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charlequin
Faster, stronger, smarter and has a wife who plays more games than you
(06-21-2010, 03:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by neo2046

official
Nintendo 3DS uses DMP's PICA(R)200 chip
PR (no English version yet)
http://prw.kyodonews.jp/open/release.do?r=201006189844

(Thanks to neo2046 for bringing this information to our attention.)

PICA200 is an OpenGL ES1.1 chip featuring a set of proprietary extensions that enable a variety of features that one might normally implement via ES2.0 shaders through a fixed hardware pipeline.

The PICA200 scales with up to four pipelines and processes from up to four programmable vertex units. The 3D core, using their proprietary graphics technology named MAESTRO-2G, the second generation of the Maestro design, implements custom graphics algorithms as hardware for enabling a set of shading features that include per-vertex sub-surface scattering, bidirectional reflectance distribution function, cook-torrance, polygon subdivision, and soft shadowing. Their image post-processing module, the PICA-FBM frame buffer management, can polish the image with anti-aliasing and a set of other 2D functions and can actually be licensed independently as a core for 2D-only devices. In either case, the PICA-FBM can be extended with a PICA-VG vector graphics module.



http://www.videsignline.com/20100122...leArticle=true
AceBandage
Banned
(06-21-2010, 03:55 AM)
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Bah, quicker than I.

Anyway, good news.
Spiegel
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(06-21-2010, 03:55 AM)
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brain_stew
Hello friend! Have you heard the good news about Jesus PC gaming?
(06-21-2010, 03:56 AM)
Repost from the old thread:


I found it! :D

Slides are presented as images here:

http://journal.mycom.co.jp/photo/art...mages/003l.jpg

They're taken from this article (in Japanese) about the presentation:

http://journal.mycom.co.jp/articles/...h07/index.html

The more I read up, the more it seems like a pretty good fit for Nintendo. All those extra capabilities above and beyond the base OpenGL ES 1.1 just wouldn't be used by any other device as they'd just go with a standard OpenGL ES 1.1 driver to maintain compatibility. However since these features are hardwired it should be capable of the sort of efficiency Nintendo was looking for and as its already capable of most of the nice effects you'd get from a full OpenGL ES 2.0 in reality you're not losing too much if developers are able to directly exploit these features.

Since it takes so long to downlaod currently, I also hosted Futuremark's test/demo/benchmark of the hardware at Youtube, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A-xxUyJvQQ

The demo is pretty impressive, packed with normal and specular maps (as seen in many 3DS games already), sports some really nice soft shadowing (though its lacking self shadowing as seen in many 3DS games).

So our GAF detectives managed to figure out the mystery! :lol
carlo6529
Member
(06-21-2010, 03:57 AM)
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The PICA200 scales with up to four pipelines and processes from up to four programmable vertex units. The 3D core, using their proprietary graphics technology named MAESTRO-2G, the second generation of the Maestro design, implements custom graphics algorithms as hardware for enabling a set of shading features that include per-vertex sub-surface scattering, bidirectional reflectance distribution function, cook-torrance, polygon subdivision, and soft shadowing. Their image post-processing module, the PICA-FBM frame buffer management, can polish the image with anti-aliasing and a set of other 2D functions and can actually be licensed independently as a core for 2D-only devices. In either case, the PICA-FBM can be extended with a PICA-VG vector graphics module.

0_o ?

what does this mean?
Eteric Rice
Junior Member
(06-21-2010, 03:57 AM)
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Is it good?
ntropy
Member
(06-21-2010, 03:57 AM)
i frown while my wallet exhales.
GDGF
Soothsayer
(06-21-2010, 03:57 AM)
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I wonder if Polygon Offset has anything to do with the way it handles the stereo 3D.
Door2Dawn
Banned
(06-21-2010, 03:58 AM)
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I don't know much about all this techno mumbo jumbo, but this is pretty powerful hardware right?
charlequin
Faster, stronger, smarter and has a wife who plays more games than you
(06-21-2010, 03:58 AM)
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So, looking at the details of this chip, it's a completely unsurprising fit with how Nintendo do things: it implements a variety of fairly modern effects directly via a fixed pipeline instead of allowing full programmable shaders, which in turn means it can deliver some significant portion of the graphical output of an ES2.0 chip but with noticeably lower power consumption.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
(06-21-2010, 03:58 AM)
For the technically challenged.... is this a good GPU?
GDGF
Soothsayer
(06-21-2010, 03:58 AM)
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I would also like to know how this compares to TEV.

(the shader functions I mean)
Boney
Sucking and blowing™
(06-21-2010, 03:59 AM)
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Coming from the other thread.

Techical mumbo jumbo makes my head hurt. But I love it!
AceBandage
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(06-21-2010, 03:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by ntropy

i frown while my wallet exhales.


It's not "top of the line", but it's still an awesome GPU.

Originally Posted by GDGF

I would also like to know how this compares to TEV.

(the shader functions I mean)

Well, developers will actually want to use this, unlike TEV.
:lol
A Twisty Fluken
Member
(06-21-2010, 03:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by charlequin

So, looking at the details of this chip, it's a completely unsurprising fit with how Nintendo do things: it implements a variety of fairly modern effects directly via a fixed pipeline instead of allowing full programmable shaders, which in turn means it can deliver some significant portion of the graphical output of an ES2.0 chip but with noticeably lower power consumption.

So, work smarter, not harder :D

Nice job, sleuths.
markot
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(06-21-2010, 04:00 AM)
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Nice ^_^
The Hermit
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(06-21-2010, 04:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Eteric Rice

Is it good?

Originally Posted by carlo6529

0_o ?

what does this mean?

Originally Posted by Door2Dawn

I don't know much about all this techno mumbo jumbo, but this is pretty powerful hardware right?

Originally Posted by quadriplegicjon

For the technically challenged.... is this a good GPU?

:lol :lol Now I don't feel so bad for having no idea what that means...

BTW, that has to be the worst demo I've have ever seen...
DonMigs85
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(06-21-2010, 04:01 AM)
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Other than shader abilities it looks like it's pretty in line with what the GCN can do, except for trilinear or anisotropic filtering.
dallow_bg
nods at old men
(06-21-2010, 04:01 AM)
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That video looked like mid PSX era CG.
Dreams-Visions
I'm mad as hell but this sandwich is delicious
(06-21-2010, 04:02 AM)
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so the inevitable "dumb it down" question: how does it compare to console hardware from last generation? Dreamcast/PS2/Xbox/GameCube?

is it in the ballpark?
Quasar
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(06-21-2010, 04:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by quadriplegicjon

For the technically challenged.... is this a good GPU?

I'm wondering that too. How it compares to the Tegra 2 in terms of graphics.
gimmmick
Member
(06-21-2010, 04:02 AM)
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Cliff notes version please?
Lonely1
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(06-21-2010, 04:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by DonMigs85

Other than shader abilities it looks like it's pretty in line with what the GCN can do, except for trilinear or anisotropic filtering.

Well, that "other" and "except" stuff is kinda a big difference.
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(06-21-2010, 04:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by dallow_bg

That video looked like mid PSX era CG.

That's what happens when you have programmers handling art direction. :lol
DonMigs85
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(06-21-2010, 04:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dreams-Visions

so the inevitable "dumb it down" question: how does it compare to console hardware from last generation? Dreamcast/PS2/Xbox/GameCube?

is it in the ballpark?

We'll need to know what clockspeed the version in 3DS runs at.
charlequin
Faster, stronger, smarter and has a wife who plays more games than you
(06-21-2010, 04:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by brain_stew

I found it! :D

Yeah, good job with that. :D

Originally Posted by quadriplegicjon

For the technically challenged.... is this a good GPU?

It ought to be capable of most modern 3D "effects" and to be able to push a decent amount of power, but it's dependent on what specifically they went with. "PICA200" isn't a specific GPU, it's a line/group of GPUs with a specific architecture, so the details of the exact throughput are still not known to us, I believe.

Originally Posted by GDGF

I would also like to know how this compares to TEV.

(the shader functions I mean)

If I understand correctly, it should be a lot more developer-friendly, at least. TEV was pretty powerful but required you to understand a unique way of setting up and programming your effects that wasn't used anywhere else (which meant most people didn't bother.) This is sort of the opposite; it pre-defines most of the effects you'd ever want to use for you and you just activate them via the provided API (but at a loss of flexibility -- you can't create your own unique pixel-shader effects.)
HAL_Laboratory
(06-21-2010, 04:03 AM)
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A smart move. It's economical but obviously very capable.
Quadrangulum
Member
(06-21-2010, 04:03 AM)
This must be quite a coup for DMP.
ILikeFeet
Banned
(06-21-2010, 04:03 AM)

Originally Posted by charlequin

So, looking at the details of this chip, it's a completely unsurprising fit with how Nintendo do things: it implements a variety of fairly modern effects directly via a fixed pipeline instead of allowing full programmable shaders, which in turn means it can deliver some significant portion of the graphical output of an ES2.0 chip but with noticeably lower power consumption.

so it's a lot like TEV but better?

EDIT: nvm, question answered above
Lonely1
Junior Member
(06-21-2010, 04:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by dallow_bg

That video looked like mid PSX era CG.

Well, It's FutureMark...
Dreams-Visions
I'm mad as hell but this sandwich is delicious
(06-21-2010, 04:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by DonMigs85

We'll need to know what clockspeed the version in 3DS runs at.

ah. understood.
GDGF
Soothsayer
(06-21-2010, 04:05 AM)
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Yeah, that does sound a lot more user friendly than TEV. This is going to be a sweet piece of kit.
brain_stew
Hello friend! Have you heard the good news about Jesus PC gaming?
(06-21-2010, 04:05 AM)
Leaves with sub surface scattering, from that demo:

markot
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(06-21-2010, 04:05 AM)
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I hope it gets nice battery life. 10hour min >_<!
Bizzyb
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(06-21-2010, 04:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by DonMigs85

Other than shader abilities it looks like it's pretty in line with what the GCN can do, except for trilinear or anisotropic filtering.


The hell?

I'm tech-illiterate.
charlequin
Faster, stronger, smarter and has a wife who plays more games than you
(06-21-2010, 04:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by ILikeFeet

so it's a lot like TEV but better?

Well, the difference is that TEV is more flexible theoretically but a pain in the ass to use, whereas this isn't particularly flexible at all but it should be extremely easy for devs to take advantage of.

Originally Posted by markot

I hope it gets nice battery life. 10hour min >_<!

Let me put it this way: this is, as best as I understand, probably about the best choice (from a graphical-power perspective) Nintendo could have made if their first priority was to maintain a good battery life.
trinest
(06-21-2010, 04:06 AM)
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So this can answer the question- is the 3DS a Game Cube, Wii or PS3 or something more?
Boney
Sucking and blowing™
(06-21-2010, 04:06 AM)
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So 3DS < $200?
WillyFive
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(06-21-2010, 04:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by trinest

So this can answer the question- is the 3DS a Game Cube, Wii or PS3 or something more?

I'm not going to pretend I fully understand this, but it seems like last gen graphics with current gen shaders.
brain_stew
Hello friend! Have you heard the good news about Jesus PC gaming?
(06-21-2010, 04:07 AM)
If you want to see what sort of effects you can expect from the chip, watch this Youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A-xxUyJvQQ
AceBandage
Banned
(06-21-2010, 04:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by trinest

So this can answer the question- is the 3DS a Game Cube, Wii or PS3 or something more?

Below GC, above DC, but with modern shaders.
HAL_Laboratory
(06-21-2010, 04:08 AM)
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I would assume that because of PICA200's relative affordability (and age), Nintendo went with a premium or otherwise enhanced version of the chip.
DonMigs85
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(06-21-2010, 04:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by charlequin

Yeah, good job with that. :D



It ought to be capable of most modern 3D "effects" and to be able to push a decent amount of power, but it's dependent on what specifically they went with. "PICA200" isn't a specific GPU, it's a line/group of GPUs with a specific architecture, so the details of the exact throughput are still not known to us, I believe.



If I understand correctly, it should be a lot more developer-friendly, at least. TEV was pretty powerful but required you to understand a unique way of setting up and programming your effects that wasn't used anywhere else (which meant most people didn't bother.) This is sort of the opposite; it pre-defines most of the effects you'd ever want to use for you and you just activate them via the provided API (but at a loss of flexibility -- you can't create your own unique pixel-shader effects.)

I wonder which games made use of TEV best... My guess is the two Rogue Squadrons, FF Crystal Chronicles, Star Fox Adventures and perhaps Pikmin 1/2 as well. I believe Renderware used it well in some games too.
charlequin
Faster, stronger, smarter and has a wife who plays more games than you
(06-21-2010, 04:09 AM)
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brain_stew, any thoughts as to the polygon-pushing potential of this chip family and where it might range in comparison to other devices? We are rapidly depleting my ability to meaningfully apply my meager knowledge of graphics hardware to answering questions about this thing. :lol
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
(06-21-2010, 04:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by DonMigs85

We'll need to know what clockspeed the version in 3DS runs at.

Knowing how much video memory and total memory along with cache sizes will also help a great deal in knowing what the 3DS can do performance wise. High clock-speed alone won't matter if there are severe bottlenecks elsewhere.
DonMigs85
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(06-21-2010, 04:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Bizzyb

The hell?

I'm tech-illiterate.

If you have Half-Life 2 or Quake 3/4 on PC, toggle the texture filtering options to see the diff.
duk
Banned
(06-21-2010, 04:10 AM)
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no self shadowing?
DR2K
Doesn't buy fighting games to actually play them
(06-21-2010, 04:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Boney

So 3DS < $200?

It seems like it.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
(06-21-2010, 04:11 AM)
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Out of curiosity why is Nintendo always so coy about revealing detailed spec sheets? Are they afraid Sony is going to gank their shit?
Ezduo
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(06-21-2010, 04:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by DR2K

It seems like it.

Sweet.

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