[Mercury Fred]

Do you realize how many amazing works of art, literature and cinema have been made that you've loved, that have probably been written by homophobes, racists and pedophiles? If you're going to stop playing games because they are associated with someone who is this, you better stop doing a lot of things. The slippery slope goes far. For example. You should never, ever read anything by Lovecraft. And you probably should ditch the classic works by Aldous Huxley. If the only issue is you have trouble contributing -any- money to -any- homophone currently alive, then the problem is you've probably done it HUNDREDS of times and you just didn't know it. But these games are a collection of their parts. No one person represents the product in this case. Nobody anywhere is endorsing homophobia through this product. In essence, it comes to this: we have to accept in our gray world, where things often don't have perfect conclusions or morally "right" endings, that people who are racist and homophobic and who like to molest kids... they sometimes make great things. They sometimes make amazing, wonderful things. And that extends to games as well. You should do what you feel is right as it's your money, but you should also acknowledge that you are not going to hurt Orson Scott Card or send him any message he will understand. He is already highly successful, and has made good works of art. He is also a homophobe. Thus is the nature of our dark world.

As has been pointed out many, many times already in this thread, there is a big difference between holding a particular view and using one's power, money and influence to push an agenda that strips rights from other people.

[Joe Molotov]

Add "Shadow Complex" and "Epic" to the banned filter. That worked really well last time!!

[mavs]

You guys are just being ridiculous now. I don't see what Epic's prior products have to do with this. The real productive thing to do is track and down every copy of Shadow Complex and smash it with a hammer.

:lol Get to it, Ninja.

[NullPointer]

Is this a rhetorical question? This has got to be one of the strangest posts in the gaming discussion forum that I've seen in a while, which is saying something.

What exactly is it saying?

don't answer me

[Me_Marcadet]

I wonder what the reactions would be if there was a thread who says you must buy the game because of the same reasons.

And since when being against homosexual marriage is being homophobe ?

[Big-E]

You know what, you're right. Boycott the game, save gay rights! That will show him. :lol

I haven't even said we should all boycott the game. I am trying to defend the ones that did because they are being attacked by idiots in this thread for no reason at all.

[EmCeeGramr]

Do you realize how many amazing works of art, literature and cinema have been made that you've loved, that have probably been written by homophobes, racists and pedophiles? If you're going to stop playing games because they are associated with someone who is this, you better stop doing a lot of things. The slippery slope goes far. For example. You should never, ever read anything by Lovecraft. And you probably should ditch the classic works by Aldous Huxley. If the only issue is you have trouble contributing -any- money to -any- homophone currently alive, then the problem is you've probably done it HUNDREDS of times and you just didn't know it. But these games are a collection of their parts. No one person represents the product in this case. Nobody anywhere is endorsing homophobia through this product. In essence, it comes to this: we have to accept in our gray world, where things often don't have perfect conclusions or morally "right" endings, that people who are racist and homophobic and who like to molest kids... they sometimes make great things. They sometimes make amazing, wonderful things. And that extends to games as well. You should do what you feel is right as it's your money, but you should also acknowledge that you are not going to hurt Orson Scott Card or send him any message he will understand. He is already highly successful, and has made good works of art. He is also a homophobe. Thus is the nature of our dark world.

Wow, slippery slope fallacy and just saying "well the world sucks, so no point trying to make things better." Literary skill on par with Card's (he is a terrible writer).

[Souldriver]

Do you realize how many amazing works of art, literature and cinema have been made that you've loved, that have probably been written by homophobes, racists and pedophiles? If you're going to stop playing games because they are associated with someone who is this, you better stop doing a lot of things. The slippery slope goes far. For example. You should never, ever read anything by Lovecraft. And you probably should ditch the classic works by Aldous Huxley. If the only issue is you have trouble contributing -any- money to -any- homophone currently alive, then the problem is you've probably done it HUNDREDS of times and you just didn't know it. But these games are a collection of their parts. No one person represents the product in this case. Nobody anywhere is endorsing homophobia through this product.

True. But if you know and the matter at hand is important to you, it's easy to see how a person can have trouble giving money to said product, right? What you're saying is basically an elaborate version of "Well, if you're a vegetarian, why don't you just go live in a tree!" or "If you're against global warming, why don't you just kill yourself, cause you also release carbon dioxide!".

Off course nobody can be 100% consistent with his ideals/morals, cause nobody is 100% all knowing (or f.e. has the financial means to). But it's a admirable thing to try and be as consistent as possible with them.

[xbhaskarx]

I think boycotts only work when they are very targeted so that people can actually participate in them...I think a boycott of anyone who has anything to do with UE3 doesn't really target the Card relationship and makes the whole idea kind of a joke.

It depends on if your goal is. If it's just to deprive Chair/Card of your money, just boycotting Shadow Complex makes sense. If it's depriving Chair/Card of your money and making the point clear "that the association WITH Card is damaging and undesirable", then you're wrong. Since those are your words, I assume the goal is the latter.

If you can somehow convince 10,000 people to not buy Shadow Complex, you're depriving Epic/Chair/Card of their share of $150,000, which is barely noticeable considering how well Shadow Complex will sell and how much money Epic makes.
Obviously the broader the boycott, the bigger the financial impact would be. If those 10,000 people also stop buying all Epic games, that's 10,000 X their share of $60 X the number of Epic games now and in the future. If you expand it further and those 10,000 people stop buying all games from companies that license UE3, that's a much much bigger number, maybe large enough that Epic would actually notice and put an end to any future collaboration with Card, and it would make other companies less likely to work with Card in the future.

So if you really care that much, stop buying UE3 games, and inform the companies that license UE3 that you won't buy their games as long as they use UE3, or as long as Epic works with Card.

Your belief that boycotts are only effective "when they are very targeted so that people can actually participate in them" is strange when "people" is "you". If a certain number of people are willing to boycott Shadow Complex, it's not like fewer people will boycott Shadow Complex because YOU and the other people who are so outraged in this thread are also boycotting all Epic and UE3 games. Even if you lose some people with each step the boycott is expanded beyond Shadow Complex (Chair games, Epic games, UE3 games), the total amount of money would still be much greater, not less. For example, I'm vegan, so I don't eat any meat, dairy, etc. I'm never going to convince my mom not to consume dairy, but I did get her to stop eating meat. By your logic, if I can't get others to give up dairy, I should just eat dairy myself. Perhaps the difference is I actually care about being vegan aside from making some point on a forum where half the people boycotting Shadow Complex were probably never going to buy it in the first place.

[Sipowicz]

i think the topic of the thread is silly but only because of the wording

"we" suggests that neogaf is some homogenous mass of left leaning, socially conscious gamers who are ready to take up any cause that raises our ire.

at the end of the day it's a personal decision. all you can do is educate people as to this man's views and his contribution, he's making and let them make their own mind up. they could be so disgusted that they'd never buy an epic game again. alternatively they could agree with his views and admire his willingness to speak out.

as to whether it'll make any difference i have to say no. it's epic on the 360 with a shooty game. i expect any boycott to make as much difference as the call of duty "boycott" as admirable as intentions might be

[Smash88]

Do you realize how many amazing works of art, literature and cinema have been made that you've loved, that have probably been written by homophobes, racists and pedophiles? If you're going to stop playing games because they are associated with someone who is this, you better stop doing a lot of things. The slippery slope goes far. For example. You should never, ever read anything by Lovecraft. And you probably should ditch the classic works by Aldous Huxley. If the only issue is you have trouble contributing -any- money to -any- homophobe currently alive, then the problem is you've probably done it HUNDREDS of times and you just didn't know it. But these games are a collection of their parts. No one person represents the product in this case. Nobody anywhere is endorsing homophobia through this product. In essence, it comes to this: we have to accept in our gray world, where things often don't have perfect conclusions or morally "right" endings, that people who are racist and homophobic and who like to molest kids... they sometimes make great things. They sometimes make amazing, wonderful things. And that extends to games as well. You should do what you feel is right as it's your money, but you should also acknowledge that you are not going to hurt Orson Scott Card or send him any message he will understand. He is already highly successful, and has made good works of art. He is also a homophobe. Thus is the nature of our dark world.

This. I completely agree with what you are saying. This is what I was trying to say Big-E.

Also, Big-E if no one cared what he was against, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, nor would the countless of other groups out there who are trying to boycott different products due to those peoples own beliefs.

Also I never attacked anyone wanting to boycott, or if you see it that way, I never meant to. This thread has also given me more information on Card, and what he does and in the future if I do see his book for instance, where the majority of the profit goes, I will avoid it.

[Google]

As has been pointed out many, many times already in this thread, there is a big difference between holding a particular view and using one's power, money and influence to push an agenda that strips rights from other people.

There are more than enough affluent celebrities using their power, money and influence to push the exact opposite agenda.

[Hark]

I'm of the "Judge the art and not the artist" school of thought. I understand the point that the people boycotting the game are trying to make but it's an absurdly slippery slope.

I find it very funny that the left is known for huge free speech support yet this seems like the digital equivalent of a book burning.

Wait.... what? You should really think about your comments before comparing a boycott to book burning.

[xbhaskarx]

Do you realize how many amazing works of art, literature and cinema have been made that you've loved, that have probably been written by homophobes, racists and pedophiles? If you're going to stop playing games because they are associated with someone who is this, you better stop doing a lot of things.

I'm reminded of the Curb episode where Larry David was yelled at by a random Jewish person for humming Wagner (famous anti-Semite).

[TheKurgan]

lol @ all the "i dont care who/what made the game as long as its good ill buy it" people you guys would buy furniture put together in concentration camps made by Hitler Inc. too? who cares about his views right ? they make damn good tables it DOES matter how products are made or whos associated with them for fucks sake

How do you make the jump from political/religious contributions to Nazi concentration camps?

If Chair was funding genocide then YES I would probably boycott their game. But they aren’t so I won’t.

[hampig]

I haven't even said we should all boycott the game. I am trying to defend the ones that did because they are being attacked by idiots in this thread for no reason at all.

No, they're being attacked because of flawed logic. It's as simple as that. I'm all for gay rights, whatever, fine by me. But I recognize that punishing an entire team of hard working people just to put a small dent in a already rich mans pocket is a stupid idea.

[Big-E]

There are more than enough affluent celebrities using their power, money and influence to push the exact opposite agenda.

WTF is the point of this?

[Divvy]

There are more than enough affluent celebrities using their power, money and influence to push the exact opposite agenda.

And if you`re against their actions, you`re free to refrain from giving them money too. It`s not a one-sided affair.

[ALeperMessiah]

If conservatives followed the logic of the OP they wouldn't be able to watch, read, listen, or play anything.

[FoneBone]

There are more than enough affluent celebrities using their power, money and influence to push the exact opposite agenda.

And homophobes are free to boycott those people if they choose. What's your point?

[Timber]

I find it very funny that the left is known for huge free speech support yet this seems like the digital equivalent of a book burning.

holy fucking shit

How is someone's personal decision not to purchase something in order to make a statement, as minimal as it might be, akin to book burning in the slightest? What a god damned disgusting thing to say.

I don't know why I keep being astounded by the ignorance of some... no, scratch that, most people, but time after time it happens.

True, it's a shame that in all probability there are people involved in the making of this game who do not have a say in whether or not to work with Card. But let's face the facts here: the people who boycott the game (essentially not buying a product- oh what grave injustice towards its makers!) aren't taking money away from anyone. They are simply not giving money. That is a right of all people and all consumers and doing it because of the publicized involvement of someone who has not only spewed hateful crap on numerous occasions, but also actively attempts to withhold rights from certain parts of the population, is a valid reason. Don't fucking go around telling them it isn't. And what else are they supposed to do to show their disgust with Card? The most effective thing the average person can do it to steer clear of anything he makes a profit on: books, videogames, whatever else. And when the only other option is to acquiesce, the choice is easily made.

There is no way Shadow Complex will not be financially succesful, profitable game. I don't think the developing company is in any danger of going under because of poor sales. And I take it that the majority of people working there have a set salary. They are not directly affected by the choice of some people not to buy their game and thus everyone goes home happy. It's a matter of making a statement; no one is taking away money from anyone.

[nightez]

If Jack Thompson helped make a non-violent puzzle game that was great, and you knew some of the money he made was going to his activities he is commonly known for, would you still buy the game?

Honestly if it was a great game, like really genre defining, I would buy it.

But I don't think Shadow Complex as a game is some sort of propaganda from the anti-gay lobby. There may have even been gay developers/staff members involved in making it. I think you even said in the opening post that he had nothing to do with making the game.

And honestly if he is such a rich guy like people say, this game wont make much of difference to his wealth.

[Yoritomo]

Maybe homophobia and stereotyping was why IGN gave God Hand such a low score. IGN was just ahead of its time.

Anyhow. I took this online quiz and it says I'm not a homophobe so you can buy games from me if I make them.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../etc/quiz.html

32 - Your score rates you as "non-homophobic."

[squinters]

This is the exact equivalent of someone boycotting Pepsi because they support gays.

If you want to oppose a good product because of the people behind it then go ahead, but you'll probably have to find a new hobbies, because a lot of men are involved with making games and I'm not sure they all share the same views you do.

[Wizpig]

Worst thread? Maybe, but only because of replies like yours. Yes, that is a valid reason not to buy a game. But I guess this falls on deaf ears to people like you who don't give more than an ounce of thought to things, bumble along in their ignorance and are afraid to live in the real world.

Ah, of course... a hate reply, was to be expected, but look, i didn't want to upset anyone; as i said, i think Card is an idiot, a bigot if you prefer... but now you're saying i'm bumbling something... and afraid to live in the... ?

Honestly, you can tell all that from a single reply?
I didn't even say i want to support Card; in fact, i'm not going to buy his "products."

I just think it's stupid trying to "boycott" a product, Shadow Complex, that is NOT made by Card, and i think he will receive only minor compensation.
Boycott his damn books or something; HERE you are trying to boycott the developer cHair so that they end up like Grin with Bionic Commando.

Short version: calm down? please?

[Calcaneus]

As has been pointed out many, many times already in this thread, there is a big difference between holding a particular view and using one's power, money and influence to push an agenda that strips rights from other people.

This thread is going in circles because nobody wants to pay attention to this point.

[Felix Lighter]

You guys must really despise the Volkswagen Beetle.

[Booshka]

This thread has gone much further than I thought it would, all this political correctness is ridiculous. If you don't want to support something fine, but don't go on a decency campaign, and try to enlist people to join the fight in your political correctness crusade.

[Yoritomo]

If conservatives followed the logic of the OP they wouldn't be able to watch, read, listen, or play anything.

Basically no one would be able to buy anything from anyone who is old.

[Amir0x]

Wow, slippery slope fallacy and just saying "well the world sucks, so no point trying to make things better." Literary skill on par with Card's (he is a terrible writer).

One, it's not a fallacy. It is logical to conclude that if person A believes nothing made by a homophobe should be supported if it is possible to contribute to some anti-homosexual agenda, then the result of that belief could extend further to classic literature written by such individuals (because what message does that send!), to other games made by bit players who happened to be homophobes. I established my chain.

The resulting point is simple, and it's not "well the world sucks, live with it!" It is merely that good works of art (whether games, movies or literature) - regardless of whatever you think of Card's writing abilities - is separate from the personal demons of its authors.

And in this case, you're "hurting" far more people who are almost certainly not homophobes, when instead you could do a trillion times more good simply donating to charity if you're annoyed by his association.

IF you believe money here is going to fund some anti-homosexual agenda, you're free to boycott. But there are far better ways to impact change on the world in a legitimate fashion than this. Your desire to push this change is not going to come any faster either way.

True. But if you know and the matter at hand is important to you, it's easy to see how a person can have trouble giving money to said product, right? What you're saying is basically an elaborate version of "Well, if you're a vegetarian, why don't you just go live in a tree!" or "If you're against global warming, why don't you just kill yourself, cause you also release carbon dioxide!". Off course nobody can be 100% consistent with his ideals/morals, cause nobody is 100% all knowing (or f.e. has the financial means to). But it's a admirable thing to try and be as consistent as possible with them.

Absolutely. I understand where the anger comes from, particularly after Prop 8. People want scapegoats, a way to feel like they're affecting change. And it's within anyone's rights to not buy the product because his name is attached. I am saying that

1. Everyone in this topic has purchased a game which has financially benefited a homophobe at some point.
2. The value of art is separate from the author's personal demons.

Orson Scott Card is a terrible person, but many would say he has written valuable works. At least, much of his work has been very well received.

That said, I only wanted to point out that it's impossible to not have your money support bad people, and that in the case of Shadow Complex you're hurting a team of individuals who are most certainly not racist or homophobic. The vast majority of the money on this game goes to them. And you can offset the pennies he gets from the product by donating to your favorite charity.

If you choose protest, I think there are better ways than not playing a good game. But, I can understand where it comes from.

[Mercury Fred]

There are more than enough affluent celebrities using their power, money and influence to push the exact opposite agenda.

:lol

Uh, so using their, um, evil power to increase rights for people. The horror!

And of course, you're free to not buy the art made by those people as well if full civil equality is such an offensive concept to you.

This thread is going in circles because nobody wants to pay attention to this point.

True, as long as people ignore it, I'm just going to keep posting it.

[MrHicks]

How do you make the jump from political/religious contributions to Nazi concentration camps? If Chair was funding genocide then YES I would probably boycott their game. But they aren’t so I won’t.

i was just making an extreme example of people buying the product wathever its origins

summary

1) bob thinks asian people are subhuman/inhuman and should be treated as such
2) bob makes kickass game
3) bob uses profits from said game to promoto that asians are inhuman

now would you or would you not buy said game?
personally i cant do it
many dont give a flying fuck though

[EmCeeGramr]

One, it's not a fallacy. It is logical to conclude that if person A believes nothing made by a homophobe should be supported if it is possible to contribute to some anti-homosexual agenda, then the result of that belief could extend further to classic literature written by such individuals (because what message does that send!), to other games made by bit players who happened to be homophobes. I established my chain.

Yes, reading classic well-known literature written by people with controversial opinions who are dead and gone is exactly the same as giving money to people who actively run campaigns to deny others human rights.

IF you believe money here is going to fund some anti-homosexual agenda, you're free to boycott. But there are far better ways to impact change on the world in a legitimate fashion than this. Your desire to push this change is not going to come any faster either way.

Nobody's claiming there aren't. Pointless remark. You can do little things while still focusing on big ones. Nobody's making "boycott Card" their life's work here.

[Mercury Fred]

IF you believe money here is going to fund some anti-homosexual agenda, you're free to boycott. But there are far better ways to impact change on the world in a legitimate fashion than this. Your desire to push this change is not going to come any faster either way.

Why is it either or? Why can't people boycott this game while working in other ways?

And as has been stated before, Epic can release a statement and / or make a donation to repeal Prop 8 and all is forgiven.

[bj00rn_]

As long as the connection isn't direct, severe or apparant in the game, there is no reason in my opinion to boycott it.

While we're at it: Should we boycott medicine arised from unethical Nazi research?

[Big-E]

Yes, reading classic well-known literature written by people with controversial opinions who are dead and gone is exactly the same as giving money to people who actively run campaigns to deny others human rights.

It is man because everyone has opinions and everyone is entitled to those opinions! You can't live in reality without running into people with different opinions.

[Dude Abides]

What has been largely ignored because of Card's anti-gay bigotry is that the source book, Empire, is basically a more well-written version of The Turner Diaries. Didn't stop me from buying the game though.

[NullPointer]

The worst part of this is that if the boycott ever reached a point that could be defined as "successful", it wouldn't end up reducing homophobia in any way. It would just cause the other side to entrench deeper, radicalize further, and line their coffers in new and improved ways.

People around the world are homophobic. People around the world try to push their morality upon others, and seek legislation to justify or ignore their actions. A boycott on a game, a quality game, a game that has no homophobic overtones*... it just... comes across as some kind of infantile power trip. The world is already dead set on a course that will see full rights for gay individuals and couples - its only a matter of time. And when you have a choice to pick your battles on this front, you choose Epic and Shadow Complex?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees. It comes across, to me, as petty. You reduce the stature of your cause to petulance. And you cast such a wide net of affiliated wrong-doers that you end up creating more animosity in people who didn't have any to begin with.

But hey, do what you want to do. You call things out as you see em, and I'll reserve the right to do the same.

* Can't say I know this for sure, I only just reached level 7. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that I'm right.

[dark10x]

This is the exact equivalent of someone boycotting Pepsi because they support gays. If you want to oppose a good product because of the people behind it then go ahead, but you'll probably have to find a new hobbies, because a lot of men are involved with making games and I'm not sure they all share the same views you do.

The people behind Shadow Complex DO NOT oppose gays. One man, who had nothing to do with the development of the game, is where the blame is being aimed. Don't buy his damn books if you want to boycott something.

This kind of shit pisses me off just as much as the kind of bullshit Card himself is spewing (though obviously this is less hurtful).

A boycott on a game, a quality game, a game that has no homophobic overtones*... it just... comes across as some kind of infantile power trip.

Pretty much. I can't help but take those arguing for a boycott much less seriously. They sound childish and I'm one who completely disagrees and despises Orson Scott Card. I just can't fathom how anyone could think that something like this would be worthwhile. If you're really serious about working to help the gay community, this is about the least effective thing you could do. NOBODY is going to connect the failure of this game to the anti-gay sentiments of an idiot author like Card.

[Cheech]

This is the exact equivalent of someone boycotting Pepsi because they support gays.

It's actually worse than that, because Card is just one author. Pepsi is a gigantic, multinational corporation. Same for Disney.

OP is a hypocrite, if he drinks Pepsi or has ever bought a Disney product. Not buying a product because you perceive someone involved as evil, nobody is going to have an issue with that. But posting such on a forum that thousands of people read, well, that is something different. He's now no better than Pepsi, Disney, or Card himself for whoring his controversial views out to the general public.

Shadow Complex is awesome, BTW.

[freddy]

So, respect to everyone? Or are not giving respect to those that disagree with boycotting? What the hell do you mean, exactly?

The people I intended it for will know it was written for them. Whatever conclusion you end up with, if at all, I really don't care. Sorry.

[kodt]

True, as long as people ignore it, I'm just going to keep posting it.

I posed a question that was largely ignored.

If Orson Scott Card owned your local electric company would you have your electricity disconnected?

Expand that.. what if he had a monopoly on all of the electricity in the USA? (or whatever country you live in)

[farnham]

how about a no

i really respect gay people and all

but let that man have his opinion

sure i dont share that view but you cannot discredit everything he does because of this

plus shadow complex isnt even from him.. its just a game that has a story that is loosely based on some of his works..

[Big-E]

I posed a question that was largely ignored. If Orson Scott Card owned your local electric company would you have your electricity disconnected? Expand that.. what if he had a monopoly on all of the electricity in the USA? (or whatever country you live in)

So you are equating a situation where spending 15 dollars on a video game console using space bucks is comparable to paying an essential utility in order to live. Thanks guy.

[thetrin]

I think I would boycott the game if it overtly presented Card's religious and political beliefs in a way that I found distasteful (like for instance, the way Alan Moore presents his own beliefs in Promethea), but so far, it doesn't. The story seems like a pretty generic story of political intrigue.

[SuperAngelo64]

I don't support gay marriage but I think Queen and The Pet Shop Boys are awesome bands.

I try not to let my politics mix with my leisure.

[Divvy]

It's actually worse than that, because Card is just one author. Pepsi is a gigantic, multinational corporation. Same for Disney. OP is a hypocrite, if he drinks Pepsi or has ever bought a Disney product. Not buying a product because you perceive someone involved as evil, nobody is going to have an issue with that. But posting such on a forum that thousands of people read, well, that is something different. He's now no better than Pepsi, Disney, or Card himself for whoring his controversial views out to the general public. Shadow Complex is awesome, BTW.

What. This is a discussion forum, not a product or any form of media. The OP is not pouring money into the `stop buying Shadow Complex`foundation. He is merely expressing his personal views for discussion.

[Mercury Fred]

I posed a question that was largely ignored. If Orson Scott Card owned your local electric company would you have your electricity disconnected? Expand that.. what if he had a monopoly on all of the electricity in the USA? (or whatever country you live in)

Yeah, an essential utility for modern living is the same as a leisure product.

Horrible, actually embarrassingly bad analogy.

[Father_Brain]

True, as long as people ignore it, I'm just going to keep posting it.

Well, at least this thread has a considerably lesser percentage of people missing the point than those "OMG N'GAI CROAL SAYS RE5 IS RACIST" threads from last year.

[TheChillyAcademic]

Anyone here see Zanna Don't?

I have to wonder what the reaction would be if the tables were turned, if someone, at the same level Card, was as outspoken against Heterosexual.