[WanderingWind]

The idea of BU/BL zombies is possible,but what about dual lands. or should i just stick with plain islands and swamps.

As a zombie deck lover, I say to you...stay away from them in Standard right now. They were really great until AVR, but a very large percentage of AVR stuff is 100% pure, unadulterated zombie hate. It's not even funny how badly they suck in standard.

If you're playing legacy or casual, then have fun! And yeah, the dual lands like Darkslick Shores are really useful because a lot of the good zombies require dual black.

[TheSeks]

Well, just had a see-saw battle with Jace starting from 40-20 life respectively. Ended up winning after putting two "The Racks" into play along with a Megrim. Then I destroyed his board (and his possessing my 5/5 creature) with a Wrath of God but only on their end spell and came back to win. Pretty intense.

[Lucario]

As a zombie deck lover, I say to you...stay away from them in Standard right now. They were really great until AVR, but a very large percentage of AVR stuff is 100% pure, unadulterated zombie hate. It's not even funny how badly they suck in standard. If you're playing legacy or casual, then have fun! And yeah, the dual lands like Darkslick Shores are really useful because a lot of the good zombies require dual black.

Aside from Pillar of Flame, what Standard playable zombie hate was printed in AVR?


.... although, honestly, pillar was enough =\ Still, even if I'd never bring the deck to a GP qualifier, zombies are good enough to sweep unprepared FNMs.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Aside from Pillar of Flame, what Standard playable zombie hate was printed in AVR? .... although, honestly, pillar was enough =\ Still, even if I'd never bring the deck to a GP qualifier, zombies are good enough to sweep unprepared FNMs.

I get the same feeling, I think no one has sideboard for zombie hate anymore unless it is prevalent at your specific shop.

[Lucario]

I get the same feeling, I think no one has sideboard for zombie hate anymore unless it is prevalent at your specific shop.

Yeah. It's such a diverse format that it's impossible to properly prepare for every deck. If it weren't for Ancient Grudge being necessary in sideboards thanks to swords and such, I'd bet we'd even see Tempered Steel coming back to surprise people.

I honestly don't see room in my sideboards to run a full playset of Pillar of Flame. You'd have to have a seriously bad matchup against zombies to consider that.


That said, I'm playing Naya Pod. ^.^

[Sinatar]

The only real zombie hate is pillar, angel of glories rise (which is too expensive to see a whole lot of play) and that garbage green soulbond guy that nobody is ever going to play in any format ever.

Zombies are fine.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Yeah. It's such a diverse format that it's impossible to properly prepare for every deck. If it weren't for Ancient Grudge being necessary in sideboards thanks to swords and such, I'd bet we'd even see Tempered Steel coming back to surprise people. I honestly don't see room in my sideboards to run a full playset of Pillar of Flame. You'd have to have a seriously bad matchup against zombies to consider that. That said, I'm playing Naya Pod. ^.^

Tempersteel wrecked at the last friday night magic I went to because no one had the sideboard. You really just have to let things die until no one is using it and then it can sweep pretty hard.

Why does fiend hunter with peel make it exile permanently? Is it because of the stack? Like it removes and comes back before the return ability triggers? So it exiles but it's too late to bring it back by the time that hits the stack?

[zerokoolpsx]

Why does fiend hunter with peel make it exile permanently? Is it because of the stack? Like it removes and comes back before the return ability triggers? So it exiles but it's too late to bring it back by the time that hits the stack?

Not sure why either, but I seen people O-ring something, counter their O-ring so it gets exiled. I'm not sure of the logic behind it.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Not sure why either, but I seen people O-ring something, counter their O-ring so it gets exiled. I'm not sure of the logic behind it.

That definitely wouldn't work. If you actually counter it then it never comes to activate to exile something initially. Countering definitely can't permanently exile something.

[WanderingWind]

Well, I've been playing zombies pretty much exclusively and playtesting has shown these to be of particular issue

Terminus - Gravecrawler removal, stops Messanger from being useful.
Angel of Jubilation - Stops Mortarpod/Messenger/Gravecrawler/Captain combos dead.
Angel of Glory's Rise - Very castable in green white and humans are ubiquitous enough where people will play this regardless.
Holy Justicar - Auto zombie exiles?
Pillar - Dead horse beating on this one.
Diregraf Escort - It's a one drop that soulbonds into protection from zombies.

In return, zombies got
Scrapskin Drake - Pretty awesome to have a flying zombie with no downside.

[Lucario]

Well, I've been playing zombies pretty much exclusively and playtesting has shown these to be of particular issue Terminus - Gravecrawler removal, stops Messanger from being useful. Angel of Jubilation - Stops Mortarpod/Messenger/Gravecrawler/Captain combos dead. Angel of Glory's Rise - Very castable in green white and humans are ubiquitous enough where people will play this regardless. Holy Justicar - Auto zombie exiles? Pillar - Dead horse beating on this one. Diregraf Escort - It's a one drop that soulbonds into protection from zombies. In return, zombies got Scrapskin Drake - Pretty awesome to have a flying zombie with no downside.

A well-built zombie deck should have no problem with anything there except a miracled terminus or pillar. Your opponent should be pretty much dead before Angel of Glory's Rise is cast (which is too narrow to see even sideboard play). What's your list?

...also, has anyone ever actually cast a Holy Justicar or Diregraf Escort in a tournament? My reaction to either would be "neat, I got a bye!"

[WanderingWind]

A well-built zombie deck should have a player dead -well- before Angel of Glory's Rise can hit the field, except in the case of a dedicated ramp deck.

That's what people have been saying about every drop over 5. Except they still happen all the time, and G/W humans is coming out the gate as a very popular deck.

If zombies are still around in anything beside outliers decks, I'll be happy to eat my words. But early results show there are too many cards specifically tuned to get rid of zombies and their way of doing things.

[Lucario]

That's what people have been saying about every drop over 5. Except they still happen all the time, and G/W humans is coming out the gate as a very popular deck. If zombies are still around in anything beside outliers decks, I'll be happy to eat my words. But early results show there are too many cards specifically tuned to get rid of zombies and their way of doing things.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_s...20of%205/14/12

Almost all of this is post-AVR, which was made standard legal last thursday on MTGO IIRC. Aside from major tournaments, MTGO is the most competitive metagame there is. It's still a very real deck, and none of those sideboard options see any play aside from Pillar.

EDIT: Waiiit, most of those are still DKA standard. It still won a couple Open qualifiers and got at least one top 32 in the open, lemme just find decklists. Either way, the slight loss of relevance (none of which matters at an FNM level of competition) is due to a combination of RG aggro and wolf-run improving vastly and pillar of flame being printed; not the other sideboard options, which I can't find a single instance of.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

That's what people have been saying about every drop over 5. Except they still happen all the time, and G/W humans is coming out the gate as a very popular deck. If zombies are still around in anything beside outliers decks, I'll be happy to eat my words. But early results show there are too many cards specifically tuned to get rid of zombies and their way of doing things.

G/W humans would never use those cards though is what he's saying. They're way to narrow focused to be something that is going to be a serious contender in a deck.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_s...20of%205/14/12 Almost all of this is post-AVR, which was made standard legal last thursday on MTGO IIRC. Aside from major tournaments, MTGO is the most competitive metagame there is. It's still a very real deck, and none of those sideboard options see any play aside from Pillar. EDIT: Waiiit, most of those are still DKA standard. It still won a couple Open qualifiers and got at least one top 32 in the open, lemme just find decklists. Either way, the slight loss of relevance (none of which matters at an FNM level of competition) is due to a combination of RG aggro and wolf-run improving vastly and pillar of flame being printed; not the other sideboard options, which I can't find a single instance of.

What's the big addition to R/G besides bonfire?

[Lucario]

What's the big addition to R/G besides bonfire?

Wolfir Avenger -- Flash is relevant post board wipe, and you can mash creatures into it all day.... Not to mention a respectible whipflare-proof body
Wolfir Silverheart -- IT MAKES THINGS BIG. UW is still powerful, but delver being less prevalent means less copies of vapor snag... Which means this card is fairly safe as a 1-2 of maindeck. It can blow out games.
Pillar of Flame -- ends the exceptionally awkward zombie matchup
Zealous Conscripts -- TERRIFIES wolf-run players, to the point that some will hold back on casting titans if they suspect you're holding one.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=46253

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Wolfir Avenger -- Flash is relevant post board wipe, and you can mash creatures into it all day.... Not to mention a respectible whipflare-proof body Wolfir Silverheart -- IT MAKES THINGS BIG. UW is still powerful, but delver being less prevalent means less copies of vapor snag... Which means this card is fairly safe as a 1-2 of maindeck. It can blow out games. Pillar of Flame -- ends the exceptionally awkward zombie matchup Zealous Conscripts -- TERRIFIES wolf-run players, to the point that some will hold back on casting titans if they suspect you're holding one. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=46253

Ah, didn't realize anything was using silver heart. I figured it was too slow. And ya, conscripts and wolfir are amazing.

[zerokoolpsx]

Activate my fiend hunter's second ability first "when it leaves the battlefield" when I use cloudshift so it does not actually have a target creature to return and then when it returns activate its first ability so I permanently exile the targeted creature. That's how people do it.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Activate my fiend hunter's second ability first "when it leaves the battlefield" when I use cloudshift so it does not actually have a target creature to return and then when it returns activate its first ability so I permanently exile the targeted creature. That's how people do it.

I don't understand, could you explain that more. Does that mean you didn't return a creature initially? They said they would exile a creature, flicker it and then the first is exiled and then temporarily exile another. How does it not have a target when it leaves?

Edit: Ya, I was right it's the stack. You're not activating anything first. Before the returning resolves the other effect of entering activates then the second ability of leaving the battlefield resolves then choosing a target does.

[zerokoolpsx]

I don't understand, could you explain that more. Does that mean you didn't return a creature initially? They said they would exile a creature, flicker it and then the first is exiled and then temporarily exile another. How does it not have a target when it leaves?

I don't quite understand it myself. Got it from mtgsalvations.

You respond with Cloudshift, which does the following: Fiend Hunter is exiled - here, its second ability triggers, but that trigger doesn't go on the stack yet. Fiend Hunter returns to the battlefield - here, its first ability triggers again, but that trigger doesn't go on the stack yet. Now, since a spell has finished resolving and the active player would receive priority, state-based actions are checked (and there are none), so NOW abilities can go on the stack. Here, the controller can place the two abilities waiting to go on the stack in any order. In this particular case, that order is irrelevant---the Fiend Hunter's Leaves-the-battlefield ability will not do anything no matter when it resolves, because the triggered ability linked to it hasn't resolved yet (it's on the bottom of the stack, waiting patiently). So your proposed stack is one possibility: ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter But there is another possibility: LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter But like I said, in this particular case, both possibilities have the same outcome.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I don't quite understand it myself. Got it from mtgsalvations.

Ok, so think of it as two different creatures. It leaves so fiend hunter #1 leaving effect enters the stack. The enter for the "second" fiend hunter goes off and picks a creature. When fiend hunter #1's leave trigger resolves it's no longer targeting a creature since the creature linked to the fiend hunter is gone, and that fiend hunter is not there so it never comes back.

Edit: Wait, so do you have to do it as soon as you play it? That seems to be what all the examples are of. So if I do it say two turns after playing it, it wouldn't exile or it still would? All the examples I see are when you initially play it.

[zerokoolpsx]

Ok, so think of it as two different creatures. It leaves so fiend hunter #1 leaving effect enters the stack. The enter for the "second" fiend hunter goes off and picks a creature. When fiend hunter #1's leave trigger resolves it's no longer targeting a creature since the creature linked to the fiend hunter is gone, and that fiend hunter is not there so it never comes back.

Oh I get it. The fiend hunter is "like a new creature" and the LTB and ETB of the previous fiend hunter does nothing.

[echoshifting]

My play group hates that move so much I don't even bother with it. It is tantamount to cheating/exploitation in the eyes of some.

[Leunam]

I feel like I almost get what's going on here but I must be missing something. I'll have to re-read it tomorrrow. :)

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I feel like I almost get what's going on here but I must be missing something. I'll have to re-read it tomorrrow. :)

I just don't get why all examples are for as soon as he's played. Wouldn't it work regardless?

[echoshifting]

Edit: Wait, so do you have to do it as soon as you play it? That seems to be what all the examples are of. So if I do it say two turns after playing it, it wouldn't exile or it still would? All the examples I see are when you initially play it.

Correct, it only works if you do it as you are playing the Fiend Hunter. If the Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield before the ETB trigger can resolve, its LTB trigger has no target. Then it pops back in, you choose a second creature with the new ETB trigger. Both of your targets are exiled...the first one permanently.

This can't work if the first ETB trigger fully resolves before you blink the Fiend Hunter, so it only works as the Fiend Hunter is first entering play.

Here is the thread that helped me wrap my head around this one.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Correct, it only works if you do it as you are playing the Fiend Hunter. If the Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield before the ETB trigger can resolve, its LTB trigger has no target. Then it pops back in, you choose a second creature with the new ETB trigger. Both of your targets are exiled...the first one permanently. This can't work if the first ETB trigger fully resolves before you blink the Fiend Hunter, so it only works as the Fiend Hunter is first entering play. Here is the thread that helped me wrap my head around this one.

Ah, ok. And the angel works since it has flash.

Oh I get it. The fiend hunter is "like a new creature" and the LTB and ETB of the previous fiend hunter does nothing.

All you need to know is how the stack works so last added to stack resolves first so:

step 1: Fiend hunter enters, enter the battlefield effect goes on the stack
step 2: Before the ability resolves you blink it so the LTB goes on the stack for fiend 1
step 3: Enter for fiend 2 goes on stack
step 4: If that's it then stack starts to resolve so second fiend enter effect goes off goes x creature
step 5: Next on the stack was the LTB for fiend 1 which had nothing exiled so it just does nothing
step 6: Finally initial exile entering effect of fiend one resolves exiling y creature, since the LTB was already done for fiend 1 it can't come back. You also can't ever also permanently exile the second by doing this, once fiend leaves for any reason, blinking or otherwise, it's released.

Hope that explains it clearly.

[zerokoolpsx]

Correct, it only works if you do it as you are playing the Fiend Hunter. If the Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield before the ETB trigger can resolve, its LTB trigger has no target. Then it pops back in, you choose a second creature with the new ETB trigger. Both of your targets are exiled...the first one permanently. This can't work if the first ETB trigger fully resolves before you blink the Fiend Hunter, so it only works as the Fiend Hunter is first entering play. Here is the thread that helped me wrap my head around this one.

That explained it a lot.

Ah, ok. And the angel works since it has flash. All you need to know is how the stack works so last added to stack resolves first so: step 1: Fiend hunter enters, enter the battlefield effect goes on the stack step 2: Before the ability resolves you blink it so the LTB goes on the stack for fiend 1 step 3: Enter for fiend 2 goes on stack step 4: If that's it then stack starts to resolve so second fiend enter effect goes off goes x creature step 5: Next on the stack was the LTB for fiend 1 which had nothing exiled so it just does nothing step 6: Finally initial exile entering effect of fiend one resolves exiling y creature, since the LTB was already done for fiend 1 it can't come back. You also can't ever also permanently exile the second by doing this, once fiend leaves for any reason, blinking or otherwise, it's released. Hope that explains it clearly.

It does actually. Y creature is permanently exiled while X creature is temporarily exiled. LTB on first fiend hunter does nothing.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Nvm, I'm dumb.

[echoshifting]

It does actually to what? That's exactly what my post said.

-->

Hope that explains it clearly.

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

-->

Haha, I feel really dumb now.

[Crocodile]

I don't think these cards could be anymore BOSS. I wasn't too big on Planechase I but the spoilers so far for Planechase II have me pretty hyped!

[red_13th]

Okay, a DEMON NINJA. This is fucking awesome. Costly sure, but awesome.
Ink Eyes made me hate ninjutsu back in the day. Brings me back.

[The Technomancer]

Between this and Tamiyo I really think they want to revisit Kamigawa again. My guess is that we'll get Return to Ravnica - > Some new plane -> Kamigawa 2

[red_13th]

Hopefully they make it less, insular I think was the term they described Kamigawa? With mechanics that didn't play very well with other blocks, other than broken stuff like Jitte, Top, Gifts and Glimpse.
...wow, thinking of it, Kamigawa had some pretty ridiculous cards.

[OnPoint]

Between this and Tamiyo I really think they want to revisit Kamigawa again. My guess is that we'll get Return to Ravnica - > Some new plane -> Kamigawa 2

That's cool. I wouldn't mind a block where I might spend only a little money and still be happy, and if a Kamigawa sequel is anything like the original, that'll be the case.

[WanderingWind]

That's cool. I wouldn't mind a block where I might spend only a little money and still be happy, and if a Kamigawa sequel is anything like the original, that'll be the case.

Yeah, a Return to Kamigawa block would be easy on my wallet too, as I likely wouldn't buy anything from it.

[ultron87]

Poor Tidehollow Scrix, now no one will love you.

[Crocodile]

That's cool. I wouldn't mind a block where I might spend only a little money and still be happy, and if a Kamigawa sequel is anything like the original, that'll be the case.

Yeah, a Return to Kamigawa block would be easy on my wallet too, as I likely wouldn't buy anything from it.

LOL. In what universe are you guys living in that you don't think WOTC wouldn't use what they've learned in the past 8 years to make a new Kamigawa block super badass? Lord knows the first Mirrodin block did more to harm Kamigawa than anything else forcing them to neuter so many cards and what not.

[Keru_Shiri]

I'm actually pretty pumped that one of the new Planechase decks is Cascade focused. One of my favorite mechanics.

[OnPoint]

LOL. In what universe are you guys living in that you don't think WOTC wouldn't use what they've learned in the past 8 years to make a new Kamigawa block super badass? Lord knows the first Mirrodin block did more to harm Kamigawa than anything else forcing them to neuter so many cards and what not.

I wasn't playing back then, so I wasn't affected by its need to neuter Mirrodin quite as much. Kamigawa as a flavor didn't appeal to me at all. Nothing about it, story or mechanic, was engaging or exciting.

It stands to reason that they wouldn't spend an entire year in Kamigawa and not try to make the most of it (I can hope for a two-set expansion, no? lol), but I'm not sure they can hook me with the same flavor they couldn't before. I guess if the cards are uber-powerful I'll have no choice.

[WanderingWind]

LOL. In what universe are you guys living in that you don't think WOTC wouldn't use what they've learned in the past 8 years to make a new Kamigawa block super badass? Lord knows the first Mirrodin block did more to harm Kamigawa than anything else forcing them to neuter so many cards and what not.

Settle down, killer. Nobody is insulting you, personally.

I just don't care for the flavor of demon ninjas and rat samurais. I wasn't playing during that time period, so I don't know anything about them neutering cards. I'm just not a fan of the flavor or the mechanics they introduced in the block.

[Crocodile]

*Scratches head* I ain't mad, just amused. Most of the complaints I've heard about Kamigawa was that it was "weak" or "too insular" but none of those would be problems under the current regime at WOTC. My fault for making assumptions. If you're not feeling the flavor that's an entirely different matter but that still doesn't stop a hypothetical new block from having great new cards/strategies (i.e. the stuff that matters most).

Plus how is a DEMON NINJA not awesome? Let your inner thirteen year old live a little :P

[zerokoolpsx]

LOL. In what universe are you guys living in that you don't think WOTC wouldn't use what they've learned in the past 8 years to make a new Kamigawa block super badass? Lord knows the first Mirrodin block did more to harm Kamigawa than anything else forcing them to neuter so many cards and what not.

I had just stopped playing as that set came out. Don't really like the mechanics from that block either. It'll save me money in the long run.
A friend of mine is excited about return to Ravinca though. He loves dual color mana cost cards.

[siddx]

Jesus 95% of the decks on friday were human based. Time to bring out some anti human hate next time. Still went to top four undefeated with monogreen before losing to the dude I had just swept in the prior matchup. Ain't that how it always goes. I tried to argue that since I had beat everyone in the top four already and was the only one to beat the eventual winner that I should get all the prize packs... Nobody listened lol

[WanderingWind]

*Scratches head* I ain't mad, just amused. Most of the complaints I've heard about Kamigawa was that it was "weak" or "too insular" but none of those would be problems under the current regime at WOTC. My fault for making assumptions. If you're not feeling the flavor that's an entirely different matter but that still doesn't stop a hypothetical new block from having great new cards/strategies (i.e. the stuff that matters most). Plus how is a DEMON NINJA not awesome? Let your inner thirteen year old live a little :P

To you. Not me.

...and my inner 13 year old is only interested in boobies.

[Hex]

To you. Not me. ...and my inner 13 year old is only interested in boobies.

I stand proud with this man.

[siddx]

To you. Not me. ...and my inner 13 year old is only interested in boobies.

So is my 30 year old self.

I actually loved kamigawas flavor. Espiecally after reading the novels. But the cards did indeed suck for the most part. And I'm biased since it was the first set I came back to after 8 years away. Not because of the set mind you, it just happened to be during kamigawa block.

[OnPoint]

To you. Not me. ...and my inner 13 year old is only interested in boobies.

I... uh...

[y2dvd]

Ah, ok. And the angel works since it has flash. All you need to know is how the stack works so last added to stack resolves first so: step 1: Fiend hunter enters, enter the battlefield effect goes on the stack step 2: Before the ability resolves you blink it so the LTB goes on the stack for fiend 1 step 3: Enter for fiend 2 goes on stack step 4: If that's it then stack starts to resolve so second fiend enter effect goes off goes x creature step 5: Next on the stack was the LTB for fiend 1 which had nothing exiled so it just does nothing step 6: Finally initial exile entering effect of fiend one resolves exiling y creature, since the LTB was already done for fiend 1 it can't come back. You also can't ever also permanently exile the second by doing this, once fiend leaves for any reason, blinking or otherwise, it's released. Hope that explains it clearly.

So you need 2 of the opponent's creatures to make the combo work?