[donny2112]

high budget games go to PS3/360.

Which hurts the Japanese console market, since they're not supporting the console market leader. That's my point.

Their hardware and software sells great on a worldwide basis so they don't care too much. Or at least that's my impression

Getting into Nintendo's thinking at this point, I think they care a great deal. We haven't seen actual evidence of this caring outside of Iwata's repeated comments on the Japanese market and Wii needing to do better, though.

if companies are not developing for Wii there must be a reason. If Wii is the leader is, but Nintendo is not helping to create the conditions to make it attractive for other companies, the responsibility is still for Nintendo, or at least a part of it.

Blame the victim. Good idea!

If you are happier thinking that everything happens because companies execs are stupid, good for you. I tend to prefer better and more precise explanations.

How about "They had already invested in the HD platforms thinking that was the way this generation would go while simultaneously writing off the Wii. The Wii started out great, and they listened to the incredibly incorrect gaming press/analysts who said that the Wii would be a quickly fading fad and the PS3 would rise to Heaven. Past that time, those that still refuse to develop for the Wii are just stupidly (from an immediate financial sense) stubborn, yes, but more companies are recognizing their mistake and attempting to correct it."?

Regardless, the cause of the current Japanese console market failing is third-parties choosing to support the loser platforms, which was my original and continuing point.

[Datschge]

Regarding the neverending Wii discussion, reading Iwata's answers in the last QA makes me think he's getting annoyed with the repeated passes of the buck to Nintendo:

Q6: "I assume that you were hoping third party software would fill in the gaps. I'd like to hear about the countermeasure to the lack of third party software for Wii in Japan."
A6: "(...) I think the financial analysts can receive a more accurate answer by asking the software publishers directly (...)"

A12: "You also pointed out that we may be running out of new ideas in developing our products. I think Nintendo must be the only company in the world that, immediately after announcing record sales and profits in all accounts, is criticized for a potential lack of new ideas."

[Sadist]

I'd be annoyed as well. We don't know what Iwata and Nintendo are doing to strengthen/increase third party relationships. And virtually every interview asks of Iwata what about the third parties?

Allthough... he did say that third parties told him "better and more games" are coming.

[Action Jackson]

:lol at the cognitive dissonance at display. You really have to drown in the corporate Kool-Aid to portray Nintendo as a victim, kept down by these treacherous 3rd parties who deny it the success it deserves. smh

[-Kh-]

I think the main problem for Nintendo, as it has been discussed in the past and in this thread already, is that third-parties chose to spend their initial efforts on the PS3/360. They never thought the Wii would succeed in such a short time.

Now for those third parties turning onto the Wii, or that are planning to, are finding an 'empty market' where most people (by my belief) overlook those new games that have been coming out in the past 9 months or so, and that people here don't take long to call bombas. There are other cases where the developer is clearly at fault for releasing something when they shouldn't do it (Konami).

Eaither way, it seems the third parties support should continue, and hopefully it might lead to a resurgence of the Wii, just like happened with the PSP and become strong once again, and a profitable place for developers, or just lead the way to the end of the Wii cycle. But we won't be seing more games until late 2009 or 2010 (or even 2011), since all these games will be those that weren't started until the developers/publishers released that the Wii had a big market (late 2007 - 2008).

[Xeke]

:lol at the cognitive dissonance at display. You really have to drown in the corporate Kool-Aid to portray Nintendo as a victim, kept down by these treacherous 3rd parties who deny it the success it deserves. smh

Nintnedo will just sit back and laugh when they go out of business becuase they're stubborn. Third parties in japan have fucked up, plain and simple. I expect many of them will have gone under by this point next year and good riddance.

[donny2112]

kept down by these treacherous 3rd parties who deny it the success it deserves. smh

No. The "treacherous 3rd parties" are keeping down the console market in Japan by not supporting the market leader. The fact that the market leader happens to be Nintendo might play into why they aren't supporting the market leader, but the point is still that the console market is in the bad shape that it is in Japan mainly due to the loser systems getting almost 100% of the significant third-party support to this point. If the PS2 had gotten the third-party support that the Wii has gotten in Japan to this point and GameCube/Xbox got the PS2's level of support, the PS2 probably would've been doing even worse than the Wii is right now.

[Acosta]

Nintnedo will just sit back and laugh when they go out of business becuase they're stubborn. Third parties in japan have fucked up, plain and simple. I expect many of them will have gone under by this point next year and good riddance.

This is just childish. You are taking like a raging fanboy.

So, if the Wii is succeeding due to Nintendo's own software, why are 36 of the 54 millionsellers for Wii thirdparty? Yeah, the Nintendo games are the most succesful on the console like Wii Fit, Mario Kart etc. The third party state in Japan for Nintendo is in bad shape. They need to work on it.

We are talking about Japan here.

How about "They had already invested in the HD platforms thinking that was the way this generation would go while simultaneously writing off the Wii. The Wii started out great, and they listened to the incredibly incorrect gaming press/analysts who said that the Wii would be a quickly fading fad and the PS3 would rise to Heaven. Past that time, those that still refuse to develop for the Wii are just stupidly (from an immediate financial sense) stubborn, yes, but more companies are recognizing their mistake and attempting to correct it."?

That doesn't explain why Gust (Gust!) prefer to develop a PS3 game than a Wii right now. If the situation was so clear as you think it is, developers would have jumped time ago. Developers like Square Enix had no problems to jump to DS when they saw there was business there, but they are not doing the same at this moment for Wii. Why?

Other thing is that is not that easy to change horses when companies have invested years of R&D planning this gen, they need to recover that investment some way. Dropping years of development for a market they are not confident wouldn't be seen as a wise move by anyone. Nintendo should have built that confidence and work closer to developers, maybe leading the way in certain genres to rise confidence (they have started to do that with tri and DQ X, but way too late in my opinion). So they are not faultless here.

Frankly, I don't think there is going to be any big change at the state of things. The top studios will be producing HD games because now is what they are used to and can produce faster games in a cheaper way. Is not like HD market is not being good business for them (RE 5 sold better than expected for example). So I wouldn't expect a big turnaround.

[test_account]

Nintnedo will just sit back and laugh when they go out of business becuase they're stubborn. Third parties in japan have fucked up, plain and simple. I expect many of them will have gone under by this point next year and good riddance.

Fucked up in what way?

[Acosta]

No. The "treacherous 3rd parties" are keeping down the console market in Japan by not supporting the market leader. The fact that the market leader happens to be Nintendo might play into why they aren't supporting the market leader, but the point is still that the console market is in the bad shape that it is in Japan mainly due to the loser systems getting almost 100% of the significant third-party support to this point. If the PS2 had gotten the third-party support that the Wii has gotten in Japan to this point and GameCube/Xbox got the PS2's level of support, the PS2 probably would've been doing even worse than the Wii is right now.

You should ask yourself what Sony did to get that kind of support for PS2. You are only looking at one side of the argument.

[donny2112]

Developers like Square Enix had no problems to jump to DS when they saw there was business there, but they are not doing the same at this moment for Wii. Why?

Square-Enix's 360 support has been discussed previously by Stumpokapow in much greater detail than I can give it. Short answer: Microsoft helped out a lot in various ways. For PS3, FFXIII and Vs. have been announced since before the creation of the world start of this generation as coming for PS3. The only real new move they've done is put Dragon Quest X on the Wii. Well lookey there.

Other thing is that is not that easy to change horses when companies have invested years of R&D planning this gen, they need to recover that investment some way. Dropping years of development for a market they are not confident wouldn't be seen as a wise move by anyone.

Nor should they. They should add Wii development to that mix to try to tap into the majority of the Japanese console market/half of the worldwide console market.

So they are not faultless here.

Definitely not. They could've done a lot more to encourage third-parties to come to the Wii. They did do the biggest step, though: Bring in a very large userbase for third-parties to make games for. Third-parties have just totally blown it since then, however.

You are only looking at one side of the argument.

I'm not ignoring Nintendo's part in this. In my opinion, they shouldn't outright pay for games as Sony/Microsoft have done before, but there are a lot of other things they did in the GameCube era that I haven't seen them doing this time around, yet. The side that, in the end, matters most, though, is still what the third-parties themselves do.

[Spiegel]

Definitely not. They could've done a lot more to encourage third-parties to come to the Wii. They did do the biggest step, though: Bring in a very large userbase for third-parties to make games for. Third-parties have just totally blown it since then, however.

They have brought an userbase that does not buy your average third party game (as seen with most of the releases) so why should they care about that when there are similar consoles with bigger userbases to develop for or consoles with a smaller userbase but more receptive to their games?

Nintendo does need to incentivate developments for Wii

[Acosta]

Square-Enix's 360 support has been discussed previously by Stumpokapow in much greater detail than I can give it. Short answer: Microsoft helped out a lot in various ways. For PS3, FFXIII and Vs. have been announced since before the creation of the world start of this generation as coming for PS3. The only real new move they've done is put Dragon Quest X on the Wii. Well lookey there. Nor should they. They should add Wii development to that mix to try to tap into the majority of the Japanese console market/half of the worldwide console market. Definitely not. They could've done a lot more to encourage third-parties to come to the Wii. They did do the biggest step, though: Bring in a very large userbase for third-parties to make games for. Third-parties have just totally blown it since then, however. I'm not ignoring Nintendo's part in this. In my opinion, they shouldn't outright pay for games as Sony/Microsoft have done before, but there are a lot of other things they did in the GameCube era that I haven't seen them doing this time around, yet. The side that, in the end, matters most, though, is still what the third-parties themselves do.

Yes, don't get me wrong, I don't think third parties manage their Wii porfolio well neither. I guess we can agree that is all a big clusterfuck and hoping for the best in the future.

[ShockingAlberto]

They have brought an userbase that does not buy your average third party game (as seen with most of the releases) so why should they care about that when there are similar consoles with bigger userbases to develop for or consoles with a smaller userbase but more receptive to their games? Nintendo does need to incentivate developments for Wii

Out of curiosity, which games are you talking about here when you refer to "your average third party game"?

[donny2112]

They have brought an userbase that does not buy your average third party game

So Nintendo has educated the Japanese market to forget the name on the front of the box or what advertising they've seen and head straight for the back of the box to see who the publisher/developer was? What an astounding revelation.

so why should they care about that when there are similar consoles with bigger userbases to develop for

There aren't in the home console space. "But Japan is a handheld nation!" Then why are any home console games still being developed?

or consoles with a smaller userbase but more receptive to their games?

How would they know if the smaller userbases are more receptive to their games when they don't release their games on the larger userbase? Not B-level development here and C-level development there. I'm talking the full gamut of the third-party multi-platform release schedule needs to be on the market leading platform, when that market-leading platform is as far ahead as the PS2/Wii were/are.

Nintendo does need to incentivate developments for Wii

Not monetarily unless they're not concerned about their longterm business solvency. That is not a sustainable business model. Yes, Nintendo could afford to do that now, but if that was the precedence that they set this gen, what would happen if another GameCube generation came along? They can do a lot of non-monetary incentives, though. In the GameCube era, loaning out their IPs as bit players in other games or letting third-parties develop a game with their IP seemed to work out pretty well.

[°°ToMmY°°]

No. The "treacherous 3rd parties" are keeping down the console market in Japan by not supporting the market leader. The fact that the market leader happens to be Nintendo might play into why they aren't supporting the market leader, but the point is still that the console market is in the bad shape that it is in Japan mainly due to the loser systems getting almost 100% of the significant third-party support to this point. If the PS2 had gotten the third-party support that the Wii has gotten in Japan to this point and GameCube/Xbox got the PS2's level of support, the PS2 probably would've been doing even worse than the Wii is right now.

the market leaders in japan are DS and PSP. wii is a distant third.

you could say the wii is the home console market leader, but it doesn't mean shit when portables are the bread and butter of console gaming in japan.

[-Kh-]

you could say the wii is the home console market leader, it doesn't mean shit when portables are the bread and butter of console gaming in japan.

[IMG]http://i42.************/idys1l.gif[/IMG]


Sorry :P

[Spiegel]

Out of curiosity, which games are you talking about here when you refer to "your average third party game"?

I'm not going to make a list because we'll start arguing about the games on my list, then you'll make a list and I'll make more lists and lists, lists, lists...
There are lots of examples.

So Nintendo has educated the Japanese market to forget the name on the front of the box or what advertising they've seen and head straight for the back of the box to see who the publisher/developer was? What an astounding revelation. There aren't in the home console space. "But Japan is a handheld nation!" Then why are any home console games still being developed?

No, but a huge part of the 8 million of Wii consoles sold come from Wii Sports, Wii Fit and Wii Play. That's not the kind of game that the average japanese third party make.

And there are console games in the making because even when PS2 was crushing GC, developers were still doing some games for the latter. And there's also the worldwide appeal/strenghts of a specific platform/...

How would they know if the smaller userbases are more receptive to their games when they don't release their games on the larger userbase? Not B-level development here and C-level development there. I'm talking the full gamut of the third-party multi-platform release schedule needs to be on the market leading platform, when that market-leading platform is as far ahead as the PS2/Wii were/are.

They must know because they are not doing those games for Wii. Here's when Nintendo should prove that Wii is a console worth making games for.
But hey, Iwata is hyping this E3 (Wii to surpass PS2) so maybe we'll see how a market leader should work with third parties very soon.

[markatisu]

But hey, Iwata is hyping this E3 (Wii to surpass PS2) so maybe we'll see how a market leader should work with third parties very soon.

We can hope, I mean all we know is coming is WSR and MH3 which as good as they are will not turn around the market by themselves.

[donny2112]

No, but a huge part of the 8 million of Wii consoles sold come from Wii Sports, Wii Fit and Wii Play. That's not the kind of game that the average japanese third party make.

And a smaller but still gargantuan part sold come from Mario Kart and Smash Bros. Most aptly described as bridge games, but a bridge needs to lead somewhere.

And there are console games in the making because even when PS2 was crushing GC, developers were still doing some games for the latter.

And any of consequence were typically ported to the PS2. Regardless, the better comparison would've been PS2 to GBA. Handheld and console games have switched places, so instead of PS2 being dominating and GBA to a lesser extent, it should be DS dominating and Wii to a lesser extent. The Wii isn't because third-parties supported the Wonderswan instead.

They must know because they are not doing those games for Wii.

:lol Yeah. Publishers know best. They're sure doing great compared to the PS2 years.

But hey, Iwata is hyping this E3 (Wii to surpass PS2) so maybe we'll see how a market leader should work with third parties very soon.

I think Nintendo's got a lot of big stuff planned from them, but Iwata kept saying that he doesn't know what third-parties are doing. Therefore, any comments about expectations for E3 would have to be from the perspective of what Nintendo is doing. I expect more from third-parties at E3 then we've been seeing in past years, but the most reasonable expectation is more Wii SKUs of multi-platform games. If you're expecting big things from third-parties outside of that, I think you'll be disappointed (or happy, depending on your leaning).

[Spiegel]

And a smaller but still gargantuan part sold come from Mario Kart and Smash Bros. Most aptly described as bridge games, but a bridge needs to lead somewhere.

Agreed

And any of consequence were typically ported to the PS2. Regardless, the better comparison would've been PS2 to GBA. Handheld and console games have switched places, so instead of PS2 being dominating and GBA to a lesser extent, it should be DS dominating and Wii to a lesser extent. The Wii isn't because third-parties supported the Wonderswan instead.

You are forgetting psp. It's the same as always, two consoles. One dominating (ds) and other to a lesser extent (psp).

PSP is the new ps2 on this example :lol

:p

Yeah. Publishers know best. They're sure doing great compared to the PS2 years.

Last I checked japanese publishers were doing fine, no? Well, Sega is losing money but that's caused by the Sammy side.

I think Nintendo's got a lot of big stuff planned from them, but Iwata kept saying that he doesn't know what third-parties are doing. Therefore, any comments about expectations for E3 would have to be from the perspective of what Nintendo is doing. I expect more from third-parties at E3 then we've been seeing in past years, but the most reasonable expectation is more Wii SKUs of multi-platform games. If you're expecting big things from third-parties outside of that, I think you'll be disappointed (or happy, depending on your leaning).

If there's big stuff planned from Nintendo i'll be pleased.
To tell you the truth I started this generation as a Wii-only owner and loved the first month with the console.

[Cellbomber]

Does the wii even really support DLC (only play it at friends house occasionally and that's really enough for me)?

If not would that have any factor in some of the companies overlooking the system. Does anyone really know how much these companies are making off just DLC after the game sells? It could be where they see more potential in overall profit by releasing it on the systems capable of doing DLC.

I could be way off base thinking this, or completely wrong about wii's DLC capabilities so I hope I don't get beat up too bad:D

[Archie]

Does the wii even really support DLC (only play it at friends house occasionally and that's really enough for me)?

Yes. Both Guitar Hero and Rock Band support paid DLC.

[swerve]

To make the platform feel alive and exciting takes a string of good software releases over a variety of genres from a number of different developers to get the variety. This is not rocket science.

In Japan, 3rd parties have failed to make that happen through a mixture of preference, incompetence, and scepticism.

Of course the scepticism then turns out to be validated because if you don't try, you'll never succeed.

However it's a pretty sorry state of affairs and it's not conducive to *anyone* getting massive hits, because home console gaming just feels boring and directionless over here right now.

Nintendo have to take some of the blame, because their new policies of silence and 'managing expectations' mean that no one - developers included - has any reason to think that next Christmas is going to be a good time to release games on Wii. Nintendo's role to lead the platform isn't to just make people excited for what's out right now (which they do very well) but to show a long future for the platform, which makes 3rd parties feel like it'll be alive and kicking when their game comes out. Releasing a game two weeks after the next Zelda is a *GOOD* time to hit the market, and you keep the ball rolling and you benefit from sales of people using their systems again. But no one knows if that's coming in time to make games to ride the snowball...

Looking at releases for June/July 09 in Japan is thoroughly depressing right now:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/schedule/0907.html

There are literally three Wii games releasing in July. One at the start, two at the very end. Obviously there will be more to come, but not knowing that is really damaging to the system's future prospects for potential consumers.

[ethelred]

And a smaller but still gargantuan part sold come from Mario Kart and Smash Bros. Most aptly described as bridge games, but a bridge needs to lead somewhere.

Not if you're familiar with Alaska.

[RyuKanSan]

I read somewhere that Nintendo thought that 3rd parties would support the system with quality games within the first 2 years like they did with the DS and it didn't happen. I'll have to find the quote.

here it is:

Q "I assume that you were hoping third party software would fill in the gaps. I'd like to hear about the countermeasure to the lack of third party software for Wii in Japan"

A "Nintendo thought that the situation would change in about two years after launch. While our assumption turned out to be correct with the portable system, it did not progress as we anticipated for the domestic home console market. Fortunately, the U.S. and Europe are showing completely different scenarios in this regard. With the current domestic situation as key leanings, we would like to take more time to study what we need to do for the future."

[donny2112]

Not if you're familiar with Alaska.

I think it may be possible to draw some comparisons between that project and certain development decisions this generation ... :lol

[markatisu]

Yes. Both Guitar Hero and Rock Band support paid DLC.

Samba De Amigo also supports paid DLC, Boom Blox Bash Party supports free level creation DLC as does Blast Works.

With the Firmware 4.0 SD Update there is no reason DLC cannot be done on the Wii so that is not longer an excuse.

[charlequin]

Not monetarily unless they're not concerned about their longterm business solvency. That is not a sustainable business model. Yes, Nintendo could afford to do that now, but if that was the precedence that they set this gen, what would happen if another GameCube generation came along? They can do a lot of non-monetary incentives, though. In the GameCube era, loaning out their IPs as bit players in other games or letting third-parties develop a game with their IP seemed to work out pretty well.

Different strategies apply to different situations. Lending out IP is a good way to turn "zero third-party support" into "slightly more than zero third-party support" on the cheap, when you have IP with the strength of Nintendo's.

When you're the market leader, flush with cash, and acting at a vast deficit in terms of your third-party support, more drastic measures are needed.

:lol Yeah. Publishers know best. They're sure doing great compared to the PS2 years.

Again, just because publishers are (quite unambiguously) shooting themselves in the foot, that doesn't absolve Nintendo of handing them the ammunition. The Japanese market is a huge clusterfuck and there's more than enough blame to go around.

Iwata kept saying that he doesn't know what third-parties are doing.

Like, what the heck is this? Do you think Microsoft is planning their E3 conference with no idea what third-party games may or may not turn up on their system in the next year?

[donny2112]

Like, what the heck is this? Do you think Microsoft is planning their E3 conference with no idea what third-party games may or may not turn up on their system in the next year?

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe he meant that he wasn't at liberty to say what third-parties have planned, but what was in the FY Q&A was that he didn't know what they had planned. :/ He was pretty clear in the Q&A that Nintendo can only count on what Nintendo has planned for their systems when doing projections, though.

[Flying_Phoenix]

Different strategies apply to different situations. Lending out IP is a good way to turn "zero third-party support" into "slightly more than zero third-party support" on the cheap, when you have IP with the strength of Nintendo's. When you're the market leader, flush with cash, and acting at a vast deficit in terms of your third-party support, more drastic measures are needed.

Exactly. Nintendo had a HUGE opportunity this generation and blew it. Yes funding for new IP's for their party's, writing checks for exclusives, and making deals for exclusives if you supply with free dev kits and tools and the likes is costly but when money is pouring in left and right and you have an opportunity to servery cripple your competitors you should take it, especially if you have sufficient funds as of now.

Do people REALLY think Nintendo is perfectly safe? What's stopping from Microsoft, SONY, Apple, or whoever the hell to take the Wii's controller and market and really push toward it? If these companys' offer games like Wiifit and Gears of War they will have a significant advantage over Nintendo thus leaving Nintendo in danger.

If Nintendo is smart next-generation they'll make deals with some major third party publishers to create 1 or 2 AAA games (probably new IP's) for the Wii's successor targeting the 15-35 year old male tech savvy market. This way Nintendo will most likely own the "casual" market as well as the "core". It may sound like that isn't enough but that's all Microsoft did this generation with the 360 to push it toward North America (remember the Japanese push doesn't count) and the result was by the end of its first year it was considered THE console to put your game on if you want software sales. It would be wise if Nintendo did the same only that they'd handle their money better.

[Archie]

Samba De Amigo also supports paid DLC, Boom Blox Bash Party supports free level creation DLC as does Blast Works. With the Firmware 4.0 SD Update there is no reason DLC cannot be done on the Wii so that is not longer an excuse.

Is there a DLC size limit? I know that WiiWare games have to be under (I believe 40) megs, but does that apply to DLC? If so, that could explain why some Wii games don't get map packs that clock in at several hundred megs on PS360.

[Dalthien]

Again, just because publishers are (quite unambiguously) shooting themselves in the foot, that doesn't absolve Nintendo of handing them the ammunition. The Japanese market is a huge clusterfuck and there's more than enough blame to go around.

There is absolutely enough blame to go around, but I do believe that the bulk of that blame lies on the shoulders of the 3rd-party publishers. It is their responsibility to continuously examine the marketplace and have a feel for which direction the industry is moving. The "$599" announcement should have been a clarion call to these publishers that the PS3 was not going to come anywhere close to replicating the PS2, but they just closed their ears and chose to pretend that this generation would follow a similar trajectory to the previous one.

And really, at the start of this gen, what could Nintendo realistically have accomplished with 3rd-parties who had their head so far in the sand? The big titles are the ones that really bring attention to a platform. When we look at the big titles that started development at the start of this gen (or even before), what do you think that Nintendo could have done to get those titles on the Wii? Metal Gear Solid 4, Yakuza, Resident Evil 5, Final Fantasy, Dynasty Warriors, Devil May Cry, Gundam Musou, Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, Ridge Racer. Unless Nintendo forked over insane buttloads of cash, Nintendo had absolutely no shot of getting these publishers to move these titles to the Wii at the start of this generation.

As for the B-level titles, Nintendo has actually done a fairly decent job of getting the 3rd-parties to bring those over to the Wii. They've had spinoffs for stuff like Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Soul Calibur. And they've had other stuff like DragonBall Z, One Piece, Trauma Center, Gundam, Bleach, Harvest Moon, Tales of Symphonia, Victorious Boxers, MySims, Cooking Mama, Sonic, Nights, Naruto, Opoona, etc. Honestly, coming off the discrepancy that existed between the PS2 and the Gamecube, I think Nintendo did just about the best they could have in terms of getting 3rd-party support in the early stages of the Wii. Those publishers just were not going to bring their top titles to the Wii in those early days, and I really don't think there was much of anything that Nintendo could have done to change that. Unfortunately for Nintendo, the B-level stuff doesn't sell systems and give awareness to a system. The A-level franchises do that, and Nintendo just wasn't going to get those from 3rd-parties at the start of this gen.

What Nintendo could do was to try to replace those missing 3rd-party top titles with a strong slate of their own 1st-party heavy hitters. And they executed that plan masterfully, with their own 1st-party lineup propelling the Wii into a dominant position in the home console market.

At this point, maybe a year or so into the generation is where Nintendo could have probably been more aggressive with 3rd-parties. At this point, the writing should have been on the wall for 3rd-parties that the Wii was the home console winner this gen. But honestly, we don't know how much effort Nintnedo did or did not put into pursuing 3rd-parties at this point. We do know that they made some fairly considerable efforts - getting commitments for main titles from Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest and Tales. Clearly, Nintendo was pursuing 3rd-party commitments at this time. But I suspect that many publishers were still hesitant to make a wholesale switch over to the Wii. They have already invested a lot of time and money into the HD systems, along with just about all of their major brand equity. People can be very stubborn and refuse to want to admit that they were wrong and backed the wrong horse. Even highly paid execs.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe he meant that he wasn't at liberty to say what third-parties have planned, but what was in the FY Q&A was that he didn't know what they had planned. :/ He was pretty clear in the Q&A that Nintendo can only count on what Nintendo has planned for their systems when doing projections, though.

I think Nintendo learned that they can't count on 3rd-parties back in the N64 days. Many 3rd-parties that had done very well on the NES and SNES moved their support and franchises to the Playstation and left Nintendo on thier own. That lesson was only reinforced in the Gamecube days with commitments falling apart like the fabled Capcom 5. One game was cancelled outright, Viewtiful Joe was ported to the PS2, Killer 7 was released simultaneously on the PS2, and the big gun Resident Evil 4 was announced for the PS2 before the Cube version even released, despite numerous protestations of exclusivity. Even fairly safe bets (essentially 2nd-party studios) such as Factor 5 and Silicon Knights ended up jumping ship for the competition.

I think Nintendo has come to learn that they can only rely on themselves. I'm sure Iwata and Co. have a pretty good idea of what is in the pipeline for the year ahead, but they don't want to lock themselves into anything where they are dependent upon other publishers. They will be realistic about forecasting their own titles, but they will be conservative when it comes to forecasting results from other publishers, because they just can't be completely confident that these publishers will follow through with their plans. They don't want to lock in a bullish forecast, only to have Capcom suddenly announce a PSP port of Monster Hunter 3 two weeks before the game releases. Then sales plummet on the Wii version of the game and Nintendo misses their forecasts and their stock gets hammered. (Just as a hypothetical example).

[Flying_Phoenix]

And really, at the start of this gen, what could Nintendo realistically have accomplished with 3rd-parties who had their head so far in the sand? The big titles are the ones that really bring attention to a platform. When we look at the big titles that started development at the start of this gen (or even before), what do you think that Nintendo could have done to get those titles on the Wii? Metal Gear Solid 4, Yakuza, Resident Evil 5, Final Fantasy, Dynasty Warriors, Devil May Cry, Gundam Musou, Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, Ridge Racer. Unless Nintendo forked over insane buttloads of cash, Nintendo had absolutely no shot of getting these publishers to move these titles to the Wii at the start of this generation.

Perhaps due what Microsoft did? Ask for and fund development of new IP's. Examples would be Lost Planet and Dead Rising from Capcom.

[RyuKanSan]

I also feel that it has mostly to do with the sheer power of the Wii. I think that in itself is what turned a lot of the 3rd parties off in the beginning. Adding on to the fact that everyone was predicting that Sony was going to win. A LOT of people were blind-sided. I say it's to late to have 3rd parties try to jump ship to Wii, the damage has been done. I do see Nintendo garnering a few more big titles but hey Nintendo has always supported themselves.

[Dalthien]

Perhaps due what Microsoft did? Ask for and fund development of new IP's. Examples would be Lost Planet and Dead Rising from Capcom.

It was an option - but honestly, Nintendo would rather fund development of their own titles. And Microsoft's money didn't do much. They went from being a last-place system which was several million units behind the #2 system to being another last place system which is several million units behind the #2 system.

Really, for the money it would have cost, Lost Planet and Dead Rising wouldn't have helped much at all in Japan. Something like funding Blue Dragon would have been money better spent in Japan, but it wouldn't have done diddly squat in the rest of the world. And if I remember correctly, Mistwalker was locked up by Microsoft long before the Wii ever saw the light of day.

My point is that yeah, there are things here and there where we can look back and say this or that could have been done differently. But look at what happened. Nintendo went from the Gamecube (completely dead and buried the last couple years on the market) to the generational king of home consoles with the Wii in one generation. Seriously, nitpicking things at this point seems kind of silly. They achieved more than they (or anyone else) could have ever imagined a year or two before this generation began.

They've done far, far more right this generation than they have wrong. The same can't necessarily be said of the competition, or many 3rd-party publishers.

[Link]

It's funny how the people who claim that third party software doesn't sell on the Wii so third parties shouldn't bother with it are the same ones championing the PSP's second wind.

[Flying_Phoenix]

It was an option - but honestly, Nintendo would rather fund development of their own titles.

And this is a mindset Nintendo has to change or else they might as well set the bar for Gamecube level for their console sales.

And Microsoft's money didn't do much. They went from being a last-place system which was several million units behind the #2 system to being another last place system which is several million units behind the #2 system.

Microsoft's money did plenty of things. First of all it isn't really far to say that the 360 is so far behind the Wii when it's the fastest selling piece of gaming hardware of all-time. The 360's hardware sales are far above the XBox's and turned the 360 into a software selling king making it guaranteed to grab every single multiplat out there and establish a much stronger fanbase.

Really, for the money it would have cost, Lost Planet and Dead Rising wouldn't have helped much at all in Japan. Something like funding Blue Dragon would have been money better spent in Japan, but it wouldn't have done diddly squat in the rest of the world. And if I remember correctly, Mistwalker was locked up by Microsoft long before the Wii ever saw the light of day.

I was more so giving an example. Nintendo could contract different publishers (two for Western support, two for Japanese) or ask them to create "worldy appealing" titles, much like how Capcom was asked to create "western" type titles.

My point is that yeah, there are things here and there where we can look back and say this or that could have been done differently. But look at what happened. Nintendo went from the Gamecube (completely dead and buried the last couple years on the market) to the generational king of home consoles with the Wii in one generation. Seriously, nitpicking things at this point seems kind of silly. They achieved more than they (or anyone else) could have ever imagined a year or two before this generation began. They've done far, far more right this generation than they have wrong. The same can't necessarily be said of the competition, or many 3rd-party publishers.

The thing is though if Nintendo doesn't wise up they might as well go back from being the Gamecube because it will become an inevitable future. Yes Nintendo owns the casual market as well as the majority market NOW, but what happens if Microsoft, SONY, or God could only imagine Apple make a casual focused console along with all of the serious gamer goodies at a low friendly price? And what if the products are marketed just as, if not better then Nintendo's product? They'd be destroyed. Hell it doesn't even need to be that big of an undertake just have SONY and Microsoft make casual centric consoles that also offer a lot of third party serious gamer games and watch them take a huge chunk of Nintendo's market share.

My point is if Nintendo doesn't start taking things more seriously then other companies will stand up and start taking serious market share away from Nintendo by offering what Nintendo offers and more.

Yes I realize that being big on third party deals isn't very "Nintendo" but if they don't significantly change their ways then they'll never get the taste of market leader ever again.

[Dalthien]

And this is a mindset Nintendo has to change or else they might as well set the bar for Gamecube level for their console sales.

What? Nintendo knew they had little 3rd-party support heading into this gen, but they still set the bar above Gamecube levels. And even if they have no 3rd-party support again next gen, they will still set the bar above Gamecube levels. Who knows whether they will surpass Gamecube levels next gen or not, but they will certainly set the bar higher than that, with or without 3rd-party support.

Microsoft's money did plenty of things. First of all it isn't really far to say that the 360 is so far behind the Wii when it's the fastest selling piece of gaming hardware of all-time. The 360's hardware sales are far above the XBox's and turned the 360 into a software selling king making it guaranteed to grab every single multiplat out there and establish a much stronger fanbase.

We were talking about Japan, where Microsoft went from a distant 3rd-place system to another distant 3rd-place system. I'm sorry, but selling less than a couple million units is not cause for celebration.

If we're talking about worldwide sales, then the whole 3rd-party discussion is fairly irrelevant anyway. 3rd-parties haven't hurt Nintendo much at all in the west. Until just very recently, Nintendo basically sold everything they could manufacture, and now that they are finally getting some excess supply built up, 3rd-parties are starting to bring some good effort to the Wii. Hell, as donny pointed out in another thread, 3rd-parties sold more software on the Wii than they did on the 360 in the USA in 2008, even with the much weaker lineup on the Wii.

Heck, to be honest, even in Japan 3rd-parties are starting to bring some good effort with stuff like Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, and Tales. It is just that those 3rd-party efforts were needed 8-10 months earlier in Japan than they were in the west.

Yes I realize that being big on third party deals isn't very "Nintendo" but if they don't significantly change their ways then they'll never get the taste of market leader ever again.

I don't know. I'm sure you would have said the exact same thing before this gen started, but they are market leader now. Who knows what future generations will look like. Yeah - Nintendo may never be market leader again, but they have proven that they are a strong enough publisher to pull it off on their own twice now. They carried the NES to a market leading position at a time when consoles were thought to be a dead and buried fad, and now they've done it a second time with the Wii. (And you can add a few more times if you count portables, as they also carried the GameBoy and DS systems to market leading positions on their own). So I wouldn't put it past them to pull it off again somewhere down the road.

In any case, 3rd-party support worldwide for the Wii is growing stronger month-by-month, and I think it fairly safe to say that even without any moneyhats at all, Nintendo will receive far better 3rd-party support at the start of next gen than they did at the start of the Wii's life.

[cvxfreak]

I love the passion that permeates through many of the posts on this particular thread. It shows where people's console preferences lie (not like there's anything wrong with them).

I do particularly agree with the argument that weak 3rd party support by Japanese developers is probably one reason why the Wii isn't doing as well as it should be at this moment. The economy is probably another big reason, and the Japanese downturn of the gaming industry since 2007.

But, it's not about the blame game. In the end, it's the console manufacturers' responsibility to sell its system. Japanese third parties are in no danger of bankruptcy and many of their games on the 2nd/3rd place systems have been successful, such as Yakuza and RE5. If Nintendo can't harness relationships with the 3rd parties like the other two do, then its systems will sell less and less. Selling the most systems by default is not a free pass to become lazy, especially since that never is a true indicator of a game's potential anyway.

[JoshuaJSlone]

Based on the latest Media Create hardware numbers...
DS vs PSP: Weekly shares of 57.6 / 42.4 bring total shares to 68.3 / 31.7. If DS stopped selling and PSP continued at this week's rate, it would catch up in 495.0 weeks (November 12, 2018).

X360 vs PS3: Weekly shares of 21.8 / 78.2 bring total shares to 24.5 / 75.5. If PS3 stopped selling and X360 continued at this week's rate, it would catch up in 657.0 weeks (December 19, 2021).

PS3 vs Wii: Weekly shares of 43.4 / 56.6 bring total shares to 28.3 / 71.7. If Wii stopped selling and PS3 continued at this week's rate, it would catch up in 417.3 weeks (May 17, 2017).

Week over week, everything is down. Down around 40% seems the norm.



Through the first twenty weeks of the year, almost everything is down by some degree. Here's how the year-to-date year-over-year percents stand as of now.

Wii: -64.0%
DSL+DSi: -0.9%
PS2: -50.6%
PS3: +28.4%
PSP: -43.5%
X360: +242.9%

Home hardware: -36.4%
Portable hardware: -24.8%
Sum of all hardware: -29.5%

It's worth noting that with the string of large weeks over, X360's YTD increase over last year seems to have peaked. This week it's +242.9%, compared to +246.2% last week.

This week is Wii's lowest hardware number since the week of 2009-04-13.
This week is DSL's lowest hardware number since the week of 2008-11-10.
This week is DSi's lowest hardware number since the week of 2009-03-09.
This week is PS2's lowest hardware number since... well, it appears to be a new low among Media Create records, though in the Famitsu number that go further back it was lower during intense shortages the week of 2000-11-27.
This week is PS3's lowest hardware number since the week of 2008-10-20.
This week is PSP's lowest hardware number since the week of 2008-10-06.
This week is X360's lowest hardware number since the week of 2008-09-01.

What's up with the resurgence of NSMB over the past few weeks?

Is it really a resurgence, or a case of all the non-evergreens doing worse than normal causing games like NSMB to sit higher on the charts?

Hell even the DS, when was the last AC/MK/NSMB/BA/BA2 monster game released? 2006?

Well, depends how you mean "monster game". Those were all at least 3+ million sellers, and DS hasn't had one since Diamond/Pearl. The only on any platforms since then are Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and the combined SKUs of Monster Hunter Portable 2 G. They've published seven 1+ DS million sellers since then, though, and third parties have an additional four.

No, but a huge part of the 8 million of Wii consoles sold come from Wii Sports, Wii Fit and Wii Play. That's not the kind of game that the average japanese third party make.

Well, nor do they make Animal Crossing, Brain Age, or Pokémon. At least not nearly as successfully.

You are forgetting psp. It's the same as always, two consoles. One dominating (ds) and other to a lesser extent (psp).

By what measure are you ordering "dominance"? Hardware, software, third party support?

[Sadist]

We were talkinng about Iwata and the state of third party... he does know something.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/n...fm?artid=18511

Why third parties have been slower to make their mark on the Wii than on the DS: "I understand that two things are different when compared with the situation of Nintendo DS. One is the time needed for development — it often takes longer to develop software for a home console than for a portable system. Another thing is that home console software development teams of third parties were more focused on making software for other companies systems until quite recently... Nintendo thought that the situation would change in about two years after launch. While our assumption turned out to be correct with the portable system, it did not progress as we anticipated for the [Japanese] home console market. Fortunately, the U.S. and Europe are showing completely different scenarios in this regard." - Saturo Iwata

[JoshuaJSlone]

So I missed this when it was true news a few weeks ago. I think with Wii's continued low sales it came earlier than I expected.

As of the week starting 2009-04-20, Media Create has PSP hardware ahead of Wii since the week of Wii's launch.


Famitsu still has Wii slightly ahead through that week and a few more. Probably the week starting May 11 or May 18 will make the difference for that tracker.

EDIT: Actually, Famitsu will be further off. I wasn't paying enough attention to all the digits, since I was assuming a small difference. Even after just now putting in the numbers from the double week in which PSP gained 50K on Wii, Famitsu still has Wii 213K ahead. Through 128 weeks, Wii Famitsu > PSP Media Create > Wii Media Create > PSP Famitsu.

[cvxfreak]

I was actually wondering throughout the last year or so when that would happen.

[D.Lo]

Wii is the leader platform, so yes, I "need" to single out that. Bigger userbase, bigger responsability on the state of things.

And still not a single big 3rd party game released on it, particularly from a Japanese perspective, so while the Wii is the leading system in sales, it has not been treated as one. Nobody built and audience on it, so now there isn't one. And yet they've given everything they had to build an audience on platforms the public doesn't want.

I still find it hard to believe that Monster Hunter 3 will be the first genuine effort big Japanese franchise 3rd party game released on the runaway leading system. Three years into its life.

EDIT: aaaand it seems this thread got away from me. Don't come back to an un-refreshed browser is my lesson learned!

[swerve]

I still find it hard to believe that Monster Hunter 3 will be the first genuine effort big Japanese franchise 3rd party game released on the runaway leading system. Three years into its life.

Plus, let's not get too hung up on MH3 as a big release. Lost Planet 2 looks like the real next gen Monster Hunter title. Anyone paying attention can see that MH3 is headed for pretty lacklustre performance relative to the PSP versions.

[Fafalada]

high budget games go to PS3/360. Which hurts the Japanese console market, since they're not supporting the console market leader. That's my point.

I'd argue it's more of a case of supporting primarily the market loser.
What high-profile games PS3 saw that weren't multiplatform? The Yakuzas, and relative to the stuff 360 has been getting(or relative to RE5/DMC4) their budgets weren't exactly high to begin with.
360 cornered the vast majority of high-budget/high-profile stuff from 3rd parties in Japan to date, IMO what PS3 got so far has been only marginally better then the Wii.

[JoshuaJSlone]

Plus, let's not get too hung up on MH3 as a big release. Lost Planet 2 looks like the real next gen Monster Hunter title. Anyone paying attention can see that MH3 is headed for pretty lacklustre performance relative to the PSP versions.

Name is a preeeeetty big thing. Will Wii MH3's performance seem lackluster if compared to a triple platinum PSP game? Sure, probably. But we're also seeing a Wii port of a 2005 PS2 Monster Hunter selling twice as much as Lost Planet X360, Lost Planet PS3, and Lost Planet: Colonies Edition X360 combined.

[cvxfreak]

Monster Hunter 3 is going to be huge. If Capcom's gained the ability to do something this generation, it's build hype.

I think the game can make 1 Million in Japan. At the very least, Capcom will try to make it happen.

[D.Lo]

Plus, let's not get too hung up on MH3 as a big release. Lost Planet 2 looks like the real next gen Monster Hunter title. Anyone paying attention can see that MH3 is headed for pretty lacklustre performance relative to the PSP versions.

Well yes, there's that too. I've played the demo and while it looks good, it still really looks like a PS2 game with bloom lighting. Galaxy and Corruption still look far better then it. actually MH3 reminds me of Twilight Princess graphically, a native GameCube game.

But still, it is at least now a big name (although a handheld big name, and was 2nd tier when it was last on consoles), cavets aside it is still the biggest Japanese game to hit the system ever. Even then, it's a smaller game then DMC4, MGS4, RE5, SC4, SF4...