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EviLore
Expansive Ellipses
(08-25-2010, 03:11 PM)
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via RPS


Brad Wardell, CEO of Stardock, August 29th, 2008
http://www.next-gen.biz/blogs/the-gamers-bill-rights

Originally Posted by Brad Wardell

Just like humanity in general, PC gamers are entitled to basic liberties: freedom to return computer games that don't work (for a full refund); minimum requirements that are actually accurate; to not be treated as a criminal by game companies, and so forth.

To uphold these rights, Stardock and Gas Powered Games decided to put together the Gamer's Bill of Rights, which we present before you today. These are the key elements that publishers need to adhere to in their games; they're all pretty common sense, but they're things that the game industry is increasingly straying from. We admit that many developers are at the mercy of their publishers, but our goal, if we get enough industry support on this, is to create a consortium that upholds the following basic standards for PC games:

We the Gamers of the world, in order to ensure a more enjoyable experience, establish equality between players and publishers, and promote the general welfare of our industry hereby call for the following:


1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
2. Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
3. Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
4. Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
5. Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer.
6. Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent.
7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
8. Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
9. Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
10. Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

now:


PC Gamer: "Elemental’s disastrous launch: stay well away"

Originally Posted by Brad Wardell

...to anyone, like you Ben, saying the game is like an "early beta" then well, please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don't buy our games.

GhaleonQ
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:12 PM)
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Brad Wardell is 1 of the few businessmen/developers whom I respect in the industry. *sad face*
piratepwnsninja
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

Brad Wardell is 1 of the few businessmen/developers whom I used to respect in the industry. *sad face*

Fixed...at least for me now. :(
BeeDog
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

Brad Wardell was 1 of the few businessmen/developers whom I respected in the industry. *sad face*

Fixed?

EDIT: lol-beaten.

Pretty awful stance Wardell has, that's for sure.
syllogism
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:18 PM)
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Pretty sure RPS is wrong and the "bill of rights" is where it has been for a quite a while: http://www.gamersbillofrights.com/

DNS Servers: DNS.STARDOCK.COM DNS2.STARDOCK.COM DNS3.STARDOCK.COM
Joseph Merrick
#2 Tingle Fan
(right after Beezy)
(08-25-2010, 03:18 PM)
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didn't they remove it from there quite a while ago?

edit:

Originally Posted by syllogism

Pretty sure RPS is wrong and the "bill of rights" is where it has been for a quite a while: http://www.gamersbillofrights.com/

DNS Servers: DNS.STARDOCK.COM DNS2.STARDOCK.COM DNS3.STARDOCK.COM

oh ok.
Last edited by Joseph Merrick; 08-25-2010 at 03:21 PM.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(08-25-2010, 03:19 PM)
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heh, I thought they'd delete it after their fiasco with Demigod when 18 000 people bought the game and 120 000 people "tried" it on the release day.
graywolf323
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:19 PM)
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I rather regret preordering the game based on everything I've read now at launch (had a 20% off coupon on Impulse)

oh well live and learn
Interfectum
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:21 PM)
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Draft
(08-25-2010, 03:25 PM)
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It's understandable that they'd rush it out for the busy august shopping season.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
(08-25-2010, 03:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by syllogism

Pretty sure RPS is wrong and the "bill of rights" is where it has been for a quite a while: http://www.gamersbillofrights.com/

DNS Servers: DNS.STARDOCK.COM DNS2.STARDOCK.COM DNS3.STARDOCK.COM

Sure, and that would definitely cause this thread to be renamed, but I can't possibly reconcile this:
"Games shall have the right that games they purchase shall function as designed without technical defects that would materially affect the player experience. This determination shall be made by the player."

and this:
"Also, to anyone, like you Ben, saying the game is like an "early beta" then well, please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don't buy our games."

I haven't played Elemental (thought it wasn't out for another month or two actually) but it strikes me that Brad's response there is the exact kind of company response that the GBoR was written in response to.
Pureauthor
(08-25-2010, 03:25 PM)
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Well, that's nice.
syllogism
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stumpokapow

Sure, and that would definitely cause this thread to be renamed, but I can't possibly reconcile this:
"Games shall have the right that games they purchase shall function as designed without technical defects that would materially affect the player experience. This determination shall be made by the player."

and this:
"Also, to anyone, like you Ben, saying the game is like an "early beta" then well, please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don't buy our games."

I haven't played Elemental (thought it wasn't out for another month or two actually) but it strikes me that Brad's response there is the exact kind of company response that the GBoR was written in response to.

Certainly, though there's also this

http://forums.elementalgame.com/391978/page/5/#2728865


Originally Posted by Brad, August 24, 2010 11:14:55 PM, in response to a refund request

Email sales@stardock.com. Tell them I sent you.

It's item #1 in the Gamer's Bill of Rights:

http://www.gamersbillofrights.org/

Elemental is a finished game. You don't agree. Item #1 on the GBOR states you can get a refund. Because item #2 states that it is the GAMER that determines whether the game is done, not the publisher. We don't agree, but item #2 states that it is the gamer. Therefore, you can get a refund.

I'm not sure what you are looking for? I think the game is very good and complete. You don't. What else is there?

dionysus
Yaldog
(08-25-2010, 03:28 PM)
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I am sure I will pick it up eventually. Haven't played Elemental so I can't speak to how buggy and unbalanced it is, but this is pretty much par for the course when it comes to strategy games. They always get much much better as time goes on as patches and expansions are released. Paradox has the same problems on day 1 with their strategy games, and I consider them the best strategy game developer in the world.

However, SD promised to be better than that with the GBoR, but I guess it was naivette to believe that they could rise above the market forces that determine early releases.
Last edited by dionysus; 08-25-2010 at 03:32 PM.
EviLore
Expansive Ellipses
(08-25-2010, 03:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

heh, I thought they'd delete it after their fiasco with Demigod when 18 000 people bought the game and 120 000 people "tried" it on the release date.

The multiplayer still wasn't very functional a month after release, when I unfortunately picked it up with the half-price apology coupon that Teknopathetic gave me (he got Demigod at launch). We tried for a very long time to get a full GAF match going, but the more people we had the less the game wanted to work, and we never were able to get it working properly with more than a couple people.
Zenith
Banned
(08-25-2010, 03:30 PM)
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They’re not even apologetic: CEO Brad Wardell says on the game’s site that they’re “definitely glad” people played the pre-patch version because of all the useful crash reports they got. Wanting customers to encounter crashes so that they can be fixed is pretty much the definition of a paid beta test. The game did launch a day earlier than expected due to retailers breaking the street date, but that doesn’t affect the quality of the code in the box. And it shouldn’t have been a surprise: exactly the same thing happened with the last game Stardock published, Demigod.

time to write off Stardock.
Cru Jones
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:34 PM)

Originally Posted by Zenith

time to write off Stardock.

That is out of context, the context was that it was a silver lining to a broken street date.

Edit: Also, the title is SOOOO misleading. It no longer is appearing on their site. They are still hosting it at the gamersbillofrights.com website on stardock servers. I'd like to request a title change as misleading titles is not the way of NeoGaf.
Last edited by Cru Jones; 08-25-2010 at 03:39 PM.
dionysus
Yaldog
(08-25-2010, 03:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zenith

time to write off Stardock.

Just don't buy day 1 for SD games, doesn't mean you should write off the game if it gets fixed and awesome 6 months from now.
Last edited by dionysus; 08-25-2010 at 03:45 PM.
Hari Seldon
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:43 PM)
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They wanted to rush this game out to beat Civ 5 to market. Sadly, I like Stardock but I'm going to wait until maybe the holidays to pick this game up, if I remember it.
Gravijah
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:45 PM)
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Can someone give me the rundown of what exactly is going on here?
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(08-25-2010, 03:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by EviLore

The multiplayer still wasn't very functional a month after release, when I unfortunately picked it up with the half-price apology coupon that Teknopathetic gave me (he got Demigod at launch). We tried for a very long time to get a full GAF match going, but the more people we had the less the game wanted to work, and we never were able to get it working properly with more than a couple people.

this is just embarassing. No PC indie game comes perfect on the release date but most devs are able to sort out most issues in about 3-4 weeks time. They should take lessons from Tripwire on how to launch games properly. Killing Floor had its problems but it was playable from the start and patches were quick.

And now they even say that it's good that people who bought their game are basically beta testers. Last time shit like that happened when Clear Sky was released in CIS countries in unplayable state ahead of international release. The game had a lot of bugs that stopped you from completing it. But GSC learned their lesson well, while Stardock didn't as it seems.
graywolf323
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by syllogism

Certainly, though there's also this

http://forums.elementalgame.com/391978/page/5/#2728865

hmm I might take them up on that refund offer...
Joseph Merrick
#2 Tingle Fan
(right after Beezy)
(08-25-2010, 03:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gravijah

Can someone give me the rundown of what exactly is going on here?

people realising they can just get a refund
John
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:50 PM)
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:/
Infinity
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:50 PM)
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Don't like Mr. Wardell's tone in his response - seems he's disregarding the lack of QA here, passing it off as acceptable, and is "definitely glad" that folks played the pre-patched version. Been seeing this more often where the pressure to go live outweighs what we as consumers expect in quality.

Sad, given that I was really looking forward to this giving me my MoM fix. Certainly doesn't mean that SD won't patch it up eventually, but I'm relieved I didn't make this a Day 1 purchase.

Will continue to keep my eyes on this one in the hopes that SD makes things right. But for now, /pass.
HamPster PamPster
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:53 PM)
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You all should have done what I did

Pass on the game and buy the book instead!

Its cheaper and comes in a higher resolution
Drkirby
Corporate Apologist
(08-25-2010, 03:54 PM)
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To be somewhat fair, #3. "Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release" doesn't jive well with me. A game doesn't have to have updates after its out. Its once thing to get bug fixes, but usually I just expect whats in the package when I get something.
Cru Jones
Member
(08-25-2010, 03:58 PM)

Originally Posted by subversus

this is just embarassing. No PC indie game comes perfect on the release date but most devs are able to sort out most issues in about 3-4 weeks time. They should take lessons from Tripwire on how to launch games properly. Killing Floor had its problems but it was playable from the start and patches were quick.

And now they even say that it's good that people who bought their game are basically beta testers. Last time shit like that happened when Clear Sky was released in CIS countries in unplayable state ahead of international release. The game had a lot of bugs that stopped you from completing it. But GSC learned their lesson well, while Stardock didn't as it seems.

Do people even know what is going on with the release of this game? I feel like people are just chiming in without having followed anything that happened at all.

Here is a quick time line for you:

August 20th - retailers break street date
August 21st/22nd - Stardock asks their employees to come in on the weekend to in order to release the game early for those who purchased digitally
August 22nd – Stardock releases the “Gold” (this gold version is the one that is sent to stores – it is sent before it is in a completed state with the intention of releasing a “Day 0” patch which addresses bugs they were working on between the time where the game is printed and it’s release date) version to all those who beta tested and pre-ordered as to not punish those people who have been loyal followers of the game and helped to improve it.
August 24th – Official release day, and the day 0 patch is released which fixes many of the bugs and adds much of the polish that was lacking (and complained about) in the Gold version.

I personally think Stardock went above and beyond for its fanbase.
K.Jack
Knowledge is power, guard it well
(08-25-2010, 03:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gravijah

Can someone give me the rundown of what exactly is going on here?

Here's a quick summary; follow the links.
Chrange
Banned
(08-25-2010, 04:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cru Jones

That is out of context, the context was that it was a silver lining to a broken street date.

Edit: Also, the title is SOOOO misleading. It no longer is appearing on their site. They are still hosting it at the gamersbillofrights.com website on stardock servers. I'd like to request a title change as misleading titles is not the way of NeoGaf.

A broken street date didn't cause the bugs.
GitarooMan
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cru Jones

August 22nd – Stardock releases the “Gold” (this gold version is the one that is sent to stores – it is sent before it is in a completed state with the intention of releasing a “Day 0” patch which addresses bugs they were working on between the time where the game is printed and it’s release date) version to all those who beta tested and pre-ordered as to not punish those people who have been loyal followers of the game and helped to improve it.


I personally think Stardock went above and beyond for its fanbase.

Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure how it's going "above and beyond" to send a version to stores that is not in a completed state. I know it's not uncommon in PC games, but still...
dionysus
Yaldog
(08-25-2010, 04:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Do people even know what is going on with the release of this game? I feel like people are just chiming in without having followed anything that happened at all.

Here is a quick time line for you:

August 20th - retailers break street date
August 21st/22nd - Stardock asks their employees to come in on the weekend to in order to release the game early for those who purchased digitally
August 22nd – Stardock releases the “Gold” (this gold version is the one that is sent to stores – it is sent before it is in a completed state with the intention of releasing a “Day 0” patch which addresses bugs they were working on between the time where the game is printed and it’s release date) version to all those who beta tested and pre-ordered as to not punish those people who have been loyal followers of the game and helped to improve it.
August 24th – Official release day, and the day 0 patch is released which fixes many of the bugs and adds much of the polish that was lacking (and complained about) in the Gold version.

I personally think Stardock went above and beyond for its fanbase.

So does the controversy go away with the day 0 patch or is it still broken?
arstal
Whine Whine FADC Troll
(08-25-2010, 04:04 PM)
This article needs to be changed to RPS does a hatchet job on Stardock. the GBR is still up, and the reason it was down was due to a forum error.


The Brad Wardell comment you're referring to-he's getting his inner Sirlin on.

That said, he was dealing with a troll in my eyes.
Hari Seldon
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:05 PM)
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According to that PC Gamer article linked in the OP the day 0 didn't fix enough.
Cru Jones
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:06 PM)

Originally Posted by GitarooMan

Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure how it's going "above and beyond" to send a version to stores that is not in a completed state. I know it's not uncommon in PC games, but still...

It is the reality. It has been mentioned before, but there are few windows for independently published games to get floor space as retail (especially PC games). I believe Stardock said it was either now, or wait until February.

If the street date wasn't broken, the patch would have been available for the first person who installed the game on August 24th. They made the best of a bad situation that was out of their control and were loyal to their fanbase who had pre-ordered their game. In my books, that is definitely going above and beyond.
Zenith
Banned
(08-25-2010, 04:06 PM)
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Oh, sick, I never knew how much of a right-wing zealot the guy was.

http://draginol.joeuser.com/category/3/Politics

His blog^. Anti-healthcare, anti-climate change, anti-secularisation, anti-gun control, anti-union, anti-market regulation, anti-tax

By contrast, as the guy originally grasps but then forgets later in his own comment, if you send your child to private school or buy private health care you still are stuck having to pay for other people’s healthcare. That’s socialism.

On "climategate":

Years ago I wrote “What if global warming zealots are wrong?”

Will they apologize?

Will they feel any shame for all the bile and nastiness they heaped on those who were merely skeptical?

In the past couple of years, the evidence in favor of manmade global climate change has not worked out so well for the zealots.

He even argues against "good-will to man" saying it breeds laziness. He goes on an Ayn Rand rant about 2 types of people in America: "Producers" and "Takers":

But don’t forget, if you object to the unlimited looting of your labor, you’re just selfish and greedy.

http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/...and_the_takers

This is typically seen with the American left who gleefully hope for higher taxes on corporations and "the rich". The problem is, those two groups tend to be the people who "do stuff".

http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/...that_feeds_you

Did he love or hate Bioshock? He literally equates taxation with slavery.

Once he even likened Obama's campaign methods to Hitler's and said he was creeped out by it.

And before people say his politics won't affect Stardock, he had Stardock boycott UPS because UPS boycotted Glenn Beck's show. He used the same "don't like it, don't watch it [buy it]" argument from the OP quotes when people pointed out all the misinformation Fox spreads.

Don't you understand? All those people complaining about Elemental are lazy Takers, living off the fat of enterpreneurs like Brad. They should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and pay 3rd parties to code patches for them. Free-market! Vote with your coin!
Last edited by Zenith; 08-25-2010 at 04:10 PM.
arstal
Whine Whine FADC Troll
(08-25-2010, 04:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Hari Seldon

According to that PC Gamer article linked in the OP the day 0 didn't fix enough.

I have the game, even though the day 0 patch doesn't come close to fixing everything, the game is very good, in its current state.

Stardock will fix things over time. I have full faith, that has been earned from previous releases.
dionysus
Yaldog
(08-25-2010, 04:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by arstal

I have the game, even though the day 0 patch doesn't come close to fixing everything, the game is very good, in its current state.

Stardock will fix things over time. I have full faith, that has been earned from previous releases.

Demigod took a good long while to get to a playable state, even though I loved the game.
Cru Jones
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:10 PM)

Originally Posted by dionysus

So does the controversy go away with the day 0 patch or is it still broken?

Not everything is fixed, but it is definitely in a more than playable state. The time line was in response to this comment

Originally Posted by subversus

this is just embarassing. No PC indie game comes perfect on the release date but most devs are able to sort out most issues in about 3-4 weeks time. They should take lessons from Tripwire on how to launch games properly. Killing Floor had its problems but it was playable from the start and patches were quick.

And now they even say that it's good that people who bought their game are basically beta testers. Last time shit like that happened when Clear Sky was released in CIS countries in unplayable state ahead of international release. The game had a lot of bugs that stopped you from completing it. But GSC learned their lesson well, while Stardock didn't as it seems.

What subversus is suggesting they do is exactly what they are doing, so I don't see what he is complaining about.
Vince McMahon
Banned
(08-25-2010, 04:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zenith

Oh, sick, I never knew how much of a right-wing zealot the guy was.

http://draginol.joeuser.com/category/3/Politics

Well if this changes how fun the game is, then it matters. Does it?
Deadly
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:12 PM)

Originally Posted by EviLore

The multiplayer still wasn't very functional a month after release, when I unfortunately picked it up with the half-price apology coupon that Teknopathetic gave me (he got Demigod at launch). We tried for a very long time to get a full GAF match going, but the more people we had the less the game wanted to work, and we never were able to get it working properly with more than a couple people.

I went for the same thing too. Knowing that we could get a refund, I probably would have gotten it. Not to be a cheapass or anything but that game could barely function...
TouchMyBox
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:12 PM)
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I bought it way back when with that 20% coupon. I've yet to play it though since I have zero time at the moment. You people are saying that this game is unplayable or what?
graywolf323
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zenith

Oh, sick, I never knew how much of a right-wing zealot the guy was.

http://draginol.joeuser.com/category/3/Politics

are you one of those people that boycotted Whole Foods when their CEO came out against Obama's healthcare plan?
Cru Jones
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Zenith

Political Rant

This has nothing to do with anything we are discussing, congratulations on adding nothing to the topic at hand.
PoweredBySoy
Banned
(08-25-2010, 04:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Zenith

Oh, sick, I never knew how much of a right-wing zealot the guy was.

lol. Who is that?

(links won't load at work)
arstal
Whine Whine FADC Troll
(08-25-2010, 04:15 PM)

Originally Posted by TouchMyBox

I bought it way back when with that 20% coupon. I've yet to play it though since I have zero time at the moment. You people are saying that this game is unplayable or what?

Elemental , in its current state, is playable, though it has some serious bugs.

Most TBS games at launch are about this buggy, except for Civ games, but even those are fairly buggy at launch also.

BTW I don't agree with Brad Wardell's politics either, but I don't care about that- and he does treat his employees ethically (I've heard plenty of praise for that)
Joseph Merrick
#2 Tingle Fan
(right after Beezy)
(08-25-2010, 04:17 PM)
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hehe I should do another joke thread against wardell sometime. omg politics
GhaleonQ
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zenith

Oh, sick, I never knew how much of a right-wing zealot the guy was.

You're the worst kind of person.

*is conservative, though not libertarian* *is certain that you're an ass*
TouchMyBox
Member
(08-25-2010, 04:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by arstal

Elemental , in its current state, is playable, though it has some serious bugs.

Most TBS games at launch are about this buggy, except for Civ games, but even those are fairly buggy at launch also.

Sounds pretty much like 80% of games released these days. So long as they patch it within a timely manner, it doesn't bother me much.
Zenith
Banned
(08-25-2010, 04:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sunflower

Well if this changes how fun the game is, then it matters. Does it?

It sheds light on the type of person the guy who made the quotes up top is and makes me wonder if I want my money going to his company.

are you one of those people that boycotted Whole Foods when their CEO came out against Obama's healthcare plan?

Who the eff are they? And I skip Will Wright games based on his contributions to Giuliani.

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