[PantherLotus]

The people saying the hunters argument is silly simply don't know many rural people. I live in a fairly large metropolitan area, but I'm 30 minutes in any direction from seriously armed, seriously xenophobic nutjobs. I'm not saying they'd stop China's Kung Fu Platoon, but I am saying they would run into some very, very serious problems.

You guys have no freaking clue. Just wait till they get to a place like idaho or south dakota. Jesus I feel bad for them even imagining.

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Something to keep in mind: The US Navy has 11 Carrier Groups that are capable of making 7000 air strikes A DAY. The US Navy has more Aircraft Carriers in operation than the rest of the world combined.

That's JUST the navy.

[zoukka]

The people saying the hunters argument is silly simply don't know many rural people.

And you haven't been in the army.

[UFRA]

Ever play Modern Warfare 2?

Apparently, all the enemy has to do is launch a massive attack, and the guys at NORAD will see all these planes on radar and think it's a mistake and laugh it off.

That's all there is to it.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

You should just stick with the sleeping giant metaphor and not go down this path.

HULK SMASH!

[TacticalFox88]

Ever play Modern Warfare 2? Apparently, all the enemy has to do is launch a massive attack, and the guys at NORAD will see all these planes on radar and think it's a mistake and laugh it off. That's all there is to it.

Actually, the Russian Military glitched NORAD so that America would THINK the attack was taking place on the West Coast. NORAD contacted the Air Force bases and they said no Planes were in the sky. The Real Attack was....on the East Coast. Past Europe. Past NATO. Past Great Britain.

Fail isn't even the word.

[DarthWoo]

Something to keep in mind: The US Navy has 11 Carrier Groups that are capable of making 7000 air strikes A DAY. The US Navy has more Aircraft Carriers in operation than the rest of the world combined. That's JUST the navy.

For the sake of argument, don't forget that there are other countries (who would doubtless be on our side anyway, but let's just pretend) that can theoretically sink our carriers with their submarine fleets. If we were facing a real enemy, the carriers would also turn into giant moving targets, with equally giant liability for crippling morale damage for each one lost.

[DarthWoo]

Actually, the Russian Military glitched NORAD so that America would THINK the attack was taking place on the West Coast. NORAD contacted the Air Force bases and they said no Planes were in the sky. The Real Attack was....on the East Coast. Past Europe. Past NATO. Past Great Britain. Fail isn't even the word.

Haven't played the game (due mainly to the PC nerfs) but why exactly does Europe apparently just sit on their hands during this whole invasion?

[Crag Dweller]

The people saying the hunters argument is silly simply don't know many rural people. I live in a fairly large metropolitan area, but I'm 30 minutes in any direction from seriously armed, seriously xenophobic nutjobs. I'm not saying they'd stop China's Kung Fu Platoon, but I am saying they would run into some very, very serious problems. You guys have no freaking clue. Just wait till they get to a place like idaho or south dakota. Jesus I feel bad for them even imagining.

Like I posted earlier, it would never come to the point when civilians would have to defend the country. They would be drafted, trained and integrated into the armed forces with all the speed necessary.

[speculawyer]

Sure . . . but they are not going to last long.

Every country (including the USA) has miles & miles of undefended border. But after you invaded, you'd be in a heap of trouble.

And anyone strong enough to launch a sustained effort (Russia, China, etc.) would be be subject to nukes.

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I don't understand why people are so incredulous as to what irregular and asymmetric capabilities the American populace would be able to undertake against a foreign invader. Poor countries like Iraq and Afghanistan have made incredibly amounts of trouble for the US Military doing exactly what the people of America would do should the country be invaded. Except Americans would have hundreds of times the resources to make trouble for any invading force. It's speculated that there are over 300 million privately owned guns in the USA. Do people seriously think that a populace that well armed, with access to vehicles, explosives, and chemicals wouldn't basically destroy any invading force?

For the sake of argument, don't forget that there are other countries (who would doubtless be on our side anyway, but let's just pretend) that can theoretically sink our carriers with their submarine fleets. If we were facing a real enemy, the carriers would also turn into giant moving targets, with equally giant liability for crippling morale damage for each one lost.

The only way that would be possible would be via submarine. They'd have to deal with the cruiser, two destroyers, and the fleet of other ships that accompany each Carrier Strike Group as well. If the US has more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world combined, you can imagine the difficulty of even attempting an attack on the navy.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

For the sake of argument, don't forget that there are other countries (who would doubtless be on our side anyway, but let's just pretend) that can theoretically sink our carriers with their submarine fleets. If we were facing a real enemy, the carriers would also turn into giant moving targets, with equally giant liability for crippling morale damage for each one lost.

Carrier battle groups have subs in them. Seawolfs, I believe.

Here is a list of current glabl submarine proliferation:

http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/index.html

[Halvie]

vas_a_morir wat? I'm sure that just about every single neighborhood in the U.S. could put up quite a fight. I'm not a big guns guy, never really cared to go to a shooting range or anything but, I do have one in my house.

You should give it a try, and go to a gun range with some friends. Not a hunter at all, but going to gun ranges is fun. I have a couple friends who are into guns (ar-15 and whatnot), and a bunch who aren't at all. Everyone enjoys going to the gun range once in a while with the guys who like guns.

[ConfusingJazz]

Actually, the Russian Military glitched NORAD so that America would THINK the attack was taking place on the West Coast. NORAD contacted the Air Force bases and they said no Planes were in the sky. The Real Attack was....on the East Coast. Past Europe. Past NATO. Past Great Britain. Fail isn't even the word.

Ok, while I agree the idea was stupid, the fastest way to the east coast from Russia doesn't involve Europe, they just go over the top of the map. Granted, that means flying over Canada, but still.

Here is a list of current glabl submarine proliferation:

I know its a typo, but "glabl" made me giggle.

[TacticalFox88]

Haven't played the game (due mainly to the PC nerfs) but why exactly does Europe apparently just sit on their hands during this whole invasion?

Apparently, they withdrew support of NATO after America was blamed for a terrorist attack that happened in Moscow, that WASN'T THEIR FAULT. The Russians took the bait, and attacked, destroying Virgina, Maryland, parts of the South, and effectively destroyed Washington D.C. It's unknown if the President and his Cabinet got out in time before the Russians made it to D.C.

[Mr. B Natural]

Something to keep in mind: The US Navy has 11 Carrier Groups that are capable of making 7000 air strikes A DAY. The US Navy has more Aircraft Carriers in operation than the rest of the world combined. That's JUST the navy.

And it's crap like that that collapses super-powers. Not externally but internally. It happens every time. Wars of attrition is what big beasts can not handle...which is already becoming a trend in modern american history. We always have too many hands in too many cookie jars. We're too invested in everything...either as imperialistic-style endeavors or white-knight martyrs.
I don't look forward to another cheap-shot someday in our near future that will cost us another million dollars a minute...constantly putting our hands in every.

The fact of the matter is that as we start to fall, we will clench harder and harder to our guns, but our guns will do us no good. It's already kinda happening now and has since Vietnam.

[DarthWoo]

Carrier battle groups have subs in them. Seawolfs, I believe. Here is a list of current glabl submarine proliferation: http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/index.html

That still hardly makes them invincible.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

And it's crap like that that collapses super-powers. Not externally but internally. It happens every time. Wars of attrition is what big beasts can not handle...which is already becoming a trend in modern american history. We always have too many hands in too many cookie jars. We're too invested in everything...either as imperialistic-style endeavors or white-knight martyrs. I don't look forward to another cheap-shot someday in our near future that will cost us another million dollars a minute...constantly putting our hands in every. The fact of the matter is that as we start to fall, we will clench harder and harder to our guns, but our guns will do us no good. It's already kinda happening now and has since Vietnam.

Those carrier battel groups are also awesome humanitarian platforms.

[Kinyou]

Actually, the Russian Military glitched NORAD so that America would THINK the attack was taking place on the West Coast. NORAD contacted the Air Force bases and they said no Planes were in the sky. The Real Attack was....on the East Coast. Past Europe. Past NATO. Past Great Britain. Fail isn't even the word.

Duh, europe was obviously destroyed by a huge meteor. It's just not mentioned during the game or in any of the cutscenes to add some tension

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Carrier battle groups have subs in them. Seawolfs, I believe. Here is a list of current glabl submarine proliferation: http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/index.html

There are up to two subs in a carrier strike group. In a wartime situation this would probably be increased.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

That still hardly makes them invincible.

HULK SMASH!!

[zoukka]

I don't understand why people are so incredulous as to what irregular and asymmetric capabilities the American populace would be able to undertake against a foreign invader. Poor countries like Iraq and Afghanistan have made incredibly amounts of trouble for the US Military doing exactly what the people of America would do should the country be invaded. Except Americans would have hundreds of times the resources to make trouble for any invading force. It's speculated that there are over 300 million privately owned guns in the USA. Do people seriously think that a populace that well armed, with access to vehicles, explosives, and chemicals wouldn't basically destroy any invading force?

How long would you think your average american would last sane and functional in some woods, after his hometown is destroyed? Are you saying us westerners would make efficient guerilla fighters without training? The opposing army wouldn't have to raise a finger against the "general populace with uzis laying around". Our mindset is hugely different than of those who are recruited to some radical groups training camps.

Oh and even though the hunters would group up and sustain themselves, the armies superior tactics, gear, training and communication would utterly crush any civilian resistance.

[Phoenix]

Sure . . . but they are not going to last long. Every country (including the USA) has miles & miles of undefended border. But after you invaded, you'd be in a heap of trouble. And anyone strong enough to launch a sustained effort (Russia, China, etc.) would be be subject to nukes.

That's pretty much it. Its certainly possible to land forces on US soil. I don't think anyone,even in the military, believes that impossible. The issue is the "then what".

There is no way you're ever going to move that army very fast, you're going to have to resupply by air (there is a reason I took the air route - it is statistically possible to penetrate by air where there is a very limited chance by sea). Coming "over the top" gives you your best opportunity to land forces by air and avoid the cross-sea carrier ass rape. But even still at best you can drop BMPs and a limited number of T-80s. You can get enough air defense for certain things and you can take some territory, but you sure as hell aren't going to hold a lot of it. You need to do it in a way that you can negotiate keeping it somehow because you'll never be able to hold it militarily.

From the moment you land, your goal is to negotiate some sort of settlement to keep what you have and make it cost an absurd amount to take it back. You would have to be willing to sacrifice millions upon millions of soldiers to pull it off and you would HAVE to do it by air. That's your only option.

[Halvie]

Oh lordy lol

lol at you. Clearly don't understand the number of hunters this country has. Like I posted in the militia thread, WI alone has 800k....800k. One state. How many times the number of troops we have overseas is that?

They aren't going to be shooting down planes, but good fucking luck to any country trying to get through millions of well armed citizens.

gear

what gear are you referring to? Hopefully not guns...

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Duh, europe was obviously destroyed by a huge meteor. It's just not mentioned during the game or in any of the cutscenes to add some tension

I thought Cloud and AVALANCHE took care of the meteor?

[ChiTownBuffalo]

How long would you think your average american would last sane and functional in some woods, after his hometown is destroyed? Are you saying us westerners would make efficient guerilla fighters without training? The opposing army wouldn't have to raise a finger against the "general populace with uzis laying around". Our mindset is hugely different than of those who are recruited to some radical groups training camps. Oh and even though the hunters would group up and sustain themselves, the armies superior tactics, gear, training and communication would utterly crush any civilian resistance.

You are Darryl's father, sir.

[TacticalFox88]

I'd think the best route an invader would have to take is "Destroy everything". Holding it will be useless, so why not just burn and destroy as you go? If you stay in one place, eventually entire division will come after they regroup and utterly assrape you. Their best shot would be just to keep moving as far inland as they can supported by Fighters to at the very least TRY to keep them from regrouping effectively.

[Wazzim]

Something to keep in mind: The US Navy has 11 Carrier Groups that are capable of making 7000 air strikes A DAY. The US Navy has more Aircraft Carriers in operation than the rest of the world combined. That's JUST the navy.

Only reason most governments are friends with the US.

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

How long would you think your average american would last sane and functional in some woods, after his hometown is destroyed? Are you saying us westerners would make efficient guerilla fighters without training? The opposing army wouldn't have to raise a finger against the "general populace with uzis laying around". Our mindset is hugely different than of those who are recruited to some radical groups training camps. Oh and even though the hunters would group up and sustain themselves, the armies superior tactics, gear, training and communication would utterly crush any civilian resistance.

I think you average american town would be organized into a militia within a month. Which is probably less time than it would take to secure the coastal cities in order to bring your main invasion forces across. The National Guard would begin the organizing almost immediately in the case of an invasion.

But other than that, your original supposition is just entirely wrong. The US Military is the best trained, supplied, and armed military in the world, and it had trouble dealing with insurgencies in impoverished countries. You know how to make an American an extremist? Threaten to take away their American freedoms. There will be no lack of motivation.

[BattleMonkey]

Oh and even though the hunters would group up and sustain themselves, the armies superior tactics, gear, training and communication would utterly crush any civilian resistance.

Russians thought the same thing in Afghanistan

[Hari Seldon]

Russians thought the same thing in Afghanistan

People in Afghanistan are hard, not softies with beer guts that get pissed when the internet goes down. It would take training for your average US citizen to become a guerrilla lol.

[Kinyou]

But other than that, your original supposition is just entirely wrong. The US Military is the best trained, supplied, and armed military in the world, and it had trouble dealing with insurgencies in impoverished countries. You know how to make an American an extremist? Threaten to take away their American freedoms. There will be no lack of motivation.

Though I think that the Americans would be very determined I doubt they would strap on suicide bombs.

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Only reason most governments are friends with the US.

Ignorant. Most governments are friends with the US for the massive economic and humanitarian benefits being allies with the US affords them.

[Halvie]

People in Afghanistan are hard, not softies with beer guts that get pissed when the internet goes down. It would take training for your average US citizen to become a guerrilla lol.

Thats nice. There are also around 25 million people in Afghanistan. Add another 10 million and you have the number of hunters in this country. Not everyone is going to have to be fucking Rambo to make an impact.

Though I think that the Americans would be very determined I doubt they would strap on suicide bombs.

Hard to say what people will and will not do without them being in the situation.

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Though I think that the Americans would be very determined I doubt they would strap on suicide bombs.

That's probably because they would know that from a tactical perspective, suicide bombing doesn't really work well. Suicide bombings almost ALWAYS target civilians and police forces, and not military targets.

[Zenith]

Sometimes I wonder. The US is just so effing big that you could push in pretty far before meeting an organised counter-attack, who would then push you just as fast back out.

[BattleMonkey]

People in Afghanistan are hard, not softies with beer guts that get pissed when the internet goes down. It would take training for your average US citizen to become a guerrilla lol.

Never really seen such applied to the average hunter I've known. But as we had discussed in the whole militia thread, people have to get it out of their head that it would be a bunch of good old boys in pickup trucks defending us. With the scale of America it would be a combined militia. Do people seriously believe all of America is just going to lay down and pray to the hunter army to save us? It would take a mad max end of the world like situation for it to go that far that they would be our only hope.

[SpacLock]

A lot of stupid people in this thread.

Step 1: China drills hole through Earth.
Step 2: China jumps through hole.

America occupied.

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

People in Afghanistan are hard, not softies with beer guts that get pissed when the internet goes down. It would take training for your average US citizen to become a guerrilla lol.

Yes, but they are also uneducated, underfed, have inadequate medical facilities and care, etc. They need training to be able to improvise explosives, whereas the average american with a high school diploma would probably be able to do much the same if they really had to. There is not a single person in my acquaintance that does not know how to properly fire a gun (even women, what can I say I grew up in rural america) and they all have access to vehicles. There's just no possible way that the asymmetric and irregular response from American citizens to an invading force would not outclass any we've seen in any modern war.

[zoukka]

what gear are you referring to? Hopefully not guns...

Gear to survive outside your living room.

[IMG]The US Military is the best trained, supplied, and armed military in the world, and it had trouble dealing with insurgencies in impoverished countries.[/IMG]

That's because they operate on civilian area. I though the proposition here was that the civilians were also targeted? Is the US actively killing all residents in the area they are located in?

You know how to make an American an extremist? Threaten to take away their American freedoms. There will be no lack of motivation.

Seeing how individual freedom is slowly being stripped away from us all the time, I don't see this happening. But it's awesome that you think your fellow citizens will become rugged, stoic guerrilla fighters when Dr.Phil stops airing.

There is not a single person in my acquaintance that does not know how to properly fire a gun (even women, what can I say I grew up in rural america) and they all have access to vehicles. There's just no possible way that the asymmetric and irregular response from American citizens to an invading force would not outclass any we've seen in any modern war.

I know many hunters. Good ones, that have great fitness and knowledge of the surrounding areas. And even if I imagine those people matching an attacking army in size, I know they would be crushed in a very short time. You seem to think that a hunter = soldier and a bunch of rednecks gathered together = army.

Without proper training and gear, there wouldn't be any contest.

[Vinci]

A lot of stupid people in this thread. Step 1: China drills hole through Earth. Step 2: China jumps through hole. America occupied.

Only plausible method I've read thus far. Nicely done.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Seeing how individual freedom is slowly being stripped away from us all the time, I don't see this happening. But it's awesome that you think your fellow citizens will become rugged, stoic guerrilla fighters when Dr.Phil stops airing.

Lea Thompson would totally shoot you in the face.

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Gear to survive outside your living room. [IMG]The US Military is the best trained, supplied, and armed military in the world, and it had trouble dealing with insurgencies in impoverished countries.[/IMG] That's because they operate on civilian area. I though the proposition here was that the civilians were also targeted? Is the US actively killing all residents in the area they are located in? Seeing how individual freedom is slowly being stripped away from us all the time, I don't see this happening. But it's awesome that you think your fellow citizens will become rugged, stoic guerrilla fighters when Dr.Phil stops airing.

So you're also saying the invaders are systematically killing all civilians? At the same time questioning whether people will take action? I'm a little confused.

I also don't quite understand why you think no one would have access to shelter and other facilities. Towns and cities are only part of the American landscape. I wouldn't be surprised if suburbs and rural developments accounted for just as much, and they represent FAR too much area to be controlled by an invading force. Most people would probably be sleeping in an existing structure.

[Halvie]

Gear to survive outside your living room.

Hunters aren't familiar with equipment like that?

But it's awesome that you think your fellow citizens will become rugged, stoic guerrilla fighters when Dr.Phil stops airing.

And it is pretty swell you are equating a land invasion to the end of Dr.Phil.

And again...with 30million+ armed people they don't all have to be rambo to have a big impact.

[Mareg]

Hum, I believe Russia could invade all USA with biewtifull nuclear hot fire.
After things would have calmed down, probably they could march right there without much of a resistance.
How many warhead do they have ready to launch ? hundreds ? You don't piss master Putin.

[dalyr95]

I've always wondered who would win in a 2nd American civil war. Just say (bit extreme) the right leaning populace when to war with the Federal govt. due to something something.

Would the military remain loyal to the Feds, would munitinies break out on broad the carrier groups, which branch of the military would be more suspectable to turning and who would they be loyal too

Be like the fall of rome!

[xelios]

Hum, I believe Russia could invade all USA with biewtifull nuclear hot fire. After things would have calmed down, probably they could march right there without much of a resistance. How many warhead do they have ready to launch ? hundreds ? You don't piss master Putin.

Best post of the thread!

PS: DONT DRINK YOUR TAP WATER...UNLESS U WANT TO BE DEAD

[Vinci]

Hum, I believe Russia could invade all USA with biewtifull nuclear hot fire. After things would have calmed down, probably they could march right there without much of a resistance. How many warhead do they have ready to launch ? hundreds ? You don't piss master Putin.

I think the premise of this thread is that someone would invade the United States successfully. Nuclear war is not a very intelligent way to 'win' anything with the States. There would not be anything left of Russia in that case for them to invade the territory with.

[SpectreFire]

I think you average american town would be organized into a militia within a month. Which is probably less time than it would take to secure the coastal cities in order to bring your main invasion forces across. The National Guard would begin the organizing almost immediately in the case of an invasion. But other than that, your original supposition is just entirely wrong. The US Military is the best trained, supplied, and armed military in the world, and it had trouble dealing with insurgencies in impoverished countries. You know how to make an American an extremist? Threaten to take away their American freedoms. There will be no lack of motivation.

But then the background is completely different. Militia fighters in impoverished countries grew up literally in war, poverty and death.

Your run of the mill hunter in the states live in comparative luxury. I'd be more willing to bet if any militias are formed, half of them would shit their pants and run rather than be an effective fighting force.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Hum, I believe Russia could invade all USA with biewtifull nuclear hot fire. After things would have calmed down, probably they could march right there without much of a resistance. How many warhead do they have ready to launch ? hundreds ? You don't piss master Putin.

Mutually Assured Destruction says that Russians marching right on down isn't going to happen.