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Juice
Member
(03-10-2009, 01:54 AM)
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So I'm thinking of buying a 2009 Focus without ABS, because ABS+TC costs $745 extra, an increase which makes it more sensible to just buy a Fusion (at which point I'm paying closer to $20k when I wanted to be closer to $15k)

Illustration by out-the-door prices (after employee discount/rebates):

2009 loaded Focus w/o ABS: $15,500
2009 Focus w/ ABS: $16,700
2009 similarly equipped Fusion: $18,000

Obviously if I get ABS, it'd be stupid not to get the Fusion at that price, but the wife would rather have the cute Focus. I can say that the only time we've ever had any close calls while driving have been on snowy / icy roads, and I've heard that traditional brakes + sensible pumping are usually superior to ABS in such conditions.

Other than fearing for my wife's safety, I'm also wondering how badly going no-ABS will affect resale value after the 2012 requirement that all cars come equipped with stability control.

Thoughts?
jon bones
Banned
(03-10-2009, 01:55 AM)
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I thought this was going to be about drifting.
Hitokage
Setec Astronomer
(03-10-2009, 01:57 AM)
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An ABS system will pump the brake better than any human can.
Buttchin
Member
(03-10-2009, 01:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hitokage

An ABS system will pump the brake better than any human could.


pretty much, at leas the lay person. Perhaps there is a chance lewis hamilton and company could compete but the average driver fuck no.


oh yeah fun fact. 90% of drivers would label themselves as above average drivers...
Archer
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:01 AM)
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I saw a new Fusion S on sale for $12,999 in the paper the other week. Had the basic power options and ABS. This was in Cali. For $12,9... it's a hell of a daily driver deal.

Re: ABS, why run a risk of not having it. Plus, with resale values, not having it will hurt you in the long run.

Edit... A simple search of a random Ford / Chevy dealer in Seattle... He's selling a 1LS Malibu for $13,999. Again, a very nice deal. Also has some nice trucks.

http://www.pierreautocenters.com/inv...rent=1&size=50
Last edited by Archer; 03-10-2009 at 02:05 AM.
Juice
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hitokage

An ABS system will pump the brake better than any human can.

I'm not disagreeing. I've just heard that ABS is less reliable in snow than on dry pavement. Because all the dangerous driving I've ever done is on snow, it makes me wonder whether we can live without ABS or if I'm being an idiot for even considering it.
santouras
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:03 AM)
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learn to drive and no problems
RubxQub
φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
(03-10-2009, 02:03 AM)
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Just get that Mazda 3 Juice!

GET THAT MAZDA THREE!!!
nomster
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:09 AM)
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I dont see why you'd have to get the fusion if you were spending that much. I think the focus is a better looking car, and supposedly more fun to drive.
mAcOdIn
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:12 AM)
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I prefer ABS myself. My snow experience with ABS is limited living in Texas and all but overall I like it better, I would pay the 745 bucks for it, I mean when looking at the price of a car what is 745 dollars at the end of the day?

That said, I'd really rather have AWD, but I don't think there's a Focus with that.
Freestyler
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:14 AM)
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Holy shit, they still make and are allowed to SELL cars without ABS?!

I wouldn't buy a new car if it didn't have ABS, traction control, electronic stability and at least front, side and curtain airbags.

I thought ABS would've been a legal requirement long before twin airbags were?
Juice
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by parrotbeak

I would buy ABS. But I'm an average or slightly below average driver who compensates by being defensive and cautious.

Sounds like you're slightly above average already.


Originally Posted by RubxQub

Just get that Mazda 3 Juice!

GET THAT MAZDA THREE!!!

It's a great ride, but it's a little less comfortable and spacious, and (in this illustration's prices) I'd be paying $16,700 for the privilege, also without ABS, and no SYNC--

SYNC is probably the one thing I'm most excited about at the prospect of flushing this much down the toilet, by the way.
Ginko
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:18 AM)

Originally Posted by Freestyler

Holy shit, they still make and are allowed to SELL cars without ABS?!

No shit. Get the ABS, man.
PrivateWHudson
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:29 AM)
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There's a good chance that even though the ABS is not standard, you will have trouble finding one without ABS to buy. They probably put the ABS package on 99% of the cars that roll out of the factory, and only have a handful off the barebones versions scattered throughout the country just so they can advertise "starting at under $16,000.
Diablos
(03-10-2009, 02:30 AM)
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Not trying to troll you here, but man are you a complete idiot if you don't get a vehicle with ABS. You simply cannot outdo the speed and efficiency of ABS.
Juice
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by PrivateWHudson

There's a good chance that even though the ABS is not standard, you will have trouble finding one without ABS to buy. They probably put the ABS package on 99% of the cars that roll out of the factory, and only have a handful off the barebones versions scattered throughout the country just so they can advertise "starting at under $16,000.

The opposite. Dealership is very large and < 5% of the similarly equipped foci on the lot have the ABS+TC package. Not actually very popular + Ford just recently changed the equipment/package on the line.

Originally Posted by Diablos

Not trying to troll you here, but man are you a complete idiot if you don't get a vehicle with ABS. You simply cannot outdo the speed and efficiency of ABS.

Thread is sure drawing me to that conclusion.
Burger
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by Juice

I'm not disagreeing. I've just heard that ABS is less reliable in snow than on dry pavement. Because all the dangerous driving I've ever done is on snow, it makes me wonder whether we can live without ABS or if I'm being an idiot for even considering it.

Braking in general is less reliable on snow. ABS is more reliable than you are on snow.

Get it. Traction Control could save your life.

(a professional rally driver may turn ABS off in snow and trust their skills, that doesn't extend to the rest of us).

I almost drove my car slowly into a frozen river thanks to an iced road, if my car had ABS that probably wouldn't have happened.
Pudding Tame
Member
(03-10-2009, 02:45 AM)

Originally Posted by Juice

I'm not disagreeing. I've just heard that ABS is less reliable in snow than on dry pavement. Because all the dangerous driving I've ever done is on snow, it makes me wonder whether we can live without ABS or if I'm being an idiot for even considering it.

I live in upstate New York and the ABS acts up pretty much only when you are driving faster than conditions allow and you need to make a hard stop. Don't drive like an idiot and you'll be fine.
Last edited by Pudding Tame; 03-10-2009 at 02:50 AM.
Juice
Member
(03-10-2009, 03:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Burger

Braking in general is less reliable on snow. ABS is more reliable than you are on snow.

Get it. Traction Control could save your life.

(a professional rally driver may turn ABS off in snow and trust their skills, that doesn't extend to the rest of us).

I almost drove my car slowly into a frozen river thanks to an iced road, if my car had ABS that probably wouldn't have happened.

Thanks GAF!

We agreed that we're getting ABS, regardless of whether she chooses the Focus or the Fusion, even if it seems like the extra ~$1200 for the Fusion makes it silly to pass up. Safety before finances.
SwitchBladeKneegrow
Banned
(03-10-2009, 03:11 AM)
ABS is just another thing I hate about late model cars and why I"ll continue to drive my 59' Tbird and 59' El Camino. Driving use to be a skill, and now they makes it to where the car does so much for you that people feel like they can eat, drink, smoke, and talk on the phone all at the same time. THen act surpised when they run someone the fuck over becuase they were too busy NOT DRIVING.

FUCK MODERN FUCKING CARS.

*end rant*
Juice
Member
(03-10-2009, 03:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by SwitchBladeKneegrow

FUCK MODERN FUCKING CARS.

*end rant*

Winterblink
Member
(03-10-2009, 03:14 AM)
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As a person who lives in an area of the world that frequently gets shitloads of snow during the winter (Canada!), ABS can be useless in a lot of cases. For the most part if you've pressed the brakes enough to trigger ABS you've gone too far and are basically out of control on extremely slippery surfaces.

Learning threshold braking is key rather than relying on ABS, as is learning proper downshifting techniques if using a manual to aid in braking.
Phobophile
A scientist and gentleman in the manner of Batman.
(03-10-2009, 03:24 AM)
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I bought my used 2003 Focus in 2007.

No ABS
Manual locks and windows
Tape deck

I would have never had to use the ABS, not even in winter. My tires were pretty much bald so I woulda spun out anyway.

Edit: I'd wait to see what the 2010 Focuses are gonna be like. The NA versions are supposed to be identical to the European versions, which people have raved about.
VOOK
We don't know why he keeps buying PAL, either.
(03-10-2009, 03:26 AM)
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I think you shouldn't get Air Bags either, those things take more lifes then they save.
NYR
Banned
(03-10-2009, 03:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by Juice

So I'm thinking of buying a 2009 Focus without ABS, because ABS+TC costs $745 extra, an increase which makes it more sensible to just buy a Fusion (at which point I'm paying closer to $20k when I wanted to be closer to $15k)

Illustration by out-the-door prices (after employee discount/rebates):

2009 loaded Focus w/o ABS: $15,500
2009 Focus w/ ABS: $16,700
2009 similarly equipped Fusion: $18,000

Obviously if I get ABS, it'd be stupid not to get the Fusion at that price, but the wife would rather have the cute Focus. I can say that the only time we've ever had any close calls while driving have been on snowy / icy roads, and I've heard that traditional brakes + sensible pumping are usually superior to ABS in such conditions.

Other than fearing for my wife's safety, I'm also wondering how badly going no-ABS will affect resale value after the 2012 requirement that all cars come equipped with stability control.

Thoughts?

Why don't you try to get them to throw in the ABS for free??? Or at the very least, at a discount. American car companies will give you significent discounts, nowadays...
Juice
Member
(03-10-2009, 04:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by NYR

Why don't you try to get them to throw in the ABS for free??? Or at the very least, at a discount. American car companies will give you significent discounts, nowadays...

Retiree/Employee discount == no haggling. All prices are computed.

Originally Posted by Phobophile

I bought my used 2003 Focus in 2007.

No ABS
Manual locks and windows
Tape deck

I would have never had to use the ABS, not even in winter. My tires were pretty much bald so I woulda spun out anyway.

Edit: I'd wait to see what the 2010 Focuses are gonna be like. The NA versions are supposed to be identical to the European versions, which people have raved about.

Pretty sure that's the 2011 model year, won't arrive until mid 2010. We need a car in the next couple weeks :/
Mareg
Member
(03-10-2009, 04:06 AM)
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I think your crazy just for thinking of buying a car. I can barely buy a bag of noodles... :lol
Burger
Member
(03-10-2009, 04:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by SwitchBladeKneegrow

ABS is just another thing I hate about late model cars and why I"ll continue to drive my 59' Tbird and 59' El Camino. Driving use to be a skill, and now they makes it to where the car does so much for you that people feel like they can eat, drink, smoke, and talk on the phone all at the same time. THen act surpised when they run someone the fuck over becuase they were too busy NOT DRIVING.

FUCK MODERN FUCKING CARS.

*end rant*

Get a grip. You should stop using a computer also if you are dead set on being a complete luddite.

Technology in this case is not replacing a driving skill. ABS brakes outperform what a human can perform mentally and physically, for safeties sake. Traction control is also a life saver, and not at the expense of skill.

If you are talking about shit like cruise control, then yeah, maybe. I can't think of many other modern car technologies that actually remove functions from the driver.
Burger
Member
(03-10-2009, 04:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by VOOK

I think you shouldn't get Air Bags either, those things take more lifes then they save.

Well that's just a bold faced lie.

From 1990 to 2008, the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration identified 175 fatalities as because of air bags. Most of these (104) have been children, while the rest are adults. About 3.3 million air bag deployments have occurred and the agency estimates more than 6,377 lives saved and countless injuries prevented.

*Airbags usually kill people when said occupant is not wearing a seat belt, and the airbag does its best to save the occupant by altering inflation parameters. The statistics do not say whether or not flying head first through a window into oncoming traffic would have been a better alternative.
wormstrangler
Banned
(03-10-2009, 04:20 AM)

Originally Posted by Winterblink

As a person who lives in an area of the world that frequently gets shitloads of snow during the winter (Canada!), ABS can be useless in a lot of cases. For the most part if you've pressed the brakes enough to trigger ABS you've gone too far and are basically out of control on extremely slippery surfaces.

Not that I've ever driven on ice, but I'd assume engine braking alone would lock the tires up. So ABS would have no chance.
Fuzzy
I would bang a hot farmer!
(03-10-2009, 04:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Juice

Retiree/Employee discount == no haggling. All prices are computed.

Have you tried going to a different dealership and negotiating from scratch? I used to work at a Chevy dealership and one of my co-workers bought a Venture (mini van) right before retiring and the "employee price" he was offered was more expensive than what he ended up paying for at a different dealership by just walking in and negotiating. The best part was that the van he bought at the other dealership came from ours. :lol
SwitchBladeKneegrow
Banned
(03-10-2009, 04:40 AM)

Originally Posted by Burger

Get a grip. You should stop using a computer also if you are dead set on being a complete luddite.

Technology in this case is not replacing a driving skill. ABS brakes outperform what a human can perform mentally and physically, for safeties sake. Traction control is also a life saver, and not at the expense of skill.

If you are talking about shit like cruise control, then yeah, maybe. I can't think of many other modern car technologies that actually remove functions from the driver.

ABS isn't a bad thing in particular, but I'm just saying it not NECESSARY. I Haven't owned a car newer than 1963 in about 8 years, and I've been fine. I've also never been in a wreck that was my fault or had a ticket. THe one time I got hit was because the girl was too preoccupied with her phone to notice the light was red...My point was that all the "modern amenities" we have now have made alot of drivers lazy and they feel too comfortable behind the wheel.
It's a multitude of things that make me despise modern cars, they build them overly complicated, and they're not any better than they were 20 years ago for the most part, gas mileage hasn't even gotten any better. There were cars in the 40's that got mileage better than some of todays cars and they were carburated heavy steel beasts.
I refuse to own a car that I have to have a computer to diagnose & fix minor engine troubles. I shouldn't need an ODB scanner to tell me I have a fouled plug on cylinder 2...They even make changing your battery complicated on alot of cars. Having to pull your tire, or backseat to get to your cars battery is rediculous. Old cars were built to be driven for as long as you wanted to drive them with proper maintenence and care, companies now (US in particular) plan the cars to be obsolete so you have to buy another.
I'm driving cars that are 50 years old, do you really think anyone will be driving an 08 Ford Focus in 2058? No, becuase the car won't last that fucking long.
iamblades
Member
(03-10-2009, 05:10 AM)
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I don't know why people here are acting like ABS is a must have.

It's a nice luxury of course, but if you can't recover from locking your brakes, you don't belong on the road.

Here;s what wiki says:

Anti-lock brakes are the subject of some experiments centred around risk compensation theory, which asserts that drivers adapt to the safety benefit of ABS by driving more aggressively. In a Munich study, half a fleet of taxicabs were equipped with anti-lock brakes, while the other half had conventional brake systems. The crash rate was substantially the same for both types of cab, and Wilde concludes this was due to drivers of ABS-equipped cabs taking more risks, assuming that ABS would take care of them, while the non-ABS drivers drove more carefully since ABS would not be there to help in case of a dangerous situation.[8] A similar study was carried out in Oslo, with similar results.[citation needed]

People should learn how to drive for real, and not simply rely on the computer to do everything for them. Otherwise when you come into a situation the computer can't handle, you are screwed.
akachan ningen
this tag has been removed due to terms of use violation
(03-10-2009, 05:16 AM)
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Fuck ABS. You don't need it unless you're a horrible driver. More importantly, the focus is a terrible choice.
HephalumpsAndWoozles
Banned
(03-10-2009, 05:31 AM)

Originally Posted by akachan ningen

Fuck ABS. You don't need it unless you're a horrible driver. More importantly, the focus is a terrible choice.

Drive often in snow / ice?

I love these elitist drivers who think they can operate these systems under pressure better than a modern computer :lol please
fart
Savant
(03-10-2009, 05:34 AM)

Originally Posted by akachan ningen

Fuck ABS. You don't need it unless you're a horrible driver.

wrong

More importantly, the focus is a terrible choice.

right

car control systems save lives, period. the only reason to forgo them is if you're driving in a controlled situation, ie, a race track, and want to become a better driver.

if you're looking at a focus, you should be looking at a mazda 3
Slurpy
*drowns in jizz*
(03-10-2009, 05:36 AM)

Originally Posted by Juice

So I'm thinking of buying a 2009 Focus without ABS, because ABS+TC costs $745 extra, an increase which makes it more sensible to just buy a Fusion (at which point I'm paying closer to $20k when I wanted to be closer to $15k)

Illustration by out-the-door prices (after employee discount/rebates):

2009 loaded Focus w/o ABS: $15,500
2009 Focus w/ ABS: $16,700
2009 similarly equipped Fusion: $18,000

Obviously if I get ABS, it'd be stupid not to get the Fusion at that price, but the wife would rather have the cute Focus. I can say that the only time we've ever had any close calls while driving have been on snowy / icy roads, and I've heard that traditional brakes + sensible pumping are usually superior to ABS in such conditions.

Other than fearing for my wife's safety, I'm also wondering how badly going no-ABS will affect resale value after the 2012 requirement that all cars come equipped with stability control.

Thoughts?

My car has no ABS, and I live in a place that has snow/ice covered roads 6-8 months of the year. Its not a deal-breaker.
akachan ningen
this tag has been removed due to terms of use violation
(03-10-2009, 05:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by HephalumpsAndWoozles

Drive often in snow / ice?

I love these elitist drivers who think they can operate these systems under pressure better than a modern computer :lol please

I don't recall saying that.

Originally Posted by fart

wrong

So you're saying everyone needs it? Then how is it that I've been driving for 8 years without it and I've never even been in a minor accident? And I live in socal, where I drive a lot.
HephalumpsAndWoozles
Banned
(03-10-2009, 05:39 AM)

Originally Posted by akachan ningen

I don't recall saying that.


Originally Posted by akachan ningen

Fuck ABS. You don't need it unless you're a horrible driver. More importantly, the focus is a terrible choice.

Are you a horrible driver? Do you have ABS?
Vox-Pop
Contains Sucralose
(03-10-2009, 05:41 AM)
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For someone who lives in LA were it never rains or snows need ABS?
akachan ningen
this tag has been removed due to terms of use violation
(03-10-2009, 05:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by HephalumpsAndWoozles

Are you a horrible driver? Do you have ABS?

you're still not making sense. I said I don't need it. I never said I can brake better than ABS systems.
ianp622
Member
(03-10-2009, 05:53 AM)
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I would say get it. If you rear-end into someone, I would think it would be difficult to explain your case to your insurance company if you don't have anti-lock brakes.
SwitchBladeKneegrow
Banned
(03-10-2009, 05:56 AM)

Originally Posted by ianp622

I would say get it. If you rear-end into someone, I would think it would be difficult to explain your case to your insurance company if you don't have anti-lock brakes.

If you rear end someone, your almost always at fault in the eyes of insurance companies/the law.
Elfforkusu
Member
(03-10-2009, 06:57 AM)
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I drive a Jeep without anti-lock brakes, it's no problem. Don't really even have to pump them much. But it is a Jeep so make of that what you will

Only problem is on cold, wet days when the brakes lock up at the slightest touch of the pedal. That's fun.
p01ar
GameTrailers
(03-10-2009, 07:03 AM)
how does it affect your insurance? would it be more expensive to not have ABS?
gutter_trash
(03-10-2009, 07:12 AM)
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after spinning out one too many times after freezing rain into icy roads... no more non-ABS cars for me ever.

ABS for me

*smaller cars... compact cars spin out without ABS.. a Focus is a small car
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
(03-10-2009, 07:16 AM)
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Before you do this. Play some Gran Turismo with ABS off. REAL DRIVING SIMULATORZ
thetechkid
Member
(03-10-2009, 07:18 AM)
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I thought this was gonna be a discussion about Initial D.
tino
Banned
(03-10-2009, 07:41 AM)
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If its a light car you don't need that crap, as long as you know how to drive.

ALB feels like running over cables on the road in some cars, my Mini Cooper did that.

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