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Aonuma: I've been remaking Ocarina of Time for years; OoT is "not that good" today.

G

Grooveraider

Banned
Aonuma, just get on with designing the best Zelda game possible and stop acting so EMO over OoT. OoT was a pioneering piece of gaming like Mario 64 was before it. I swear people can be so EMOTIONAL and not make any damn sense :lol

Still the Greatest !
3369879288_3ff19f92bd.jpg
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
radioheadrule83 said:
Aonuma is fucking awesome.

But he doesn't go far enough.

It's ugly, it runs at a hideously unpleasant frame rate, the menu interface, combat mechanics, camera scripting and camera controls have been bettered by every subsequent Zelda. The overworld is a barren field that simply consumes your time while you go from A to B. All of the 2D Zeldas have more interesting and creative overworlds. Playing it now is simply more annoying than back in '98, when admittedly it was the most awesome-sauce thing since Zelda III.

Worst of all, OoT has landed Nintendo in the position of having to adhere to a certain style in order to appease idiot manbaby editors like those at IGN and in order to maximise success. That is a counter-creative situation they find themselves in - something they're not really saddled with when it comes to any of their other franchises.
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*high fives*
 
A

autobzooty

Member
Grooveraider said:
Aonuma, just get on with designing the best Zelda game possible and stop acting so EMO over OoT. OoT was a pioneering piece of gaming like Mario 64 was before it. I swear people can be so EMOTIONAL and not make any damn sense :lol

Still the Greatest !
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk173/Grooveraider/3369879288_3ff19f92bd.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

irony

:lol
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A

Arpharmd B

Banned
Yay another sensationalist GAF thread.

I mean here we have a perfectly normal interview, with some nice insight into the Zelda series, and he makes a remark that, under context, is perfectly rational, modest, and .

But hey if we BOLD that, take it OUT OF CONTEXT and make it the THREAD TITLE it'll get a ton of crazy people all riled up, tons of posts and big ratings!
 
M

Masked Man

I said wow
I don't think he's entirely out of line by saying that. Don't get me wrong--I love OoT, of course. But, as the OP alludes to, I think that the "FFVII effect" takes over to a certain extent. I wouldn't go so far as to say that either title is "not that good" today, but both are clearly aged and don't hold up so well from a technological standpoint. In terms of design, story, music, and whatnot, they're both still brilliant; and, looking at each game from the point in time at which each was released, they are both rather astounding.

Aonuma's statement makes me wonder, though: just what is in store for the next Zelda? He says that making something breathtaking will be rather challenging, and while I would love to hear that we're in for something incredible in terms of the next Wii game, I don't want to get my hopes up, either. =/

EDIT: Kyaaaaah~
What happened to my tag and avatar? ;__; I changed my avatar back just now, but I miss my beloved dancing Wes...
 
K

KeeSomething

Banned
eggandI said:
OoT is the only Zelda game I completely finished and I enjoyed it back then but I can't go back to it now for shit. Such horrible camera/controls. It isn't worth the wrestling with all the dated mechanics.

Needless to say, I agree. A game like OoT is nowhere near "timeless," for me. A timeless game is something I still play semi/regularly.
Click to expand...
You were "wrestling" with the controls and the "horrible" camera? How in the hell did you play through Majora's Mask or Twilight Princess? Hell, how do you play adventure games in general?

Ocarina of Time still holds up today. The fact the people have to make up flaws or blow nit-picks out of proportion just proves this.
 
R

radioheadrule83

Banned
KeeSomething said:
Ocarina of Time still holds up today. The fact the people have to make up flaws or blow nit-picks out of proportion just proves this.
Click to expand...

Asserting that other peoples observations and opinions are fabrications/lies doesn't make it so. Whether Ocarina of Time still holds up today is a matter of subjective opinion, not fact.

Its a mess in motion compared to any of the newer 3D Zeldas or even Link to the Past, its low polygon and low framerate. Is that disputable? Hyrule Field is a shitty overworld, do you have any argument to the contrary? I would say that the multi-dimensional overworld and multi-dimensional puzzles were also done better in Link to the Past and Oracle of Ages/Seasons. Anyone care to retort?

The great new things it did bring to the table (dramatic 3d visuals, cut-scenes, a 3d camera, Z-targeting) have been increasingly perfected in subsequent Zeldas. The only areas where I can concieve that it may actually hold more appeal to people than its successors are in actual story and dungeon design. And even then, I would strongly suggest nostalgia is rose-tinting the memories of both.

It was fucking awesome in 1998, I don't believe its particularly that awesome now. Its because of the retarded fanboy fervor for something like Ocarina of Time that we got Twilight Princess. Which don't get me wrong, is great. It's the most polished 3D Zelda to date. But it's not Nintendo living out their creative freedoms, which is what they're best at -- it's Nintendo trying to appease the kind of OoT fanbabies that wept and screamed at the E3 unveiling. The kind of people who wanted Link to be Legolas in a funny hat, and for Hyrule to be more like Middle Earth.

I just think its revisionist history to say that Zelda fans of the time were asking for anything else but an Ocarina of Time styled Zelda-by-numbers.

This franchise desperately needs to break free of its OoT fanboy shackles or its doomed to this kind of in-fighting and a slide into mediocrity. All IMO of course.
 
S

Sato Koiji

Member
Doesnt make sense to compare old games to todays.

Important thing is how good the game was in its time and OoT is a masterpiece.
 
P

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Sato Koiji said:
Doesnt make sense to compare old games to todays.

Important thing is how good the game was in its time and OoT is a masterpiece.
Click to expand...

This is the kind of drek that makes me happy that I live in the present and can freely judge games on whether or not they're still worthwhile today.
 
C

Cerebral Assassin

Member
radioheadrule83 said:
It was fucking awesome in 1998, I don't believe its particularly that awesome now. Its because of the retarded fanboy fervor for something like Ocarina of Time that we got Twilight Princess.
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More the reaction that WW got (critically& sales wise) I would wager.
Also :lol @ people complaining about OoT overworld while praising LttP's as although there was more to do in Lttp it was just as full of dead space and took longer to traverse.
 
G

GillianSeed79

Member
Maybe because I was in high school went it first came out or the fact I didn't pick up an N64 until GoldeEye, but I never really liked OoT or SM64 for that matter.

Ironically, I really enjoyed TP and SMG.

It's weird. I've beaten LoZ 1, LoZ II Adventures of Link and ALLTp, but have never finished OoT. I've never even played MM or WW.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
lol what a shitty title :lol

However, I think the most important quote of the entire interview has to be:

"but to best Ocarina of Time, a great change –comparable to what happened back then- must be introduced."

This is the reason why OOT is (just about the) the greatest game of all time, and why it's going to be damn near impossible to ever be topped.

Of course, we're ignoring the superior Majora's Mask :D
 
W

Wizpig

Member
Scrow said:
these comments by aonuma make me worry that he doesn't actually understand why OOT was/is so good.
Click to expand...
I thought the same thing, but the fault here is OP's.

The way the whole thread is put, it's like saying "guys, Aonuma is telling us to remove our nostalgia goggles"; but the interview says different things, and he's a lot more modest.
 
R

RiskyChris

Banned
Grooveraider said:
Aonuma, just get on with designing the best Zelda game possible and stop acting so EMO over OoT. OoT was a pioneering piece of gaming like Mario 64 was before it. I swear people can be so EMOTIONAL and not make any damn sense :lol

Still the Greatest !
3369879288_3ff19f92bd.jpg
Click to expand...

So cool, I have a set of four of those Yoshis!
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
radioheadrule83 said:
It was fucking awesome in 1998, I don't believe its particularly that awesome now. Its because of the retarded fanboy fervor for something like Ocarina of Time that we got Twilight Princess. Which don't get me wrong, is great. It's the most polished 3D Zelda to date. But it's not Nintendo living out their creative freedoms, which is what they're best at -- it's Nintendo trying to appease the kind of OoT fanbabies that wept and screamed at the E3 unveiling. The kind of people who wanted Link to be Legolas in a funny hat, and for Hyrule to be more like Middle Earth.

I just think its revisionist history to say that Zelda fans of the time were asking for anything else but an Ocarina of Time styled Zelda-by-numbers.

This franchise desperately needs to break free of its OoT fanboy shackles or its doomed to this kind of in-fighting and a slide into mediocrity. All IMO of course.
Click to expand...

Sorry, man, but you're being unimaginably dense here.

I've said it before, I don't have a problem with anyone preferring one game over another. What I DO have a problem with is this extremely vexing inability to grasp simple concepts.

WHY ON EARTH WOULD ANYONE, ESPECIALLY A BUSINESS WANT TO MAKE A SEQUEL TO THEIR BEST SELLING AND HIGHEST RATED GAME? IT MAKES NO SENESE!!!!!!

I'm sorry you don't like OoT. I can see where you're coming from, afterall, if you don't like a game, it can frustrating to see a company try to go down in that direction. At the same time, however, I live in this little world called REALITY and I can understand WHY they do what they do (it doesn't always make sense, but still). Nobody - and to reiterate- NOBODY at Nintendo is thinking, "GEE, YOU KNOW WHAT GUYS, I THINK IT'S FINALLY TIME TO COME UP WITH A GAME THAT SURPASSES ZELDA 2 AND/OR WIND WAKER"

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to emulate and live up to a previously successful game. Super Mario Galaxy tried to emulate Mario 64, and it turned out to be the most fucking awesome game of the generation. Super Mario Bros. 3, World, Super Metroid, LttP, all of these are among other games that Nintendo looks to surpass, is it wrong for them to try and do that? BU BU BUT THE SHACKLES!

And finally, I've said this a thousand times before, but you seem to have missed it each time, or are willfully ignoring it, but OoT didn't make the Zelda series any more LotR-like than previous Zeldas (including LttP) did. You seem to be living in your own world.
 
C

cartman414

Member
Cerebral Assassin said:
More the reaction that WW got (critically& sales wise) I would wager.
Also :lol @ people complaining about OoT overworld while praising LttP's as although there was more to do in Lttp it was just as full of dead space and took longer to traverse.
Click to expand...

LttP, if anything, had too much clutter in the form of tree clusters and whatnot. And yet OoT still took more time to traverse by virtue of being 3d and for the lack of an item on par with the Pegasus Boots.

upandaway said:
That's not cool.
Click to expand...

Is too.
 
C

Cerebral Assassin

Member
cartman414 said:
LttP, if anything, had too much clutter in the form of tree clusters and whatnot. And yet OoT still took more time to traverse by virtue of being 3d and for the lack of an item on par with the Pegasus Boots.
Click to expand...


Epona?
 
E

Epic Tier 3 Engineer

Banned
radioheadrule83 said:
Asserting that other peoples observations and opinions are fabrications/lies doesn't make it so. Whether Ocarina of Time still holds up today is a matter of subjective opinion, not fact.

Its a mess in motion compared to any of the newer 3D Zeldas or even Link to the Past, its low polygon and low framerate. Is that disputable? Hyrule Field is a shitty overworld, do you have any argument to the contrary? I would say that the multi-dimensional overworld and multi-dimensional puzzles were also done better in Link to the Past and Oracle of Ages/Seasons. Anyone care to retort?

The great new things it did bring to the table (dramatic 3d visuals, cut-scenes, a 3d camera, Z-targeting) have been increasingly perfected in subsequent Zeldas. The only areas where I can concieve that it may actually hold more appeal to people than its successors are in actual story and dungeon design. And even then, I would strongly suggest nostalgia is rose-tinting the memories of both.

It was fucking awesome in 1998, I don't believe its particularly that awesome now. Its because of the retarded fanboy fervor for something like Ocarina of Time that we got Twilight Princess. Which don't get me wrong, is great. It's the most polished 3D Zelda to date. But it's not Nintendo living out their creative freedoms, which is what they're best at -- it's Nintendo trying to appease the kind of OoT fanbabies that wept and screamed at the E3 unveiling. The kind of people who wanted Link to be Legolas in a funny hat, and for Hyrule to be more like Middle Earth.

I just think its revisionist history to say that Zelda fans of the time were asking for anything else but an Ocarina of Time styled Zelda-by-numbers.

This franchise desperately needs to break free of its OoT fanboy shackles or its doomed to this kind of in-fighting and a slide into mediocrity. All IMO of course.
Click to expand...
The music, characters, locations, and puzzles are all timeless and, I believe, still the pinnacle of the series, at least creatively. I would know, I played it on the VC awhile back. Sure the overworld is a bit barren, but it's small enough that I don't care. The gameplay is dated, but everything works. The puzzles are as great today as they were in 98.

To say that the Zelda franchise is anywhere near mediocrity is absurd. Every Zelda game, though it follows a similar formula, is a finely crafted epic that always throws something new at you. It's not just a change of setting, and we get maybe two in a console cycle (forgetting the portable entries for a minute). The games are always critically praised.

You know, it's funny how nostalgia works. Wind Waker was praised by critics, panned by fans-- don't even suggest that it wasn't trashed. Now, it's looked back as such a great and daring game, when it was clearly the weakest from a content standpoint of all the mainline Zelda games, except maybe Majora's Mask (which I loved!). The same thing can't happen with Twilight Princess, though, because it didn't have anything that made it unique, other than being the absolute apex of the OoT Zelda formula, to many the greatest game ever.

...which is exactly what everyone wanted after Wind Waker.
 
C

cartman414

Member
Cerebral Assassin said:
Epona?
Click to expand...

You can only ride her on the overworld, and outside civilian life only.

Epic Tier 3 Engineer said:
The music, characters, locations, and puzzles are all timeless and, I believe, still the pinnacle of the series, at least creatively. I would know, I played it on the VC awhile back. Sure the overworld is a bit barren, but it's small enough that I don't care. The gameplay is dated, but everything works. The puzzles are as great today as they were in 98.
Click to expand...

Except there are many puzzles that are simply 3d Expy versions of traditional puzzles, and that often take more time, especially block puzzles.

The Water Temple is especially time consuming, owing to the dreaded drag coefficient.
 
V

Version 3.0

Member
Cerebral Assassin said:
More the reaction that WW got (critically& sales wise) I would wager.
Also :lol @ people complaining about OoT overworld while praising LttP's as although there was more to do in Lttp it was just as full of dead space and took longer to traverse.
Click to expand...

Critical reaction to Wind Waker was very good, it won several Game of the Year awards, if I recall. And it sold just fine, it was just shy of 4 million in May 2005.

The negative reaction to Wind Waker was mostly due to the art style, which I can get behind. I adore cel-shading and think it's perfect for Zelda, but the super-deformed "big head" character style is awful. I'd love to see them go with cel-shading again, but with the better approach, taking inspiration from the great game manual art they've had over the years.
 
W

wRATH2x

Banned
I still play Ocarina of Time regularly, it is and always will be my favorite game and easily the best IMO. My little 7 year old brother played it for the first time 2 months ago and he's freaking and loving and keeps playing it, he can't stop and he's smiling all the way.

I play the game every year, it is pretty timeless. And I don't understand how it can be unplayable? I can play through the overworld, the dungeons and the whole game without any problem.

Anyway I like what Aonuma's getting at. Instead of using the OOT formula again, they try to improve, enhance, change and overall make a newer, and hopefully better game. This is the only way they can top OOT the way I see it, and since I fucking love me some OOT, I fucking want that to happen.

Well, I'm fucking excited.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
radioheadrule83 said:
The only areas where I can concieve that it may actually hold more appeal to people than its successors are in actual story and dungeon design. And even then, I would strongly suggest nostalgia is rose-tinting the memories of both.
Click to expand...

Oh, and pro tip: If you're going to use the nostalgia argument, you can't use games older than the ones you're assailing to bolster your point.
 
Z

zigg

Member
Oblivion said:
Super Mario Galaxy tried to emulate Mario 64
Click to expand...

No, it didn't.

While it maintained a similar structure (collect stars), its level design—largely camera-free, less retreading of the same ground (hub world excepted), more deaths and less trudging around back to the start after a failed attempt at something, a focus much more strongly on tight obstacle-course gameplay instead of exploring huge worlds—it threw away a lot and ended up being a dramatically better experience for it.

Oblivion said:
and it turned out to be the most fucking awesome game of the generation.
Click to expand...

This I have no quarrel with. None whatsoever.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Dragona Akehi said:
I see Oblivion is finally having his long-awaited meltdown.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Eh, there's no reason for me to have one. :lol

Though it IS agitating to see people cheering for things that are occurring only in their minds.


zigg said:
No, it didn't.

While it maintained a similar structure (collect stars), its level design—largely camera-free, less retreading of the same ground (hub world excepted), more deaths and less trudging around back to the start after a failed attempt at something, a focus much more strongly on tight obstacle-course gameplay instead of exploring huge worlds—it threw away a lot and ended up being a dramatically better experience for it.
Click to expand...

Yeah.....no.

Those things you mentioned were definitely in the game, but I don't think any of them were significant enough that a person could think that the game still didn't try and end up emulating Mario 64.
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
I dunno if this is news, but Kotaku says they have an Aonuma interview

The next Zelda won't be too easy for veteran players, the longtime head of the series' development at Nintendo, Eiji Aonuma, recently told Kotaku. Plus, the new DS adventure will cater to Nintendo fan's research-proven taste for independent women.

In a brief e-mail interview with Kotaku in advance of the release of next month's The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, Aonuma explained that Link's latest adventure takes an unusual route to satisfying and challenging veteran gamers:

"One of our lead planners for the game is a programmer, so he has a different, more scientific or mathematical approach, so to say, to creating puzzles," he wrote to Kotaku. Aonuma is the producer on Spirit Tracks.

"Development team members, including [senior Nintendo developer] Mr. [Takashi] Tezuka and myself, actually got stuck in several places. So the dungeons and puzzles pose a different type of challenge than what we have utilized in previous games, and will certainly require longtime Zelda fans to approach each challenge differently. "

Getting more specific, he noted: "I believe that the latter half of the Tower of Spirits dungeon in The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks — [which] players will revisit throughout the game — has puzzles which require a different type of approach from those of previous games,"

The chief architect of most of the major Zelda games, Aonuma has talked with your Kotaku deputy editor before about how to balance the creation of a new Zelda game to satisfy veteran fans and newcomers.

A couple of years ago, I suggested that his team consider giving the player their boomerang and bow-and-arrow from the get-go. that might be a way to make new Zeldas more alluring to veteran series gamers.
Click to expand...

The rest is Aonuma talking about how the control system for Spirit Tracks is improved, stuff about Zelda the character and an effort to make her a stronger princess, and that Niko is the same Niko from the previous games.
 
S

shadowsdarknes

Member
the next real zelda already came out, it was called Majoras Mask. Keep reinventing the wheel with core game play concepts, keep the rest the same.
 
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