't. Eventually did get a replacement system though, and have had no problems since.
Cirekiller
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kibbles

Don't move your Xbox 360 while it's on with a disc in it. Common fuckin sense.

Does moving your Wii or PS3 around scratch the discs?
theultimo
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:12 AM)
Had this happen to my Dead Rising.


Had to buy a new console in the end.
Cobra84
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:12 AM)
Scratched disks were the least of my brother's worries, his was cracking his disks from the inside out. It might have been caused by the constant heating from the GPU right below.

Microsoft tried to blame it on moving the console, but I knew they were full of shit. Oddly enough, they replaced the console, but refused to take any blame for the disks.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
(12-16-2008, 04:17 AM)
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Here's the thread I was talking about from December of 2005, right after the system launched, people were complaining about it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Microsoft knew there was some type of defect.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74746
jobber
Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
(12-16-2008, 04:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kibbles

Don't move your Xbox 360 while it's on with a disc in it. Common fuckin sense.

Yeah that would be awesome IF that was true. It was the disc tray. You could see the circles it made in a few of my games and no, I never moved it while it was on.
a Master Ninja
for whom the Bell trolls
(12-16-2008, 04:19 AM)
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My launch 360 killed two copies of Gears 1. The game streams constantly and my drive apparently was a little off balance. No problems with the Falcon 360 that replaced it, and now game installs eliminate the need to work my disc drive overtime.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
(12-16-2008, 04:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kibbles

Don't move your Xbox 360 while it's on with a disc in it. Common fuckin sense.

How is that common sense? I've never had anything that scratched the disk if I moved it. Also, it's not like I'm moving it a lot. It's usually just a slight bump and I hit it on accident and I hear the awful noise.
ouchx100
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:37 AM)
My 360 hasnt scratched anything yet. Im even one of those idiots thats moves it while its on too. Only because my pc and 360 share the only ethernet cable that runs to this room and I cant see to plug it into the 360 without moving it a bit.

Sucks for those that want to use it in the car though. I used to take my ps2 on roadtrips and play it in the car.:D
Larson Conway
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:38 AM)
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Shouldn't even be a question. My Lost Odyssey CD got scratched because I re-placed my 360 while the disc was spinning.
Kaako
Felium Defensor
(12-16-2008, 04:39 AM)
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What myth? I thought this was kinda common. Happened to me twice and my friend. :(
Bluth54
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:46 AM)
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My old 360 scratched 2 of my brother's games. It actually made a crack that went out about an inch from the inner ring on one of his games. That DVD drive was a problem though, for over a year it would at times refuse to open unless you pressed the open disk button more then once.

My refurbished unit seems to have a much better DVD drive, and I bought a 120GB hard drive to ensure I wont have to worry about scratched disks again.
ShowDog
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:53 AM)
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I know some people who have had them scratched without moving the console... you're just playing a game, and BAM, awful noises resulting in scratches. I was there for it once. Luckily mine has never done it, and since all I ever play is COD4 online I have the game installed anyways.
tak
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:54 AM)
The article is talking about a different disc scratching issue then I think most people in this thread are talking about. The article is talking about the disc scratching that happens when you move the console well it is on. They probably are talking directly about this issue since they provide warnings on the console itself and manual to not move it well it's on.
VibratingDonkey
Member
(12-16-2008, 04:58 AM)
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My second 360 (IIRC) went *GA-GACK* when playing Saints Row. Actually got the game replaced by Microsoft. They had gone out and bought a used copy in a store. Have you ever heard of such a thing? And that's not even half of it. Customer support was as completely bizarre as it was awesome back then.

So of course that had to stop. I later noticed this 360 had also scratched Viva Pinata into oblivion. At this point there were no more happy fun times, they simply referred you to the standard disc exchange program and boring policies. Was cheaper to buy the game new.

So anyhow... hell no it's a myth. And you do not need to bump, tilt or move your 360 for it to happen. Installing those rubber pads, now that's common sense. And they did on later models I think.
Deadly
Member
(12-16-2008, 05:03 AM)
Definitely not a myth. My Lost Odyssey disc-1 isn't even playable anymore due to it being so scratched and it's only been in the console or in the box.
Emotions
Member
(12-16-2008, 05:04 AM)
I think it is common on the old models. My Core system scracthed my Orange Box and cracked and scratched my Vesperia disk. Thank god i realised this and traded it in for an Arcade pack the Jasper ones with Sega Superstars Tennis.
On a side note Xbox360 dvd's look and are extremely fragile definately weaker than PS3,PS2 or Wii discs. Dunno why though....

Tip: When switching or replacing a disc when it's on in the xbox360 always go to the dashboard. It is safer.

Originally Posted by Bluth54

My old 360 scratched 2 of my brother's games. It actually made a crack that went out about an inch from the inner ring on one of his games.

That's exactly what happened to my Tales of Vesperia disc. i had to rebuy it :(
DongHungLong
Banned
(12-16-2008, 05:14 AM)

Originally Posted by Kibbles

Don't move your Xbox 360 while it's on with a disc in it. Common fuckin sense.

Friends where drunk one night and my PS3 got pushed off a 5 foot tall shelf, slammed on the ground, and landed up side down. The game kept playing just fine although I quickly hit the PS button to shutdown console. No scratches whatsoever on the disk.
Hazaro
relies on auto-aim
(12-16-2008, 05:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by DongHungLong

Friends where drunk one night and my PS3 got pushed off a 5 foot tall shelf, slammed on the ground, and landed up side down. The game kept playing just fine although I quickly hit the PS button to shutdown console. No scratches whatsoever on the disk.

It's a Blu-Ray. Basically coated with a layer of Nintendium. :lol
sprocket
Banned
(12-16-2008, 05:24 AM)
what do you mean " not a myth"? Its common knowledge any slight bump can ruin a disk when its spinning.

I bought 2 copies of perfect dark 0 because of it.
Giard
Member
(12-16-2008, 05:25 AM)
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I bought a lot of movies and games that had this "middle ring scratch" new, sealed and everything...so I'm not sure if the 360's to blame.
DongHungLong
Banned
(12-16-2008, 05:26 AM)

Originally Posted by Hazaro

It's a Blu-Ray. Basically coated with a layer of Nintendium. :lol

I was more amazed at the PS3 still working after a 5 foot drop to concrete on my basement floor. But both survived x_x.
MrDaravon
Member
(12-16-2008, 05:30 AM)
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Chalk me up as well for getting the circular ring scratch around the center of the disc, my first 360 scratched all of my games, although luckily not to the point where they wouldn't play, except for PSU which it totally fucked. This system was NEVER moved. That 360 wound up dying due to the disc drive though, so I suppose that makes sense.

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