anyone else watching Question Time?
it's pretty good this week. watch it on the iplayer if you missed it.
In an NBA thread, I think.Originally Posted by Souldriver
Where exactly does this avatar meme come from btw?
I love the Huhne image. :lolOriginally Posted by dr_octagon
to celebrate the thread and new politics -
It's annoying the hell out of me tonight, I'm actually agreeing with Heseltine and this Melanie Phillips bint is a complete shit.anyone else watching Question Time?
I think I have got the hang of how this 55% majority to bring down the government thing works.
What we were thinking (and some journalists as well) was that it was an attempt to change the rules of voting on confidence motions - so that a majority of 55% rather than 50%+1 would be needed in a confidence motion. And nobody understood how that could work, because Parliament could just undo the rule and then revote.
Essential background: the way confidence votes work is that it is a convention that if the PM loses one he asks the Queen to dissolve Parliament and the Queen acts on his advice.
What seems to be proposed is this:
1) the PM loses the right to advise the Queen to dissolve Parliament (so that he can't pick the time of elections)
2) because of that, the old confidence motion approach couldn't work anyway, because if the PM lost one he couldn't advise the Queen etc etc
3) Parliament - well, the House of Commons - gets a NEW power to advise the Queen to dissolve itself (so the power is Parliament's rather than the PM's). Because it is a new power, it can have whatever rules Parliament decides it can have.
4) It's 55% so that (a) the Tories can't cut and run to the country (b) neither can the LibDems (c) neither can the LibDems in conjunction with all the other parties together. Which pretty well ensures a fixed term Parliament unless there are rebel Tories or broad consensus, which is what the policy objective is.
5) the Commons can't just change the rule and re-vote because this will be an Act of Parliament rather than the old Commons convention, so changes will need approval from the Lords - and by the time they have that the fuss will have died down.
What we were thinking (and some journalists as well) was that it was an attempt to change the rules of voting on confidence motions - so that a majority of 55% rather than 50%+1 would be needed in a confidence motion. And nobody understood how that could work, because Parliament could just undo the rule and then revote.
Essential background: the way confidence votes work is that it is a convention that if the PM loses one he asks the Queen to dissolve Parliament and the Queen acts on his advice.
What seems to be proposed is this:
1) the PM loses the right to advise the Queen to dissolve Parliament (so that he can't pick the time of elections)
2) because of that, the old confidence motion approach couldn't work anyway, because if the PM lost one he couldn't advise the Queen etc etc
3) Parliament - well, the House of Commons - gets a NEW power to advise the Queen to dissolve itself (so the power is Parliament's rather than the PM's). Because it is a new power, it can have whatever rules Parliament decides it can have.
4) It's 55% so that (a) the Tories can't cut and run to the country (b) neither can the LibDems (c) neither can the LibDems in conjunction with all the other parties together. Which pretty well ensures a fixed term Parliament unless there are rebel Tories or broad consensus, which is what the policy objective is.
5) the Commons can't just change the rule and re-vote because this will be an Act of Parliament rather than the old Commons convention, so changes will need approval from the Lords - and by the time they have that the fuss will have died down.
politics really has changed; i kept agreeing with the tory on question time. hesiltine and hughes did a very good job of arguing for the coalition, though i think i'd be in favour of nearly anything that melanie phillips opposes.
Since I mentioned it in the previous thread, and clearly because it's pertinent right around now, BBC Parliament will be screening the Feb '74 election from 8:30AM on Saturday.
That's... bizarre.Originally Posted by mclem
Since I mentioned it in the previous thread, and clearly because it's pertinent right around now, BBC Parliament will be screening the Feb '74 election from 8:30AM on Saturday.
They've done it a few times before when Parliament's not in session, it's interesting viewing 'cause it gives you a direct feel for how things were in those days; even some simple yet strange sights like ashtrays on the desks...Originally Posted by Mr. Sam
That's... bizarre.
They at least abridge it slightly, right?
Will it be on iplayer? It sounded really interesting when you brought it up last time, and the one video i've seen of the first 10 mins of the 79' election was fascinating; the guy sitting in the corner smoking a cigar, while commentating, being the standout part.Originally Posted by mclem
Since I mentioned it in the previous thread, and clearly because it's pertinent right around now, BBC Parliament will be screening the Feb '74 election from 8:30AM on Saturday.
Reminds me, while I'm here - that department that Vince Cable went on record as saying he wanted abolished? My dad's department. He was part of Vince and Dave's civil servant backdrop on BBC News.
Just watching Question Time now and its reaffirmed my belief that the public and the voters are just as fickle and gullible as the politicians. They harp on for decades that they want politicians to work together, that they want a more representative government. Guess what, the current government is more reflective of public opinion than any government for decades and the yet public are pissed off that they are working together. I hope this QT is not reflective of the voters.
That or activate the mods.Originally Posted by PJV3
You're going to need 55% of posters to agree to end the old thread.
Her and that bloke from the New Statesmen were particially irritating. Was a good show though. Did anyone watch the week or whatever it's called after? God Dianne Abbott gets on my nerves, notice the way she looks up when she answers questions. Not sure why but that really annoys me.Originally Posted by Empty
politics really has changed; i kept agreeing with the tory on question time. hesiltine and hughes did a very good job of arguing for the coalition, though i think i'd be in favour of nearly anything that melanie phillips opposes.
Anyone remember the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 - the so-called 'Abolition of Parliament Act' in which Labour tried to allow Ministers to make any legislation whatever without the need for a Parliamentary vote or even a consultation - probably the most draconian and illiberal Bill ever introduced to Parliament since the Commonwealth, but thankfully watered down by those great guardians of liberty the unelected House of Lords so it could only be used to remove a 'burden'?
Well, wouldn't it be sweet justice if Nick'n'Dave made use of those powers to sweep away the rest of the oppressive legislation that Labour put in. They could do it tomorrow, and I would love to see the look on the opposition faces as they realised they were hoist by their own petard.
I suspect the new government has - or at least wants to be seen as having - more respect for Parliament than that. But it's a nice thought all the same.
Well, wouldn't it be sweet justice if Nick'n'Dave made use of those powers to sweep away the rest of the oppressive legislation that Labour put in. They could do it tomorrow, and I would love to see the look on the opposition faces as they realised they were hoist by their own petard.
I suspect the new government has - or at least wants to be seen as having - more respect for Parliament than that. But it's a nice thought all the same.
Chris Addison was great on Have I Got News for You this week...
he was really sticking it to Julia Hartley-Brewer and other journalists on their behaviour over
a) Gordon Brown remaining PM until there was a government ready to take over and
b) the papers complaining about 'two-timing' Clegg trying to get the best deal for his party (and what he believes best for his country)
c) the papers not understanding how two different parties can work together in a coalition
It was as though he was channeling exactly what a lot of us think.
Oh and Ian Hislop is a smug, self-important, self-righteous, preaching mother fucker. I can't stand him anymore.
he was really sticking it to Julia Hartley-Brewer and other journalists on their behaviour over
a) Gordon Brown remaining PM until there was a government ready to take over and
b) the papers complaining about 'two-timing' Clegg trying to get the best deal for his party (and what he believes best for his country)
c) the papers not understanding how two different parties can work together in a coalition
It was as though he was channeling exactly what a lot of us think.
Oh and Ian Hislop is a smug, self-important, self-righteous, preaching mother fucker. I can't stand him anymore.
Last edited by radioheadrule83; 05-14-2010 at 11:58 AM.
Melanie Philips and that person from the New Statesman were blatently biased and they sucked. I can't believe how much they both sucked. And I'm ashamed at the ignorance of the people who clapped to the nonesense they both spewed.Originally Posted by Empty
politics really has changed; i kept agreeing with the tory on question time. hesiltine and hughes did a very good job of arguing for the coalition, though i think i'd be in favour of nearly anything that melanie phillips opposes.
The electorate voted in such a way that gave Cons the most seats, short of majority. Lib Dems not many seats but enough to make a majority only with the Cons, and Labour with not enough seats even in a coalition (except an unworkable one consisting of many different parties).
The Lib Dems choice is a pointless coalition with Labour, which it seems Labour didn't care about anyway (probably because it's pointless and would make them even more unpopular), leaving the Cons to a minority government that is less stable, and will implement exactly 0 of the Lib Dem's exclusive policies, or coalition and have a government that will not only implement some of the Lib Dem policies (or at least a step towards, like a referendum on AV), but also take the edge off of some of the Tory policy. And on top of that, some Lib Dems instead of the Cons in cabinate and ministerial positions.
It's a very simple choice in my eyes, at least retrospectively, and Nick Clegg even very clearly said he'd seek to form a coalition with the party who gains most seats, which was almost certain to be the Conservatives from what we saw in the polls.
People who voted Lib Dems in general would have preferred a Lib Dem majority, but of course that's not going to happen. And the outcome, if you prefer that, was definitely going to be much worse than you wanted. But out of the options displayed as a result of the election, Lib Dems forming a coalition with the Conservatives was the best thing they could have done out of a bunch of unfavourable (compared to a Lib Dem majority) outcomes... and people complain at it. I don't like the Conservatives, but I'm happy the Lib Dems propped them up.
Politicians working together, and now people hate it.
Last edited by Parl; 05-14-2010 at 12:27 PM.
His faux self-satisfaction ain't so faux these days.Originally Posted by radioheadrule83
Oh and Ian Hislop is a smug, self-important, self-righteous, preaching mother fucker. I can't stand him anymore.
And even for a satirical panel show, I thought HIGNFY was just plain cruel to Brown.
Give it time, everyone is used to adversarial politics for such a long time, its going to take a long time to break the Tribal nature of our politics, the longer this coalition is in power, the quicker tribal politics will disappear.Originally Posted by Parl
Politicians working together, and now people hate it.
People are just annoyed at the possibility that they'd have to talk and work together with other tribes, thats all.
Over time I'm sure we'll change to a more european mindset on politics, but until then theres going to be angry people.
Originally Posted by radioheadrule83
Chris Addison was great on Have I Got News for You this week...
he was really sticking it to Julia Hartley-Brewer and other journalists on their behaviour over
a) Gordon Brown remaining PM until there was a government ready to take over and
b) the papers complaining about 'two-timing' Clegg trying to get the best deal for his party (and what he believes best for his country)
c) the papers not understanding how two different parties can work together in a coalition
It was as though he was channeling exactly what a lot of us think.
Oh and Ian Hislop is a smug, self-important, self-righteous, preaching mother fucker. I can't stand him anymore.
A million times this. He was brilliant.
You're not the guy from 313 are you? >__>Originally Posted by Deadman
A million times this. He was brilliant.
I think this whole 55% vote thing has really been blown out of proportion. As I understand the old 50% + 1 confidence vote still applies, this new measure is to ensure that the PM cannot simply dissolve Parliament and call a new election when it suits him. This measure could be very good for our democracy but it needs constructive debate, idiotic comments from the likes of the unelected Lord Adonis are not very helpful.
Lib Dem David Howarth on the BBC:
He said critics had got "entirely the wrong end of the stick" adding: "This dissolution vote, the 55% for a dissolution, is not the same as, for a vote of confidence."
A Downing Street spokeswoman said the old rule would still apply to no confidence votes - but should a government be defeated, it would not automatically trigger an election, a 55% vote would be required to dissolve parliament.
Lib Dem David Howarth on the BBC:
He said critics had got "entirely the wrong end of the stick" adding: "This dissolution vote, the 55% for a dissolution, is not the same as, for a vote of confidence."
A Downing Street spokeswoman said the old rule would still apply to no confidence votes - but should a government be defeated, it would not automatically trigger an election, a 55% vote would be required to dissolve parliament.
Just watched it on iplayer and I could not agree more.Originally Posted by Parl
Melanie Philips and that person from the New Statesman were blatently biased and they sucked. I can't believe how much they both sucked.
The brazen, primordial (and unchallenged) assumption that every single person who votes agrees with every single manifesto pledge of the party they vote for and is betrayed by anything even an dishcloth short of it shows a woeful misunderstanding of the nature of politics and the nature of people. Just because a political party thinks something is a good idea doesn't mean that magically 6 or 8 or 10 million people will immediately roll over and praise it. We can only vote with the one cross for the best, or the least worst, of what we are offered.
I'm overjoyed with this coalition, and will not put up with people telling me that I ought to feel betrayed because a couple of parties have compromised on some policies that I didn't necessarily agree with in the first place.
I suppose they have papers to sell, but I bet their circulation is nowhere near the votes for even the lib dems - so it is probably confined to the lunatic fringes.
(I don't know why I put the word dishcloth in that paragraph - must be losing it.)
If they were going to have someone from the New Statesman, or at least a contributor to its pages, they should have had John Gray. The man has the potential for unanswerable, abrasive commentary and a steady philosophical brain.
It is not a shadow of the magazine it was. Shame. I'm reading a biography of Kingsley Martin at the moment, and I've been reading the obituaries of Alan Watkins (rest his blessed Welsh soul). Nor is the Spectator since glorious Boris sought and captured office.
It is not a shadow of the magazine it was. Shame. I'm reading a biography of Kingsley Martin at the moment, and I've been reading the obituaries of Alan Watkins (rest his blessed Welsh soul). Nor is the Spectator since glorious Boris sought and captured office.
Plans to repeal the Human Rights Act have been shelved. Suck on that ya cunts!
Good. It was a rotten idea in the first place, and I can't imagine that anyone who knows their law would want to do otherwise.Originally Posted by Zenith
Plans to repeal the Human Rights Act have been shelved. Suck on that ya cunts!
Notice that it was a Tory who kicked it into the long grass - the estimable Ken Clarke.
Yes, this has always annoyed me - as if the election was a referendum on every single line of the manifesto. I can't remember the details, but there was a particularly annoying one after the 92 election where the Tories implemented some controversial legislation claiming it was a 'manifesto pledge' - despite their tiny margin of victory.Originally Posted by phisheep
The brazen, primordial (and unchallenged) assumption that every single person who votes agrees with every single manifesto pledge of the party they vote for and is betrayed by anything even an dishcloth short of it shows a woeful misunderstanding of the nature of politics and the nature of people.
Clarke was always more of a Lib Dem anyway. A europhile Tory, such a contradiction. :lolOriginally Posted by phisheep
Good. It was a rotten idea in the first place, and I can't imagine that anyone who knows their law would want to do otherwise.
Notice that it was a Tory who kicked it into the long grass - the estimable Ken Clarke.
Have to admire Ken Clarke; he really doesn't belong in the Tory party but I'm glad he's there. And yes, replacing the HRA would have been incredibly stupid. It needs clarification yes, but not repealing.Originally Posted by phisheep
Good. It was a rotten idea in the first place, and I can't imagine that anyone who knows their law would want to do otherwise.
Notice that it was a Tory who kicked it into the long grass - the estimable Ken Clarke.
Originally Posted by Sage00
Clarke was always more of a Lib Dem anyway.
Blimey, doesn't it occur to anyone that he might be, well, an example of a nice Tory?Originally Posted by Sir Fragula
Have to admire Ken Clarke; he really doesn't belong in the Tory party
The logic seems to go:
- Tories are nasty
- There's a nice Tory
- Ah, that doesn't count, he's not really a Tory
- Oh, look, there's another one
- He doesn't count either
...and so on
Keep going on like that and you'll find there's only a handful of 'real Tories' - just enough to fit in an ordinary-sized pub - and the rest of us are perfectly normal thankyou.
Err.. it's not about being nice or nasty. It's about having conservative values and views on issues. Ken Clarke seems like a dick in the pre-Cameron Tory style in interviews, but it's not about polticians' personalities.Originally Posted by phisheep
Blimey, doesn't it occur to anyone that he might be, well, an example of a nice Tory?
The logic seems to go:
- Tories are nasty
- There's a nice Tory
- Ah, that doesn't count, he's not really a Tory
- Oh, look, there's another one
- He doesn't count either
...and so on
Keep going on like that and you'll find there's only a handful of 'real Tories' - just enough to fit in an ordinary-sized pub - and the rest of us are perfectly normal thankyou.
Last edited by Sage00; 05-14-2010 at 02:39 PM.
Originally Posted by Mr. Sam
They at least abridge it slightly, right?
Nope.Morning
3.
08:00–08:30
Newsnight
14/05/2010
With Gavin Esler.
4.
08:30–15:00
Election 74
Part 1
A chance to relive the February 1974 General Election.
Afternoon
1.
15:00–20:00
Election 74
Part 2
A chance to relive the February 1974 General Election.
Evening
1.
20:00–00:00
Election 74
Part 3
A chance to relive the February 1974 General Election.
Late
1.
00:00–00:25
The Record Europe
15/05/2010
An in-depth look at the politics of Europe, presented by Shirin Wheeler.
I *think* it will, but I'm not certain. The iPlayer button states that it's not available, but I think that's because it's referring to the previous showing (back in February), well past the 1-week cutoff.Originally Posted by Empty
Will it be on iplayer? It sounded really interesting when you brought it up last time, and the one video i've seen of the first 10 mins of the 79' election was fascinating; the guy sitting in the corner smoking a cigar, while commentating, being the standout part.
Melanie Philips is a complete nut job.Originally Posted by Parl
Melanie Philips and that person from the New Statesman were blatently biased and they sucked. I can't believe how much they both sucked.
Go read some of her Daily Mail column. Its all about how the evil gays and athiests are destroying our society and persecuting Christians into extinction.
Stephen Timms, a Labour MP, got stabbed in the chest in London says Sky News
:/
:/
WATOriginally Posted by Keyser Soze
Stephen Timms, a Labour MP, got stabbed in the chest in London says Sky News
:/
indeed, dont take mad mel seriously.Originally Posted by Atrophis
Melanie Philips is a complete nut job.
Go read some of her Daily Mail column. Its all about how the evil gays and athiests are destroying our society and persecuting Christians into extinction.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...#ixzz0nv61Yb00Originally Posted by Keyser Soze
Stephen Timms, a Labour MP, got stabbed in the chest in London says Sky News
:/
crazy. My first thought was he got mugged or something.The former senior Government finance minister was attacked during a surgery at his East Ham constituency in London's East End.
As an appointment with a 21-year-old woman ended at 3.20pm, she produced a knife and plunged it into the 54-year-old MP.
Police were called and the young woman was arrested at the local council services centre in Beckton.
She is being assessed by doctors over her mental state.
Meanwhile, Mr Timms was taken by ambulance to Newham General Hospital. His condition is not said to be life-threatening.
Oh Newham
Just watching Question time, its terrible and Mehdi Hasan is a populist twat.
We are having a 5 year parliament because as Hestletine e.t.c say ' to go to the electorate before then would see both parties destroyed'. We now have a 55% rule which magically is just about the right figure to keep the tories in.Originally Posted by Nicktendo86
I think this whole 55% vote thing has really been blown out of proportion. As I understand the old 50% + 1 confidence vote still applies, this new measure is to ensure that the PM cannot simply dissolve Parliament and call a new election when it suits him. This measure could be very good for our democracy but it needs constructive debate, idiotic comments from the likes of the unelected Lord Adonis are not very helpful.
Lib Dem David Howarth on the BBC:
He said critics had got "entirely the wrong end of the stick" adding: "This dissolution vote, the 55% for a dissolution, is not the same as, for a vote of confidence."
A Downing Street spokeswoman said the old rule would still apply to no confidence votes - but should a government be defeated, it would not automatically trigger an election, a 55% vote would be required to dissolve parliament.
At the next election there will be new constituency boundaries which will broadly favour the conservatives.(do we see a pattern forming)
Makes sense. My exposure to her, and that other irrational looney, were them on this Question Time. And on that, they both sucked massively.Originally Posted by Atrophis
Melanie Philips is a complete nut job.
Go read some of her Daily Mail column. Its all about how the evil gays and athiests are destroying our society and persecuting Christians into extinction.
They're meant to be journalists - a career where it seems that the type of people who are precisely poor at being journalists, are journalists.
I looked up the video and had to close the tab as soon as I heard "Londonistan." What a hack.Originally Posted by Mecha_Infantry
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/feb2009/melanie_phillips_on_fox.jpg
The audience had some bad eggs in it too, lots of people unable to deal with the concept of a compromise.
Which is pretty much the defining feature of politics around the world.Originally Posted by Empty
The audience had some bad eggs in it too, lots of people unable to deal with the concept of a compromise.
After the Messiah complex that Blair/Thatcher developed and that whatever they did was in the national interest, a critical public and press is what we need to keep JFK and son in check.Originally Posted by Empty
The audience had some bad eggs in it too, lots of people unable to deal with the concept of a compromise.
Lets keep the fuckers on their toes this time.
[IMG]http://i39.************/5zdydg.jpg[/IMG]
So 60% of voters approve of the coalition, and more interestingly 69% of LDem voters support it. Seems to confirm my theory that the allegedly disgruntled LDems voters who claim that the coalition is a 'betrayal' are probably Labour supporters. Speaking of which, only 25% of Labour voters support the coalition. :lol
So 60% of voters approve of the coalition, and more interestingly 69% of LDem voters support it. Seems to confirm my theory that the allegedly disgruntled LDems voters who claim that the coalition is a 'betrayal' are probably Labour supporters. Speaking of which, only 25% of Labour voters support the coalition. :lol
Stephen Timms stabbed twice in the stomach: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8683596.stm
Ed Milliband commits to running for Labour leader. It's on like Donkey Kong: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8684063.stm
Ed Milliband commits to running for Labour leader. It's on like Donkey Kong: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8684063.stm
The 55% rule applies to dissolution of parliament only, not confidence in the government. If 50%+1 vote against a confidence bill the government has to resign.
This is not a new or unusual thing: in Scotland 66% MPs are required to dissolve parliament.
I agree with everyone's comments about Melanie Philips and Mehdi Hassan, holy shit they were so opinionated and bitter.
This is not a new or unusual thing: in Scotland 66% MPs are required to dissolve parliament.
I agree with everyone's comments about Melanie Philips and Mehdi Hassan, holy shit they were so opinionated and bitter.
Last edited by jas0nuk; 05-15-2010 at 01:20 AM.
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