[Koyuga]

Speaking of hair, mine has become far too long again* and summer's coming up. I'm debating whether to take it back to my shoulders or get something more radical done. Transgaf, what do you think? *Please ignore horrible nightie in photo. It's so old and gross. Ugh.

Rather than cut, would you like to trade? 'w' Your hair is awesome.

[shidoshi]

Well, I think it looks good long, and I'm a little jealous that you have hair that is easier to have long like that.

For me personally, it's kind of funny. Back in January I got my hair cut, and was being a little ambiguous in what I was wanting, which resulted in my hair ending up far shorter than I wanted it to be. I kind of freaked out about it, but then a day or two later had come to realize that I loved the look that I had going on.

Being that I'm still pretty new to having long hair, it's definitely a learning experience. At first I was all "my hair has to be long and nothing else," but now I've come to understand that style > length. (Though I do still love the idea of having long hair.)

[alysonwheel]

Yeah, I'm thinking overall I'll keep most of the length and just get it layered. Too much hair in the summer can be nasty!

Thanks all :)

[Dariee]

The curls at the end suit you pretty well. Whatever you do, make sure the endings are as curly as they are right now!

[alysonwheel]

The curls at the end suit you pretty well. Whatever you do, make sure the endings are as curly as they are right now!

That just sort of happens without my influence :)

[Hop]

I would like it stated for the record that Shidoshi totally kicked my butt at panel-ing. That is all.

[shidoshi]

I would like it stated for the record that Shidoshi totally kicked my butt at panel-ing. That is all.

I feel really, really bad about how small the turnout for your panel was. I think being one of the first panels on the first day of the show had to hurt attendance, as everybody was basking in the glow of the show opening.

Wow though—the turnout for our panel (transgender characters in gaming) was crazy. I was totally blown away not only by how many people showed up to our panel, but how into the conversation they seemed to be. The hour went by way too quick, and we ended up having to either gloss over or completely skip some of the topics.

We got both audio and video recording of the panel, so I'll let everybody know when it's up somewhere for checking out.

[InfiniteNine]

I feel really, really bad about how small the turnout for your panel was. I think being one of the first panels on the first day of the show had to hurt attendance, as everybody was basking in the glow of the show opening. Wow though—the turnout for our panel (transgender characters in gaming) was crazy. I was totally blown away not only by how many people showed up to our panel, but how into the conversation they seemed to be. The hour went by way too quick, and we ended up having to either gloss over or completely skip some of the topics. We got both audio and video recording of the panel, so I'll let everybody know when it's up somewhere for checking out.

Hurrah! Looking forward to it and sorry I couldn't be your stage mascot, huhu~!

[Hop]

I feel really, really bad about how small the turnout for your panel was. I think being one of the first panels on the first day of the show had to hurt attendance, as everybody was basking in the glow of the show opening. Wow though—the turnout for our panel (transgender characters in gaming) was crazy. I was totally blown away not only by how many people showed up to our panel, but how into the conversation they seemed to be. The hour went by way too quick, and we ended up having to either gloss over or completely skip some of the topics. We got both audio and video recording of the panel, so I'll let everybody know when it's up somewhere for checking out.

Didn't help that the description was a bit vague, and we were way away from anything interesting.

But really, I'm glad you had more attendance, comparatively this sorta thing actually matters. And it makes me want to try to work on my RPG world again, since I've been planning to have an FtM ninja character in the cast. Seems there's a slot for a solidly FtM character, and I think I can work the trans part into the whole cast's character development so it actually fits rather than feeling shoehorned in...

[alysonwheel]

We got both audio and video recording of the panel, so I'll let everybody know when it's up somewhere for checking out.

Looking forward to seeing this :)

[Dariee]

Dear GAFfers,

Let me excuse myself in advance if this is an inappropriate question (and if so, do let me know!), but how is a binary gender-system being perceived here?

For instance, take a link like this one: http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/...trans-friendl/ . Although it could be any random other one, for that matter. Point being, the whole idea there is that a trans*-identity automatically opposes society's tendency of thinking in dichotomous genders (and I have to say, that's how I feel about gender and sex(uality) issues myself as well).

So basically the argument often is that a trans*-identity *proves* there is more to it than thinking in binary male/female. But I can imagine there might also be trans*-individuals that don't think there is 'need for more', as they tend to identify themselves within the dichotomous gendersystem anyway. After all, as much as (for instance) a cis woman might do so, the same could be done by a trans woman, right? (Disclaimer: obviously, both are as much of a woman as the other, but 'dividing' terms are used to make clear what I mean to ask). Both can identify as woman and might not need or want room for more 'queer' or androgynous terms, as that doesn't apply to them to their feelings.

In that sense, it could be perceived that 'using the trans*-argument' could be seen like 'kidnapping' these identities when proposing a broughter gender perspective, while maybe not all (or even not many at all) trans*-individuals agree with that sort of argument. So how, to your experiences or maybe your own beliefs, is that an issue (or maybe isn't)? Cause that's what I'm being curious about: am I 'misusing' trans*-identities when I use these as an example (among others) when proposing a broader gender-perspective? Like, how do you GAFfers think/feel about that?

Of course I shouldn't step on the trap of approaching the posters in this topic as a homogenous group, so let me state that I see comments on this question - if it's not a rude one; let me know if it is! - as individual replies. Again, I have to say that I'm sorry if I use inappropriate language, as I'm not well known with how everyone feels here.

Just a question out of mere curiosity, but would be great if it were answered. And this topic seems like the right place, in that case. Looking forward to any replies, as I hope to learn from them!

Best and thank you in advance,

Dariee

(P.S. By using 'trans*' as a reference I try to include as many identities as possible without excluding any, so hope that makes my question more clear while using as appropriate language/discourse as possible).

[fireside]

I’m honestly not sure what you’re asking.

But, having made the same mistake in the past, and feeling guilty about it, I feel the need to say that you should put a space between trans or cis and man or woman, e.g. trans woman instead of transwoman.

[Dariee]

I’m honestly not sure what you’re asking. But, having made the same mistake in the past, and feeling guilty about it, I feel the need to say that you should put a space between trans or cis and man or woman, e.g. trans woman instead of transwoman.

Done, thank you for letting me know. If I may ask, why is language in this form preferred (what's the thought behind the spaces)?


Oh, and what I initially was asking: for as far as my knowledge goes (and this is limited, hence the question!) non-binary gender-identities oppose the whole dichotomous 'male vs. female' way of thinking. To me, that includes many (maybe all) trans*-identities as well. But that's only an assumption - and it's subjective - , so therefore I'm asking whether I'm right or wrong.

For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment.

Maybe the anwers to my questions differs per trans*-identity, for there are many. Or maybe the difference in answer (if there is) is based on individual experience. Whatever it might be, I'm curious to learn.

[alysonwheel]

Done, thank you for letting me know. If I may ask, why is language in this form preferred (what's the thought behind the spaces)?

I believe it arose because many people got into the habit of talking about "women and transwomen" as if they are two different things. The space is supposed to emphasise that trans is the adjective to woman's noun, such that a trans woman is not distinct from woman the way a transwoman is. If that makes sense. I am sleepy.

edit: think of it like sexuality. We don't say gaywoman and straightwoman.

For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment.

Yeah. I don't really think of myself as having a transgender identity: I'm a trans woman but I'm basically just a boring woman with no real kind of non-binary identity. That's not to say there aren't a bunch of people who really are transgender, but not me :)

[Jamie xxoo]

I think the binary system is fine, maybe add androgynous for someone who feels they are neither.

Edit: As a trans person I always felt my thoughts, feelings and perceptions were female and my body was male, until I aligned my body with my thoughts. Now instead of having a brain on one side of the binary and a body on the other, both are on the same side. I did not feel like a third gender when my brain and body were in different gender camps. The parts of my body that aren't aligned (not having a womb, chromosomes), I feel are gender binary defects, rather than things that give me a third gender identity.

[Platy]

For me a Transexual women/men is exactly a women/men.

But this is not in favor of binary because there is LOTS of non binary transgender people. Fluidy people, people who are at 0.5 and 0.7 ..... people who are neither, people who are both

[lexi]

For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment. Maybe the anwers to my questions differs per trans*-identity, for there are many. Or maybe the difference in answer (if there is) is based on individual experience. Whatever it might be, I'm curious to learn.

In my experience I've found the only thing unifying the trans* community is just how diverse it is. You'll rarely ever see somebody with the same story as somebody else.

Most of the trans people I know go about in a binary kinda way, however I've known lots of non-binary trans people, however I just can't seem to wrap my head around it, I want to be able to identify people as either male or female. This is just me and the way I feel about it, though. The binary is strong in me.

[Femmeworth]

"Male" and "female" designate sex, not gender. *twitches* Anyway, I don't view gender as something that is strictly black and white. Like sexuality, it's a continuum.

[Jamie xxoo]

Zuh? I thought male and female were genders.

[Hop]

Zuh? I thought male and female were genders.

Yea, I've used "man" and "woman" as the sexes and "male" and "female" as the genders.


....So as lexi said, the trans community has near-cartoon levels of continuity and consistency.

[Jamie xxoo]

Well to be honest I'm not really in a trans community, I just post on a message board. My real life trans friends who I've met in person total to... 1, and she lives in a different state, and I haven't seen her in two years, and we've only met once, when we were both having surgeries at the same time. So, no wonder I'm not up to speed on any set of label conventions. I suspect I'm not the only trans poster here in this situation.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Well to be honest I'm not really in a trans community, I just post on a message board. My real life trans friends who I've met in person total to... 1, and she lives in a different state, and I haven't seen her in two years, and we've only met once, when we were both having surgeries at the same time. So, no wonder I'm not up to speed on any set of label conventions. I suspect I'm not the only trans poster here in this situation.

*shrug* It's not really a big deal. What you're doing for yourself is much more important than remembering labels. I wouldn't really worry about it.

[fireside]

Oh, and what I initially was asking: for as far as my knowledge goes (and this is limited, hence the question!) non-binary gender-identities oppose the whole dichotomous 'male vs. female' way of thinking. To me, that includes many (maybe all) trans*-identities as well. But that's only an assumption - and it's subjective - , so therefore I'm asking whether I'm right or wrong. For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment. Maybe the anwers to my questions differs per trans*-identity, for there are many. Or maybe the difference in answer (if there is) is based on individual experience. Whatever it might be, I'm curious to learn.

I don’t like pegging people into holes, so I suppose I don’t agree with the “gender binary”. I think man and woman are gender identities, but I don’t think they’re the only ones, or that man and woman are normal and anyone who falls outside those two choices isn’t.

[Femmeworth]

Well, I try to view everything from a scientific perspective, so that affects my view on things. "Male" and "female" can designate gender, but I don't think they should be used that way, particularly by trans people.

Yea, I've used "man" and "woman" as the sexes and "male" and "female" as the genders.

Huh, what country are you from? I forget that differing countries and languages will complicate this discussion.

*shrug* It's not really a big deal. What you're doing for yourself is much more important than remembering labels. I wouldn't really worry about it.

That's like saying a black person shouldn't care about race! /not quite serious

[Hop]

Huh, what country are you from? I forget that differing countries and languages will complicate this discussion.

USA. But I'm not gonna even sit here and pretend that's consistent among all American trans folk, that's just what I use since it's what makes the most sense to me (a man is a type of person, that usually acts male, for example).

[Femmeworth]

USA. But I'm not gonna even sit here and pretend that's consistent among all American trans folk, that's just what I use since it's what makes the most sense to me (a man is a type of person, that usually acts male, for example).

Oh, that's right. I was mixing you up with another TransGAFer.

[EatChildren]

Feminist/equality movements generally argue for the use of man/woman when describing associated sex of a person, while male/female are reserved for specific gender definition.

[Femmeworth]

Feminist/equality movements generally argue for the use of man/woman when describing associated sex of a person, while male/female are reserved for specific gender definition.

See that doesn't make sense to me.

[EatChildren]

See that doesn't make sense to me.

It stems from the complexity of sexual and gender identity versus scientific definition of biological makeup, the former being several shades of grey and the latter relatively black and white. We can ascribe male/female descriptors based on chromosomes and their associated physically matured attributes, but gender identity is completely different, more complex, and not often alligned with chromosome makeup.

You can be born 'male' by all scientific definition, but associate your gender with that of a female, vice versa, or anywhere in between. Equality movements strive to seperate the two lables so we still have a known scientific definition, but one that doesn't apply blanket generalisations to the complexity of the human psyche.

The same applies to sexuality. Gay/straight/bi themselves are arguably too binary. Just as with gender identity, sexual identity is equally complex and varied between person to person.

[InfiniteNine]

I'm so confused right now.

[Femmeworth]

It stems from the complexity of sexual and gender identity versus scientific definition of biological makeup, the former being several shades of grey and the latter relatively black and white. We can ascribe male/female descriptors based on chromosomes and their associated physically matured attributes, but gender identity is completely different, more complex, and not often alligned with chromosome makeup. You can be born 'male' by all scientific definition, but associate your gender with that of a female, vice versa, or anywhere in between. Equality movements strive to seperate the two lables so we still have a known scientific definition, but one that doesn't apply blanket generalisations to the complexity of the human psyche. The same applies to sexuality. Gay/straight/bi themselves are arguably too binary. Just as with gender identity, sexual identity is equally complex and varied between person to person.

I think you got that mixed up. I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, though.

[EatChildren]

I think you got that mixed up.

Maybe confusing wording, but no, not really. You are either born male/female, based on chromosones, but there is no known method for defining a person's gender or sexual identity at birth. A trans person will still be born with the associated male/female chromosones (as traditionally defined).

The problem is the application of gender and sexual identity to this definition. Traditionally we assume person born as a male will have the gender identity of a male, as well as the sexual identity of a straight male. The arguments for equality say this is (obviously) untrue. The two descriptors are seperate and one is not necessarily an indicator of the others, or how the others will develop.

So, when we say "THIS PERSON IS A FEMALE" we tend to lump a whole bunch of shit under that descriptor due to social stigmas and archaic behavior lables history has groomed us to believe.

It's a rabbit hole of psychology and science that, as far as I'm aware, we still don't fully understand. But yeah. The argument is that when Mumma EatChildren pushes EatChildren out, doctors still have scientific definition to say "this person was born male/female", but ideally we wouldn't ascribe personal gender or sexual identity to this definition. I might be born male/female, but my personal gender and sexual identity is (at this point) an unknown.

EDIT: Actually yeah, maybe I did get them the wrong way around.

[Dariee]

Wow, thanks a lot for the many replies! Hope I didn't offend anyone with such an 'experience' based question, as I'm just eager to learn.


@ Femmeworth

Thought about that later as well. Maybe I went a step ahead with using gender and sex interchangably (i.e. to me, both being in a way a construct). Should have known better, I'm sorry.


@ langauge discussion in general

EuroGAF here and didn't know about the difference between man/male or woman/female as I thought that 'masuciline' and 'feminine' were to describe gender identities. So if I understand things correctly now, man/woman refers to sex and male/female to gender, right?

[EatChildren]

As Femmeworth said I got it the wrong way around. Male/Female describe genetic sex, whereas Man/Woman should describe gender identity.

[alysonwheel]

As Femmeworth said I got it the wrong way around. Male/Female describe genetic sex, whereas Man/Woman should describe gender identity.

This, plus masculine/feminine to describe gender presentation (i.e. you can be a man and be feminine, or be a woman and be masculine).

[Jamie xxoo]

@ langauge discussion in general EuroGAF here and didn't know about the difference between man/male or woman/female as I thought that 'masuciline' and 'feminine' were to describe gender identities. So if I understand things correctly now, man/woman refers to sex and male/female to gender, right?

I so disagree with that, not based on anything I've read, it just sounds wrong. Could swear it should be the other way around. Like if you are FTM transsexual you would be arguably female in terms of chromosomes but you'd be a man based on outward appearance. That seems to make more sense doesn't it?

Edit: Assuming the FTM here has transitioned, taken testosterone, had breast removal etc)
Edit 2: Oh that's what the others are saying now.

[Dariee]

Got it now :)

Oh, and lol at my own miswriting as 'masuciline' when I meant 'masculine'.

[EatChildren]

This, plus masculine/feminine to describe gender presentation (i.e. you can be a man and be feminine, or be a woman and be masculine).

An interesting thought experiment is to think about how we'd develop as people in a society where a person is born with only genetic sex descriptors, and is otherwise legitimately considered by parents and society as a whole as a 'blank slate' of gender and sexual identity, with the various shades of grey composing each and the multitude of personality combinations all considered equally valid and accepted. That a parent and society would consider the possibility of their genetically male child growing up to associate with a female gender identity, and also bi-curious, no less or more likely than them growing up straight and masculine.

Would a total absence of gender precedent and absolute acceptance of any gender/sexuality identity combination change a 'trans persons' manner of body perception?

[Jamie xxoo]

Nope. Not for me.

[alysonwheel]

Would a total absence of gender precedent and absolute acceptance of any gender/sexuality identity combination change a 'trans persons' manner of body perception?

That feels like kind of the wrong question? I know of many trans people who aren't particularly bothered by their genitals and many trans people who aren't bothered about passing; it may be that in the world you describe these people wouldn't transition -- at least, not the way we do now -- but would express their gender without any kind of medical intervention. I'm sort of assuming your world has slightly better health science than ours, too, since in our world I'm not sure how sustainable a non-op hormone dose is long-term, and many trans people who otherwise would not have bothered with genital surgery get it done for that reason; others because their country won't let them change their birth certificate without it.

Similarly, I can be pretty sure I would still have medically transitioned even in a blank-slate world where social transition is unnecessary. I was extremely unhappy with my body from a very early age, and I don't believe that would have changed in your world.

So I guess by the wrong question I mean it's not that trans people's body perception would change, but that body perception varies within trans populations already, and a different society would lead to different outcomes for some.

[EatChildren]

That's why it's a thought experiment :P. No right or wrong answers, but clarification and insight.

[alysonwheel]

Yeah, it's interesting to think about. Yes, I think I would have transitioned, but I often wonder if my level of femininity today (I am a class 5, or "giggling mess") has been influenced by the insecurities of transition. As in, some trans women go more feminine than feels natural to them because they're worried about not passing if they don't; I went in the other direction, as during and after transition I didn't want to appear "fake" and I'd internalised a lot of the patriarchal bullshit about feminine identities being somehow inauthentic, mannered, and put-on. I dismantled this as I got older, and I'm pretty much myself now, with no filters, but would I be more feminine now if I'd never done that? Would I be more or less feminine now if I hadn't had to hide behind a stone man until I was twenty?

Dunno :)

[Wired]

Hello there. I'm new here (as if it weren't obvious enough haha). I've recently come out to a couple friends about being a girl trapped in a boys body, and they've all stopped talking to me, so I'd just like a place to come to if I want to talk about it. I'm not as far as half of you girls out there, but I'm slowly working my way there. This took a lot for me to even type this, I'm not sure why. I know I won't be treated like I'm some kind of freak, but I guess that's what I get for being a nervous wreck. Anyway, I hope to feel welcome here, and I hope to hear from some of you sometime soon. Have a good evening everyone!

Just started reading through the tread for some reason and happened to read this. And well that's just awful, just remember that it's not you it's them damn it. People can be such assholes sometimes and I just don't understand it. You're the same person now as you were before you told them, just can't wrap my head around why it would change anything... Gah, sorry it's just that stuff like this makes me angry :P

[thatbox]

This book covers a lot of the language and continuum stuff very well, if anyone is interested in further reading.

[iirate]

This book covers a lot of the language and continuum stuff very well, if anyone is interested in further reading.

I just finished this a couple of months ago, and would also recommend it.

[Jamie xxoo]

Is it written from a gender-is-political/societal angle?

[alysonwheel]

It's written from a "gender roles are societal, gender identity is not" angle :)

It's good.

[Jamie xxoo]

Hmm well that doesn't sound too annoying, I'll stop actively avoiding it.

I bought 3 inch heels today because screw short men, and actually screw men in general I'm fed up with them.

[tearsofash]

I finished pledging for a queer and allied fraternity last weekend. It's mostly gay guys, but there are a few trans men in the group. Even though it's male only, I'm glad they recognize anyone who identifies as male.

It gets kinda interesting hanging around a group of mostly of gay males doing a lot of drag for particular events, though. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I do like transvestism (it scratches that itch as a pretransition trans woman). I don't like how it over sexualizes women and is all "showy." I know the point is usually for entertainment, but I find it odd how much drag goes on. Maybe it's just the group.

I am glad that nationals said that should I choose to transition later on, that I'd still be considered a brother. I... Just hope they can take it seriously and not treat me like I'm trying to do drag or something.

Sorry for the tiny rant. I haven't posted in a while, and that I should share something once in a while.

[Spiffy_1st]

Hmm well that doesn't sound too annoying, I'll stop actively avoiding it. I bought 3 inch heels today because screw short men, and actually screw men in general I'm fed up with them.

Reading this thread can get so confusing.