[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

One point I'd like to repeat that a lot of people are missing though is, people don't want to boycott this game just because Card is insane, its because he uses his influence and money to help get his insane views enforced and that buying the game would send money to a very active bigot's doorstep. That's what people don't want.

I don't think this is lost on anyone. What you are missing is that people just don't give a crap.

[dallow_bg]

I don't think this is lost on anyone. What you are missing is that people just don't give a crap.

And some, probably, are all for it.

[TheExodu5]

i am disgusted by this man. 1 - i will no longer buy shadow complex 2 - i will never buy a product from epic again for working with a public figure who promotes such utter hateful crap 3 - my copies of gears 2, gears, and unreal are going to be traded in.

Why trade them in? You should burn them in protest.

[badrockjones]

you guys would buy furniture put together in concentration camps made by Hitler Inc. too? who cares about his views right ? they make damn good tables it DOES matter how products are made or whos associated with them for fucks sake

It does matter, but comparing the Prop 8 crowd (ignorant, wrong, relatively peaceful) to the Nazis (genocidal, arguably evil) is...specious, at best.

[xbhaskarx]

If Shadow Complex was pushing his mormon or homophobic agenda, then sure, why not? But it's not, so I don't really see the point of depriving myself of playing an awesome game.

The main character has a girlfriend and long white underwear.

[charlequin]

But this particular work does not make any political commentary about homosexuality.

I think everyone is quite clear on that. The potential objection is to funding OSC who quite publically uses his money in opposition of gay rights, not with the content of the game.

Also, throwing around the word "homophobic" is disingenuous and a miserable term to use to stereotype those with different views on homosexuality.

A "different" view on homosexuality that takes the form "gay people should not have legal right X" is at least "homophobic," since it is based around at very least irrational aversion to gay individuals.

And if you're against a Mormon choosing to follow their beliefs in the public square, you're holding an anti-Mormon prejudice?

This is high-school stoner philosophy bullshit. "Isn't it, like, wrong to discriminate against cannibals, because they're just, like, following their beliefs, man? *koff*"

The Mormon Church, an organization, has its own stated positions regarding SSM. Every individual Mormon is free to accept those views or reject them. They're even free, as much as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints might not like it, to reject some portion of those views that they find morally problematic (like the opposition to gay marriage), still identify as a Mormon, and continue to worship in the manner of their choice!

Having an offensive view come from your religion doesn't give you a pass, nor does accepting a given religious label hold you liable to accept every position associated with that religion's parent organization. I don't hold an "anti-Mormon prejudice" because I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing to believe in the theology of the Mormon church, to call oneself a Mormon, to attend Mormon services, etc; I just think there's something wrong with the activism to deny gays the legal right to marry, and that inasmuch as the Church tells its followers otherwise they have the same moral responsibility as anyone else to recognize the problems with that position and reject it.

[NinjaFusion]

Wow ... anyways, been playing Shadow Complex to death today. It's an awesome game, and I recommend everyone who enjoys good games to buy it. There are much much better ways to deal with this Card fellow than to try to boycott this game. Ah well ... back to the game! Edit poster above is going loonie. :lol

it's not about going loonie... i'm guessing you aren't gay.

[woodypop]

I find this topic to be very interesting. Being scandinavian I have personally never come across Card's work or any of his personal views. After reading the post in this thread that actually attempted to bring something to the discussion I don't think I can support this game. I base this on the information that Card is an active and public figure in organisations such as NOM. I don't think this is a simple issue, since from what I've read the game itself does not contain any of Card's personal views. Which, to me, means that I have no problem with the game itself, but rather with Chair's choice to use Card. Don't know about most people, but I think that having the information and making a choice based on it is better than not having the information at all. I'm glad the OP brought this to my attention.

I think this post bears repeating, not for the poster's ultimate decision, but for the sane, rational way he conveys himself.

[Like the hat?]

I didn't know who OSC was until this thread. now that i do though, SC went from my "maybe" list to my "nah" list.

wouldn't say i'm "boycotting it" per se, just that i'll spend my money elsewhere. it's not like i don't have enough games as is, heh.

i will try the demo though, just to see what the game is like.

[Y2Kev]

This is high-school stoner philosophy bullshit. "Isn't it, like, wrong to discriminate against cannibals, because they're just, like, following their beliefs, man? *koff*"

:lol

[TheChillyAcademic]

And some, probably, are all for it.

It's their choice. Again, Card is a fucking moron, but he has a right to say what he wants. Punishing the entire development team for one persons idiotic ranting is like saying you hate all homosexuals because one of them speaks out against straight people.

[kylej]

i am disgusted by this man. For an educated man to have such an opinion in the age we currently live in is sickening. As a gay man i cannot give my money to any company who see's value in the sorts of people who would bring more inequality to our world. Sorry epic, but i cannot buy your products while you make this man rich. people can have their opinion... fine... but this guy has been on record - basically lobbying for hatred. it saddens me but i will not be able to bring myself to touch their products now.

I'm not gay but I agree with this post in its entirety. No Shadow Complex for me.

[gutter_trash]

when it comes to gaming, I do not care about political stances of publishers, devs or worker bees

But, I will boycott it because it uses Unreal Engine and I have a strict stance against anything that uses UE

[Jtrizzy]

There is truth to what you said, but if enough people really care they can try to get a statement out of chair in which they distance themself from extreme political views or maybe even bring them cease future cooperation with Orson.

This would be a good start.

[Askani]

Sorry epic, but i cannot buy your products while you make this man rich.

Then don't forget your 2K games, your Square Enix games, Sega, Koei, THQ, Microsoft, Activision...etc. All these people people licensed the Unreal 3 engine. If you're trying to go the route of punishing Epic, the people who make the game engine and not the actual game, then you have to go after all those companies as well who have also licensed the game engine.

[Zyzyxxz]

wow I'm pretty disappointed that Epic would choose to use his material...

Maybe they didnt know? Truth is I am a fervent supporter of gay rights but I really want the game too.

To be honest I'm probably going to end up buying the game anyway but I'll do everything I can to support the coming election in California by making sure my vote counts!

[xbhaskarx]

Then don't forget your 2K games, your Square Enix games, Sega, Koei, THQ, Microsoft, Activision...etc. All these people people licensed the Unreal 3 engine.

Hah!

[gregor7777]

Does Card get a direct piece of sales? Is Card paid a flat amount for all Chair games? Should we boycott all Chair games set in this universe, or all Chair games period? Should we boycott Epic games because they own Chair? Should we boycott MS because they're so close with Epic?

[Justin]

Did microsoft give Epic money to make this exclusive? Do i have to sell my xbox now?

[woodypop]

It's their choice. Again, Card is a fucking moron, but he has a right to say what he wants. Punishing the entire development team for one persons idiotic ranting is like saying you hate all homosexuals because one of them speaks out against straight people.

If the company said that Card's proceeds from the sale of the game would instead go to those other employees, I might consider buying the game.

Somehow, I don't think that's going to happen.

[Angry Grimace]

Yay, the Hitler/Nazi argument!

Godwin's law in action, my friend.

[MightyHedgehog]

Then don't forget your 2K games, your Square Enix games, Sega, Koei, THQ, Microsoft, Activision...etc. All these people people licensed the Unreal 3 engine.

Actually, let's follow the trail of money and put everyone on that list and that would now include Nintendo, Sony, and a whole host of others because they, at some point in the chain, receive money because of licensing fees and other shit for titles they approve for release not to mention, in Sony's case, they courted Epic for their engine's use on the platform and have worked with them to improve its performance on the platform. The chain for anything, based on association, or even the long and often disjointed path of money can go out as far as you want it to. At what point is it still an issue? Anyway...it's a silly thing to bring up in this thread.

[Calcaneus]

I don't think this is lost on anyone. What you are missing is that people just don't give a crap.

I'm not trying to say that you should give a crap, you missed the point of my post. Lots of people are trying to say "there are a bunch of people out there who are against gay marriage, why don't you boycott everything" as if the only reason people want to boycott is because they don't have the same opinions as Card. The problem people have is that Card uses his money and power to fight gay-rights, most people don't, even if they don't agree with gay marriage.

[soldat7]

Let's boycott Twilight. And the Osmonds.

[HallucinatingElvis]

I like cock and I bought this game.....wat do I do now!!!???

[Proc]

I'm buying it today, already bought my points card last night. Personally, I can look passed the fact that knowingly one bigot worked on this game, especially due to all of the praise it has been receiving. Boycotting the game or in some of your cases, an entire company (epic games) seems way too extreme of a stance to take, but hey, to each his own.

[xbhaskarx]

Did microsoft give Epic money to make this exclusive? Do i have to sell my xbox now?

I hope you're not using IE or a Windows OS to write that comment...

[TheChillyAcademic]

If the company said that Card's proceeds from the sale of the game would instead go to those other employees, I might consider buying the game. Somehow, I don't think that's going to happen.

That isn't the point. The point is that while Card will receive proceeds for his "contributions", not purchasing the game effects more then just Card, speaking specifically of profit.

[ShockingAlberto]

Kind of off topic, but after arguing in this thread, I figured I could at least give the demo a try, and my 360 popped up with an E74 error.:lol

[Nose Master]

Yeah dude, totally. The ten people that don't buy the game in protest will absolutely FUCK his sales, and ultimately, his life.

[ShockingAlberto]

Let's boycott Twilight.

I'm okay with this.

But that's more of a quality issue.

[MacBosse]

I like cock and I bought this game.....wat do I do now!!!???

You just took it up the *ss ... or wait. That came out wrong.

[Y2Kev]

The idea isn't to deprive Chair of funds (though that might be the idea if it came to light that they held the same views Card does), but instead to make the point clear (and also deprive CARD of funds) that the association WITH Card is damaging and undesirable. I think this has been relatively clear since the first post, though people continue to see it as some kind of punishment for the evil mormons at Chair.

And boycotting every company that licenses UE3 does nothing to speak to this purpose OR to deprive Card of his royalties. Unless you believe he gets royalties from UE3.

[VALIS]

I don't really care about the game or the guy, but from reading the OP, it sounds like by buying this game, you are giving money to a notorious homophobe. And only an idiot would do that.

By buying most things in this world you're giving money to homophobes, racists and all other manner of dickholes. You have to draw the line somewhere, though, unless you want to subsist on carrots from your own backyard. Carrot shoes! Carrot hat! Carrot soup for dinner again?! The game doesn't seem to promote or even imply a homophobic agenda, and someone would be making a real desperate argument to suggest the game will fund anti-homosexual activities. That's like the anti-drug ads that say you're funding violent terrorist actions by buying pot! You can do that with almost fucking anything, keep following the money gained from Product X and see what manner of unagreeable opinions or actions it supports down the line.

As an animal lover, should I stop watching and supporting the NFL because of Michael Vick? Or do you draw the line somewhere short of that with the realization he's a tiny part of a much larger entity?

[arstal]

He's happy just posting in the Rhino Times, and saying how he voted for Obama, and how Southerners would never elect Mitt Romney.

(seriously, he did vote for Obama)

[Ardorx]

Do you guys plan to boycott Warner Bros because they plan on making a film based on Empire?

[ShockingAlberto]

Do you guys plan to boycott Warner Bros because they plan on making a film based on Empire?

I plan to not watch a film based on Empire, yes.

[shinshero]

Do you realize how many people's livelihood and hard work went into this game? Many people who I'm sure are fine people. Dude, please.

This.

[NinjaFusion]

i am disgusted by this man. 1 - i will no longer buy shadow complex 2 - i will never buy a product from epic again for working with a public figure who promotes such utter hateful crap 3 - my copies of gears 2, gears, and unreal are going to be traded in. For an educated man to have such an opinion in the age we currently live in is sickening. As a gay man i cannot give my money to any company who see's value in the sorts of people who would bring more inequality to our world. Sorry epic, but i cannot buy your products while you make this man rich. people can have their opinion... fine... but this guy has been on record - basically lobbying for hatred. it saddens me but i will not be able to bring myself to touch their products now.

i would just like to add this.... i have just been reading about his campaign.... it was an organised and systematic lobby to to away the rights of people.

after this i will not send these game out to create potentially a new fan that he could profit from

[IMG]http://i29.************/15dbcdy.jpg[/IMG]

[pmj]

It saddens me to find out that OCD is behind this game as I was really looking forward to playing it. But I'm not going to give him any of my money.

And holy shit at the huge amount of posters completely missing the point. I read them all and now I feel bad.

[kodt]

If I could prove that a "homophobe" worked at your local power plant would you have your electricity disconnected? After all, paying your electric bill is what allows the company to pay this guy so in effect you are supporting him.

Where does it end? How much research do you have to do about each company before you do business with them? Is it simply a matter of "Well I heard bad things about this company so I won't support them, but if I haven't heard anything bad then I'll go ahead and support them". Isn't that a very irresponsible view to take? Is it morally wrong to support a company if you don't know the bad causes they support? Or is it only morally wrong if you do know? Because the outcomes are exactly the same.

Also, what if OSC also gave money to a cause you supported? Would that offset the money he gives to causes you don't support? How do we know that the money he makes from your purchase of this $15 game will go to a anti-gay rights cause? Is it just not worth the risk? If so then how is it worth the risk to do business with any company except those with which you are intimately familiar.

I can guarantee all of you have done business with a company that has supported causes or has participated in business practices that you would find morally apprehensible.

[MacBosse]

i would just like to add this.... i have just been reading about his campaign.... it was an organised and systematic lobby to to away the rights of people. after this i will not send these game out to create potentially a new fan that he could profit from [IMG]http://i29.************/15dbcdy.jpg[/IMG]

Oh lord, total meltdown. :lol

[Angry Grimace]

By buying most things in this world you're giving money to homophobes, racists and all other manner of dickholes. You have to draw the line somewhere, though, unless you want to subsist on carrots from your own backyard. Carrot shoes! Carrot hat! Carrot soup for dinner again?! The game doesn't seem to promote or even imply a homophobic agenda, and someone would be making a real desperate argument to suggest the game will fund anti-homosexual activities. That's like the anti-drug ads that say you're funding violent terrorist actions by buying pot! You can do that with almost fucking anything, keep following the money gained from Product X and see what manner of unagreeable opinions or actions it supports down the line. As an animal lover, should I stop watching and supporting the NFL because of Michael Vick? Or do you draw the line somewhere short of that with the realization he's a tiny part of a much larger entity?

There's a difference and trying to obfuscate it with a overly broad example doesn't work. The difference between "rewarding Michael Vick" by being an NFL fan and buying an Orson Scott Card-based game is pretty massive.

There's a single degree of separation between Shadow Complex and Orson Scott Card.

[Askani]

Actually, let's follow the trail of money and put everyone on that list and that would now include Nintendo, Sony, and a whole host of others because they, at some point in the chain, receive money because of licensing fees and other shit for titles they approve for release not to mention, in Sony's case, they courted Epic for their engine's use on the platform and have worked with them to improve its performance on the platform. The chain for anything, based on association, or even the long and often disjointed path of money can go out as far as you want it to. At what point is it still an issue? Anyway...it's a silly thing to bring up in this thread.

I agree, but don't look at me, look at who I quoted...maybe go talk to them. The person who I quoted is the one who brought Epic into this saying they wouldn't support them because of this simply because they licensed the engine to Chair. If they are going so far as to speak out with their dollars against Epic, then that's the extent that they have to go to so they don't support them at all.

[PhoenixPause]

If it's a good game, and you like it, buy it. If it's a sucky game and you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple

His beliefs have nothing to do with the content of the product. Besides this is a slippery slope considering how much of your consumer dollars finance shit you don't support

[xbhaskarx]

The idea isn't to deprive Chair of funds (though that might be the idea if it came to light that they held the same views Card does), but instead to make the point clear (and also deprive CARD of funds) that the association WITH Card is damaging and undesirable. I think this has been relatively clear since the first post, though people continue to see it as some kind of punishment for the evil mormons at Chair. And boycotting every company that licenses UE3 does nothing to speak to this purpose OR to deprive Card of his royalties. Unless you believe he gets royalties from UE3.

If you believe that boycotts are an effective tool, then boycotting companies that license UE3 absolutely would help achieve the purpose of letting Epic / Chair know that association with Card is damaging and undesirable.
How can you reach any other conclusion?

[Ardorx]

I plan to not watch a film based on Empire, yes.

Well, if you're going to boycott chair and epic and all the people involved with Shadow Complex(better boycott Microsoft too, they let it get published) you then have to avoid all Warner Bros. productions.

[NinjaFusion]

That isn't the point. The point is that while Card will receive proceeds for his "contributions", not purchasing the game effects more then just Card, speaking specifically of profit.

then companies will perhaps think before working with similar people in the future....


surely epic has gay employees? do they endorse having their rights taken away?

[element]

I don't support OSC social views at all, but I can't live my life worrying about supporting or not supporting based on someone's social views.

I couldn't eat food.
In N Out owners are crazy and Chick-fil-a owner is REALLY crazy. One of the huge grocery chains is owned by crazy fundamentalist.

Couldn't see movies.
Either AMC or another chain is owned by a crazy fundamentalist guy.

the list could go on an on, for both sides.

Can't live your life based on who you may be supporting without knowing it.

[Josh7289]

I personally boycott the Dragon Quest series because the composer, Koichi Sugiyama, denies the Japanese Empire's guilt in the Nanking Massacre, and he publicly advertises/advocates his position.

I'm not sure what to do about Shadow Complex, though... I'll have to read more into it.

Personally, I'm against having marriage of any kind in the law in the first place, but that's another story...