NeoGAF

Zyzyxxz · 07:19 AM

(Picture coutresy of Deadbeef)

Neogaf Automotive Discussion Thread

The banner is just a makeshift one, maybe somebody can design a good one that incorporates the GAF logo as well?

I noticed that occasionally we have threads that pop up about a new car model coming out or asking for purchasing or repairing advice. I really like discussing cars and I think its long past due for an official automotive thread so here is my attempt at it. I know there is a automotive racing thread but that is pretty dead these days and its more for the sport than cars. I think there are plenty of car fans like me here and I'd like to discuss about the latest news or just appreciate car designs in general. So I'll hopefully this thread doesn't get buried too easily.

What to discuss: anything car related, talk about car designs, future innovations, hopes and expectations, car buying advice, or just post pics of your ride if you want to show off.

I’m not going moderate anything but preferably a few guidelines would help keep this thread from becoming a mess of imports vs domestics.

- Please no blatant flaming of car brands without detailing your opinion, let's keep discussion civil but at the same time I'm not for restricting people's expressions.

Where to get your news
Many of us probably keep updated already through the use of automotive websites so keep on eye on sites such as Autoblog and Inside Line if you don’t already.

Now for some car pron:

And here we go...

robox · (03-03-2009, 08:18 AM)

heh, i was just looking through a magazine with a feature on this car. going, hey, i recognize that colour and that v-mount set up. not my favourite car in the mag though...

Core407 · (03-03-2009, 08:30 AM)

Is this not the sexiest rear end on a car?

Zyzyxxz · (03-03-2009, 10:15 PM)

when I was younger I really didn't like the Alfa Romeo front ends but as time passed it really grew on me.

I can't say Top Gear didn't influence my development in liking them also.

I'm really warming up to the new 159 too.

iidesuyo · (03-03-2009, 10:26 PM)

What do you think of the Renault Laguna Coupé?

I've always had a crush for French coupés, the Peugeot 407 is very neat, too.

mr stroke · (03-03-2009, 10:31 PM)

Nice thread...

Lets all hope Ford sticks with this concept for the 2011 Euro/US Focus

Zyzyxxz · (03-03-2009, 10:46 PM)

Originally Posted by iidesuyo

What do you think of the Renault Laguna Coupé?

http://www.laguna-coupe.com/cms/rena...xterieur-3.jpg

its the first Renault I like! For the most part I don't give much concern to French cars but dang this one really strikes a design chord with me! This is the first I've seen of this!

I'm an ass man, in terms of cars, for some reason I'm in love with beautiful rear shots of cars.

In terms of front design its not bad, but feels like it rips off of several car designs - maybe a little Ferrari 599, 370Z, and a touch of Aston Martin all in one. Give it time I could come to like it.

Confused101 · (03-03-2009, 10:48 PM)

I guess I could use some advice.

I test drove a '09 Honda CR-V EX over the weekend and completely fell in love. It's an enormous upgrade from my current '98 Explorer Sport. (Well, anything would be an enormous upgrade, but...ya know.) I really didn't have any of my financial stuff in order so, while he quoted me a price which was $2,500 less than MSRP, I proceeded to walk out telling the salesman I needed to get some things straightened out and asked for his card and literature on the CR-V.

Was this wise? Should I have tried to talk him down right then? Should I go to other dealerships and see what kind of deal they give me then play them off one another?

Additional info: I can afford to put down between 3k and 4k. MSRP for the EX is approx 25.4k and he quoted me 22.9k.

And here's a pic just for good measure. :D

AndersTheSwede · (03-03-2009, 10:52 PM)

Bow down before the vehicle that will smoke cars costing 3 times as much:

All Hail the Impreza!

BRING BACK THE GC8 YOU FUCKING NO TASTE JAPS

Zyzyxxz · 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Confused101

I guess I could use some advice.

I test drove a '09 Honda CR-V EX over the weekend and completely fell in love. It's an enormous upgrade from my current '98 Explorer Sport. (Well, anything would be an enormous upgrade, but...ya know.) I really didn't have any of my financial stuff in order so, while he quoted me a price which was $2,500 less than MSRP, I proceeded to walk out telling the salesman I needed to get some things straightened out and asked for his card and literature on the CR-V.

Was this wise? Should I have tried to talk him down right then? Should I go to other dealerships and see what kind of deal they give me then play them off one another?

Additional info: I can afford to put down between 3k and 4k. MSRP for the EX is approx 25.4k and he quoted me 22.9k.

The new CR-V is a very good car, my cousin has one and the rdie is smooth and interior space is decent for a small SUV.

Is the 22.9K including taxes? If so thats a good deal but with the recession the way it is now it wouldn't hurt to shop around some more.

If price is a big factor you can always look for a dealership with an unsold 2008 model, those will sell for super big discounts usually.

There is nothing wrong with playing dealerships off each other, they are desperate, you know it, and whoever gives you the best price wins. You didn't agree to a price of 22.9K that was the quote, you can always go back and say, "I thought it over and it's a little too much over my budget". It may be a hassle to travel to different dealerships but its a big investment so its worth the troubles of talking to car salesman. Just give them a price you want and ask if they can get it for you and if not whats the closest they can get. If they try to use some of that profit margin bullshit and you don't want any of it then just walk out, you don't have to listen to any of it because you're the customer.

As they say in bargaining, it never hurts to ask because you got nothing to lose.

Also you may wanna check out Toyota's RAV4 also, wouldnt hurt to see if they have better discounts.

Surreal · (03-03-2009, 11:00 PM)

You guys think it would be a good idea to buy a used 2006 Lancer Evo?

Zyzyxxz · (03-03-2009, 11:03 PM)

Originally Posted by Surreal

You guys think it would be a good idea to buy a used 2006 Lancer Evo?

modified? If so depends on what is modified.

Mileage? Be sure to carfax it if you are seriously considering it! Check to make sure it hasn't been in a serious accident and see if the owner looks like a responsible guy, some EVO owners can really abuse their cars when they want to have fun.

It's a great car and good platform for upgrading so I hope the best, if you get it I hope you know how to take care of a turbocharged car.

Surreal · (03-03-2009, 11:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Zyzyxxz

modified? If so depends on what is modified.

Mileage? Be sure to carfax it if you are seriously considering it! Check to make sure it hasn't been in a serious accident and see if the owner looks like a responsible guy, some EVO owners can really abuse their cars when they want to have fun.

It's a great car and good platform for upgrading so I hope the best, if you get it I hope you know how to take care of a turbocharged car.

I was planning on buying one from the dealer because it gives me more financing options, plus some dealers have their certified used program which means I wouldn't have to deal with the headaches of repairs if it did break down. I think I just want it stock because I hear you get the most reliability that way. It will be the first time I'll ever have a car like that so I'm going to have to read about its upkeep.

Zyzyxxz · (03-03-2009, 11:20 PM)

Originally Posted by Surreal

I was planning on buying one from the dealer because it gives me more financing options, plus some dealers have their certified used program which means I wouldn't have to deal with the headaches of repairs if it did break down. I think I just want it stock because I hear you get the most reliability that way. It will be the first time I'll ever have a car like that so I'm going to have to read about its upkeep.

If you plan to keep it stock see the warranty options, once you modify even a little the warranty can be considered null. See what warranty options they have for extended used warranties.

It's still a fast and fun car to drive stock so enjoy it if you get it.

daw840 · (03-03-2009, 11:21 PM)

Originally Posted by AndersTheSwede

Bow down before the vehicle that will smoke cars costing 3 times as much:

All Hail the Impreza!

BRING BACK THE GC8 YOU FUCKING NO TASTE JAPS

Man, that makes me miss my old car.........I had a 2005 WRX. Not an STi but still fast.

You can see it here

FreezeSSC · 11:32 PM

Just saw this on another forum and thought it was absolutely sexy!

Infiniti Essence:

The Infiniti Essence is a two-seat, rear-drive concept with a hybrid powertrain that is rated at nearly 600 hp. Infiniti says the Essence shows design cues for future vehicles.

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

* Petrol Engine
o Config/No of cyls: V6
o Fuel type: Petrol
o Capacity: 3.7 l
o Power: 440 PS (434 bhp)
* Electric engine
o Type: laminated lithium-ion battery
o Battery layout: Lower trunk area
o Power: 160 PS (158 bhp)
o Torque: 500 Nm
* Performance
o Driven wheels: Rear-wheel drive
o Combined fuel economy: 8 l/100km (est)
o CO2 emission: 190g/km (est)
* Dimensions
o Number of seats: 2
o Overall Length: 4720 mm
o Overall Width: 1960 mm
o Overall Height: 1310 mm
o Wheelbase: 2800 mm
o Wheel size: 22"
o Front Overhang: 880 mm
o Rear Overhang: 1040 mm

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...009996&Ref=PH#

FreezeSSC · (03-03-2009, 11:33 PM)

Dam tried to add pics didnt realize they would come out so big, lmk if you guys want me to resize.

Zyzyxxz · 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by FreezeSSC

Just saw this on another forum and thought it was absolutely sexy!

Infiniti Essence:

holy crap its a hybrid too?

My rought calculation puts the mileage (8l / 100km) to around 29 miles per gallon in the USA.

Not bad and the interior is sexy as hell! I love the futuristic dash that kind of blends in steampunk as well.

The only thing I don't like is the outside, seems too far out there for an Infiniti but I suppose they will try to change their brand image designs.

Does it use the same twin turbo as the Nissan GT-R? If so basically all they did was add an electric motor and just made it more balls out.

Flizzzipper · (03-03-2009, 11:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Confused101

I guess I could use some advice.
Additional info: I can afford to put down between 3k and 4k. MSRP for the EX is approx 25.4k and he quoted me 22.9k.

He is quoting you invoice price which is normally a pretty good deal, but with the auto industry as it is now you will probably be able to find a better deal. I got my Accord last year at invoice price before their sales dropped 30%.

rykomatsu · (03-03-2009, 11:41 PM)

Originally Posted by FreezeSSC

The Infiniti Essence is a two-seat, rear-drive concept with a hybrid powertrain that is rated at nearly 600 hp. Infiniti says the Essence shows design cues for future vehicles.

single or twin turbo?

jon bones · (03-03-2009, 11:46 PM)

Originally Posted by rykomatsu

single or twin turbo?

if they get 600 hp out of a v6 with a single turbo, i will be VERY impressed.

also, this is nissan, they love the twin turbo

yodandy · 12:10 AM

Are mazda's good? I know nothing about cars.

I just got a 2002 protege5, I heard good things about the MPG and im a broke college student driving nothing but an old ford ranger since I was 16...it looked fun and had space...

Oh, and thread title misspell...

FreezeSSC · (03-03-2009, 11:48 PM)

Infiniti looks to make a splash in the European luxury-coupe market with the Essence concept, a curvaceous rear-drive, two-seat, hybrid-powered car.

Infiniti isn't saying it will build the Essence. But styling cues on the car will show up on future Infiniti models. :(

But the Japanese luxury brand sets its stake at a time when several other luxury automakers--including Mercedes-Benz, Aston Martin, Bentley and Rolls-Royce--are rolling out new models. Pay no attention to that crashing sound coming from world economies.

The heart of the Essence is Nissan's venerable 3.7-liter V6 engine, fitted with twin turbochargers for the concept. The engine is rated at 434 hp.

Adding to that output is an integrated starter-generator, sandwiched between the engine and transmission, that adds 158 hp. The starter-generator propels the Essence on electric power at low speeds, drawing on a lithium-ion battery pack stored in the trunk.

The sleek styling of the Essence leads to a small trunk opening. So Infiniti worked with Louis Vuitton to create a three-piece luggage set that fits the trunk space. When the trunk lid is opened, the trunk floor slides out for easy access to the luggage.

The passenger compartment in the Essence is divided in half by a center console that sweeps out from the instrument panel. The driver's area, which a black color scheme, exudes a sports-car feel with a gauge cluster that mimics high-end watches. The passenger's area, with a red color scheme, is swathed in luxury appointments.

New technologies include crash prevention for the side and rear. The system will sound a warning and automatically apply the brakes if sensors detect an object nearby when the driver attempts a lane change or when backing up.

To read more visit the AutoWeek Geneva Motor Show News and Photos section.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEVA/903039992

xBerserker · (03-03-2009, 11:53 PM)

Originally Posted by FreezeSSC

Just saw this on another forum and thought it was absolutely sexy!

Infiniti Essence:

http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/3/l...ce-concept.jpg

http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/3/l...concept_30.jpg

http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/3/l...concept_31.jpg

The Infiniti Essence is a two-seat, rear-drive concept with a hybrid powertrain that is rated at nearly 600 hp. Infiniti says the Essence shows design cues for future vehicles.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...009996&Ref=PH#

... wow, sexy!

Stinkles · (03-03-2009, 11:58 PM)

Originally Posted by yodandy

Are mazda's good? I know nothing about cars.

I just got a 2002 protege5, I heard good things about the MPG and im a broke college student driving nothing but an old ford ranger since I was 16...it looked fun and had space...

Oh, and thread title misspell...

You sir, have one of the best small cars ever made. And it's fun to drive. Enjoy.

Zyzyxxz · (03-04-2009, 12:02 AM)

Originally Posted by yodandy

Are mazda's good? I know nothing about cars.

I just got a 2002 protege5, I heard good things about the MPG and im a broke college student driving nothing but an old ford ranger since I was 16...it looked fun and had space...

Oh, and thread title misspell...

Duly noted, title fixed.

As for the Protege5 it was a really good small car for its time but never got a chance to shine, underrated by consumers.

prodystopian · (03-04-2009, 12:08 AM)

Originally Posted by Surreal

You guys think it would be a good idea to buy a used 2006 Lancer Evo?

I would highly recommend going to evolutionm.net for the forums and doing a good bit of research about what you want in an Evo. I didn't do enough research before hand, but I got lucky and ended up with a very good car.

If you already know you want to mod, you could look for a good car that is already modded, but keep in mind it will likely be easier to get a car with some problems. If you are unsure, get a bone stock car that hasn't been touched, and be wary of the mod bug.:D

I got the car a few months ago now, and I can say definitively, I love it. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

yodandy · (03-04-2009, 12:09 AM)

Originally Posted by OuterWorldVoice

You sir, have one of the best small cars ever made. And it's fun to drive. Enjoy.

Awesome, yea i'm used to driving a boring truck, so I'm having a blast, the previous owner had it all rigged for nice sound already so I'll probably add a sub, I got it for a good price, and its red, its fun as HELL to drive, in my opinion, and I heard nothing but good things about it from the few I asked, but I was just wondering what the general consensus was, woot!

Arcipello · (03-04-2009, 12:20 AM)

im afraid you will only see my posting concept cars...they are for more interesting than anything out there :D

anyone got any favourite concept cars they wish actually existed?

subzero9285 · (03-04-2009, 12:38 AM)

Good thread Zyzyxxz, I'll be sure to keep this thread updated with the latest car news, if that's cool with you.

The Geneva Motor show starts in a couple of days. Here's a sneak peak at some of the cars to be shown during the event.

The Renaultsport Megane

It's yellow fever at Renault! The French firm took the wraps off two brightly coloured new Renaultsport models at Geneva and the star of the show was this, the mighty 250bhp 2.0-litre turbocharged Megane.

Taking its styling cues from the Megane Trophy racer, it combines piano black trim with vivid paintwork and a muscular bodykit. Vast alloys and RS badges on the front air intake and boot lid finish the look off.

Under the bonnet lies a 250bhp version of the 2.0-litre turbocharged four-cylinder engine that powers the outgoing model. A 0-60mph time of less than six seconds and a 150mph top speed are likely, while the Renaultsport Megane also gets Brembo brakes and the option of a limited slip-differential for the Cup model.

Sales are due to start in October, with a price tag of £23,000. Meanwhile, Renault also took the wraps off the hot hatch Clio, which now boasts 200bhp. It will be available in standard Renaultsport trim and Cup form too, with modifications that drop its weight by 36kg.

Zyzyxxz · (03-04-2009, 12:50 AM)

Originally Posted by subzero9285

Good thread Zyzyxxz, I'll be sure to keep this thread updated with the latest car news, if that's cool with you.

The Geneva Motor show starts in a couple of days. Here's a sneak peak at some of the cars to be shown during the event.

The Renaultsport Megane

Of course, I like to discuss cars old and new.

As much as I try to like Renault I only end up forgetting about them a few minutes later, maybe if they actually sold them in the states I'd be more interested in them.

Still the Megane is one of the few Renaults I like!

250bhp in that little car! NIce.

subzero9285 · (03-04-2009, 12:57 AM)

The 2010 Audi TT RS Coupe & Roadster

RS model

2.5-liter turbocharged inline five-cylinder engine
340HP
0-100km/h in 4.6 seconds
Top speed is 155mph

Spaceman Spiff · (03-04-2009, 01:20 AM)

Can't wait to see more shots of this beast on the Geneva showfloor, the Murcielago LP 670-4 SV

[IMG]http://i41.************/rjinuc.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i41.************/29dy5c8.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i43.************/348rcpj.jpg[/IMG]

670 ps
0-100 km/h in 3.2 seconds
212 mph top speed
100 kg weight reduction over the LP 640, (the most important bit, since it's a bit of a porker)

I'll bet those idiots who blew, what, $2 million on the Reventon, which is less powerful and in all probability will be slower than the SV, must be feeling rather stupid.

Zyzyxxz · 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

Can't wait to see more shots of this beast on the Geneva showfloor, the Murcielago LP 670-4 SV

670 ps

0-100 km/h in 3.2 seconds

212 mph top speed

100 kg weight reduction over the LP 640, (the most important bit, since it's a bit of a porker)

I'll bet those idiots who blew, what, $2 million on the Reventon, which is less powerful and in all probability will be slower than the SV, must be feeling rather stupid.

In truth all supercars have shit loads of power but when you are rich its all about exclusivity of limited production cars.

I mean how many of these rich folk actually track their car and use them for what they were designed to do? Not many, most are cruisers and when it comes to Lamborghini that is the top of the line cruiser, its so sexy!

Then again $2 million is alot for a supercar and most regular people won't notice all the differences between lamborghinis so its still kind of a waste.

but then again... it looks like a Bat-Mobile!

Lion Heart · (03-04-2009, 02:19 AM)

Lambo will alway be my favourite car company, followed by Porsche than Ferrari.

Anyway, I had a second interview at Toyota today so hopefully I get the job. Im just starting out so I dont know a whole lot yet but im getting there.

Marvie_3 · (03-04-2009, 02:42 AM)

Originally Posted by Arcipello

The GT90 was so awesome in Need for Speed II...:lol I really like the Ford GT's, too bad they stopped making them(not like I could ever afford one anyway).

Zyzyxxz · (03-04-2009, 04:36 AM)

Originally Posted by Lion Heart

Lambo will alway be my favourite car company, followed by Porsche than Ferrari.

Anyway, I had a second interview at Toyota today so hopefully I get the job. Im just starting out so I dont know a whole lot yet but im getting there.

What position adn is it a contract job or a permanent position? I've heard many companies these days, including Toyota contract most of their workers.

I've always wanted to work for a car company but I guess I should have majored in engineering then.

zaxor0 · (03-04-2009, 04:57 AM)

This thread needs more e30 m3's, because they are awesome. Discuss. Unless of course, this discussion is limited to newer automobiles.

Core407 · (03-04-2009, 05:00 AM)

Every time I see the new Audi TTs, I can't help but do a double take. The change in design makes this car a stand out.

That so needs to be made. I don't care for Jeeps but that is just badass.

Zyzyxxz · (03-04-2009, 05:40 AM)

Originally Posted by zaxor0

This thread needs more e30 m3's, because they are awesome. Discuss. Unless of course, this discussion is limited to newer automobiles.
http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/attach...30m3rally.jpeg

Hell no, E30 M3's are the shit!

I so want one, and my dream would be stick the motor from the E46 M3 into it!

zhenming · (03-04-2009, 05:54 AM)

E30 custom build..... with M5 engine twinturboed......

Zyzyxxz · (03-04-2009, 06:20 AM)

Originally Posted by zhenming

E30 custom build..... with M5 engine twinturboed......
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p...x/DSC_0848.jpg

That's just plain stupid.

They cut up the body so much its barely even an E30 anymore, The V10 TT probably offsets the weight balance really badly and its just way overdone.

Classic cars like an E30 don't need to be brought in the modern times with all thoese super wide wheels and racing slicks.

And to top it off the twin turbos provide more power than that nimble little body can every handle, as if the stock 507 HP wasn't good nuff.

robox · (03-04-2009, 07:55 AM)

Originally Posted by Zyzyxxz

That's just plain stupid.

They cut up the body so much its barely even an E30 anymore, The V10 TT probably offsets the weight balance really badly and its just way overdone.

Classic cars like an E30 don't need to be brought in the modern times with all thoese super wide wheels and racing slicks.

And to top it off the twin turbos provide more power than that nimble little body can every handle, as if the stock 507 HP wasn't good nuff.

you don't really question these things. clearly, this is just an exercise in car building. i don't really see a purpose for it other than to show off. i can't think of any racing series that'll let you run that thing seriously. big power + light chassis with no regulations will make everybody else a green eyed monster. it's just gonna be a toy. or maybe even just a display model. you're right that weight balance would be severely off given the huge motor + turbo in the front combined with a heavily lightened chassis.

besides, e30 chassi are still cheap and plentiful. at least this one will get some lovin'.

PS time attack style wheels fad needs to die already.

PPS the maxed out camber amuses me.

golem · (03-04-2009, 08:27 AM)

I wonder if Madvillain ever got his M3... cuz this just showed up in my garage

woowoo!

Ela Hadrun · (03-04-2009, 10:13 AM)

Dear Car GAF:

Only one of my windshield wipers goes. The other one will on occasion randomly go halfway and then not go again. How much do you think that costs?

sincerely,

Ela

Zyzyxxz · (03-04-2009, 08:12 PM)

Originally Posted by r - b - x

you don't really question these things. clearly, this is just an exercise in car building. i don't really see a purpose for it other than to show off. i can't think of any racing series that'll let you run that thing seriously. big power + light chassis with no regulations will make everybody else a green eyed monster. it's just gonna be a toy. or maybe even just a display model. you're right that weight balance would be severely off given the huge motor + turbo in the front combined with a heavily lightened chassis.

besides, e30 chassi are still cheap and plentiful. at least this one will get some lovin'.

PS time attack style wheels fad needs to die already.

PPS the maxed out camber amuses me.

True but it just seems like a waste of money, I assume this is a shop showcasing their workmanship but in honesty who raelly cares?

When I go to car shows I see independent shops, the only thing I really remember is the car itself, I rarely ever remember the name of the shop. So IMO its a wastte of money to try and showcase this as an example of their workmanship.

Still I gotta admit it is a nicely done job.

In other news Mercedes new E-class Coupe is supposedly replacing the CLK.
pics here: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/04/g...e-class-coupe/

I don't know, it looks strange and not really like a mercedes anymore to me. Looks kinda nice but at the same time it kinda looks like a Japanese cars too.

zhenming · (03-04-2009, 08:20 PM)

2009 Mercedes-Benz SL 65 AMG Black Series... saw one of these babies at my workplace.

tarius1210 · (03-04-2009, 08:45 PM)

Originally Posted by subzero9285

The 2010 Audi TT RS Coupe & Roadster

RS model

2.5-liter turbocharged inline five-cylinder engine

340HP

0-100km/h in 4.6 seconds

Top speed is 155mph

Never a fan of the TT but this thing is a beast.

iidesuyo · (03-04-2009, 11:52 PM)

I'm going to post pics of a car that people can actually afford :D

New VW Polo. Small compact car, supposed to start at 12.000€, the BlueMotion TDI will get 3,3l/100km (67mpg).

Maybe not interesting for the US market, but in Europe it will sell very well.

Zyzyxxz · (03-05-2009, 12:46 AM)

Originally Posted by iidesuyo

I'm going to post pics of a car that people can actually afford :D

New VW Polo. Small compact car, supposed to start at 12.000€, the BlueMotion TDI will get 3,3l/100km (67mpg).

Maybe not interesting for the US market, but in Europe it will sell very well.

I'd be more interested if only VW would actually sell them in the USA. In the past the most we got from VW was the Jetta TDI (Bora? As you Euro's know it).

Only recently has the Polo been considered for the US market. Also diesel is cheap now too! Where I am its cheaper than octane 87!