[NullPointer]

I guess Mercenaries 3 is still going to come out.

Great news. Mercenaries 2 was one *very* solid patch away from greatness. But a new iteration that adds more usable controls (instant throw of supports), kills the glitches (spontaneously exploding vehicles anyone?), upgrades the AI (too much to list here), and overhauls the co-op mechanics would be a day one purchase for me.

Mercenaries was one of the very few open world sandboxes that was filled with tons of gameplay. GTA4 can be the master of open world story driven missions, Mercenaries should be the standard for open world emergent battles.

[Madman]

I'm kind of sad to see them go. A fully realized Mercs 3 on Cryengine 3 would have been amazing.

That or Geomod 2.0 would be an awesome addition for the series.

[FLEABttn]

Or they're biggest amount of win. To step foot on WoW's turf nowadays, you need a big IP and what's a bigger IP than Star Wars? The game will sell half of itself on it's name, another portion on it's dev Bioware, and the rest on gameplay.

Star Wars Galaxies only push somewhat over a million boxes. WoW has pushed significantly more than that. Anyone trying to push an MMO that large is taking an incredible risk.

[Conrad Link]

I thought the attention to detail in the first Battlefront game was fantastic, really dug that game.

[Calcaneus]

So this is true, sucks that so many people are losing their jobs.

I always thought that Pandemic was a solid studio. Really liked Mercs and the Battlefront games.

[element]

How did EA not put their foot down and demand that something get shipped?

Because EA doesn't control the IP. WB and DC Comics do.

[SapientWolf]

Guys I just stumbled on this article from Google finance ... If this is accurate I am very very disappointed in you John.

How was that not considered a huge conflict of interest?

[Anticitizen One]

If one good thing can come out of this I just hope that other studios pay attention and focus on better quality control of their games so that they don't wind up like Factor 5 (Lair), Silicon Knights (too human), Pandemic (lotr, merc 2), and free radical (haze)

Also, does anyone get the fealing that Rare will be the next company to go?

[Zeenbor]

I was one of the affected today.

Having worked at Pandemic for close to 5 years, it's a bittersweet moment. We literally just finished Saboteur and are extremely proud of the game it turned out to be, considering the amount of hardships we had during development. On the other hand, we now have no job and are forced to part our ways with people we hold dear to our hearts.

I can tell you one thing. The reason why the studio closed down has everything to do with the existing Pandemic management. From what we were told, Pandemic management was given free reign to do as they please. Time and time again, they dropped the ball with bad decisions (promoting/keeping people based on loyalty, no production accountability, misallocation of resources, poor milestone objectives, no mentoring, etc.). It's a true shame, as there was a lot of talent and passion at the studio.

I wouldn't necessarily hate on JR and EA's execs just yet. In my eyes, they probably made the right decision as Pandemic cost a lot to upkeep and, quite frankly, the last few products weren't up to snuff. I think many of you would be surprised how much a game like Saboteur costs to make (think ~100 people for 3 years + ~20 people for ~2 years). Add overhead cost to incompetence in management/direction and you have a pretty convincing case to cut your ties and call it a day. It probably doesn't look good for JR considering he made a cool 5 mil off of the sale of Pandemic/Bioware.

One more thing I will say: EA is totally sending Saboteur out to die. And it's a fucking shame. It's easily Pandemic's best game yet. Of course, I am a bit biased having worked on the game for so long. If you were disappointed with Mercs2 and LOTR (who wasn't) and enjoyed previous Pandemic games, give Saboteur a shot.

Gonna pour one out for my homies:

[I AM JOHN!]

Thanks for uncandid impressions, Zeenbor. Sorry to hear that you were one of the guys to lose their jobs today; hope you're able to find a new job soon.

[Skerj]

Well I'm going to get Saboteur as it has and probably will continue to be the only WWII era game I've ever given a damn over. I will have a moment of silence as I play for our fallen Pandemic comrades. Sorry to hear you had idiots for management Zeenbor, I know how it is (not now, I love my bosses should they ever see this post).

[Stoney Mason]

One more thing I will say: EA is totally sending Saboteur out to die. And it's a fucking shame. It's easily Pandemic's best game yet. Of course, I am a bit biased having worked on the game for so long.

It definitely looks like a step up from some of the recent games and pretty interesting from the videos I've seen. It's unfortunate that it isn't getting a push.

Sorry to hear about you losing your job. Keep your head up.

[Ninja Scooter]

Best of luck to you guys Zeenbor. Hope the talented folks land on their feet. Mercs, Battlefront and even Full Spectrum Warrior were some really good games last gen. Seeing the videos for Saboteur gave me some of the Mercs 1 vibes that were gone from the sequel so its definitely on my radar.

Since you are being so candid, do you have any more info on the speculation that the PS3 version is being outsourced and isn't up to snuff?

[Sipowicz]

from what riccatello was saying, they're only going to be concentrating on their guaranteed big sellers from this forward like battlefield and madden

i'm guessing that we wont be seeing any more new ips from them, which might be a good thing for some stuff

i'm also guessing that their paltry wii/PSP/DS support will be limited to multiplatform games and shovelware. so not much worse than it is now

[Stumpokapow]

If one good thing can come out of this I just hope that other studios pay attention and focus on better quality control of their games so that they don't wind up like Factor 5 (Lair), Silicon Knights (too human), Pandemic (lotr, merc 2), and free radical (haze)

What is that list supposed to list? The outcomes for those four studios have nothing in common.

Factor 5: independent studio, released a bomb, signed at least two projects, had a publisher pull the rug out under them, other publisher possibly withheld milestone payments. Closed, sort of quasi-exists.

Silicon Knights: still in operation.

Pandemic: studio owned by major publisher, lost one original IP, lost three licenced IPs, remaining original IP products not doing so hot. Closed by publisher owner.

Free Radical: independent studio, released a bomb, lost the other signed project they had, was unable to get other projects signed. Bought by successful Publisher.

[Shaheed79]

I am really starting to hate this generation. Pandemic is one of my favorite under the radar studios. They were always ahead of their time with destruction physics and ambitious gaming worlds. All they needed was some focus and direction from a respected high level producer and they could of had a AAA multi-million seller. Saboteur may be too niche to reach that milestone but as a fan of Pandemic I am looking forward to playing it day one regardless.

We have lost more quality developers this generation than any previous generation. HD Development budgets have to contract drastically if we want our hobby to be around another decade.

[Mario]

Good luck to all those who lost their jobs :(

Another to add to the list of recent casualties with entries I think are correct from 2007 (if any are incorrect let me know)

Backbone Vancouver
BottleRocket
Castaway Entertainment
EA Chicago (EA)
Ensemble (MS)
Factor 5 US
FASA (MS)
Fizz Factor (Foundation 9 group)
Flagship Studios
FuzzyEyes - not sure on this one
Gamelab
GRiN
Humannature Studio (Nexon)
Ironlore
Locomotive Games (THQ)
Nexon Vancouver (Nexon)
Pandemic Australia (EA)
Pandemic LA (EA)
Paradigm Entertainment (THQ)
Pivotal Games
Pseudo Interactive
Red Tibe
Sandblast Games (THQ)
Shaba Games (Activision)
Stormfront Studios
Transmission Games
Vicarious Visions California (Activision)


Auran and 3D Realms I think have all been reduced to holding companies with just a skeleton crew and sales staff.

Publisher closures include Brash, Empire, Red Mile Entertainment, and Midway (the latter closed Aces Game Studio, Blacksite Studio and Midway Austin in late 2008 through early 2009).


Edit: added a couple, thanks Crazymoogle

[nec99]

5 years for me too Zeenbor.
Sad day. Just gotta kick that much more ass on the next game. :)

[Zeenbor]

Since you are being so candid, do you have any more info on the speculation that the PS3 version is being outsourced and isn't up to snuff?

Both PC and PS3 ports were outsourced and both companies did great jobs.

The PS3 version actually has better image quality than the Xbox version (anti-aliasing was done on the SPUs), but the Xbox version has more vibrant colors. There are other minor differences specific to the PS3 version, but it's pretty much on par.

[RSLAEV]

Are there any developers that have refused buyout offers from larger publishers? It seems there's an obvious pattern of developer makes a name for themselves, is sold to a larger publisher (allowing a few top management heads to rake in some bucks over the acquisition) and within a few years the studio is either a shadow of its former self or dismantled. Could Pandemic have survived w/o EA ever buying them?

[Stumpokapow]

Are there any developers that have refused buyout offers from larger publishers? It seems there's an obvious pattern of developer makes a name for themselves, is sold to a larger publisher (allowing a few top management heads to rake in some bucks over the acquisition) and within a few years the studio is either a shadow of its former self or dismantled. Could Pandemic have survived w/o EA ever buying them?

EA didn't buy Pandemic, it bought VG Holding Corp, which owned Pandemic-BioWare, who were one company.

[I AM JOHN!]

Could Pandemic have survived w/o EA ever buying them?

Maybe? It's one of those things that's hard to say. What would a Pandemic not owned by EA have done? Would they have made Battlefront III? The other Destroy All Humans! games? Run the exact same trajectory they did after the EA buyout? It's one of those things that you can't really predict, though I'd argue that if everything Zeenbor says is true about the way management ran the company, Pandemic probably lived longer by sucking on EA's milk of wonder than they would have on their own.

[SamBishop]

I was one of the affected today. Having worked at Pandemic for close to 5 years, it's a bittersweet moment. We literally just finished Saboteur and are extremely proud of the game it turned out to be, considering the amount of hardships we had during development. On the other hand, we now have no job and are forced to part our ways with people we hold dear to our hearts. I can tell you one thing. The reason why the studio closed down has everything to do with the existing Pandemic management. From what we were told, Pandemic management was given free reign to do as they please. Time and time again, they dropped the ball with bad decisions (promoting/keeping people based on loyalty, no production accountability, misallocation of resources, poor milestone objectives, no mentoring, etc.). It's a true shame, as there was a lot of talent and passion at the studio. I wouldn't necessarily hate on JR and EA's execs just yet. In my eyes, they probably made the right decision as Pandemic cost a lot to upkeep and, quite frankly, the last few products weren't up to snuff. I think many of you would be surprised how much a game like Saboteur costs to make (think ~100 people for 3 years + ~20 people for ~2 years). Add overhead cost to incompetence in management/direction and you have a pretty convincing case to cut your ties and call it a day. It probably doesn't look good for JR considering he made a cool 5 mil off of the sale of Pandemic/Bioware. One more thing I will say: EA is totally sending Saboteur out to die. And it's a fucking shame. It's easily Pandemic's best game yet. Of course, I am a bit biased having worked on the game for so long. If you were disappointed with Mercs2 and LOTR (who wasn't) and enjoyed previous Pandemic games, give Saboteur a shot. Gonna pour one out for my homies:

I wrote the manual for the game (so, uh, apologies if you saw it and it sucked), and I completely agree that it's easily the best game Pandemic has made in years and possibly in the history of the studio. I really do hope people will give the game a chance, as it's something I was hoping would be the turning point for the studio and get them back on track to put out more games of that caliber. Now that that's not gonna happen, I can only hope people will actually play it.

Best of luck with the future, man. At least you went out with a bang.

[Stoney Mason]

Are there any developers that have refused buyout offers from larger publishers? It seems there's an obvious pattern of developer makes a name for themselves, is sold to a larger publisher (allowing a few top management heads to rake in some bucks over the acquisition) and within a few years the studio is either a shadow of its former self or dismantled. Could Pandemic have survived w/o EA ever buying them?

Valve and iD are/were the classic examples.

They have almost certainly turned down buy out offers in the past (although of course id has relented now). Unless you have mega frachises though, it is almost impossible to remain independent. At least if you are doing Triple AAA franchises. It's too finacially risky a proposition for dozens of reasons.

[Johann]

How was that not considered a huge conflict of interest?

Riccitiello withheld himself from the discussion and voting on the buyout. Nevertheless, it was a very shady deal between his extremely close relationship with Elevations, his short second term at EA at the time of the deal, and the disproportionately high sum for the buyout.

Riccitiello ended up with a nice kickback and EA paid a fortune in cash and equity for half of a developer that is now dead and the other half that is just starting to make back the investment. I can't even begin to imagine the opportunity cost of the whole deal. I thought EA's Jamdat acquisition was a pretty pricey way to make progress in mobile gaming but this was a ridiculous deal at that price.


Thanks you for the update Zeenbor. Good luck in the future.

[leroy hacker]

How was that not considered a huge conflict of interest?

The man himself has already addressed that question:

http://games.venturebeat.com/2008/07...ectronic-arts/

VB: I never heard what you have said to those people who say there was too much conflict of interest for you on the BioWare/Pandemic deal, since EA was buying a company from your former firm and you made a lot of money on it. What is your answer? JR: No comment. It’s not a conflict of interest.

[Why For?]

Wow.

Suddenly this thread seems a little prophetic

The release date is wrong, but the result is the same.

Gotta agree with Turkish, this game DOES look really good from the trailers I've seen. I'll put my support behind it, unless it REALLY sucks, I'll pick it up.

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Valve and iD are/were the classic examples. They have almost certainly turned down buy out offers in the past (although of course id has relented now). Unless you have mega frachises though, it is almost impossible to remain independent. At least if you are doing Triple AAA franchises. It's too finacially risky a proposition for dozens of reasons.

And Valve has been on record to say that even they can't afford to do all the things they'd want to do.

[sflufan]

NOOOOOOO! I had so much fun with the Battlefront series! So many hours wasted on those gems! RIP Pandemic! :( I wanted my Battlefront 3 in HD. :(

Pandemic has had NOTHING to do with the Battlefront series in years. The IP passed from Pandemic to Free Radical (absorbed by Crytek) and is now supposedly in Rebellion's hands.

[bluemax]

I was one of the affected today.

Sad news dude. Although if I were you I don't know if I'd go around bad mouthing management no matter how true it is. The industry is pretty small and something like this could get back to you.

Good luck to all those who lost their jobs :( Another to add to the list of recent casualties with entries I think are correct from 2007 (if any are incorrect let me know) BottleRocket Castaway Entertainment EA Chicago (EA) Ensemble (MS) Factor 5 US FASA (MS) Fizz Factor (Foundation 9 group) Flagship Studios FuzzyEyes - not sure on this one Gamelab GRiN Humannature Studio (Nexon) Ironlore Locomotive Games (THQ) Pandemic Australia (EA) Pandemic LA (EA) Paradigm Entertainment (THQ) Pivotal Games Pseudo Interactive Red Tibe Sandblast Games (THQ) Shaba Games (Activision) Stormfront Studios Transmission Games Vicarious Visions California (Activision) Auran and 3D Realms I think have all been reduced to holding companies with just a skeleton crew and sales staff. Publisher closures include Brash, Empire, Red Mile Entertainment, and Midway (the latter closed Aces Game Studio, Blacksite Studio and Midway Austin in late 2008 through early 2009).

Yikes, and that doesn't even include things like 7 Studios losing half their staff, or Heavy Iron getting dumped by THQ and the cuts that went along with it.

[ZZMitch]

NOOO Star Wars:Battlefront NOOOO! :((((

[SapientWolf]

Sad news dude. Although if I were you I don't know if I'd go around bad mouthing management no matter how true it is. The industry is pretty small and something like this could get back to you. Yikes, and that doesn't even include things like 7 Studios losing half their staff, or Heavy Iron getting dumped by THQ and the cuts that went along with it.

And from the looks of things it is getting smaller. The last few years have been a bloodbath.

It wouldn't be the first EA team with management issues. Someone from the canceled C&C fps aired some dirty laundry on that topic.

[GillianSeed79]

It's a shame. I always thought the concept of Saboteur seemed awesome. I'll miss Pandemic as the Battlefront games and Mercs 1 were awesome.

[Zeenbor]

Although if I were you I don't know if I'd go around bad mouthing management no matter how true it is. The industry is pretty small and something like this could get back to you.

See, that's the problem with humanity. Everyone is looking out for themselves. I say fuck it. The truth needs to be told.

Philosophy aside, I'd say the circumstances warrant the truth. A lot of misconceptions are going around and EA management is being ragged for something that isn't necessarily their fault.

[FateBreaker]

I was one of the affected today. Having worked at Pandemic for close to 5 years, it's a bittersweet moment. We literally just finished Saboteur and are extremely proud of the game it turned out to be, considering the amount of hardships we had during development. On the other hand, we now have no job and are forced to part our ways with people we hold dear to our hearts. I can tell you one thing. The reason why the studio closed down has everything to do with the existing Pandemic management. From what we were told, Pandemic management was given free reign to do as they please. Time and time again, they dropped the ball with bad decisions (promoting/keeping people based on loyalty, no production accountability, misallocation of resources, poor milestone objectives, no mentoring, etc.). It's a true shame, as there was a lot of talent and passion at the studio. I wouldn't necessarily hate on JR and EA's execs just yet. In my eyes, they probably made the right decision as Pandemic cost a lot to upkeep and, quite frankly, the last few products weren't up to snuff. I think many of you would be surprised how much a game like Saboteur costs to make (think ~100 people for 3 years + ~20 people for ~2 years). Add overhead cost to incompetence in management/direction and you have a pretty convincing case to cut your ties and call it a day. It probably doesn't look good for JR considering he made a cool 5 mil off of the sale of Pandemic/Bioware. One more thing I will say: EA is totally sending Saboteur out to die. And it's a fucking shame. It's easily Pandemic's best game yet. Of course, I am a bit biased having worked on the game for so long. If you were disappointed with Mercs2 and LOTR (who wasn't) and enjoyed previous Pandemic games, give Saboteur a shot. Gonna pour one out for my homies:

I was not going to buy this game, but now I am. Sounds like there was a lot of passion in this project, and I never really experienced a Pandemic game, so this feels like a good way to see what the fuss is...was...about. It also helps that if the game still meets its Gamestop date, 12/8, that I will even be more motivated to get it--since it's my birthday. :)

Truly sorry, man. I wish you the best, and I am excited to see what you guys crafted as your final project.

[NullPointer]

See, that's the problem with humanity. Everyone is looking out for themselves. I say fuck it. The truth needs to be told.

Truest words I've read on this forum.

And here's thanks for all the good times me and my buddies have had with Pandemic games, from the old Battlefront and Full Spectrum up to Mercenaries 2. While that last one wasn't up to it's potential, you guys managed to somehow make even your glitches hilarious. Good luck on whatever you venture into next.

Cheers.

[FoneBone]

I have never been into their games, but a shame that people are losing their jobs close to the holidays. That whole Batman game situation still seems bizarre. How did EA not put their foot down and demand that something get shipped?

From what's been reported, the game had to ship by the end of 2008 lest EA pay through the nose to renew the license (which they didn't want to do), and it was simply not in a releasable state at that point.

[Jimmy Stav]

Pandemic-GAF: If you're still in or around the building by Saturday then go across the street for some free if my boss is cool with it coffee and well-wishing.

[endlessflood]

I recently played Mercenaries 2 and Red Faction: Guerrilla back to back, and I enjoyed the former a hell of a lot more. It wasn't as good as Mercs 1, but it was a lot of fun all the same. R.I.P. Pandemic.

Won't be buying Saboteur, it looks like a poor game to me. Sorry :(

[vireland]

hahaha That's what these assholes get for releasing Mercenaries 2. Justice served.

No comprende on the hate for Mercs 2. It was riddled with (generally funny) bugs, but it was a blast to play in co-op. Really fun game. Here's hoping the IP lives somewhere within EA to become Mercs 3.

[BioNut]

Next on the chopping block: EALA; Westwood's franchises are basically dead, Boom Blox can easily be transferred or given a downsized team, the other Spielberg project never really got into releasable shape. Huge cost, little money to be made. Mythic: Keep the tech guys that are useful for the Star Wars MMO, axe everyone else, close DAoC and Warhammer Online. Sorry. EA Montreal: Okay, so the "Wii exclusive content" strategy failed for you. There goes that team. Army of Two is definitely a growable regular franchise, though, so probably keep that team intact. Maybe just downsize this crew? Consider downsizing: BioWare: Many teams, all large, all working on long development cycle projects. To be fair, I'm sure every game they release in the end is profitable, but it's probably worth maybe cutting back a bit or geographically centralizing this team. Definitely safe: DICE: Tech wizards, profitable franchiseable games, games release on time and on a regular basis. Redwood Shores EA Sports You're actually right about that but I think the point still holds; it's one thing to have your Eastern Europe / Southeast Asia studio for cost savings / QA / "internal outsourcing" but actually just having teams all over the world for shits and giggles probably creates unnecessary overhead and lowers production efficiency.

I agree with most of what you say but BioWare IS EA right now. SW:TOR is EA's biggest hope to catch up with Activision/Blizzard. Dragon Age and Mass Effect will bring in a lot of money. If anything EA should give even more money to BioWare is it is their best cluster of studios.

I actually think the name should be changed to EA/BioWare and then have BioWare publish obsidian games.

[Scrow]

No comprende on the hate for Mercs 2. It was riddled with (generally funny) bugs, but it was a blast to play in co-op. Really fun game. Here's hoping the IP lives somewhere within EA to become Mercs 3.

it's all good now. justice was served indeed, once he was banned.

[Stumpokapow]

I agree with most of what you say but BioWare IS EA right now. SW:TOR is EA's biggest hope to catch up with Activision/Blizzard. Dragon Age and Mass Effect will bring in a lot of money. If anything EA should give even more money to BioWare is it is their best cluster of studios.

I think that's also a reasonable route. I just feel like BioWare right now is on a tightrope and they need to take action to either minimize the potential loss if they fall OR spread out the risk internally so that they're more balanced and less likely to fall.

I actually think the name should be changed to EA/BioWare and then have BioWare publish obsidian games.

I think any decision about any arrangement with Obsidian should wait for a while. Obsidian is in a rough patch. Alpha Protocol delayed bigtime (a year, at least, by the time it finally releases), Aliens cancelled, Fallout: New Vegas... I don't think EA should look to Obsidian right now when they have commitments to two other publishers and have a bad record recently. Still <3 Obsidian though!

[BioNut]

I think that's also a reasonable route. I just feel like BioWare right now is on a tightrope and they need to take action to either minimize the potential loss if they fall OR spread out the risk internally so that they're more balanced and less likely to fall. I think any decision about any arrangement with Obsidian should wait for a while. Obsidian is in a rough patch. Alpha Protocol delayed bigtime (a year, at least, by the time it finally releases), Aliens cancelled, Fallout: New Vegas... I don't think EA should look to Obsidian right now when they have commitments to two other publishers and have a bad record recently. Still <3 Obsidian though!

This is true, but with some BioWare tutelage (word?) Obsidian could become an amazing studio. They have already done two sequals to BioWare games and Alpha Protocol looks like a modern day spy mass effect. Sometimes a company needs some direction and advice. I doubt Obsidian is getting that from Sega.

edit: Don't know if this is a rumor or not but I have heard multiple times that SW:TOR is on a >$150 million budget and that $100 million of that came from EA. The game is simply massive and if it flops it really could kill EA/BioWare.

I don't think it will flop though, actually I think its going to be the second best selling MMO for years to come. (only behind WoW.)

[charlequin]

I think that's also a reasonable route. I just feel like BioWare right now is on a tightrope and they need to take action to either minimize the potential loss if they fall OR spread out the risk internally so that they're more balanced and less likely to fall.

I'm still not clear exactly what you propose doing here except for really vaguely "cutting down" on... something. They have a two-team studio in Alberta that is probably near the top of the list of studios who consistently deliver on-schedule, finished games that go on to sell well, and they make games that inherently take a relatively long time and large budget. I don't see any way to change that that wouldn't really come down to destructive executive meddling, and I don't see much reason to when they really have been so consistent over such a long time.

[daCuk]

Best of luck to you zeenbor and nec99.
Hope you find jobs before this year ends.

[jrricky]

Um, why does the thread title still say rumor?

[I AM JOHN!]

edit: Don't know if this is a rumor or not but I have heard multiple times that SW:TOR is on a >$150 million budget and that $100 million of that came from EA. The game is simply massive and if it flops it really could kill EA/BioWare.

Wtf. That can't be possible; that's corporate suicide!

[slasher_thrasher21]

Its always sad to see a company go, and Pandemic seemed to always have a heart for making some cool, though somewhat flawed games.

I wasn't personally going to pick up Sabetour due to the huge ammount of games being released, but seeing as this is the last Pandemic game and that it seems from what some of you guys at Pandemic have said, you feel this is your best work.

Day one guys. I wish you all the best luck in your further ventures.

[LLaMa-Tech]

Sorry Pandemic.

best of luck to you all