[PumpkinPie]

I liked the part where Snake wore the trench coat and sneaked through the streets...and wore a young Snake mask!

[Solid Moustache]

-the entire scene is meant to be very dramatic and moving, but kojima somehow didn't realize that it doesn't quite work when it's a woman stabbing herself in the neck with a syringe for no reason while two men stare and do nothing. meanwhile a toy robot on rollerskates is dancing around, and on its screen is a giant wimp sobbing and probably dripping snot like a 10yo child

Nailed it man, nailed it. :lol (it's funny when you think about it in retrospect) This kind of problem was in other scenes too.

-the best way to immediately follow a "moving" death scene is to get into a giant robot and shoot missiles and a cock laser and then have a giant robot battle

:lol :lol :lol

[Ten-Song]

on the other hand, the Big Boss scene has a football to the groin

Don't forget a poop joke! There's a poop joke stuffed in there as well!

[EmCeeGramr]

i still can't believe how much they fucked up ocelot, either

"Well, he's not REALLY possessed by Liquid's ghost."

But he was clearly supposed to be in MGS2, and MGS3 establishes Ocelot's father as a spirit medium.

"Oh! Uh, right. Well, he USED to be possessed by Liquid, but he got rid of the arm and now he's just faking it with nanomachines and hypnosis."

Why?

"Because he couldn't control a ghost."

But if it's hypnosis and nanomachines, wouldn't it be an unconscious transformation and out of his control?

"...shut up. Anyway, the reason he did it was to fool the Patriots AI."

How?

"What?"

How is tricking a computer into thinking you're possessed by a ghost (or making it think that you're crazy) going to help?

"Because then the AIs wouldn't realize that Ocelot was a traitor, because they'd think he was Liquid. That'd let Ocelot... do stuff."

These AIs have run the entire world for decades, but they don't see a crazy man attacking them as a threat, because he's pretending to be a possessed by a ghost?

"Exactly."

This is like a really shitty version of that final case in Phoenix Wright 3.

[Nemo]

GREATEST VIDEOGAME OF ALL TIME

Are you on the lookout or some shit for these? :lol

Still, the man is right

[Solid Moustache]

In 4, nobody gives a flying fuck if he wants to shoot himself in the head.

You forgot the part where if he doesn't suicide the whole world fucking dies? Only big boss knew this when snake went to the cementary, and big boss only was able to tell snake in there.

[IrrelevantNotch]

There was this story about this translator dude who converted Kojima's cheesy ass lines into proper Hollywood-ish English, atleast B-movie grade acceptable levels. But he did this on his own accord. That's why MGS1, though sounded OTT and cheesy at times, had really memorable lines and acceptable work. Kojima apparently fired this guy and his team, resulting in a trainwreck of MGS2 script.

Ha, yea, someone on Reddit claims to be that guy. Goes under the name JohnHyperion. I got into argument with him once regarding Yahtzee's criticisms.

[Blader5489]

i still can't believe how much they fucked up ocelot, either "Well, he's not REALLY possessed by Liquid's ghost." But he was clearly supposed to be in MGS2, and MGS3 establishes Ocelot's father as a spirit medium. "Oh! Uh, right. Well, he USED to be possessed by Liquid, but he got rid of the arm and now he's just faking it with nanomachines and hypnosis." Why? "Because he couldn't control a ghost." But if it's hypnosis and nanomachines, wouldn't it be an unconscious transformation and out of his control? "...shut up. Anyway, the reason he did it was to fool the Patriots AI." How? "What?" How is tricking a computer into thinking you're possessed by a ghost (or making it think that you're crazy) going to help? "Because then the AIs wouldn't realize that Ocelot was a traitor, because they'd think he was Liquid. That'd let Ocelot... do stuff." These AIs have run the entire world for decades, but they don't see a crazy man attacking them as a threat, because he's pretending to be a possessed by a ghost? "Exactly." This is like a really shitty version of that final case in Phoenix Wright 3.

Ocelot was never possessed and his father's genes never had anything to do with it. That's just a fan theory people were convinced was right for 4 years that they couldn't let go of it.

The official line from the game is that he essentially reprogrammed himself into becoming Liquid.

[Pappasman]

Lol no. Loved the game, but no. Maybe if you had choosen one the previous two (the one with the explosion can't remember) but no..

What? the ending to EP2 was crazy good.

[TheSeks]

There was this story about this translator dude who converted Kojima's cheesy ass lines into proper Hollywood-ish English, atleast B-movie grade acceptable levels. But he did this on his own accord. That's why MGS1, though sounded OTT and cheesy at times, had really memorable lines and acceptable work. Kojima apparently fired this guy and his team, resulting in a trainwreck of MGS2 script.

You mean Jeremy Blaustein?

This?

NK Have you been contacted by KCEJ regarding translating MGS2 Sons of Liberty? JB Yes, I was told that someone else is doing it (perhaps a Japanese translation company). I'm sure you can imagine my disappointment. As far as the reviews I read, they almost universally said that it was the greatest voice/text localization job done to that point. It's hard to imagine why they didn't ask me but I fear it was some behind the scenes backstabbing by ambitious people within the company. Oh well, if the translation and voice-over recording is not as good as MGS you will know why, and I would be overjoyed to have people send me their opinion about the localization job of MGS 1 vs. 2 at any point. Hell, send them directly to KCEJ of you like.

They never "fired" him, he was working freelance (he left KoA/KoJ/Konami) after Snatcher Sega CD released in the US. He did MGS1 freelance (IIRC) and wasn't asked back in MGS2. Why? Dunno.

[sonicmj1]

This thread comes up enough that I'm hardly interested in making another three-paragraph post explaining why MGS4 was disappointing. But it was. The more cutscenes there are, the worse the plot they convey becomes, until it ends in a 75 minute long hatred machine. It's like a snowball sliding down a mountain of shit. A shame, because the gameplay is really good when they allow it to shine.

As I said earlier, it has one of my favorite endings not only in gaming but in any medium.

How

[Buckethead]

MGS2 had an epic arc. You felt like you lived through that shit.
The player went in a whiny bitch like Raiden was and came out a soldier who just took on RAYs like it was nothing.
This is of course, failing to mention all of the beautiful questions that the game presents.

MGS3 was full of 70s Bond-ish style, beautiful graphics, and substance and had some
greater depth than any of the other games.

That being said, despite some great moments Microwave scene, etc. I had a feeling of "I waited 7 years for this shit?". The retconning was too much,
the ending was ridiculous even for MGS standards, and they pissed away two of dramatic and beautiful scenes by having both Snake and Raiden live.

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Let's not forget the psuedo-incestuous love-in between Solid Snake and Big Mama, rife with innuendo such as "will you ride with me one last time?" and "you shoot just like your father" (i'm not sure she actually said this, but I can imagine). I mean, ffs, thou shalt not covet your own goddam mother. The Big Mama character was further sullied when she started using the "violent videogames" reasoning for the recruitment of PMC soldiers. No indoctrination, no extremist political ideals... they just played a bit too much Doom. My face was firmly in my palm for that entire act.

[RustyNails]

Nailed it man, nailed it. :lol (it's funny when you think about it in retrospect) This kind of problem was in other scenes too.

It really was that detached problem in the entire game. The scene has Solid Snake coughing his lungs out and is pretty much expected to die after the last mission and then the very next scene has camera focusing on Mei Ling's jiggling butt where she's acting like a hentai actress in a Navy uniform.

[Blader5489]

Let's not forget the psuedo-incestuous love-in between Solid Snake and Big Mama, rife with innuendo such as "will you ride with me one last time?" and "you shoot just like your father" (i'm not sure she actually said this, but I can imagine). I mean, ffs, thou shalt not covet your own goddam mother. The Big Mama character was further sullied when she started using the "violent videogames" reasoning for the recruitment of PMC soldiers. No indoctrination, no extremist political ideals... they just played a bit too much Doom. My face was firmly in my palm for that entire act.

But that's from MGS2. You know, VR training, soldiers fighting without real experience or knowledge, etc.

[harriet the spy]

Tons of funny stuff

:lol :lol

I liked MGS 4, but god it was flawed. And the story was ridiculous.

[Solid Moustache]

Let's not forget the psuedo-incestuous love-in between Solid Snake and Big Mama, rife with innuendo such as "will you ride with me one last time?" and "you shoot just like your father" (i'm not sure she actually said this, but I can imagine). I mean, ffs, thou shalt not covet your own goddam mother. The Big Mama character was further sullied when she started using the "violent videogames" reasoning for the recruitment of PMC soldiers. No indoctrination, no extremist political ideals... they just played a bit too much Doom. My face was firmly in my palm for that entire act.

Well in the MGS universe violent games were the patriots' way of recruiting young people to feed into the war machine. So it fits with the story.

Now you can argue and say the whole "videogames/patriots" thing is stupid, but the big mama thing fits in fine IMO.

[I NEED SCISSORS]

But that's from MGS2. You know, VR training, soldiers fighting without real experience or knowledge, etc.

No, she flat out implied that sitting at home playing a violent videogame will make you join a PMC. If she had meant VR, she would have said VR - this is a Kojima game, it would have been spelled out for us.

[Pappasman]

they pissed away two of dramatic and beautiful scenes by having both Snake and Raiden live.

I agree. Letting them live was stupid.

[RustyNails]

You forgot the part where if he doesn't suicide the whole world fucking dies? Only big boss knew this when snake went to the cementary, and big boss only was able to tell snake in there.

Which is again, balls out trippy. Solid Snake being turned into a ticking time bomb. FFS. Besides, shouldn't Naomi have known about this?

[EmCeeGramr]

Ocelot was never possessed and his father's genes never had anything to do with it. That's just a fan theory people were convinced was right for 4 years that they couldn't let go of it. The official line from the game is that he essentially reprogrammed himself into becoming Liquid.

MGS2 Digital Comic showed Liquid's spirit taking over Ocelot and The Sorrow being disappointed in his son's weakness.

MGS Database also indicates that Liquid was in control in MGS2.

During MGS2's development, Kojima explicitly stated that Liquid Snake was possessing Ocelot from beyond the grave, via the arm. Given how Kojima has also admitted to his lack of writing ahead (he just writes each game at a time, with a vague idea of where the sequel might go), I doubt he was trying to hide "the truth."

And finally, if there was no possession, then it leads to another problem: WHY discard Liquid's arm and replace it with a mechanical one, which would risk the Patriots' discovery of this inane "plan"?



My personal theory has always been that Kojima saw the backlash about the "ghost arm" plot device in two, tried to find a way out with the "spirit medium father" angle, then gave up and retconned it with the "Ocelot was faking" twist. He didn't want to deal with a "tainted" plot device, so he tried to undo it.

[cosmicblizzard]

How

I just thought it was an excellent and inspiring ending. Finding out Ocelot was possessed the whole time, seeing Big Boss and Zero, finding out about the reason everyone around Snake was dying. Best of all, Kojima threw a curve ball by actually NOT killing Snake, something everyone was expecting since at least a year prior. Oh, and let's not forget the fantastic score.

You're free to disagree. If this thread is anything to go by, my opinion definitely isn't a popular one but hey, I was moved. I'm not gonna let the consensus ruin that.

[Gin]

the story sucked balls - big time. I was so lost at times that I just stopped trying to even understand

the graphics were great.

the only i enjoyed was taking pics of the women in various positions - was not even expecting that in this game :D


overall - forgettable game. The only reason i even played it is because the game was packaged with my ps3

[Ten-Song]

MGS2 Digital Comic showed Liquid's spirit taking over Ocelot and The Sorrow being disappointed in his son's weakness. MGS Database also indicates that Liquid was in control in MGS2. During MGS2's development, Kojima explicitly stated that Liquid Snake was possessing Ocelot from beyond the grave, via the arm. And finally, if there was no possession, then it leads to another problem: WHY discard Liquid's arm and replace it with a mechanical one, which would risk the Patriots' discovery of this inane "plan"?

Maybe he never had Liquid's Arm, and just painted that one to look like it for awhile before he got angry and took a Brillo pad to it or something?

I don't try to analyze the story to that degree considering how horrifically awful the dialog is.

[EmCeeGramr]

I just thought it was an excellent and inspiring ending. Finding out Ocelot was possessed the whole time, seeing Big Boss and Zero, finding out about the reason everyone around Snake was dying. Best of all, Kojima threw a curve ball by actually NOT killing Snake, something everyone was expecting since at least a year prior. Oh, and let's not forget the fantastic score. You're free to disagree. If this thread is anything to go by, my opinion definitely isn't a popular one but hey, I was moved. I'm not gonna let the consensus ruin that.

Those were pretty much the reasons the ending was a terrible insult to MGS fans. It insulted Snake, it cheapened Big Boss, its use of Zero was laughable, and the Ocelot thing was a stupid clusterfuck where they practically tried to show a sadistic torturing murderer and terrorist as a tragic hero.

[Solid Moustache]

Which is again, balls out trippy. Solid Snake being turned into a ticking time bomb. FFS. Besides, shouldn't Naomi have known about this?

I don't disagree with you, but I was just explaining that other problem which in the context of the shitty story makes sense :D

[IrishNinja]

EmCeeGramr covered a lotta bases, and i know i skimmed here, but have we covered how Naomi couldnt've talked to Big Boss while he was on ice, or why Big Momma threw herself on the pyre of Solidus, etc? fucking hell.

[Ten-Song]

Those were pretty much the reasons the ending was a terrible insult to MGS fans. It insulted Snake, it cheapened Big Boss, its use of Zero was laughable, and the Ocelot thing was a stupid clusterfuck where they practically tried to show a sadistic torturing murderer and terrorist as a tragic hero.

But you see, Kojima is just such a rebel! Sure, anyone else would try to tell a good story, but Kojima goes off the beaten path to make sure everything about MGS4 was as actively repulsive as possible. YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HIS MAGNIFICENCE!

[Buckethead]

Everyone has failed to directly mention the lack of Cam Clarke. I could almost swallow the whole retcon if Ocelot didn't vocalize as Liquid using Cam's voice multiple times throughout MGS2.

Nothing against Patric Zimmerman but Cam's Liquid is just far and away the better villain.
Cam's Liquid is a great antithesis to Hayter's Solid. One is loud brash, the other is grizzly and reserved. What it was replaced with was just two old dudes quietly looking at one another and dumb shit like that. It wasn't even a cool No Country For Old Men ending style situation offering insight on what the young. Just two old boring guys with no wisdom.

And with the graphical leap, it didn't even really look like the Ocelot we knew, not to mention some of the animation seemed incredibly off. They ruined 2 great characters in one average game. Then you can point to his relation to Kris and ask "was it because they used to knock boots"?

MGS4 makes me sad. I love the series, I wanted to LOVE MGS4 but unfortunately it's always going to be like the Star Wars prequels to me. A couple of few moments surrounded in rubbish.

[EmCeeGramr]

But you see, Kojima is just such a rebel! Sure, anyone else would try to tell a good story, but Kojima goes off the beaten path to make sure everything about MGS4 was as actively repulsive as possible. YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HIS MAGNIFICENCE!

*murders harmless old man in wheelchair, lies and claims no malicious intent whatsoever, justifies it with a stupid nonsensical bit of wordplay*

Big Boss, True American Hero :eaglecry

[StuBurns]

But you see, Kojima is just such a rebel! Sure, anyone else would try to tell a good story, but Kojima goes off the beaten path to make sure everything about MGS4 was as actively repulsive as possible. YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HIS MAGNIFICENCE!

MGS2 is incredibly poorly written, however it was very bold, there is merit to that view. Kojima has bigger balls than anyone in the industry. No one has done anything as provocative in gaming as MGS2. He is magnificent, he's just a poor writer with it.

Everyone has failed to directly mention the lack of Cam Clarke. I could almost swallow the whole retcon if Ocelot didn't vocalize as Liquid using Cam's voice multiple times throughout MGS2. Nothing against Patric Zimmerman but Cam's Liquid is just far and away the better villain. With the graphical leap, it didn't even really look like the Ocelot we knew, not to mention some of the animation seemed incredibly off. They ruined 2 great characters in one average game. Then you can point to his relation to Kris and ask "was it because they used to knock boots"? MGS4 makes me sad. I love the series, I wanted to LOVE MGS4 but unfortunately it's always going to be like the Star Wars prequels to me. A couple of few moments surrounded in rubbish.

The Japanese version has the Liquid VO as the Ocelot one had died before the game. I think story wise the English version makes more sense though.

I'd have got Cam Clarke back for Master Miller in PW, that'd make some sense as his voice must be close enough that Snake couldn't tell it wasn't him in MGS1 days.

[Ten-Song]

*murders harmless old man in wheelchair, lies and claims no malicious intent whatsoever, justifies it with a stupid nonsensical bit of wordplay* Big Boss, True American Hero :eaglecry

"Back to zero, zero one, back to zero, Boss's will, back to zero, patriots, back to zero, zero, one to one hundred, back to zero, patriots, Boss's will, back to zero. I have no idea what any of this means, back to zero, Boss's will, back to zero."

[Lafiel]

Still one of the best experiences i've had this gen. Although the storyline gets worse everytime i think about it.:lol in fact thanks to this thread, i'm thinking about the storyline again. And yeah it just gotten worse.:lol

[HK-47]

Kojima literally took a shit on everyone who liked his games. Literally. It actually happened in real life. He flew into the atmosphere and shit into the trade winds, and Kojima shit particulates were carried across the globe where they landed upon people who liked his games. He just walked in my door and did it again. I am calling the police, right now, but he's laughing at me and shouting bullshit about how the police can't arrest him if he pretends he's a ghost. I mean, some of you like scat play, and that's none of my business, but shit is shit.

EmCee, you slay me.

[cosmicblizzard]

Those were pretty much the reasons the ending was a terrible insult to MGS fans. It insulted Snake, it cheapened Big Boss, its use of Zero was laughable, and the Ocelot thing was a stupid clusterfuck where they practically tried to show a sadistic torturing murderer and terrorist as a tragic hero.

I don't see anything wrong with humanizing Ocelot. 3 did that too. His final line with the dual voice was amazing imo because of everything that happened throughout the series. Liquid was being built up as the main villain when really it was Ocelot who had just as big a role in the grand scheme of things if not bigger before Les Enfants Terribles was even conceived.

And Zero showing up as a vegetable was awesome precisely because of his role in 3. He seemed a lot more trustworthy than the colonel and then we find out a simple difference of opinion lead him and Big Boss to become mortal enemies. It was bittersweet seeing old friends reunited like that just to die together after a battle spanning several decades.

[EmCeeGramr]

EmCee, you slay me.

Yeah, but slaying you is totally alright. See, a million comes from 47 (i don't know math at all i'm just making shit up here but bear with me), and your username on a message board has "47" in it, so in order to stop a million things I have to slay 47, i.e., kill someone with that number as part of a nickname.

[bernardobri]

I'd have got Cam Clarke back for Master Miller in PW, that'd make some sense as his voice must be close enough that Snake couldn't tell it wasn't him in MGS1 days.

To be fair, Robin makes a great Miller. But then again we're comparing his impression with an imitation that apparently was good enough to fool Solid Snake (although considering his lack of sense in some topics, it's not a good reference :lol)

[Ten-Song]

And Zero showing up as a vegetable was awesome precisely because of his role in 3. He seemed a lot more trustworthy than the colonel and then we find out a simple difference of opinion lead him and Big Boss to become mortal enemies. It was bittersweet seeing old friends reunited like that just to die together after a battle spanning several decades.

Just because he showed up and they magically made up a new story direction for him does not make it awesome. The Lord of the Rings could have ended with Sauron suddenly taking physical form, and then he confronts Elrond and they suddenly talk about being great friends who had different ideas on what to do with the rings of power, and then they shake hands and scream at each other and explode into a butterfly volcano. Just because it's a new direction for established characters being completely pulled out of someone's ass does not make it great.

[hamchan]

WORST GAME IN THE SERIES

[cosmicblizzard]

Just because he showed up and they magically made up a new story direction for him does not make it awesome. The Lord of the Rings could have ended with Sauron suddenly taking physical form, and then he confronts Elrond and they suddenly talk about being great friends who had different ideas on what to do with the rings of power, and then they shake hands and scream at each other and explode into a butterfly volcano. Just because it's a new direction for established characters being completely pulled out of someone's ass does not make it great.

It wasn't out of nowhere. It was implied since Portable Ops.

[HK-47]

Yeah, but slaying you is totally alright. See, a million comes from 47 (i don't know math at all i'm just making shit up here but bear with me), and your username on a message board has "47" in it, so in order to stop a million things I have to slay 47, i.e., kill someone with that number as part of a nickname.

I understand this better than MGS4's plot.

[IrishNinja]

Just because he showed up and they magically made up a new story direction for him does not make it awesome. The Lord of the Rings could have ended with Sauron suddenly taking physical form, and then he confronts Elrond and they suddenly talk about being great friends who had different ideas on what to do with the rings of power, and then they shake hands and scream at each other and explode into a butterfly volcano. Just because it's a new direction for established characters being completely pulled out of someone's ass does not make it great.

this, plus it really taints my experience with MGS3 (best of the series), kinda scared to replay it and dig Para-medic, Signit & Zero knowing the fucking monsters they end up becoming now.

[StuBurns]

this, plus it really taints my experience with MGS3 (best of the series), kinda scared to replay it and dig Para-medic, Signit & Zero knowing the fucking monsters they end up becoming now.

They were hardly 'monsters', the Patriots are not evil.

[EmCeeGramr]

It wasn't out of nowhere. It was implied since Portable Ops.

It was implied in Portable Ops (in a hilariously poorly done fashion*), that he was feeding information to Ocelot and was involved in the Patriots' creation, not that he was an evil megalomaniac who took control and fought against Big Boss.

If you're referring to the "The Boss' death being a setup" guy, then that was the CIA director; otherwise, Zero's motives make no sense at all.

*("OH, YOU'RE THE MAN WHOSE CODENAME CAN BE CONSIDERED SYNONYMOUS WITH SOME OTHER GUY'S CODENAME. I WILL SAY THIS EVEN THOUGH I AM TALKING TO YOU DIRECTLY.")


Also, the Patriots were pretty evil. The genetic experiments with horrific failure rates, encouraging nuclear war, assassinations, extensive development of unbelievable NBC weaponry.

Para-Medic/Dr. Clark, far from the nice person with explicitly stated ethical standards in MGS3, tortured Gray Fox and kept him alive in a state of constant pain and psychosis by pumping him full of drugs, for the sake of making genetically perfect killing machines. Not to mention Les Enfants Terribles, going through an experimental and ethically difficult cloning procedure of a man without his consent or knowledge.

[HappyBivouac]

Just because he showed up and they magically made up a new story direction for him does not make it awesome. The Lord of the Rings could have ended with Sauron suddenly taking physical form, and then he confronts Elrond and they suddenly talk about being great friends who had different ideas on what to do with the rings of power, and then they shake hands and scream at each other and explode into a butterfly volcano. Just because it's a new direction for established characters being completely pulled out of someone's ass does not make it great.

It's more akin to:

After the ring is finally destroyed, we discover that Bilbo, in his younger days, actually created the ring, unaware of the evil and destruction it would bring upon the world. Then Gandalf, in his last dying breaths gives a long history lesson, comes up with some god awful wordplay and uses it to justify killing Bilbo just for the lols.

[HK-47]

It was implied in Portable Ops (in a hilariously poorly done fashion*), that he was feeding information to Ocelot and was involved in the Patriots' creation, not that he was an evil megalomaniac who took control and fought against Big Boss. If you're referring to the "The Boss' death being a setup" guy, then that was the CIA director; otherwise, Zero's motives make no sense at all. *("OH, YOU'RE THE MAN WHOSE CODENAME CAN BE CONSIDERED SYNONYMOUS WITH SOME OTHER GUY'S CODENAME. I WILL SAY THIS EVEN THOUGH I AM TALKING TO YOU DIRECTLY.") Also, the Patriots were pretty evil. The genetic experiments with horrific failure rates, encouraging nuclear war, assassinations, extensive development of unbelievable NBC weaponry. Para-Medic/Dr. Clark, far from the nice person with explicitly stated ethical standards in MGS3, tortured Gray Fox and kept him alive in a state of constant pain and psychosis by pumping him full of drugs, for the sake of making genetically perfect killing machines. Not to mention Les Enfants Terribles, going through an experimental and ethically difficult cloning procedure of a man without his consent or knowledge.

Thats not evil. Clearly they are all just misunderstood.

[IrishNinja]

They were hardly 'monsters', the Patriots are not evil.

i dunno, man. Para-medic did some sick shit to Grey Fox, to make him the Ninja, if i recall correctly. MGS2/4 did much to paint the patriots as military-controllin', war-loving censor-bots. considering how they all came off like great, well-intending people in MGS3 (previous poster mentioned how Zero strikes you as more trustworthy than the colonel ever did), they didn't turn out so well.

*edit: goddammit im just gonna let EmCeeGramr field these things :D

[StuBurns]

i dunno, man. Para-medic did some sick shit to Grey Fox, to make him the Ninja, if i recall correctly. MGS2/4 did much to paint the patriots as military-controllin', war-loving censor-bots. considering how they all came off like great, well-intending people in MGS3 (previous poster mentioned how Zero strikes you as more trustworthy than the colonel ever did), they didn't turn out so well. *edit: goddammit im just gonna let EmCeeGramr field these things :D

Some of those things aren't really the Patriots so much as the Patriot AIs which took their place. I'm not saying it's a good story, just that it didn't taint MGS3 for me at all, and maybe it won't for you if you fire it up again. Then again, I think MGS3 is the weakest of the four anyway.

[Ten-Song]

It's more akin to: After the ring is finally destroyed, we discover that Bilbo, in his younger days, actually created the ring, unaware of the evil and destruction it would bring upon the world. Then Gandalf, in his last dying breaths gives a long history lesson, comes up with some god awful wordplay and uses it to justify killing Bilbo just for the lols.

And also, Gollum was faking his being crazy for the ring the entire time.

Thats not evil. Clearly they are all just misunderstood.

Don't worry, a few (thousand) lines of ham-fisted melodramatic dialog will force sympathy for their characters.

[EmCeeGramr]

Step 1: "Snake, my interest in genetics is scientific curiosity only. I could never cross some of those ethical boundaries."

Step 2: ???

Step 3: "Alright, just gonna create eight cloned fetuses without the original man's knowledge, then terminate six of the embryos so the other two will grow up healthier, then I'll genetically modify them so they'll live a life of war, then finally I'll genetically sterilize them. Now to implant them into a surrogate, and when they're born we'll ship one off to a foster home and let the other one be raised by a dumbass mercenary who will abuse him emotionally. Then maybe we'll do it one more time before moving onto the army with horrible genetic diseases, and the dead man torture."

Step 4: KOJIMA CHARACTER WRITING!!