[Zzoram]

I'm not buying because I'm not interested.

[Brobzoid]

Damn, I missed nine pages of outrage countered by faux-outrage regarding something I am entirely removed from? :(

OUTRAGEOUS!

Anyway... If people think it's reason enough to not purchase the game, then by all means do not, otherwise don't let the morality of others reign over your own. The Gaygamer.net article seems to have said it all.

Unless this thread, along it's nine pages, veered off into the 'should we enjoy culture from bigots even when there is no bigotry in their art' debate, to which is I say: Sure, why not.

[Bitmap Frogs]

I can't change the whole world by myself, so I'm not even going to try to change anything at all. Do you steal? Do you lie? Do you murder? If not, why not? The world's evil anyway lol!

Maybe I didn't word it properly, but if it's a matter of trying to change the world for the better there's much more meaningful ways than boycotting Shadow Complex.

The thing is, it's much easier to pass on a videogame than to pass on cheapo electronics, affordable branded apparel or meat burgers.

Boycotting Shadow Complex to hurt somewhat OSC income is like a small donation to a church or charity - you'll barely miss the spare change and it'll pump your ego because it's for "a good cause".

[Burger]

Please excuse my heterosexual naivety, but are there really Gay Charities ?

I'm all for gay rights, gay marriage, adoption etc... But charities ? I mean lobby groups are one thing, but I thought charities were for sick animals and cancer and shit.

[Mercury Fred]

Demonizing people who disagree with you is always fun. They are "wilfull" and "dumb fucks" and all that other useful invective.

Interesting. Who when did I use the term "dumb fucks"?

Also pointing out facts is "demonizing" now? I'll make a note of that.

I was referring specifically to people who continue to ignore the distinction being made between Card and your garden variety homophobe. Card is a powerful, organizer dedicated to stripping people of civil rights. But everyone wants to gloss over that and say OMG boycott over someone's beliefs.

[p2535748]

While I certainly have no problem with anyone choosing not to spend their money on Shadow Complex, for me it's about picking your battles. A very small portion of the money I spent on Shadow Complex will go to Orson Scott Card, an even smaller portion will ever be used for a cause which I find objectionable.

Unless I'm directly contributing to something, I try not to think about this sort of thing too much. Yes, it's willful ignorance, but if I worried about where every dollar I spend ends up, I'd go crazy. I try to give money directly to causes I support and hope that everything else works itself out.

If I find myself feeling bad about it later on, I'll just contribute to a pro-gay marriage cause.

[Askani]

:lol You got to be kidding me. You honestly think that comparing buying a 1200 space bucks game is equivalent to buying a utility that allows you to see in the dark, cook and preserve your food, warm your water. I want this to be clear as this is what you are agreeing is a valid analogy.

Quit reading so much into stuff. You said that it is essential to life. I said it's not because, well...it's not. It is a requirement of your lifestyle. If electricity was a requirement for life, no one would be here if that was the case because the everyday use of electricity came well after humans as a species. People to this day live without electricity or it's benefits at all.

Secondly, it's a thought experiment to see how deep your convictions are. If Card owned your electric grid, would you buy electricity from him? You don't need it to live, but you need it to live your lifestyle. No...it's not the same. It's not the same at all...but that wasn't even the point of the person asking the question. I don't even care about your answer because it wasn't my question.

Third, I said I wasn't advocating it was a valid analogy. Reread my post. Just pointing out a flaw in your logic regarding it.

[Timber]

*If* this thread's boycott happened on a wide scale, made the press, was "successful", it'll do more harm than good. That's what I mean by picking battles. Its also what I meant by spite instead of strategy. This is all of course, opinion.

I have no idea what exactly would happen in that hypothetical situation. Again, it seems quite presumptuous of you to claim to know this. And this is something that goes beyond just Proposition 8. I can only speak for myself, but my personal boycott of Shadow Complex is a matter of conscience, not politics. And I'm not going to make decisions that go against my conscience just because it will strengthen the resolve of an opposition that will indubitably lose the battle anyway.

But let's keep this grounded in reality. This will never extend beyond a few internet forums :)

[Gaz Pwnage]

no.

[elrechazado]

Interesting. Who when did I use the term "dumb fucks"? Also pointing out facts is "demonizing" now? I'll make a note of that. I was referring specifically to people who continue to ignore the distinction being made between Card and your garden variety homophobe. Card is a powerful, organizer dedicated to stripping people of civil rights. But everyone wants to gloss over that and say OMG boycott over someone's beliefs.

My sincere apologies. Your calm and measured discourse said they had thick fucking skulls, not that they were dumb fucks. I crave your pardon sir for my boorish behavior.

[Mercury Fred]

My sincere apologies. Your calm and measured discourse said they had thick fucking skulls, not that they were dumb fucks. I crave your pardon sir for my boorish behavior.

+1 ignore list.

[TheKurgan]

Uhm No He has a series of books and Chair approached him (there is a long standing history between the founders and Card, going back to Advent Rising, they're friends) to do a video game version based on the novel. Instead, Shadow Complex exists as a prequel to the novel, with the concept and consultation done by Card on staff. He also collects royalties in addition to being involved with the game. It would really help if you read the thread first.

No I thankfully haven't read this full thread. Everytime I come back to it there seems to be another hunderd posts. I did read the OP and made my comments based off the "However, its set in an Orson Scott Card's world he wrote. Now he has self admitted he didnt have much to do with this game, but, he will be getting profits for the game"

Honestly at this point I don't care anymore - I am checking out of this thread. I have already bought Shadow Complex and would recommend it to anyone looking for a good XBL game. Down with boycotts!

[Zenith]

I just remembered I feel an innate distaste every time I hear Wagner music due to his anti-semitism. Self-conflict!

[industrian]

I'm boycotting this by having not enough money.

I'm boycotting it because for some reason I can't access the Marketplace with my UK console in Korea.

[lastendconductor]

Most of the money is going to people whose views on homosexuality are unknown, so not only this boycott wouldn't have any significant impact on O.S.C., it would be unfair.

[truly101]

Hey, Card lives in my home town, though I'm not sure why. Not a lot of mormons in Greensboro NC.

[Ramenman]

Now he has self admitted he didnt have much to do with this game, but, he will be getting profits for the game[/URL]

See, this guy has very little to do with this game, so boycotting it wouldn't do shit to him. Boycott one of his books if you want to hit him, not some sidework he did for a game.

It'd be like boycotting the next Splinter Cell the day Tom Clancy does something really bad.

That's why I think it's kind of pointless to boycott Shadow Complex for those reasons, but to each his own. I wasn't going to buy the game anyway.

[ShockingAlberto]

Please excuse my heterosexual naevity, but are there really Gay Charities ? I'm all for gay rights, gay marriage, adoption etc... But charities ? I mean lobby groups are one thing, but I thought charities were for sick animals and cancer and shit.

There's things like GLSEN, which seems to end sexual discrimination against gays, lesbians, and transgendered people, especially in regard to bullying in school by both other students and faculty. They work as a non-profit organization with three thousand volunteers and forty full time staff, donations generally go to paying them.

There's GLAAD, which does much the same thing, but not focused just on school harassment. They work with churches to raise awareness that homosexuality isn't evil, run outreach programs for gay and straight people alike, and have care-centers that don't really run for free.

There's also PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays), which has been sued by evangelicals like Pat Robertson in an effort to keep their campaigns of gay acceptance of family members off the air. Those legal bills aren't exactly free.

It's not charity in the sense you know it, but the money goes to good causes.

[Tobor]

I won't be purchasing this. I'm debating writing a letter to Epic as well. This is very unfortunate, as I wanted to play the game, but I can't justify putting money in OSC's pocket.

[ShockingAlberto]

Most of the money is going to people whose views on homosexuality are unknown, so not only this boycott wouldn't have any significant impact on O.S.C., it would be unfair.

Then they should have thought about that when working on a game with an outspoken critic of homosexuality?

I am sure there are really nice Production Assistants on Rush Limbaugh's show, but I would be totally okay with his show faltering without my money. Not that it would ever happen, but at least I know he's not getting it.

[Big-E]

Quit reading so much into stuff. You said that it is essential to life. I said it's not because, well...it's not. It is a requirement of your lifestyle. If electricity was a requirement for life, no one would be here if that was the case because the everyday use of electricity came well after humans as a species. People to this day live without electricity or it's benefits at all. Secondly, it's a thought experiment to see how deep your convictions are. If Card owned your electric grid, would you buy electricity from him? You don't need it to live, but you need it to live your lifestyle. No...it's not the same. It's not the same at all...but that wasn't even the point of the person asking the question. I don't even care about your answer because it wasn't my question. Third, I said I wasn't advocating it was a valid analogy. Reread my post. Just pointing out a flaw in your logic regarding it.

Listen to yourself! You are arguing that in the 21st century electricity is not essential to life. Care to live off the grid for your entire life in a Canadian city? I guess you can because you say it ain't essential now is it? You say you are not advocating it as a valid analogy than why the fuck are you arguing? There are no holes in my logic as I am not stupid enough to equate a luxury video game purchase with my ability to survive.

[NullPointer]

I have no idea what exactly would happen in that hypothetical situation. Again, it seems quite presumptuous of you to claim to know this. And this is something that goes beyond just Proposition 8. I can only speak for myself, but my personal boycott of Shadow Complex is a matter of conscience, not politics. And I'm not going to make decisions that go against my conscience just because it will strengthen the resolve of an opposition that will indubitably lose the battle anyway. But let's keep this grounded in reality. This will never extend beyond a few internet forums :)

Well you got me - I *am* damn presumptuous. :) That's true, but I've got enough recent history (Prop 8's success and spite-filled aftermath as one example) to believe in this. What you do with your own money is very much your business, and you're going about it the right way imo. Once the word "boycott" comes out, then it becomes a campaign made to have wider impact - and that's when politics and political reality enters into the equation.

But yeah, I'll try to stay as grounded as I can, and only say that there is almost nothing I believe more in these days than voting with your wallet.

[EternalGamer]

The issue of separating the art from the artist (as someone else termed it "the Heidegger dilemma") is an issue I have always struggled with. Ultimately I do think a work should be judged on its own terms, but I also think that is a bit of a cop out because you can't deny the material reality that you ARE supporting this person's work and they are benefiting from it (unless they are no longer living, that is the real "out" I see).

In this case, it is a more indirect link on one hand because Card is one step removed from the game, but the fact that Chair has an established relationship with him really makes me concerned and pushes the matter further than I am personally comfortable with. This is clearly not just a coincidental association where Chair thought Card had a idea that would make a good game. This is the SECOND game they have made based on his ideologically charged novels.

Given that, I wish I had known all this before I purchased the game. There are far more good games than I will ever have the time to purchase and play and if I can get buy without supporting a company that likes to buddy up with radical homophobes, then all the better. I certainly won't be purchasing a "Shadow Complex 2" or any other game that Chair makes as long as they maintain this relationship.

[Me_Marcadet]

As has been pointed out many, many times already in this thread, there is a big difference between holding a particular view and using one's power, money and influence to push an agenda that strips rights from other people.

The thing I don't understand is the part where you say it strips rights from other people.

Isn't it just about homosexual marriage ?

I live in France so I don't know how it is in the states, but being aginst homosexual marriage is not being against other people rights.

It would be more apropriate to say that you boycott because it contributes to stop new laws you want for your country.

[ShockingAlberto]

The thing I don't understand is the part where you say it strips rights from other people. Isn't it just about homosexual marriage ? I live in France so I don't know how it is in the states, but being aginst homosexual marriage is not being against other people rights. It would be more apropriate to say that you boycott because it contributes to stop new laws you want for your country.

Heh

Here we go

[elrechazado]

Then they should have thought about that when working on a game with an outspoken critic of homosexuality? .

Do you investigate the ideological purity of all products of which you are a consumer? If not, why not? Would you care to disclose your place of employment so we can get out the ideology microscopes for inspection? Have you perused your entire game library to make sure that you are not supporting any other advocates of political positions that you find unacceptable? If not, why not?

[kodt]

Listen to yourself! You are arguing that in the 21st century electricity is not essential to life. Care to live off the grid for your entire life in a Canadian city? I guess you can because you say it ain't essential now is it? You say you are not advocating it as a valid analogy than why the fuck are you arguing? There are no holes in my logic as I am not stupid enough to equate a luxury video game purchase with my ability to survive.

I hate to get back into this but a few things:

1. We never specified where in the world you would be living, the only stipulation was that it is possible to live without electricity. Doesn't have to be in a city (and likely would not). And you would probably want to live somewhere warmer than Canada. Needless to say there are people in the world who currently live without electricity.

2. My point was not even meant to be an analogy and I myself admitted it was horribly uneven if taken as one. I simply asked the question to make a point, that there comes a time when you are no longer willing to give something up for a cause. And on top of that that boycotting Shadow Complex is so insignificant it is not even worth mentioning.

[Coins]

The thing I don't understand is the part where you say it strips rights from other people. Isn't it just about homosexual marriage ? I live in France so I don't know how it is in the states, but being aginst homosexual marriage is not being against other people rights. It would be more apropriate to say that you boycott because it contributes to stop new laws you want for your country.

Wow.

[EternalGamer]

I just remembered I feel an innate distaste every time I hear Wagner music due to his anti-semitism. Self-conflict!

The major difference is that Wagner is dead. You are not financing and you are not furthering the propagation of his ideas by listening to his music. If Wagner was still alive and consciously invoking his antisemitism into his works of art, then you would have a good argument for opposing his music.

[soldat7]

Hey, Card lives in my home town, though I'm not sure why. Not a lot of mormons in Greensboro NC.

Really?

[Tobor]

Then they should have thought about that when working on a game with an outspoken critic of homosexuality? I am sure there are really nice Production Assistants on Rush Limbaugh's show, but I would be totally okay with his show faltering without my money. Not that it would ever happen, but at least I know he's not getting it.

When I used to work in freelance film production, I had the opportunity to work on a political commercial that I did not agree with. A virulent conservative smear piece. I turned it down, even though I needed the money. Some of my friends, also very liberal and good people, could not afford to make that choice, they have families to take care of. It's a tough call, and you can't always afford to make the right choice.

This on the other hand, is a very easy call for me.

[Mercury Fred]

The thing I don't understand is the part where you say it strips rights from other people. Isn't it just about homosexual marriage ? I live in France so I don't know how it is in the states, but being aginst homosexual marriage is not being against other people rights. It would be more apropriate to say that you boycott because it contributes to stop new laws you want for your country.

The Supreme Court of California ruled that denying same sex marriage was a violation of the state constitution and granted the ability for gay people to enter into civil marriage with one another in the state of California. In the U.S., marriage offers a suite of over 1,000 rights and privileges that, obviously, gay people don't have access to.

So Prop 8 was an effort not to block, but to remove rights that had been legally granted by the state.

[Mooreberg]

The thing I don't understand is the part where you say it strips rights from other people. Isn't it just about homosexual marriage ? I live in France so I don't know how it is in the states, but being aginst homosexual marriage is not being against other people rights. It would be more apropriate to say that you boycott because it contributes to stop new laws you want for your country.

I am going to smash the shit out of my copy of Indigo Prophecy later on.

[ShockingAlberto]

Do you investigate the ideological purity of all products of which you are a consumer? If not, why not?

No. In general, if I find out a creator has been up to something I generally disapprove of, I tend to not buy it or just not buy anything from them unless the situation has been rectified.

Would you care to disclose your place of employment so we can get out the ideology microscopes for inspection?

I work at my university, so if you have something against HBCUs in particular, I'd love to hear it.

Have you perused your entire game library to make sure that you are not supporting any other advocates of political positions that you find unacceptable? If not, why not?

*looks*

Everything seems to check out to me. I'm not a huge fan of Yoichi Wada being incompetent, and I don't like Nomura using so many belts, but as far as I know, none of the developers of new games I've purchased have expressly given money to anti-gay rights movements. Though sometimes I do wonder about Nintendo, Tingle can't be a coincidence.

[lastendconductor]

Then they should have thought about that when working on a game with an outspoken critic of homosexuality? I am sure there are really nice Production Assistants on Rush Limbaugh's show, but I would be totally okay with his show faltering without my money. Not that it would ever happen, but at least I know he's not getting it.

But Limbaugh is the star of his show and his show portrays his views, Card is just a small portion of the game project and the project itself doesn't promote his homophobic agenda AFAIK. And maybe the guys at Epic didn't know about his stance on the matter. I've read and own quite a few of his books and didn't know about this until I entered this thread.

[poppabk]

There is also no possible way for us to find out where his imbursements end up. And in light of this, having even a shadow of a doubt is enough for some not to buy the game. Also, I adressed this in an earlier post which, given the speed at which the thread is moving, I can't fault you for not having read. Card is a famous figure, and it's the sales of his products that have made him famous. His fame has given him a platform to express hateful rhetoric. Can you really blame people for not wanting to contribute in the slightest to this?

But not buying this game is unlikely to have any effect on the amount of money that goes into anti-gay causes, and is going to have a negligible effect on his level of fame. Basically a boycott is going to have zero effect on the outcome of gay rights in the US.

[Big-E]

I hate to get back into this but a few things: 1. We never specified where in the world you would be living, the only stipulation was that it is possible to live without electricity. Doesn't have to be in a city (and likely would not). And you would probably want to live somewhere warmer than Canada. Needless to say there are people in the world who currently live without electricity. 2. My point was not even meant to be an analogy and I myself admitted it was horribly uneven if taken as one. I simply asked the question to make a point, that there comes a time when you are no longer willing to give something up for a cause. And on top of that that boycotting Shadow Complex is so insignificant it is not even worth mentioning.

1) Keep amending that stupid analogy even further.

2) Ya that is wonderful. OSC not getting his share of 15 dollars may not hurt him too much but it certainly doesn't help his case so I fail to see how it is not even worth mentioning.

[Sir Fragula]

I just remembered I feel an innate distaste every time I hear Wagner music due to his anti-semitism. Self-conflict!

I can't look up at night knowing that Patrick Moore has a fascist past.

[Askani]

Listen to yourself! You are arguing that in the 21st century electricity is not essential to life. Care to live off the grid for your entire life in a Canadian city? I guess you can because you say it ain't essential now is it?

You choose to live in Canada. There's many places in the world where you could go and live off the grid. No one is asking you to though because it's completely unreasonable It's your lifestyle. Also, I'm not going to list all of the tribes or villages or whatever else around the world today that live off the grid.

You say you are not advocating it as a valid analogy than why the fuck are you arguing? There are no holes in my logic as I am not stupid enough to equate a luxury video game purchase with my ability to survive.

Because you can't remove yourself as you are from a question and choose to not answer a dumb hypothetical question for the right reasons is not my problem. Again, all I was doing was pointing out something you said that is factually untrue. The only reason I've posted in response to this is because you're trying to call me out about you not being able to grasp something simple, although in this case overblown and not that relevant, as a thought experiment.

[truly101]

Really?

HOLY SHIT AN INVASION! I've spent 20+ years there and couldn't tell you where a single LDS church is. Time to call the Illuminati, the Free Masons and the Knights of Columbus. its time for a turf war!

[Me_Marcadet]

Heh Here we go

I just want to know how is it in the states because in France, pro homosexual marriage are not so strong.
I'm against homosexual marriage but I'm for homosexual parenting for example.

The Supreme Court of California ruled that denying same sex marriage was a violation of the state constitution and granted the ability for gay people to enter into civil marriage with one another in the state of California. In the U.S., marriage offers a suite of over 1,000 rights and privileges that, obviously, gay people don't have access to. So Prop 8 was an effort not to block, but to remove rights that had been legally granted by the state.

Thanks for the reply. I understand your point know :)

[EternalGamer]

Most of the money is going to people whose views on homosexuality are unknown, so not only this boycott wouldn't have any significant impact on O.S.C., it would be unfair.

I don't think it is completely correct to say there is NO real association between Chair and these views given that this is the SECOND game they have made based on his works. That is clearly not a random coincidence. It's not just a one off where they saw a cool idea for a game and pursued it. Literary licenses for videogames are incredibly rare. For a company to have TWO products associated with a single author is pretty rare (outside of Clancy and Ubisoft).

The concepts of these games clearly doesn't require a literary association but the designers sought out an associating with Card. Twice.

[Coins]

I just want to know how is it in the states because in France, pro homosexual marriage are not so strong. I'm against homosexual marriage but I'm for homosexual parenting for example.

Why are you against homosexual marriage? Its nice to know why before we can explain. Some people are against it but only because they want a vote on it and not a judge making a decision against the people. Some people are just homophobes who think two people of the same sex shouldnt marry.

[elrechazado]

HOLY SHIT AN INVASION! I've spent 20+ years there and couldn't tell you where a single LDS church is. Time to call the Illuminati, the Free Masons and the Knights of Columbus. its time for a turf war!

Careful, the Knights of Columbus contributed incredible amounts of money and time to the prop 8 campaign as well.

[Asmodai]

Do you investigate the ideological purity of all products of which you are a consumer? If not, why not? Would you care to disclose your place of employment so we can get out the ideology microscopes for inspection? Have you perused your entire game library to make sure that you are not supporting any other advocates of political positions that you find unacceptable? If not, why not?

Oh, of course! At every store I purchase things from, I ask all the cashiers a series of political questions. I will only purchase from stores that share the exact same political ideology I do.

And I only buy videogames developed by Bill Maher. It limits my selection, but you know, I just couldn't stand supporting someone who has different views than my own.

[Divvy]

Why are you against homosexual marriage?

Don't turn this thread into that.

Do you investigate the ideological purity of all products of which you are a consumer? If not, why not? Would you care to disclose your place of employment so we can get out the ideology microscopes for inspection? Have you perused your entire game library to make sure that you are not supporting any other advocates of political positions that you find unacceptable? If not, why not?

Yeah, morality isn't an all-or-nothing affair. People pick their battles. By your logic, no one should ever stand up for their beliefs because no one can be 100% consistent.

[Big-E]

You choose to live in Canada. There's many places in the world where you could go and live off the grid. No one is asking you to though because it's completely unreasonable It's your lifestyle. Also, I'm not going to list all of the tribes or villages or whatever else around the world today that live off the grid.

The question was asked to me. Not some Brazilian Amazonian tribe alright so electricity is an essential commodity in the first world. It is and the fact you keep bringing this up is absurd and asinine. You are arguing semantics for the sake or arguing. How about clothes then? We don't need clothes or running water or heat because back when we were hunter gatherers we we had none of that. Who gives a shit. Life today ain't like what it was even 50 years ago. This is getting off topic so end this here. Arguing whether electricity is essential is retarded because we all in the first world live with it and need it and would not choose to go without on our own accord.

[Ramenman]

I am going to smash the shit out of my copy of Indigo Prophecy later on.

lol

[Coins]

Don't turn this thread into that.

I explained why I asked. :P

[elrechazado]

Oh, of course! At every store I purchase things from, I ask all the cashiers a series of political questions. I will only purchase from stores that share the exact same political ideology I do. And I only buy videogames developed by Bill Maher. It limits my selection, but you know, I just couldn't stand supporting someone who has different views than my own.

By the apparent standards of many people in this thread, this is exactly what they are doing, if their sincerity is to be believed.

Bill Maher? At least pick someone funny :lol